[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Judoh]

Well I guess this is more about preference then. With a bomb or a boiler explosion the climax sound like it could be exciting if you wrote it right. Then again it could also be explained with natural disasters like lightning too.

To me poison just seems like a cop out answer for the riddle because all you have to do for that is not eat the poison. And it doesn't explain the missing people for me. If the answer to the riddle was poison that would just be too obvious. I wouldn't want to read an ending like that. Sounds like an anticlimax for me.

But any way I guess we'll just have to see.

[Smeckledorf]

The only riddle that needs to be solved in bomb mysteries is.... where is the bomb? Bombs don't kill people, bombs kill mysteries. To me, the epic part of Umineko was the intricacy of the locked rooms and why the culprit does it and why doesn't the culprit live? But the solution to those two in opposite order would be there is a bomb and why do you care, there is a bomb that will destroy said rooms anyways? If mysteries were humans then bombs are vampires.

[Tyabann]

Umineko is not a bomb mystery.

It's not just "where the bomb is" it's also "why was the bomb set?" (We can probably assume that the bomb is a part of the epitaph, the tenth twilight.)

For example, if there is a mastermind behind all of this, and they're on the island, why would they intentionally kill themselves? A contingency plan, maybe?

Frankly, I don't think a bomb "kills" the mystery at all. I think it adds an even greater level of complexity to all of this.

[Smeckledorf]

Nope, why don't you tell me what your first question would be if you knew there was a bomb in your house? That is a rhetorical question, it would be "Where is the bomb?" Why is there a bomb becomes a very irrelevant question when your life is at stake. Beatrice displays pride in the locked rooms presented so the bomb would destroy that and what the series originally was. Now if there is actually a bomb episode 8 will be everyone running around like chickens with their heads cut off screaming "WHERE IS THE BOMB?!" Not worth my time. Bomb mysteries are on the bottom level of the totem pole of mysteries. The greatness of Umineko to me was who is the culprit? That becomes almost completely irrelevant when a bomb will kill everyone anyways. If poison was the reason Battler died in episode 4, a whole new world of questions opens up to us. Bombs just close books. The solutions to bombs are so limited. It will either be run and take cover or let's sit here with everyone alive until someone disables it. Frankly, I could care less to know who would set up a bomb in Umineko.
Now for my bomb theory, the US bombs Rokkenjima and we were given hints to such beforehand. With all the demons and such around we should have known the devil was involved in Umineko, and who was the president back in 1986? That's right Ronald Reagan, and how many letters are in each of his 3 names? 6. 666, Ronald Reagan bombed Rokkenjima mystery solved.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Smeckledorf

Nope, why don't you tell me what your first question would be if you knew there was a bomb in your house? That is a rhetorical question, it would be "Where is the bomb?" Why is there a bomb becomes a very irrelevant question when your life is at stake.

No that's wrong. The first question would be "how do you know?" and then the person would proceed to show you the bomb he found in your basement. I mean if you know a bomb exists you aren't going to look for it. You either already know where it is becuase somebody told you or if you don't you hide somewhere that's safe like the Kuwadorian.

See? you don't even need a mystery about the bomb. So the mystery of the culprit can be completely irrelevant to it. Like Kaisos Erranon said it just adds complexity to the story. Your assuming every variable or theory has to be related to the mystery, but what the bomb turns Umineko into is a mystery thriller.

The bomb doesn't have to be used to kill everyone in the story or to destroy close rooms. It can be something that happens at the very end. It can be the reason the case is never solved because it destroys all the evidence.

If you look at it that way it's not the answer to the mystery it's the reason there IS a mystery in the first place.

[LyricalAura]

Between Episode 6 and the discussion about the three rules so far, I think I've finally got a solid theory about them that explains all of the comments Bernkastel made in her letter. Some of it's been said already, but I want to emphasize where it lines up with Bern's ideas.

Spoiler for Rule X:

Rule X: Something that is like "the game that always starts on June 20th." Looking at the Hinamizawa game, this is two days before the Hinamizawa Disaster, meaning it's already too late to make any moves to prevent it. Lambdadelta also told Bern that she absolutely cannot win because of this rule. So, there should be an element on the Rokkenjima board that is already unstoppable at the opening of the game and severely limits Bernkastel's access to a victory condition. An explosion from a pre-set bomb always kills the survivors at midnight on October 5th. This happens even if the culprit is caught or killed. It also creates the overall Rokkenjima cat box that allows Beatrice to exist, which is why Bern calls it "the core of the Witch Beatrice," and why Beato refers to the midnight event as her "heart" in Episode 4.

Spoiler for Rule Y:

Rule Y: A new magic system which constitutes the existence of the witch Beatrice, and which Lambdadelta already has a small amount of experience with. According to Featherine, the identity of the witch Beatrice is really "an environment in which it's possible that Beatrice exists," which one or more people on the game board created over a period of years through a combination of rumors, lies, and pranks. Beato became able to exist in situations where there was no observer because the environment caused people to think she could exist there, which in turn created fantasy kakera where she actually did exist.

Lambda did something similar in the Hinamizawa game when her piece Takano created the illusion that she had risen from the dead as Oyashiro-sama's messenger prior to the Hinamizawa Disaster. In that case, the illusion was imperfect because evidence was available that it was a lie. Beato's illusions are on another level because they make use of the Endless Magic: they take place on unobserved regions of the game board and are therefore totally unfalsifiable.

Spoiler for Rule Z:

Rule Z: A maze-like existence which generates phenomena not explained by the first two rules. Treating the sequence of events in the game like a maze, Bernkastel's power normally allows her to completely explore it and determine what results each action will have, but on this board, something causes the maze to change shape flexibly and makes Bern's mapping useless.

The element that appears to vary totally at random is the fantasy murder "plot" carried about by some of the people on the island prior to the discovery of real murders. This encompasses the letters from Beatrice, the scorpion charm and bloody handprints in Episode 1, the locked chapel illusion in Episode 2, the locked room ring in Episode 3, the phone calls in Episode 4, and the faked deaths in Episode 5, among other phenomena. The details of the plot are probably only limited by the imagination of the people that created it, meaning that an effectively infinite number of event sequences can occur in the leadup to the murders; the only constant is that Maria is always the catalyst that kicks everything off, when she supposedly meets a mysterious person in the rose garden. Since the plots always contain elements from Maria's notebook, there's even a possibility that she had a hand in the writing herself.

That would make Rule Z something like, someone, possibly Maria, writes one of infinitely many possible stories, which is then acted out on the island. However, because Bern doesn't know the nature of this rule, she can't tell the events caused by it from the ones caused by Rules X and Y, which is why she was fooled by the faked deaths in Episode 5. In general, until she figures it out, the board should look like an incomprehensible shifting maze to her because the important events will be concealed under a cloud of random noise.

[Smeckledorf]

Originally Posted by Judoh

No that's wrong. The first question would be "how do you know?" and then the person would proceed to show you the bomb he found in your basement. Then you call the bomb squad.

See? you don't even need a mystery for a bomb. So the mystery of the culprit can be completely irrelevant to it. Like Kaisos Erranon said it just adds complexity to the story. Your assuming every variable or theory has to be related to the mystery, but what the bomb turns Umineko into is a mystery thriller.

... So you would gamble on its existence with your stake being your life? Doesn't sound like a smart idea. A bomb adds no complexity but as I have stated before subtracts from the total complexity and intricacy by a large amount. I don't go to a math class for a history lesson, let's leave thrillers to the Die Hard series.
My reasoning for the bomb subtracting from the total complexity goes as such, people were said in the 1998 world to have interest in the mystery meaning it was intriguing and worth of intellectual prowess not that a bomb destroyed all of the evidence. If it does mean a bomb destroyed all of the evidence then that makes the mystery less intriguing. Also, the question of why the culprit rarely survived was such a great one it brought for the immense probability that there is more than one culprit but with a bomb it just becomes eh there's a bomb. The tip letter from Beatrice was why closed rooms are so beautiful and not bombs are awesome. Now missing people could just be assumed dead and there wouldn't be much evidence to the contrary but missing people on an island without a fire would mean something interesting has happened.

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Between Episode 6 and the discussion about the three rules so far, I think I've finally got a solid theory about them that explains all of the comments Bernkastel made in her letter. Some of it's been said already, but I want to emphasize where it lines up with Bern's ideas.

Spoiler for Rule X:

Rule X: Something that is like "the game that always starts on June 20th." Looking at the Hinamizawa game, this is two days before the Hinamizawa Disaster, meaning it's already too late to make any moves to prevent it. Lambdadelta also told Bern that she absolutely cannot win because of this rule. So, there should be an element on the Rokkenjima board that is already unstoppable at the opening of the game and severely limits Bernkastel's access to a victory condition. An explosion from a pre-set bomb always kills the survivors at midnight on October 5th. This happens even if the culprit is caught or killed. It also creates the overall Rokkenjima cat box that allows Beatrice to exist, which is why Bern calls it "the core of the Witch Beatrice," and why Beato refers to the midnight event as her "heart" in Episode 4.

Spoiler for Rule Y:

Rule Y: A new magic system which constitutes the existence of the witch Beatrice, and which Lambdadelta already has a small amount of experience with. According to Featherine, the identity of the witch Beatrice is really "an environment in which it's possible that Beatrice exists," which one or more people on the game board created over a period of years through a combination of rumors, lies, and pranks. Beato became able to exist in situations where there was no observer because the environment caused people to think she could exist there, which in turn created fantasy kakera where she actually did exist.

Lambda did something similar in the Hinamizawa game when her piece Takano created the illusion that she had risen from the dead as Oyashiro-sama's messenger prior to the Hinamizawa Disaster. In that case, the illusion was imperfect because evidence was available that it was a lie. Beato's illusions are on another level because they make use of the Endless Magic: they take place on unobserved regions of the game board and are therefore totally unfalsifiable.

Spoiler for Rule Z:

Rule Z: A maze-like existence which generates phenomena not explained by the first two rules. Treating the sequence of events in the game like a maze, Bernkastel's power normally allows her to completely explore it and determine what results each action will have, but on this board, something causes the maze to change shape flexibly and makes Bern's mapping useless.

The element that appears to vary totally at random is the fantasy murder "plot" carried about by some of the people on the island prior to the discovery of real murders. This encompasses the letters from Beatrice, the scorpion charm and bloody handprints in Episode 1, the locked chapel illusion in Episode 2, the locked room ring in Episode 3, the phone calls in Episode 4, and the faked deaths in Episode 5, among other phenomena. The details of the plot are probably only limited by the imagination of the people that created it, meaning that an effectively infinite number of event sequences can occur in the leadup to the murders; the only constant is that Maria is always the catalyst that kicks everything off, when she supposedly meets a mysterious person in the rose garden. Since the plots always contain elements from Maria's notebook, there's even a possibility that she had a hand in the writing herself.

That would make Rule Z something like, someone, possibly Maria, writes one of infinitely many possible stories, which is then acted out on the island. However, because Bern doesn't know the nature of this rule, she can't tell the events caused by it from the ones caused by Rules X and Y, which is why she was fooled by the faked deaths in Episode 5. In general, until she figures it out, the board should look like an incomprehensible shifting maze to her because the important events will be concealed under a cloud of random noise.

Something is off about your rules, there needs to be an event that will almost definitely cause a specific person to murder another before the bomb not left up to randomness because of the usage of red truth to restrict possibilities in all games. That is just my opinion though. Also, the letters were said to not be in Maria's handwriting.

[Judoh]

It think you need to reread my post I edited it a few times and made quite a few good points.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Between Episode 6 and the discussion about the three rules so far, I think I've finally got a solid theory about them that explains all of the comments Bernkastel made in her letter. Some of it's been said already, but I want to emphasize where it lines up with Bern's ideas.

Spoiler for Rule X:

Rule X: Something that is like "the game that always starts on June 20th." Looking at the Hinamizawa game, this is two days before the Hinamizawa Disaster, meaning it's already too late to make any moves to prevent it. Lambdadelta also told Bern that she absolutely cannot win because of this rule. So, there should be an element on the Rokkenjima board that is already unstoppable at the opening of the game and severely limits Bernkastel's access to a victory condition. An explosion from a pre-set bomb always kills the survivors at midnight on October 5th. This happens even if the culprit is caught or killed. It also creates the overall Rokkenjima cat box that allows Beatrice to exist, which is why Bern calls it "the core of the Witch Beatrice," and why Beato refers to the midnight event as her "heart" in Episode 4.

Spoiler for Rule Y:

Rule Y: A new magic system which constitutes the existence of the witch Beatrice, and which Lambdadelta already has a small amount of experience with. According to Featherine, the identity of the witch Beatrice is really "an environment in which it's possible that Beatrice exists," which one or more people on the game board created over a period of years through a combination of rumors, lies, and pranks. Beato became able to exist in situations where there was no observer because the environment caused people to think she could exist there, which in turn created fantasy kakera where she actually did exist.

Lambda did something similar in the Hinamizawa game when her piece Takano created the illusion that she had risen from the dead as Oyashiro-sama's messenger prior to the Hinamizawa Disaster. In that case, the illusion was imperfect because evidence was available that it was a lie. Beato's illusions are on another level because they make use of the Endless Magic: they take place on unobserved regions of the game board and are therefore totally unfalsifiable.

Spoiler for Rule Z:

Rule Z: A maze-like existence which generates phenomena not explained by the first two rules. Treating the sequence of events in the game like a maze, Bernkastel's power normally allows her to completely explore it and determine what results each action will have, but on this board, something causes the maze to change shape flexibly and makes Bern's mapping useless.

The element that appears to vary totally at random is the fantasy murder "plot" carried about by some of the people on the island prior to the discovery of real murders. This encompasses the letters from Beatrice, the scorpion charm and bloody handprints in Episode 1, the locked chapel illusion in Episode 2, the locked room ring in Episode 3, the phone calls in Episode 4, and the faked deaths in Episode 5, among other phenomena. The details of the plot are probably only limited by the imagination of the people that created it, meaning that an effectively infinite number of event sequences can occur in the leadup to the murders; the only constant is that Maria is always the catalyst that kicks everything off, when she supposedly meets a mysterious person in the rose garden. Since the plots always contain elements from Maria's notebook, there's even a possibility that she had a hand in the writing herself.

That would make Rule Z something like, someone, possibly Maria, writes one of infinitely many possible stories, which is then acted out on the island. However, because Bern doesn't know the nature of this rule, she can't tell the events caused by it from the ones caused by Rules X and Y, which is why she was fooled by the faked deaths in Episode 5. In general, until she figures it out, the board should look like an incomprehensible shifting maze to her because the important events will be concealed under a cloud of random noise.

I think this is pretty close at least. rule Y might need some editing because I think it has to do with deception about the culprit rather than just rumors or for...

Spoiler for spoiler:

a reason why Beatrice can exist on rokkenjima, which we're trying to refute

I think it's pretty close though.

I think your rule Z makes the most sense so far because it explains why reality kind of seems to degrade over time. It explains the confusion on the game board.

[Smeckledorf]

Well let me retype what I have already posted, as long as this "bomb" doesn't kill a single thing then I am ok with it. But if the bomb kills even one person then it ruins the series for me. I am ok with a person just burning a crime scene, it's not something I like in my mysteries but it is acceptable. But a bomb killing someone just raises no questions. Let's say there is a closed room with a bomb in it, how is this possible?!?!?
The bomb was set to explode after the culprit left.
Oh.
Anymore questions?
No, that sums it all up.
Really? not even who set the bomb?
Nope, anyone most likely could have.
Yea, bombs suck.
I agree.
See? Both of those fictional people developed by myself clearly agree, three strikes you're out. Bombs are officially the scourge of mystery.

[ijriims]

@Smeckledorf:

EP4 said that initially after Eva was known to be the only survivor from the "accident", the public and the media rumoured that she was the mastermind behind the accident.

This died down after sometimes, presumably because police defined the incident as accident and people lack any material to really accuse Eva.

However, after Eva selled the Kinzo's books , this catched the world's attention and people started getting interests in Rokkenjima incident as a lot of books got lost during the accident as well.

After that, the letter-in-the-bottle was revealed by a fisherman and this sparked the whole speculation again as the letter stated that it was Beatrice, the golden witch killing people on Rokkenjima. A latter revelation of an earlier letter-in-the-bottle found by the police confirmed the letters must be written by someone who had arrived at Rokkenjima and were thrown into the sea a few days before the incident.

ONLY after all these people started believing in the mystery of Rokkenjima and the myth of Beatrice. If the selling of books did not occur, everyone would just say the incident as an accident as they had nothing to build on.

You are right in saying that a bomb deprived people's interest, but it only applied to when the letters-in-the-bottle were not revealed. Police still insisted that it was an accident but the public accepted the more exciting rumour from the letters-in-the-bottle.


The bomb, while it should be planted by someone, does not turn Umineko into bomb mystery as it seemed that no one was aware of its presence throughout the episode. On the other hand, if the truth was that the mastermind both staged the epitaph murders while at the same time setting up the bomb, this would give points to the mystery as the readers needed to solve this seemingly conflicting decision (why killing people according to epitaph while you had a bomb in the end?).

In my opinion, the existence of this bomb told the motive of Beatrice and that's why it was said to be her heart in the end of EP4.

[Judoh]

The bomb would never be used for a closed room mystery like I said it explains why it wasn't solved and why no one was convicted. And if you seriously think even one person dying from an explosion kills the story for you than there is no god in the universe that can help you.

So I'll refute your antimystery trolling with the red

The 6 people were not killed by traps

This can include bombs.

Nanjo was killed by another person
Of course, it was with a direct method of murder, not a trap

Kanon did not die in an accident!

But this doesn't refute the possibility that Battler died in an accident even if it was a bomb a fire or poison.

by the way doesn't poison work the same way? If you assume everybody died from poison than you don't need closed rooms either. Just people bringing poisoned tea into a locked room.

Poison sucks as a theory, it would kill the story for me, and I'd never read Ryukishi's stories ever again bla bla bla bla...

[Smeckledorf]

The motive of Beatrice is to get people to look at the epitaph so she can blow them all up? Lame ten times over. Locked rooms make Umineko into Umineko. Bombs change Umineko and thus kills all interest that was had for the series.
Even without a fire or a bomb, what would you call this incident if there is no culprit found? An accident. Lost in the accident could simply refer to the confiscation of items as evidence, etc. Anyways, any killing before a bomb would become an exercise of futility.

The scenario with the locked room involving a bomb was just an example. I used poison as an alternative as to what could have killed Battler in episode 4. I did not say I believed everyone died with poison. My main point is that the bomb makes the killings futile. Thinking of Bernkastel's rules is so much lamer than trying to figure how a human could possibly do the murders. Now a human doesn't because a bomb would do it anyways. Are you going to honestly tell me this story wouldn't be much more interesting if there was not bomb at the end of each game? I can say with no doubts that the existence of a bomb would make this story much less interesting to me. I have always wondered, "Who is Beatrice?" but "What is Beatrice?" just saddens me as a question. I don't see where Ryukishi got this idea, he must have asked M Night Shyamalan what would be a crappy twist.

[ijriims]

My own set of RuleX, Y and Z:

Remeber that this EXTRA TIPS was out between EP3 and EP4, so it should be told from Bern's viewpoint before she watched EP4's content.

Rule X: Beatrice's letters, Maria as the messager. At this point, everything was already set in motion. In fact, when they arrived at the island, Beatrice's plan had already undergoing.

Rule Y: Beatrice's killing of everyone by the end of episode (Eva's sole survival was probably not predicted in her plan). This created a complete catbox for what happened on Rokkenjima. 34 in Higurashi made an incomplete catbox since the people in the organization Tokyo, those who participated in the operation probably knew what happened. In Umineko's case, probably no one knew what truly happened on Rokkenjima, not even Eva after she survived. This made the opening for Beatrice's existence and magic.

Rule Z: Beatrice's capriciousness. Basically she changed her plan frivolusly everytime. So Bern could not deduce the true culprit from Rule X and Rule Y. From Rule X and Y in Higurashi one could find out the suspicion of Tanako and the government's involvement. However, in Umineko, one could not find who was the Beatrice from Rule X and why there was Rule Y.

[Smeckledorf]

Just say the bomb is Beatrice, everyone here pretty much believes that and you will be shunned aside for not believing such.

[Judoh]

I'm not sure about your rule X because there are less and less letters as the story goes on. Your rule Z makes sense though because it addresses why the deception continues even after the fact. The only way I can make sense of your rule Y though is if your assuming Beatrice is a title.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Smeckledorf

Just say the bomb is Beatrice, everyone here pretty much believes that and you will be shunned aside for not believing such.

Jesus your such a broken record. If your so faithful to the story than why even worry about it? Just wait until it blows over there isn't any guarantee that that theory is even true.

[Smeckledorf]

I do have to repeat my points a lot, so yea I can see the comparison of myself and a broken record.
I do wonder if the Taiwan Theory is true or not, I personally like the epitaph theory mentioned here. Though it is less complete. The focus around some of the same points. But to me, Taiwan seems more like speculation. Also, Ryukishi said it would be 98% solvable at the time the Taiwan theory was completed. Was there an extraordinary guess or is the theory off? No clue.
Aside from the Taiwan theory I looked up other clues to the existence of a bomb. The main one seems to be the heavy use of the word 'accident' when describing the incident in 1998. I have no problem in helping you guys present this case. I can preach from the Bible but that does not necessarily mean I believe what is written in it.
I don't say there is no bomb, it is my stand point that the evidence supporting the existence of a bomb is not complete. The problem, that can probably be corrected, that I see in Taiwan is it involves a secret passage. I could have read it wrong, though.
On the subject of faith, I am less faithful to the claim that there is not a bomb then mostly everyone who has argued that there is. Mainly because I didn't say there is not a bomb. Though, there is an adamant understanding here that a bomb does exist. And I still maintain that Reagan gave the orders for that bomb to drop!!!

Well, 100% of the murders in episodes 1-5 are solvable so I guess I will focus on those.

[Mirrored]

That a bomb goes off at 2400 should be taken as a fact. It is why the game always ends at the same time.

The bomb is set to clear CULPRIT X after the fact. Thus, even if their are multiple murderers (there are) they would not know about the bomb.

[Ttak]

I believe the bomb (or boiler room exploding) is just something to get rid of evidence. Remember, the police considered the incident an accident. If they ever saw a corpse gouged with a stake, investigations wouldn't lead to "accident". The things that claimed it was a witch killing people were the letters in the bottle.
We should at least assume there's something that happens at 24:00, killing the survivors in the mansion.