Magic and Technology of MGLN

[Sunder the Gold]

Barriers and Shields.

I believe the StrikerS supplementary manga and one StrikerS training episode explain that Barriers are designed to deflect force and Shields are designed to block or reflect it.

Yet I can't recall ever seeing a Shield-type spell reflect anything. They either block and negate an attack, or break.

Meanwhile, I can recall Nanoha's barrier-type Protection spell rebounding two different Jewel Shield monsters; and one of Yuuno's barrier defenses throwing Arf away the second time he intercepts one of her pounces.

Thoughts?

[Hoki]

Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold

Barriers and Shields.

I believe the StrikerS supplementary manga and one StrikerS training episode explain that Barriers are designed to deflect force and Shields are designed to block or reflect it.

Yet I can't recall ever seeing a Shield-type spell reflect anything. They either block and negate an attack, or break.

Meanwhile, I can recall Nanoha's barrier-type Protection spell rebounding two different Jewel Shield monsters; and one of Yuuno's barrier defenses throwing Arf away the second time he intercepts one of her pounces.

Thoughts?

I do remember Nanoha using something called "Barrier Burst" in A's, but then again, it was more like making the barrier explode, causing damage to the person hitting the barrier.

As with reflecting things, I believe this is Lutecia's gig in Vivid. she uses an array of barriers and fires a few beams, if the beams miss, and hits the shields instead, the beam bounces back.

[Sunder the Gold]

Originally Posted by Hoki

I do remember Nanoha using something called "Barrier Burst" in A's, but then again, it was more like making the barrier explode, causing damage to the person hitting the barrier.

That's something completely different, and which doesn't confirm or deny how regular barriers have worked in the past.

As with reflecting things, I believe this is Lutecia's gig in Vivid. she uses an array of barriers and fires a few beams, if the beams miss, and hits the shields instead, the beam bounces back.

Has this chapter actually been translated and posted on manga sites?

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold

Has this chapter actually been translated and posted on manga sites?

It wasn't given much focus, but yes, in a one-shot scene, we see Lutecia using this tactic against an opponent in ViVid in a translated chapter. It was also named properly, IIRC.

[krisslanza]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

It wasn't given much focus, but yes, in a one-shot scene, we see Lutecia using this tactic against an opponent in ViVid in a translated chapter. It was also named properly, IIRC.

That would have to be during the big group battle, I think?

I imagine it's given more focus in a translated chapter already, but it's just not been released. Try again in 2014

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by krisslanza

That would have to be during the big group battle, I think?

I imagine it's given more focus in a translated chapter already, but it's just not been released. Try again in 2014

No, it was during the tournament. I'll see if I can find it again.

[Hoki]

I think it was shown during the preliminary matches. Kinda makes you wonder why Lu-chan resorted to that instead of summoning giant bugs.

[Rising Dragon]

Chapter 25, page 19. The spell itself is called Reflect Mirage.

[XenahortCharybdis]

Originally Posted by Hoki

I think it was shown during the preliminary matches. Kinda makes you wonder why Lu-chan resorted to that instead of summoning giant bugs.

Granted what we've seen in StrikerS, she summons many small critters and a giant bug. So mostly likely the Technique Amnesia is just so the situation doesn't become like a Fist of the North Star/JoJo's Bizzare Adventure "MUDA/ORA/ATATATA/*insert battle cry here*" segment while the victim tries to obliterate the swarm of naughty critters.

[krisslanza]

Something that's always been kind of nagging me. It's nothing shown directly in the series, but inferred from the Sound Stages but...

Why do so many people seem to believe a gun would've been effective against a mage in the first place? The Mirage can create weaponry, and did fire essentially an anti-tank shell at Subaru which didn't kill her - though it hurt, a lot. But why does this seem to surprise people?

We've seen mages slammed about a dozen stories through solid concrete and survive, why would a gun do anything at all to them? As long as they have their defenses up anyway.

[XenahortCharybdis]

Hmmm. We could consider this: granted that the societies of Mid, Belka were all sufficiently advanced societies far beyond the scale of, say, Earth...

(...despite some odd anachronisms here and there. What the heck is with having genetic engineering alongside horses -what, is it a Knight-mare?- and medieval armor anyway...)

...It could be speculated that their idea of 'gun'/'kinetic weaponry' is probably far different from our conception.

If you asked a man in a firing line in the Continental Army what a gun was, he'd think a smooth-bore musket for small arms and a cannon for artillery. But if you asked me, I'd say a SAW for small arms and a 155 battery for calling in a rain of steel. With my small arms I'd be mowing down their whole firing line before you could say 'make ready!' just by shifting my aim from left to right - and with the 155s Cornwallis would have been out of the States by the next month.

So yeah, technology evolves. If she survived an AT weapon without a shield, I suspect that Subaru with a shield up could probably laugh off one full tank-killing ATGM barrage on Earth and have time to make a few corny quips right out of Spiderman before slapping you silly.

For all you know, an AT-shell would pretty much have become small arms by the time we get to where Mid is. This would be an interesting explanation as to why no one goes "WHAT, H4XX!" when the Mariage turn out to be able to create weaponry on the fly - it isn't a big problem if it's just small arms. Now if they could pull out the post-post-post-modern era equivalent of artillery and smart bombs, now that's a different story.

As to the reason why people are surprised by guns not actually dropping mages like flies is due to the ban on mass-based weaponry - and I suspect an (implied enforced) ignorance as to the huge spectrum of kinetic weaponry available. In the context 'assumed advanced society' it's probably like like putting your MAC Cannons and Yamato Main Guns into the same boat as the section automated weapons and 30mm miniguns. The former group of which, I suspect, would not be half so easy to block or evade.

[ZeroXSEED]

Ban on mass based weaponry essentially because 'real' weapon arms race will end with nukes and beyond. And once again, average shmuck can use guns, not everyone can use magic of equivalent power.

of course, this point is moot considering Arc en Ciel and all

[krisslanza]

Originally Posted by XenahortCharybdis

Hmmm. We could consider this: granted that the societies of Mid, Belka were all sufficiently advanced societies far beyond the scale of, say, Earth...

(...despite some odd anachronisms here and there. What the heck is with having genetic engineering alongside horses -what, is it a Knight-mare?- and medieval armor anyway...)

...It could be speculated that their idea of 'gun'/'kinetic weaponry' is probably far different from our conception.

If you asked a man in a firing line in the Continental Army what a gun was, he'd think a smooth-bore musket for small arms and a cannon for artillery. But if you asked me, I'd say a SAW for small arms and a 155 battery for calling in a rain of steel. With my small arms I'd be mowing down their whole firing line before you could say 'make ready!' just by shifting my aim from left to right - and with the 155s Cornwallis would have been out of the States by the next month.

So yeah, technology evolves. If she survived an AT weapon without a shield, I suspect that Subaru with a shield up could probably laugh off one full tank-killing ATGM barrage on Earth and have time to make a few corny quips right out of Spiderman before slapping you silly.

For all you know, an AT-shell would pretty much have become small arms by the time we get to where Mid is. This would be an interesting explanation as to why no one goes "WHAT, H4XX!" when the Mariage turn out to be able to create weaponry on the fly - it isn't a big problem if it's just small arms. Now if they could pull out the post-post-post-modern era equivalent of artillery and smart bombs, now that's a different story.

As to the reason why people are surprised by guns not actually dropping mages like flies is due to the ban on mass-based weaponry - and I suspect an (implied enforced) ignorance as to the huge spectrum of kinetic weaponry available. In the context 'assumed advanced society' it's probably like like putting your MAC Cannons and Yamato Main Guns into the same boat as the section automated weapons and 30mm miniguns. The former group of which, I suspect, would not be half so easy to block or evade.

As for Belka, I assumed because in most of the flashbacks to it is during the Warring Period - where it's pretty much stated they have fought themselves back into the dark ages. They simply had been fighting for so long they forgot how to do almost everything except fight.

So they started using medieval-style armor and horses again. That, and it just looks cool I'm sure.

Insightful post though. My personal thought was some people are just gun fetishes, and thinks the gun is the pinnacle of weaponry, and that guns should beat everything

Though, speaking of the ban, we know it's not impossible to bypass. Rune owns a revolver, and as Vice notes, it fires live ammo not magic.

[XenahortCharybdis]

Originally Posted by krisslanza

As for Belka, I assumed because in most of the flashbacks to it is during the Warring Period - where it's pretty much stated they have fought themselves back into the dark ages. They simply had been fighting for so long they forgot how to do almost everything except fight.

So they started using medieval-style armor and horses again. That, and it just looks cool I'm sure.

I'm tempted to assume that the latter is more true than to admit that ViVid is implying the horrific destruction of a trans-dimensional civilization and showing me their lamentable fall from grace through the eyes of a tragic once-and-future-king figure.

But more seriously though I still find the medieval style quite anachronistic granted that they had world-ending super weapons up the wa-hey at that point, as well as the capability to produce more conventional rank-and-file weaponry (think the Type-IVs) that Mad Scientists of the later era could only dream of replicating. Not a few of the magitek stuff used in the Belkan era can barely be aped in present Mid, seemingly.

Although it could be argued that the Belkans themselves were aping as well, and never really developed much mass-production capability after the destruction of their homeworld. Hence why the Cradle battle was essentially a lost cause - there's only so much you'll be ruling after having your force reduced to one invincible world-breaker ship (that doubles as a throne and triples as a prison) while simultaneously making an enemy out of nigh everyone else.

You know, you'd think that if their troops were any bit at all like the Wolkies the war should have been over before anyone could say "Phobos kai deimos".

Originally Posted by krisslanza

My personal thought was some people are just gun fetishes, and thinks the gun is the pinnacle of weaponry, and that guns should beat everything

*cough* I dare not speak for the original writers.

[WarpObscura]

Originally Posted by krisslanza

Something that's always been kind of nagging me. It's nothing shown directly in the series, but inferred from the Sound Stages but...

Why do so many people seem to believe a gun would've been effective against a mage in the first place? The Mirage can create weaponry, and did fire essentially an anti-tank shell at Subaru which didn't kill her - though it hurt, a lot. But why does this seem to surprise people?

We've seen mages slammed about a dozen stories through solid concrete and survive, why would a gun do anything at all to them? As long as they have their defenses up anyway.

BIGGATONS, SON!

As XenahortCharybdis notes, technology has been evolving and presumably will continue to evolve.

Modern pistol rounds: Hundreds to thousands of joules.
Real life prototype shipboard railgun: Megajoules.
LPP 91 from the Culture (peace-rated, below-milspec): Gigajoules.

Just a quick search. You can easily imagine a bigger, better gun.

[Tiresias]

Originally Posted by ZeroXSEED

of course, this point is moot considering Arc en Ciel and all

Just because we only know about ban on mass-based weaponry doesn't mean there can't be an arms control on other types of WMD's, y'know. The Bureau would be mad not to make some rules to prevent private organizations from getting them.

Plus it's a shipboard weapon. That thing can't possibly be cheap and accessible to the average Joe.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by krisslanza

Insightful post though. My personal thought was some people are just gun fetishes, and thinks the gun is the pinnacle of weaponry, and that guns should beat everything

Or any sensible person CANNOT buy that the magical shields are impenetrable to EVERYTHING, will never run out and totally depend of plot for when they actually disappear. Diablo's Mana Shield depends on the user's mana, Eve Online's shields NEEDS active shield tanking and to be reinforced against EM-type and Thermal attacks to withstand damage and the active tanking NEED powergrid to be sustained, Dungeons & Dragons' shields are limited in duration and number of uses. In real life, armor is subject to material fatigue, repeated attacks or brute force. ALL shields and armor break, ALL of them, no exception. And somehow guys are telling us that Nanoha's shields cannot be penetrated or broken by anything in the universe, ever? Really?

[Skane]

Subaru is also an exceptional case, even more so since she is a combat cyborg. She may have blocked that AT-shot from a Mirage, but what about cannon-fodder Rank-B Joe-mage average? Not all mages are of a heroic level, just like not everybody gets to be a certified "Badass of the Week".

Cheers.

[Cannonball]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Or any sensible person CANNOT buy that the magical shields are impenetrable to EVERYTHING, will never run out and totally depend of plot for when they actually disappear. Diablo's Mana Shield depends on the user's mana, Eve Online's shields NEEDS active shield tanking and to be reinforced against EM-type and Thermal attacks to withstand damage and the active tanking NEED powergrid to be sustained, Dungeons & Dragons' shields are limited in duration and number of uses. In real life, armor is subject to material fatigue, repeated attacks or brute force. ALL shields and armor break, ALL of them, no exception. And somehow guys are telling us that Nanoha's shields cannot be penetrated or broken by anything in the universe, ever? Really?

You can get into a tank with just a good sized rock if you have all the time in the world. That doesn't make it a practical option. Just because a gun might eventually break through a barrier jacket / mage's shielding doesn't mean they will in any practical time frame.

Given what mages have been shown to withstand, it would take a truly inordinate amount of real life, modern weaponry to deal with a mage's defences in any reasonable sense. And that's if they don't just dodge them all (mages fly at hundreds of miles per hour with excellent mobility). It's not a question of guns and whatnot being 100% useless. Just useless to the point of a mage wasting you before you even notice much an effect.

[krisslanza]

Originally Posted by Skane

Subaru is also an exceptional case, even more so since she is a combat cyborg. She may have blocked that AT-shot from a Mirage, but what about cannon-fodder Rank-B Joe-mage average? Not all mages are of a heroic level, just like not everybody gets to be a certified "Badass of the Week".

Cheers.

If StrikerS attack on the Ground HQ was any indication, the rank and file mages aren't that great. They probably wouldn't get blown into meaty bits by said AT shell perhaps, but they certainly wouldn't be fighting at all after it.

Given the abuse and damage mages have been shown to dish out, let alone sustain, it seems a bit silly to imagine any Earth-level gun is going to break a mage's defenses before they just beat the tar out of you.

We have to also keep in mind the TSAB might ban mass-weaponry, but they're on an entirely different technological scale then us. Earth is basically some backwater planet in the boonies, our technology isn't anywhere on the level of the mass produced weaponry a civilization like Mid could probably produce.