AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Current Series > Naruto/Boruto

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2004-12-18, 10:29   Link #101
Genei Killua
Mashou no Tenshi
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Cleveland, OH
Age: 33
Send a message via AIM to Genei Killua
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter
Exactly like during the training with the water ballon, the vortex of the Rasengan made the water spins like hell and thus made the water tank implode from the inside.
I doubt the water in the water tank was spinning like a vortext. For one thing, that wouldn't help it explode out of one side like it did. For another, the force of the rasengan moved pretty linearly from Naruto's punch to the back of the water tank. Physically speaking, if you're going to say that the water was spinning, it just doesn't make any sense. How could it be spinning in a vortex while simultaneously being blown out the back? That sort of flow isn't possible. The water just was a good conductor of the force behind the rasengan.

As to Neji, while he has shown spectacular micro-scale chakra control, he hasn't shown ability to spin it (as opposed to what falsehoods have been allowed to propagate in this thread) on the basis of his chakra strength, and he probably doesn't have the amount to create that many. It would probably take him many years to learn it, and would be a waste of his time in that he could use that time to improve on other areas. The rasengan isn't made for someone like him. For the rasengan and its training, you need great chakra, stamina, and physical chakra control. Neji most likely has the proper amounts for the last requisite, but for the rasengan to be right for you, you need all three--like the 4th, Jiraiya, and Naruto.
Genei Killua is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-12-18, 10:55   Link #102
hunterx
ore wa kanpeki da
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Genei Killua
I doubt the water in the water tank was spinning like a vortext. For one thing, that wouldn't help it explode out of one side like it did. For another, the force of the rasengan moved pretty linearly from Naruto's punch to the back of the water tank. Physically speaking, if you're going to say that the water was spinning, it just doesn't make any sense. How could it be spinning in a vortex while simultaneously being blown out the back? That sort of flow isn't possible. The water just was a good conductor of the force behind the rasengan.

As to Neji, while he has shown spectacular micro-scale chakra control, he hasn't shown ability to spin it (as opposed to what falsehoods have been allowed to propagate in this thread) on the basis of his chakra strength, and he probably doesn't have the amount to create that many. It would probably take him many years to learn it, and would be a waste of his time in that he could use that time to improve on other areas. The rasengan isn't made for someone like him. For the rasengan and its training, you need great chakra, stamina, and physical chakra control. Neji most likely has the proper amounts for the last requisite, but for the rasengan to be right for you, you need all three--like the 4th, Jiraiya, and Naruto.
The only thing neji lacks is the amount of chakra needed to use the rasengan in any useful way. I didn't see naruto knowing how to do anything with chakra before he learned it. Knowing how to spin is not a prerequisite since you are going to try to learn how to spin when you start. The rasengan like you said is not just having one thing, it takes a combination of things to do it. Could neji learn the technique, sure, could he make one like naruto, I doubt it.
hunterx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-12-18, 11:50   Link #103
Genei Killua
Mashou no Tenshi
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Cleveland, OH
Age: 33
Send a message via AIM to Genei Killua
Quote:
Originally Posted by hunterx
Knowing how to spin is not a prerequisite since you are going to try to learn how to spin when you start.
The talent required to spin is a prerequisite. The rasengan is not something that everybody can learn. It doesn't just require hard work, and a decent amount of chakra. Tsunade was so amazed at Naruto's talent that she declared that he will definitely become hokage. That's a pretty bold statement based off being able to do just a single jutsu, and is backed by severity of the jutsu itself.
Genei Killua is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-12-18, 13:44   Link #104
Hunter
Bubbly and super fun
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Doesn't look like Kansas
Quote:
Originally Posted by Genei Killua
I doubt the water in the water tank was spinning like a vortext. For one thing, that wouldn't help it explode out of one side like it did. For another, the force of the rasengan moved pretty linearly from Naruto's punch to the back of the water tank. Physically speaking, if you're going to say that the water was spinning, it just doesn't make any sense. How could it be spinning in a vortex while simultaneously being blown out the back? That sort of flow isn't possible. The water just was a good conductor of the force behind the rasengan.
It's however Kishimoto himself who showed that it was easier to break things full of water with the spin of the Rasengan, it's the whole point of the 1st step and the only difference with the 2nd.
You think that he forgot that? There is a reason why Kishimoto decided to put water tanks and not just some kind of walls.

The Rasengan made the water moving in all sort of direction except that contrary to the water balloon the water tank couldn't become all dented and deformed and thus ended bursting from one side.
It's to say that a chakra vortex put into water wouldn't make the water spin which doesn't make sense at all.

Quote:
As to Neji, while he has shown spectacular micro-scale chakra control, he hasn't shown ability to spin it (as opposed to what falsehoods have been allowed to propagate in this thread).
Watch your pm.
Hunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-12-18, 16:11   Link #105
hokagenaruto3
Crescent & Star
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Amsterdam
Age: 31
If the 4th Critisized Kakashi for the incompleteness of chidori, he must have had his own way of striking the opponent... Wonder if Naruto will learn.
I assume Yondaime is not a hypocrite, like critisize Kakashi for chidori and bluntly attacking with rasengan.
hokagenaruto3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-12-18, 23:42   Link #106
Srin Tuar
無謀
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by hokagenaruto3
If the 4th Critisized Kakashi for the incompleteness of chidori, he must have had his own way of striking the opponent... Wonder if Naruto will learn.
I assume Yondaime is not a hypocrite, like critisize Kakashi for chidori and bluntly attacking with rasengan.
--edit-
hrm, maybe could have been construed as a manga spoiler.
dont want some foaming at the mouth admin to ban me fora week
so i deleted it

Last edited by Srin Tuar; 2004-12-19 at 01:27.
Srin Tuar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-12-19, 00:00   Link #107
Isis&Osiris
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter

Anyway massive quantity of chakra is an important point of the Rasengan, the whole 2nd step is dedicated to that.
Also the power of the Rasengan doesn't seem to have anything to do with air compression but directly with chakra compression.


Exactly like during the training with the water ballon, the vortex of the Rasengan made the water spins like hell and thus made the water tank implode from the inside.
/gibber

chakra compression: true, but that's just one element. imo, it needs a vacuum + air pressure + kinetic motion. this motion is like the running start of chidori except 10000000 times more faster to form a spheric container. this kind of vortex inside is like extreme PSI (100000000 pressure per square inch).

the tank's implosion: would havebeen in 360 degrees direction. it would have blown the tank to smithereens. but from the hole, it appears the decompression of the ball is triangulated in one direction.


it would be inefficient if one needed massive quantity to create extreme density of energetic force. imo, rasengan isn't about mass x quantity but extreme efficient, clever use of chakra to create a 1-dimensional field of energy in 3D space.

in ORMUS theory where the atoms in gold (3D object) are unbonded, loosely to mean it requires less energy to hold the bonds together and space becomes much less at atomic level. once gold is debonded to a monoatomic state (1D). its atomic weight can't even be weighed with current tech. the density of its quanta is astromically unknown too.

tangentially, this theory is like the rasengan where its like PSI ball in relation to space of a densified version of 10 cubic football fields of quanta.

/gibber
Isis&Osiris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-12-19, 00:35   Link #108
Shrimpusmaximus
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
SWEEEEEETTTTTT.....
I have never seen, or dreamed that one could analyze anime to the degree you just did. HELL YEAH, debonded gold. WOW. Ah that made my evening right there. I am now a smiling smiling man.

Anyway to expand on what you said I think that the extreme efficiency you quoted is only possible under rareified conditions. Neji has excellent emmision ability but lacks the abilty to control it as an external substance, a requisite for the moves execution. I assume that it requires a certain prohibitive level of genius that only the fourth and his genius(academy grad 7 years) mentor Jiraya managed to pull off. Moreover there has to be a power component though I believe that part of that is the force required to compress the chakra. If chakra is considered a substance or an energy then it has volume, which would be the normal designator of the requisites of a technique, ie you need x units of chakra to pull this off. The rasengan if you will requires a small amount of chakra but needs an exceedingly high voltage. The small amount must be spun very fast thus giving it kinetic energy. Losing control at this phase results in that massive explosion that shot naruto hundreds of feet and burned his hands.

Furthermore I posit that the reason that naruto has the abilty to execute the move is that his framework can withstand the neccessary exertion to rotate the chakra, and furthermore the semi sentient and externally manipulable qualities of the Kyuubi's energy actually allows him to efficiently convert work into power. I show naruto one handing the rasengan while in full Kyuubi mode as proof positve that the chakra of the nine tails is what allowed such an extraordinary feat.
Shrimpusmaximus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-12-19, 00:42   Link #109
UserName
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
I'll just say that people assume that all Neji can do is stuff like closing points...

First off all you shouldn't assume things. Second of all, the assumption are proven wrong by things shown later in the manga...

apperantly you cant even put spoiler tags unless it's [manga] right? Well that severly limits any valid discussion in terms of Neji's ability to use the Rasengan... and a lot of other non [manga] topics...
UserName is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-12-19, 19:08   Link #110
raikage
日本語を食べません!
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: San Francisco
Age: 36
*brain fails*
raikage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-12-20, 09:52   Link #111
Hunter
Bubbly and super fun
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Doesn't look like Kansas
You would have loved the thread why the characters run like retard

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isis&Osiris
chakra compression: true, but that's just one element. imo, it needs a vacuum + air pressure + kinetic motion. this motion is like the running start of chidori except 10000000 times more faster to form a spheric container. this kind of vortex inside is like extreme PSI (100000000 pressure per square inch).
Anyway the vacuum + air pressure is wrong for a very simple reason : Jiraiya explained very precisely the way of working of the Rasengan and it has nothing to do with that.
Besides there is no vacuum in water which was however stated as a better environment to increase the power of the Rasengan.
The kinetic motion/spin speed is indeed an important point of the Rasengan as stated numerous times by both Jiraiya and Naruto.

Quote:
the tank's implosion: would havebeen in 360 degrees direction. it would have blown the tank to smithereens. but from the hole, it appears the decompression of the ball is triangulated in one direction.
It's simply completely wrong.



A water tank isn't a thin water ballon and couldn't become all dented and deformed and thus ended bursting a hole from one side during one of the spin.
Note that it already happened anyway during the ballon training when Naruto wasn't perfectly focusing his chakra inside the ballon which wasn't possible on a target as large as the water tank.
Btw you certainely didn't use trigonometry to calculate the direction so there is no point to use "triangulated" in your sentence.

Quote:
it would be inefficient if one needed massive quantity to create extreme density of energetic force. imo, rasengan isn't about mass x quantity but extreme efficient, clever use of chakra to create a 1-dimensional field of energy in 3D space.
Inefficient? It's only perfectly logical.
But better than that it's precisely stated once again by both Naruto and Jiraiya. You have the right to be wrong but the fact remains that you contradict the explanation in the manga.
Oh and the last part of your sentence is laughable.

Quote:
in ORMUS theory where the atoms in gold (3D object) are unbonded, loosely to mean it requires less energy to hold the bonds together and space becomes much less at atomic level. once gold is debonded to a monoatomic state (1D). its atomic weight can't even be weighed with current tech. the density of its quanta is astromically unknown too.

tangentially, this theory is like the rasengan where its like PSI ball in relation to space of a densified version of 10 cubic football fields of quanta.
Random and loose-fitting quotation can be funny but they have to be a little less obvious.
Hunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-12-20, 11:12   Link #112
brassmonkey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
i think the water tank would look more realistic if the top would explode as well.

since the rasengan might lose its concentration in the water without guidance from naruto, and all the power just unleash into a huge tonado, that would cause the water tank to just explode. due to the pressure.
brassmonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-12-20, 19:34   Link #113
Shrimpusmaximus
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Hunter, once again you have jumped in and stated this is so without the slightest idea of what you are this is so'ing against. The theory he proposed only has the slightest bit of bearing on the amount of chakra that is needed to execute the maneuver not the vagaries of the first stage rasengan. The third stage rasengan does have this phenomena of incredible pressure called weight in the manga, at least the inane translation.

I don't want to start a flame war with you quoting every single line of my post so I will keep this short. I don't insult you I just want to avoid this degenerating into a hunter vs... thread. Rexamine exactly what he is stating and perhaps instead of saying this is not so giving a this is so argument. As it stands your arguments don't really seem to exist until someone says something then they leap into existance and annihilate them like anitmatter.

All I'm saying is instead of ragging on ORMUS, or his ideas, ask if you don't understand, but until then reserve judgement.
Shrimpusmaximus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-12-20, 20:17   Link #114
Hunter
Bubbly and super fun
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Doesn't look like Kansas
The 3rd stage of the Rasengan cumulates the first two steps.

Then I wasn't ragging on ORMUS but on the total lack of common point between that and the Rasengan.
And actually I could have ragged on the very principle of "ormus" as well given that it seems to be fairly lucridious.

What can we know about ormus or Orbitally Rearranged Monoatomic Elements except that it's supposed to be the so called "Philosopher's Stone" or also the "Elixir of Life"? (but please people, help us finding money it's for science!)
Well the purpose of the great pyramide for example.
Let's quote the whole thing this is worth it.
Quote:
Pyramid Levitation
I believe that the Great Pyramid was designed to be a "Swiss Army knife" like tool to manipulate consciousness and matter. It may have been designed to be a "trap" for the ORMUS elements from air. It may also have been designed to convert metallic gold into ORMUS gold and it may have been designed to concentrate these ORMUS elements in the King's Chamber so that people could use these elements for spiritual purposes.
[...]
It is but a short step from psychokinesis (moving a body sidewise) to levitation (moving a body upward). I am firmly convinced that the pyramids, both Egyptian and Central American, were huge antigravity structures for levitating the priests. The pyramid acted like a huge "enlarger-type" condensing lens which concentrated the cosmic energy into the hollow resonant stone tower, which in turn was filled with the IR-paramagnetic, organic breath of chanting priests. If my belief seems farfetched, then perhaps the "picture" language of the Egyptians themselves should give one cause to reconsider. There are quite a few Egyptian wall reliefs that show a Pharaoh lying on a sphinx-like stone couch. In the next accompanying relief, the carving shows the Pharaoh six inches above the surface of the couch with a sacred kestrel hovering above his outstretched body. Remember the kestrel is one of the few large birds that can hover in a fixed position in space
Thanks I'm still laughing.

When I compared that to the why the characters run like retard, I wasn't kidding.
The whole ormus stuff is nothing but pseudo-scientific language mixed with basic paranormal story at the same level of a X-file episode.
Not even at this level in fact.


Oh yeah and if you didn't get my points then you can... ask.
Hunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-12-20, 20:32   Link #115
Srin Tuar
無謀
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrimpusmaximus
Hunter, once again you have jumped in and stated this is so without the slightest idea of what you are this is so'ing against.
Its a little bit nonsensical, the whole theory thing. I didnt say anything because he did put it in "gibber" tags.

Anti-matter contained in a magnetic field, or plasma streams or something like that might make a good analogy maybe. Not gold nuclei.
Srin Tuar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-12-20, 21:36   Link #116
jhcl
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
hmm i think both control and a lot of chakra is required for rasengan...

everyone here is saying all the steps to learning the rasengan was all about control... but that is probably only because naruto already has mastered outputting enough chakra for it...

so while neji could learn it i dont think jiraiya would bother teaching him it since he probably doesnt pass the test of outputing enough chakra for it, whats the point of a rasengan when all you can do with it is tickle someone...

im pretty sure when naruto first met jiraiya he mentioned something like naruto has shit loads of chakra already so he should concentrate more on mass chakra use techniques rather than those that require some set amount.
jhcl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-12-20, 23:24   Link #117
Hisoka??
Ultra noob
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhcl
hmm i think both control and a lot of chakra is required for rasengan...

everyone here is saying all the steps to learning the rasengan was all about control... but that is probably only because naruto already has mastered outputting enough chakra for it...

so while neji could learn it i dont think jiraiya would bother teaching him it since he probably doesnt pass the test of outputing enough chakra for it, whats the point of a rasengan when all you can do with it is tickle someone...

im pretty sure when naruto first met jiraiya he mentioned something like naruto has shit loads of chakra already so he should concentrate more on mass chakra use techniques rather than those that require some set amount.
erm actually i think the 2nd step was about outputting enuff chakra although it was also about outputting that great amount in the small area(control)
Hisoka?? is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-12-20, 23:33   Link #118
Srin Tuar
無謀
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhcl
im pretty sure when naruto first met jiraiya he mentioned something like naruto has shit loads of chakra already so he should concentrate more on mass chakra use techniques rather than those that require some set amount.
Exactly, efficiency, precision of control, long sequences of hand seals, speed, etc are all things htat naruto is not the best at.

He has really only three strengths: Stamina, Fast healing, and Massive quantities of chakura.
Srin Tuar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-12-20, 23:52   Link #119
brassmonkey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Srin Tuar
Exactly, efficiency, precision of control, long sequences of hand seals, speed, etc are all things htat naruto is not the best at.

He has really only three strengths: Stamina, Fast healing, and Massive quantities of chakura.

stamina, because of his kyuubi, healing, also because of the kyuubi, and uber power, because of the kyuubi.

jiraya was right, he didn't need to learn control, imagine if he could do the heavenly spin like neji, it could develop into an offensive power, instead of just defensive.
brassmonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-12-20, 23:52   Link #120
Shrimpusmaximus
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
I ain't gonna go out on a limb for another dudes theory. I will say that the third stage rasengan is a perfectly self contained vortex of shifting rotating chakra... How does chakra interact with physical entites, well, force. So it has pressure and even if it doesn't have mass it has volume. If it is sealed in there what is sealing it? I dunno but the theories that have been put forward adress this. Does it hav any relation to Neji's abilty to execute it or what shape the tank exploded? I think that Sculder and Mully would have a great time figgering it out.
Shrimpusmaximus is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 15:06.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
We use Silk.