[Manga] Chapter 476 Discussion

[Ryuken]

Originally Posted by darkmaster074

lol -__-

Here we go again.

[Marcus H.]

I never imagined Danzou has a rape face.

[davie]

Reading the past chapters again, I realize that Naruto was already in a stressful situation; shown in chapter 474 pg 11. I guess when the situation escalated, Naruto just couldn't bear it. Fainting because of it is still a bit absurd but more understandable now.

[SeanQ]

The situation has always been the same...Sasuke being an idiot and Naruto allowing it...it's not until they decided Sasuke wasn't worth all the trouble that Naruto couldn't bear it.

[CMSensei]

Well I guess everything was alittle to stressful for Naruto he couldn't handle it, the more I see Danzou the more I hate him.. I like the way Sai is handling somethings.

[milan kyuubi]

Originally Posted by davie

Reading the past chapters again, I realize that Naruto was already in a stressful situation; shown in chapter 474 pg 11. I guess when the situation escalated, Naruto just couldn't bear it. Fainting because of it is still a bit absurd but more understandable now.

But still he didn't faint when Jiraiya died, or during Pain atack when he tought Kakashi was dead and his vilage destroyed. What happend to him now is simple ridiculous.

[tkdtiger]

I came up with a theory, but I think it might be a bit far fetched... Madara at one point said he needed someone who can control that large statue thing after nagato died, which suggest that he and sasuke do not have that ability and since Nagato is dead and it seems so far he is the only one who has possessed the Rinnegan and that now only leaves the Byakugan...I know it's a crazy theory on who will be able to use that large statue thing, but I thought it would be cool...I doubt it will happen though lol

[ZGoten]

Originally Posted by CMHerrera

Well I guess everything was alittle to stressful for Naruto he couldn't handle it, the more I see Danzou the more I hate him.. I like the way Sai is handling somethings.

I don´t know. Since the last chapter I kinda got to like Danzou. He´s an intelligent person and knows that there will never be peace as long as poeple are allowed to have their own opinions, there´s gotta be someone in the shadows, pulling a few strings.
Either that or you rule by dictation and rob people off their own opinions. Freedom or peace, you can´t have both.

[Luminion Lancer]

Originally Posted by ZGoten

I don´t know. Since the last chapter I kinda got to like Danzou. He´s an intelligent person and knows that there will never be peace as long as poeple are allowed to have their own opinions, there´s gotta be someone in the shadows, pulling a few strings.
Either that or you rule by dictation and rob people off their own opinions. Freedom or peace, you can´t have both.

-That depends on what your definition of "freedom" and "peace" are to begin with. Theoretically speaking, we can achieve peace on a global scale following the very thing Naruto preached to Nagato about; when people truly understand one another, there will be peace (and by and large, freedom as well). The problem lies in the "how" portion of the plan. People are by nature self-preserving or at best, driven to help those they care about. This is also undermined since many countries have their own military and weapons to blow away another. So the possible solution to that could be to unite the world as one but again, how? The easiest method is conquest but that is not the kind of peace to last. You could try forming a sort of "religious" movement to try and pass on your teachings but that will definately clash with other beliefs. So perhaps the question is: How do we get everyone to agree on a set of rules everyone would follow that does not infringe on our basic human rights and freedoms?

[ZGoten]

Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto

-That depends on what your definition of "freedom" and "peace" are to begin with. Theoretically speaking, we can achieve peace on a global scale following the very thing Naruto preached to Nagato about; when people truly understand one another, there will be peace (and by and large, freedom as well). The problem lies in the "how" portion of the plan. People are by nature self-preserving or at best, driven to help those they care about. This is also undermined since many countries have their own military and weapons to blow away another. So the possible solution to that could be to unite the world as one but again, how? The easiest method is conquest but that is not the kind of peace to last. You could try forming a sort of "religious" movement to try and pass on your teachings but that will definately clash with other beliefs. So perhaps the question is: How do we get everyone to agree on a set of rules everyone would follow that does not infringe on our basic human rights and freedoms?

I´ve read quiet some definitions of what peace is, but eventually I came up with my own: "Freedom means to have the authority to directly affect everthing affecting you." About peace I guess the best definition is the simplest. You know, the one even children understand, with people not harming each other.

What Naruto is preaching can only serve peace that doesn´t last long, because in my opinion, agreeing on tolerating something you don´t agree with just stacks even more anger and hate inside, over time. Therefore the only true peace would be to have one common opinion to begin with, and not just accept other opinions. And that is something that cannot be achieved as a free race. May it be because of dictation or the increasingly influencing media.
So we have to choose between freedom and peace.

[james0246]

^Naruto is "preaching" understanding/empathy, not "agreeing" or "tolerating [other's opinions]". Naruto is not looking for peace, so much as he wants to understand just why people desire war, and by understanding the why, possible solutions can be developed ease if not erase the desire for war.

[Luminion Lancer]

Originally Posted by ZGoten

I´ve read quiet some definitions of what peace is, but eventually I came up with my own: "Freedom means to have the authority to directly affect everthing affecting you." About peace I guess the best definition is the simplest. You know, the one even children understand, with people not harming each other.

What Naruto is preaching can only serve peace that doesn´t last long, because in my opinion, agreeing on tolerating something you don´t agree with just stacks even more anger and hate inside, over time. Therefore the only true peace would be to have one common opinion to begin with, and not just accept other opinions. And that is something that cannot be achieved as a free race. May it be because of dictation or the increasingly influencing media. So we have to choose between freedom and peace.

-Of course, I never called Naruto's version of peace through understanding to be eternal. As many of us are aware; nothing made from human hands is everlasting. It is as mortal as we are if it was crafted by our hands and efforts. If anything, Nagato's explaination of the cycle of war and peace was far more accurate and realistic than anything Naruto, Jiraiya and Madara came up with. And like you said, differences of opinion will eventually cause the peace we achieve to be destroyed and freedom taken away when war breaks out. However, there is one small point I feel Kishimoto is eventually going to conclude with this little scenario. Even if "peace" and "freedom" are not meant to last, be they achieved by Naruto, Madara or even Konohamaru's efforts, they must still be achieved so that when conflict does break out again and destroys it, the people caught in it will have someone/something to guide them in order to restore the "peace" and "freedom".

I assume you have heard of the 10 Commandments, the Bible and Jesus Christ? It should be something along those lines. Of course, you might argue that such rules and guides are ineffective as we still have wars, greed, murder and so on but bear with me for a moment. Ineffective or not, the "guidelines" are necessary to give people a sense of direction in life. Because a person's ultimate "freedoms" (the ability to love, hate, forgive, despair and so on), I believe, cannot be "taken away". They are always there.

*Pardon the somewhat over-dramatized lines. I think I have been hit by the Holiday Fist or something.

[ZGoten]

Originally Posted by james0246

^Naruto is "preaching" understanding/empathy, not "agreeing" or "tolerating [other's opinions]". Naruto is not looking for peace, so much as he wants to understand just why people desire war, and by understanding the why, possible solutions can be developed ease if not erase the desire for war.

Isn´t Naruto already dreaming of fulfilling Jiraiya´s wish that someday the time will come when people will "truly understand each other"? If so, he is not only trying to understand why people desire war, but also trying to make people tolerate.
If I understand the manga correctly, Naruto already has the assumed solution to easing the desire for war (making people understand each other) but doesn´t know how to realize it, yet.

Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto

-Of course, I never called Naruto's version of peace through understanding to be eternal. As many of us are aware; nothing made from human hands is everlasting. It is as mortal as we are if it was crafted by our hands and efforts. If anything, Nagato's explaination of the cycle of war and peace was far more accurate and realistic than anything Naruto, Jiraiya and Madara came up with. And like you said, differences of opinion will eventually cause the peace we achieve to be destroyed and freedom taken away when war breaks out. However, there is one small point I feel Kishimoto is eventually going to conclude with this little scenario. Even if "peace" and "freedom" are not meant to last, be they achieved by Naruto, Madara or even Konohamaru's efforts, they must still be achieved so that when conflict does break out again and destroys it, the people caught in it will have someone/something to guide them in order to restore the "peace" and "freedom".

Yeah peace and freedom aren´t eternal. I bet Kishimoto/Naruto will bring that point up someday, probably resulting in a "Let´s make the best out of our time"-mentality.
But speaking of which, haven´t there already been three ninja world wars? So if there was peace in between, what or who are the people in narutoverse going to cling on to, which would guide them through the dark times of the upcomming 4th war? Konoha will probably look up to Shodaime and maybe even Madara, because they ended the war of the clans in the territory which is now known as the land of fire, and started that whole will of fire thing.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Talking about the 4th ninja world war makes me smile. I mean on one side we have all of the ninjas of the world and on the other side we have an old disabled (by that i mean he can't fight, which he admitted) guy who always loses his big battles and an emo boy who mindlessly attacks whoever stands before him. This definitely does not seem like the premise of an epic ninja war

[james0246]

^Tolerating is not the same as understanding/empathy. Tolerating is what you do with Smokers and babies on a plane (or what the various ninja villages do with each other). Naruto (and Jiraiya) seek to erase the ignorace and selfishness and hatred of the world by spreading a philosophy of empathy and understanding.

[ZGoten]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Talking about the 4th ninja world war makes me smile. I mean on one side we have all of the ninjas of the world and on the other side we have an old disabled (by that i mean he can't fight, which he admitted) guy who always loses his big battles and an emo boy who mindlessly attacks whoever stands before him. This definitely does not seem like the premise of an epic ninja war

He also has the bijuus, but still that doesn´t change the overall picture much. Well, maybe the old man knows better how to use those monsters than their former jinchuurikis did, who knows.

Originally Posted by james0246

^Tolerating is not the same as understanding/empathy. Tolerating is what you do with Smokers and babies on a plane (or what the various ninja villages do with each other). Naruto (and Jiraiya) seek to erase the ignorace and selfishness and hatred of the world by spreading a philosophy of empathy and understanding.

Well, one can understand someone but still hate him.
Understanding is, as you know and mentioned, not the ultimate solution, so I don´t think Naruto yearns only for understanding. Understanding is one thing and tolerating is one, but only if you put them together, you have a solid basis for a society. And that´s what has to be achieved in order to ease the desire for war.
/edit: So by saying "understanding" before, I also meant "tolerating".

[Luminion Lancer]

Originally Posted by ZGoten

But speaking of which, haven´t there already been three ninja world wars? So if there was peace in between, what or who are the people in narutoverse going to cling on to, which would guide them through the dark times of the upcomming 4th war? Konoha will probably look up to Shodaime and maybe even Madara, because they ended the war of the clans in the territory which is now known as the land of fire, and started that whole will of fire thing.

-Well I think you just answered your own question there. We do not know when the previous 3 ninja wars happened but we do know that Shodaime Hokage (Hashirama Senju) was the first to propose an end to the fued between the Senju and Uchiha. Not only that, but in doing so they also included various other clans to form Konoha, where it seems many clans joined together for the benefit of a society as a whole rather than just themselves. And from Shodaime to Godaime Hokage, all of them held the belief of protecting the citizens of Konoha and treated them as a part of their own family.

However, it seems they did not intefere or tried to help other villages, instead keeping things under control amongst their own. So while some innocent Amegakure children were being thrown into the fire and whatnot, Konoha was prospering and still maintained their version of "pascifism". Of all of the Konoha ninja, Naruto is about the only one to whom the idea of village allegience does not matter when it comes to helping others. Be they Suna, Kumo and whatever else, he would offer a helping hand. This is probably why he would be the "Hokage to surpass all others".

[Alchemist007]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

I never imagined Danzou has a rape face.

Go figure, it's his regular face too

[AuroraFlash]

Originally Posted by james0246

^Tolerating is not the same as understanding/empathy. Tolerating is what you do with Smokers and babies on a plane (or what the various ninja villages do with each other). Naruto (and Jiraiya) seek to erase the ignorace and selfishness and hatred of the world by spreading a philosophy of empathy and understanding.

Now you've done it. Where is this Naruto? Is he prepared for a beating? Talking about understanding and empathy like a stupid flower child. What about weapons and muscles? Such a coward! All you need is muscles and weapons. That's the combination that makes a strong nation. Look at Kumogakure - muscles and swords.
Who the hell does that Naruto think he is? ^^

You fool, what are you talking about? The world would be a better place without weapons and stupid people like you.
An old song says "all you need is love" and that's true. War and hate are born from a lack of love and understanding. People would not kill each other if they understood each other better and of course if they would approach each other in a more lovely way.

What is this nonsense? Are you stupid? There's no way to please everybody, thus there is no way to reach eternal peace. There will always be beef and the question of authority.

No, there is another way and Naruto will be able to open people's eyes in time and they will understand that the outcome of war is nothing but another war. He will unite the ninja world and bring peace to the world.

Naruto is just a stupid brat. He is in love with Sasuke and only thinks about rescuing Sasuke and we all know why: it's because Sasuke was his first kiss and the first person to "understand" Naruto.

Stupid is as stupid does. There seems to be no way to make you understand anything of what I say. It seems pretty useless to discuss this topic with you and besides, isn't it stupid that you are me?

I guess we have an agreement - for now.

[Frenchie]

Originally Posted by AuroraFlash

Now you've done it. Where is this Naruto? Is he prepared for a beating? Talking about understanding and empathy like a stupid flower child. What about weapons and muscles? Such a coward! All you need is muscles and weapons. That's the combination that makes a strong nation. Look at Kumogakure - muscles and swords.
Who the hell does that Naruto think he is? ^^

You fool, what are you talking about? The world would be a better place without weapons and stupid people like you.
An old song says "all you need is love" and that's true. War and hate are born from a lack of love and understanding. People would not kill each other if they understood each other better and of course if they would approach each other in a more lovely way.

What is this nonsense? Are you stupid? There's no way to please everybody, thus there is no way to reach eternal peace. There will always be beef and the question of authority.

No, there is another way and Naruto will be able to open people's eyes in time and they will understand that the outcome of war is nothing but another war. He will unite the ninja world and bring peace to the world.

Naruto is just a stupid brat. He is in love with Sasuke and only thinks about rescuing Sasuke and we all know why: it's because Sasuke was his first kiss and the first person to "understand" Naruto.

Stupid is as stupid does. There seems to be no way to make you understand anything of what I say. It seems pretty useless to discuss this topic with you and besides, isn't it stupid that you are me?

I guess we have an agreement - for now.

Did you... just talk to yourself?