True Tears - Episode 11 Discussion / Poll

[b0nyb0y]

Mentar, I already saw your previous post that it might be the last post about this symbolism thing. So there's no need to response to this if you don't want to. I just wrote too much about this and feels that it's a waste to throw away. So I guess I'll just put them down in case someone will find it useful.

Originally Posted by Mentar

2) If Jibeta is indeed Shin-Hiromi, why is it Noe who is trying so hard to understand her? Why is it Noe who decides to release Jibeta from the coop while at the same time planning to break away from her current hurt and pain? Why did she sleep with Jibeta to begin with?

For this I think I already said it previously: Noe tried her best to understand why Shin went out with her when he's really in love with Hiromi. It's perfectly understandable for us why he ended up the way he is now, as we get to see the whole situation. But it isn't so for Noe, as she stayed oblivious to the chaos surrounding Shin most of the time.

And about releasing Jibeta, even before Shin gets to show the story book to her, I believe Noe kind of knows already that it'll have a bad ending. That is, even though she couldn't really see the whole picture (inside the book) or the whole situation (in real life) yet, at least she knows for sure that Shin now faces with two choices: it's either her or Hiromi. In the end, Noe just made up her mind that it's best to let Shin's feelings for Hiromi (Jibeta) fly, as Shin's feelings for her (Raigomaru) doesn't have enough strength to reach the goal. She always wants Shin to look at the sky, always believes that he's able to fly, and wants him to be happy. That's why Noe wants to chime in and help Shin revise the story (and correct his real situation).

In short, I don't think there's anything wrong with that at all. By that time she said she'll let it fly, and that she wants to get away from it all, she has her feelings resolved. That's the very reason why I use the word "decided" back in the previous post; she's made up her mind. There's no need for any more answers, no need for more clarification, as the action she needs to take is now clear -- she wants to break up with Shin.

And about Noe sleeping in a coop with Jibeta, we need to remember that this isn't the first time she did so. Back in ep. 8, she was hugging Jibeta (note that she wasn't only staying with it, but actually hugging it while taking her nap) inside the coop. When Shin came and asked why she did so, she said that Jibeta seemed to be cold.

So, if Jibeta == Noe, and Noe was very happy at that moment (as she just got a confession from Shin), why the cold, and why the need for a hug, or why must it be a hug from Noe to Jibeta (when it's herself that is Jibeta)? On the other hand, ep. 8 seems to focus on Hiromi's loneliness, as well as Hiromi's bad dream about Shin and Noe about to kiss each other. So if we interpret Jibeta getting cold == Shin's feeling for Hitomi being ignored or forgotten by Shin himself, it seems fitting once again...

[relentlessflame]

Heh -- I'm definitely with Guardian Enzo -- "Most posts about chickens ever." But what the heck...

I think you (as in, "you all") have to be careful not to take a too-granual view of the metaphor being told through the story. Keep in mind, Shinichirou is not a real writer -- his story was scripted by the anime writers as a metaphor for the larger story. It's a seperate but parallel thread that's tied to the way the story's going to end. It's roughly aligned with the rest of the plot developments because that fits the flow of the episodes and story. And because it's designed to lead somewhere, and be understood as a "whole" when it's done (again, because the anime writers wrote it, and not Shinichirou), the story will absolutely be coherent in the end and deliver a clear moral. This is why I find it extremely unlikely that "both chickens represent Shinichirou's romantic interest in one of the characters" -- that's being extremely literal in something that's extremely broad and symbolic. Especially when you keep in mind that a number of the scenes we saw in episode 11 are from a fake ending to the story which, truth be told, has at least as much to do with foreshadowing the end of episode 11/setup for episode 12 as anything else.

This is going to sound on the surface like the biggest cop-out answer in the history of cop-out answers, but I think the reality about Jibeta is much, much simpler: Jibeta represents the one who can't fly. At the beginning of the show, Shinichirou saw Hiromi as someone who couldn't fly, which is why he felt he needed to release her tears. Noe never seemed to care about Jibeta since she couldn't fly, and lavished all her attention on Raigomaru, but that was a point of view Shinichirou never quite understood. This was a way of Noe saying "don't waste your time on Hiromi, because she'll only bring you down", and Shinichirou saying "no, if I can fly/in order to fly, I need to find a way to help her do the same". But now that Shinichirou's allowed Hiromi to fly, we see the flipside/irony: the one who can't fly now is actually Noe. In fact, one might say, Noe not being able to fly has always been the issue. The one Shinichirou needs to save now is Noe. Again, symbolically referenced in the "crash-and-burn" fake ending and the ending of the episode (including the preview), the point being that he re-wrote it. It's no surprise now that Noe is trying to help Jibeta fly at this point, but of course she can't yet fly herself. Noe is changing -- through her sadness, she's beginning to unlock her feelings and feel sympathy (in this case, for Jibeta); that's the gift that Shinichirou gave/is giving her. He's unlocking her tears as well.

So, rather than saying that Jibeta represents one girl or the other, or Shinichirou's feelings towards one or the other, I think Jibeta is more of an abstract persona that drives the plot. If Raigomaru can fly, then Jibeta can't, and when Raigomaru won't fly, Jibeta will. In the end, the story isn't about Jibeta, it's about Raigomaru and his own quest to fly. In the end, it's the way the plot plays out that delivers the symbolic meaning of the overall story which, as Mentar pointed out above, is sure to tie things back to the current situation with Noe. And, in the end, the story will help Noe understand Shinichirou's feelings, and it's safe to say that because that's what the anime writers (who really penned the Raigomaru story) intended. And it's also extremely safe to say that, as Noe has said since the very beginning, Raigomaru can and will fly. As much as the show's been trying to pretend that the issue is "who will he fly for" (that's a massive red herring, just like the whole idea that who Shinichirou loves has ever been at issue), the real issue is "what will cause/allow him to finally take off". This is what key statements like "You can fly, just not from here" are all about.

Finally, and again, you need to remember that the "crash-and-burn ending" is false. If you are intended to argue that Jibeta flying and then crashing scenes somehow represent his feelings for Hiromi, then you'd have to assume that Shinichirou has any doubts whatsoever that his relationship with Hiromi will work out. He doesn't. If you misread those scenes as some sort of "lingering doubt", you're falling for a big trap by again being too-granular. He simply understands that he needs to work things through with Noe first in order to "do everything properly". Don't lose sight of the big picture and the show's overall message, or keep assuming that "any moment now, the other shoe may drop". It won't.

Of course, that's an opinion, time will tell, and so on...

[b0nyb0y]

Originally Posted by Mentar

3) Stipulating for discussion's sake that Jibeta is indeed Shin-Hiromi, it would have meant to fail. In other words, Shin should have tried hard to fly in ep11 (he didn't, he was just drifting along doing nothing), and Shin-Hiromi should have taken serious or even fatal damage (Jibeta crashed). I don't see this either, to be honest.

As an addition from what jaisrh said previously. Here's what I want to say more about the matter...

The thing is, if Noe getting hurt == Jibeta crashed, then Jibeta's crash should already happened since ep. 9 (right at the same time when she told Shin that he can fly, he just doesn't know he could). Yet why prolong it only to show it only in ep. 11 (and not earlier)? It just doesn't make much sense from screenwriting point of view, as it doesn't work effectively as a plot device. And even yet, why even bother dissecting one single crash into 3, and craftfully match it with the letdowns Shin faced when he was trying to reach out to Hiromi (if it's suppose to be about Noe)?

As much as I like to agree with you (as I was probably one of the first people who suggested that Jibeta == Noe a couple of pages ago), how they arranged the scenes between Shin's letdowns (regarding Hiromi) to match with the situations of Jibeta is too much to be a coincidence.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by b0nyb0y

The thing is, if Noe getting hurt == Jibeta crashed, then Jibeta's crash should already happened since ep. 9 (right at the same time when she told Shin that he can fly, he just doesn't know he could). Yet why prolong it only to show it only in ep. 11 (and not earlier)?

Fairly simple: The "crash" occurred right after Shin for the first time actually DID something by rushing after Hiromi (very end of ep10). He didn't really "fly" yet because he obviously didn't really confess to her and still keeps this strangely ambivalent distance. But at this moment, his relationship with Noe took a nosedive. In my reading, Jibeta crashed.

And even yet, why even bother dissecting one single crash into 3, and craftfully match it with the letdowns Shin faced when he was trying to reach out to Hiromi (if it's suppose to be about Noe)?

In my understanding, because it dawned on Shin that his eyes were not on his girlfriend Noe, but rather on Hiromi. He was feeling jealousy about Jun's efforts with Hiromi, even though he should not have. He couldn't leave things as they are.

If you rewatch the real KEY scene, in which Jibeta was shown splattered on the ground, it was NOT right after he saw Hiromi walk away from Jun, rather there was a time break. First, it's suddenly dark again, and we hear Shin working on his book. THEN we see Jibeta's demise. Shin bitterly deplores Raigomaru's cowardice, with exactly the same tone he deplored his own inability to set things right before (obvious parallel). Rather, someone else (Jibeta) made the plunge. And thinking about Jibeta, he thinks about Noe, and what she will think of this sucky ending.

This is my point: Raimogaru's and Jibeta's story is about Shin and Noe, NOT about Hiromi. It started with these two, and it will end with these two. Hiromi didn't even know this story exists at all, until Jibeta has "flown".

[golthin]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Fairly simple: The "crash" occurred right after Shin for the first time actually DID something by rushing after Hiromi (very end of ep10). He didn't really "fly" yet because he obviously didn't really confess to her and still keeps this strangely ambivalent distance. But at this moment, his relationship with Noe took a nosedive. In my reading, Jibeta crashed.



In my understanding, because it dawned on Shin that his eyes were not on his girlfriend Noe, but rather on Hiromi. He was feeling jealousy about Jun's efforts with Hiromi, even though he should not have. He couldn't leave things as they are.

If you rewatch the real KEY scene, in which Jibeta was shown splattered on the ground, it was NOT right after he saw Hiromi walk away from Jun, rather there was a time break. First, it's suddenly dark again, and we hear Shin working on his book. THEN we see Jibeta's demise. Shin bitterly deplores Raigomaru's cowardice, with exactly the same tone he deplored his own inability to set things right before (obvious parallel). Rather, someone else (Jibeta) made the plunge. And thinking about Jibeta, he thinks about Noe, and what she will think of this sucky ending.

This is my point: Raimogaru's and Jibeta's story is about Shin and Noe, NOT about Hiromi. It started with these two, and it will end with these two. Hiromi didn't even know this story exists at all, until Jibeta has "flown".

And the chicken metaphors keep going and going and going !

[ani_d]

LOL who here brought up the chicken symbolisms anyway?

I wouldn't want to burn more brain cells anymore on the chickens because all we have are speculations that can go either way. Let the remaining episodes tell us what it is. But then again, I kinda enjoy reading both sides of your debates haha Please do continue.

[golthin]

Originally Posted by ani_d

LOL who here brought up the chicken symbolisms anyway?

I wouldn't want to burn more brain cells anymore on the chickens because all we have are speculations that can go either way. Let the remaining episodes tell us what it is. But then again, I kinda enjoy reading both sides of your debates haha Please do continue.

i read a few of those chicken analysis and now I just skip as soon as I see people talking about chickens.

[DragoonKain3]

What I would give to have the animators show the cast eating KFC at the end of the final episode.

And yes, I meant that in more ways than one.


Seriously speaking, the story books and what they symbolize is as big a device in this series as it is in another currently running romance series. I've been trying to figure out what they meant, as I know they can be used to deduce what a character feels and to a lesser extent, what's going to happen in the future. It's only until this episode it's been all clear to me what it means, but sadly didn't prove to be any help in predictions. ^^;

[b0nyb0y]

Since we're agree to disagree, I just want to add in my final bit about this.

Originally Posted by Mentar

This is my point: Raimogaru's and Jibeta's story is about Shin and Noe, NOT about Hiromi. It started with these two, and it will end with these two. Hiromi didn't even know this story exists at all, until Jibeta has "flown".

To me, "Raigomaru and Jibeta" story portrays Shin's struggle between competing feelings he has. So, in this sense, it isn't directly related to either Hiromi or Noe at all. And because this story book (as well as Shin's other story books) is driven by Shin's "imagination of my true heart", it's a reflection of Shin's unconscious thoughts and feelings. It shows his current state of mind, as well as what he anticipates in the near future. So, to me, the story is always about Shin himself.

[be0wulf]

This anime series has forever changed my views on poultry.

I'll never look at a McChicken sandwich the same way again.

After all, there's always the possibility that it may fly.

[b0nyb0y]

Originally Posted by be0wulf

This anime series has forever changed my views on poultry.

I'll never look at a McChicken sandwich the same way again.

After all, there's always the possibility that it may fly.

Just learn how to draw and to live/speak with chickens and you're more than ready to become a real True Tears fan.

[destiny4everlove]

I know I'm a little late, but here is my personal review of this episode:

Spoiler for POV Ep. 11:

Episode 11: We started this episode with Hiromi and Shin. I enjoyed seeing Hiromi loving snow again and Shinichiro remembering Noe while being with Hiromi. Now about the scene that happened in minute 5:19, I must say that I wasn't expecting that scene to take place in this episode. I was really surprised by it. I'm not a big Hiromi fan, but I did like Hiromi a little more for doing that. Aiko did it, and now Hiromi has done it too, I wonder if Noe will do that too. I'm glad that Aiko and Nobuse are friends again. I truly think they both deserve to be happy, so I'm rooting for them to end up together as a couple by the end of the series. About Shin's picture book, I hope that what we saw in this episode is not the real end of Raigomaru and Jibeta's story; it was so sad. As usual, there was another misunderstanding between Hiromi and Shinichiro in this episode, but what's new about that in their relationship? Another thing that I enjoyed in this episode is how Shin went looking for Noe; but I didn't enjoy seeing Noe that sad very much. Poor Noe! Last but not least, my favorite scene in this episode was the very last one, I'm referring to the one in which Noe was facing the ocean with Jibeta in her arms while Shin was in the back.

I cannot wait to see Shin dancing during the festival, but at the same time I feel sad because seeing him dance means this series is one step closer to the end.

[Theowne]

My thoughts on Ep11....

Further: The kiss scene was surprisingly anti-climactic, especially if one believes that this is the main relationship of the story. I found it unusual for it to be so short and without much effect, a few episodes prior to the final episode. After such an event, which is usually the staple of these kind of shows, the balance still wasn't really tipped to the extreme in any direction. There was a slight positive response on Shin's end, but it really didn't stand out as an important development of any kind. So Noe is the only character Shin has yet to kiss. I wonder if there is leeway in how the series can end. The general tone of the episode suggests she doesn't, but still.......Well, this is another series that looks like I will develop an attachment to one character/relationship and then have to deal with an ending that favours another (another KGNE).

I'm still lukewarm about Hiromi or the Shin-Hiromi relationship and that's just a personal reaction. I'm a bit surprised by how little Hiromi thinks of Noe consider she and Shin were together a few episodes ago. Hiromi isn't aware of any break-up between them and so is unsure of the current status of their relationship, and yet doesn't seem to think about it too much when with Shin (or kissing him), and especially with very little concern at the end when Noe goes m issing (yes I know it stresses her...). Combined with her somewhat cold behavior during the "everyone at the chicken coop" towards Noe a few episodes ago, I suppose this just adds to my lukewarm response to her character.

I'm a tad disappointed that the writers had to resort again to the "misunderstanding" plot device for tension....any issue regarding Jun+Hiromi could have been resolved easily in Shin's case, but the writers preferred to have Hiromi leave silently without clearing it up and then have Shin see them together later as well. It seems like a silly thing and I can't see why Hiromi couldn't just clear it up when they were in that room, I can't think of anything bad that would have come off of it...

At this point I'll be very optimistic about Shin+Noe and take the opinion that his thoughts of her during the beach scene might be a case of "You don't realize the value of something until it's gone" and that there may be a chance the series will end with it, I definitely admit it's a stretch, though. Clearly the entire series revolves around Shin and Hiromi being very fixated on the other for a long time but I still think the most genuine relationship is with Noe...

I'll leave the chicken analysis to the rest of you....

P.S. If it's one thing I'm surprised about, it's how the whole Siscon thing is being described by forumites with such ease...I guess Koi Kaze has left it's imprint around here. ^_^

[ani_d]

Originally Posted by Theowne

My thoughts on Ep11....

I'm a bit surprised by how little Hiromi thinks of Noe consider she and Shin were together a few episodes ago. Hiromi isn't aware of any break-up between them and so is unsure of the current status of their relationship, and yet doesn't seem to think about it too much when with Shin (or kissing him), and especially with little concern at the end when Noe goes m issing (yes I know it stresses her...). Combined with her somewhat cold behavior during the "everyone at the chicken coop" towards Noe a few episodes ago, I suppose this just adds to my lukewarm response to her character.

Wow. So glad to know I wasn't the only who felt this way about Hiromi's attitude. -_- Noe had her moments too (the cat fight and all), but that didn't stop her from pushing Shin to Hiromi.

I think the one who has the more right to 'hate' here is Noe actually, but you don't see her cursing Hiromi dead. She's actually more complacent. I don't think the excuse that Hiromi is made to be 'more human' and Noe is the 'mary sue' character is gonna be enough. Noe is actually on the shorter side of the deal here and if they're even gonna make her cry 'true tears', then I think that's just overkill. It doesn't do her justice. I would like it better if the collected tears Noe's supposed to decorate her "sparkling tree of tears" are tears of joy. I think that's the only way to do her character some justice here Noe love. <3

[Theowne]

don't think the excuse that Hiromi is made to be 'more human' and Noe is the 'mary sue' character is gonna be enough.

Mary-sue, really? I'm surprised people think that...I mean, she doesn't seem very popular at all, doesn't seem to have many friends, she talks to chickens, doesn't seem to be the envy of the boys......Somehow, it's not the kind of image I get when hearing "Mary-sue".

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by ani_d

...if they're even gonna make her cry 'true tears', then I think that's just overkill. It doesn't do her justice. I would like it better if the collected tears Noe's supposed to decorate her "sparkling tree of tears" are tears of joy. I think that's the only way to do her character some justice here Noe love. <3

Well, the tears that Noe needs to shed are the ones are the ones she held back when her beloved grandmother died (and then later when Raigomaru died). Crying tears of joy won't resolve the central issue. One way or another, she needs to learn to grieve properly; to release the sadness she's kept bottled up inside for so long. So, I think "tears of joy" would break the metaphor, regardless of how the romantic things work out. Having her cry "true tears" is giving her justice -- it's finally setting her free (just as we saw with Hiromi). That's what the tears mean (IMO, of course).

[be0wulf]

Originally Posted by Theowne

P.S. If it's one thing I'm surprised about, it's how the whole Siscon thing is being described by forumites with such ease...I guess Koi Kaze has left it's imprint around here. ^_^

Considering Myself;Yourself aired not too long ago...

And Koi Kaze was different. The siblings had a ~10 year difference in age.

[Theowne]

I don't know much about this "Myself, Yourself". If I recall though, the brother-sister aspect of Koi Kaze was the most "controversial" when discussed...Are Noe & Jun blood related or is there adoption involved? I recall reading on some blog or other that it is not a blood relation.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Theowne

Are Noe & Jun blood related or is there adoption involved? I recall reading on some blog or other that it is not a blood relation.

They haven't said, but Jun made a comment that seemed to suggest that they may not be (he denied that he and Noe look alike). I imagine this will be clarified in the upcoming episode.

[FuzzyWuzzy]

You know the person who is doing things properly? Even though shin is the one that said it, it is Hiromi that is doing things properly- taking control of her life, her actions, and creating/solving relationship issues she has with the people around her like jun, shin's mom and shin also. She is trying her best to create a world she can be happy with.