Fate/Zero - Episode 24 Discussion / Poll

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

We transitioned from the fight scene of kiritsugu and kirie to Saber all of sudden stabbing berserker, without any build up or the like to the event. The last time we saw Saber on screen she was struggling massively emotionally and was being pushed to the brink and getting knocked around. HOW THE HELL DID WE GET HERE?

That too. Talk about a major anti-climax. The least they could have done was make the sequence of events in the fight not feel so horribly disjointed and abrupt. I could barely believe what I was seeing (and not in a good way) after the black mud interrupted Kiritsugu and Kirei's fight. Suddenly, a major Master/Servant team is written out the story as if they were just another pair of fodder Assassins. It left such a bad taste in my mouth that I initially struggled to enjoy the rest of the episode, even if it was generally very well handled from that point on.

[dark998]

Disappointing episode and battle conclusions, I guess ufotable ran out of budget after last week's stellar performance. Oh well.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

That too. Talk about a major anti-climax. The least they could have done was make the sequence of events in the fight not feel so horribly disjointed and abrupt. I could barely believe what I was seeing (and not in a good way) after the black mud interrupted Kiritsugu and Kirei's fight. Suddenly, a major Master/Servant team is written out the story as if they were just another pair of fodder Assassins. It left such a bad taste in my mouth that I initially struggled to enjoy the rest of the episode, even if it was generally very well handled from that point on.

Yeah this is why I just opted out of rating this episode. My enjoyment was hampered from that point onward even though the rest of what followed was done well, and it just leaves me with regret since I could've enjoyed it much better presumably in the blue ray version.

I pretty much agree that they should have left the last few minutes with Gil and Saber and Kiritsugu out for next episode and that might've alleviated some of the problems that we had here...

[sento]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

If that's the case, then clearly they made a poor estimation, didn't they? Because Saber and Berserker's story couldn't be anywhere near "done", not properly anyway, in 25 episodes. Which is why they, you know, cut it.

Well, the ACTUAL episode probably will be longer and the whole Lancelot stuff in, they just skipped it in TV Edit, so the estimation is still done right and can be done even with Rin episode.

You know, retail version will be always more important and there is a tv timeslot they have to obey. The same happened with episode 11, and they fixed it later (even re-broadcasting it full edition in a season 1 marathon some weeks after).

Originally Posted by dark998

Disappointing episode and battle conclusions, I guess ufotable ran out of budget after last week's stellar performance. Oh well.

Battle conclusions (with the only stuff left out being Berserker motivation and last words) were the same in the original material so...

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by sento

You know, retail version will be always more important

I agree with that (and I went into it in that "We'll do it better on bluray" thread, which is basically a sub-thread for this episode... ), but ultimately I still believe certain scenes are a little too important to completely excuse their absence from the TV edit, which was definitely the case here. And it certainly doesn't help that they (thought they) had time to fool around in the first season, where far less relevant (or even canon) material made it to the TV edits.

But yeah, my realizing (and desperately hoping) that the retail version will fix the problems with this episode is the reason why I've also opted out of rating it like Reckoner.

[Xagzan]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Honestly if it was simply the monologue and speech that was cut out (Things I've heard cut out since I haven't read the LN), it wouldn't have bothered me so much, but the editing here was simply not good.

We transitioned from the fight scene of kiritsugu and kirie to Saber all of sudden stabbing berserker, without any build up or the like to the event. The last time we saw Saber on screen she was struggling massively emotionally and was being pushed to the brink and getting knocked around. HOW THE HELL DID WE GET HERE?

Also suddenly we saw Kariya was all of a sudden just dead and falls over, no final thoughts or parting words. Ryousuke got a better send off than he did, and he's been a much more major character! I mean c'mon now.

This simply does not serve. I don't know how Ufotable could've paced this series better in the end (It is hard to fit it into TV), but the TV series is not the full experience and I think anyone who is going to relegate themselves to just the TV series is most likely going to miss out if they don't check out the finished product.

It's still disappointing that the loli rin episode did in fact affect this show in the end because I would've gladly cut 10 minutes from that for this episode.

Yeeep, pretty much this. I mean, I'm an anime only viewer, and because of FSN I knew Berserker would be the loser, but seriously, Holy abrupt finish Batman! Suddenly Saber's sword had pierced Lance's gut and I'm thinking "Whoa, that was sure quick! Wasn't she just struggling to even fend him off? Ah well, guess the fight's over now, time for Lancelot's backstory and some explanations--oh, no? We're not doing that? Ok. Guess It'll be on the BD."

So that was the big disappointment of this episode

As for Saber, poor girl. Not to sound sadistic as Gilgamesh, but I found myself understanding what he said. In a way, Saber really is beautiful in despair. Or maybe it was just the amazing job her seiyu was doing with her screams and pleas to Kiritsugu to stop at the end. It's unfortunate, she has zero idea about any of his personality or motivations which we all now know thoroughly. I can't imagine how terrified she must have felt at those commands.

[Archer]

Here's the biggest point you people are missing:

If the Loli Rin stuff was removed, then where does the 10 minutes that make up that episode come from? Do we just move everything ten minutes up? Take the first ten minutes of episode 11 and essentially cut that entire sequence in half, ruining the effect of the IH?

Think about what kind of change that will make. What would necessarily happen if everything was moved ten minutes forward? When I say that each episode is "standalone", I mean that all the events of the episode either flow into each other or have some kind of cohesive theme.

More importantly, do you really think that skipping ten minutes of an episode will have ANY kind of effect on a sequence FOURTEEN episodes later? Really? That's more than half of the series gone by, and any effect that changing the sequence of events would've been long gone by then anyway.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Figures that the part of the episode I was looking forward to seeing most in the Saber/Lancelot character clash would apparently be excised for Blu-Ray only release. I really didn't think I asked for that much from this show. I don't think I've really had any particular expectations as of yet since I'm really not that hardcore into Type/Moon like some anyway and I mostly just watch this entry for the complex morality conflict angles by Gen that I've come to enjoy puzzling over since Madoka Magica and of course the fancy action scenes. Apparently though I did ask for more than could be offered in the immediate present. Guess I might have to find a way to read the light novel chapter if I want to find out what happened with Saber this summer. Shame cause this feels like it could be the grand daddy of them all and maybe could have even brought me that much more into the Type/Moon universe....but it'll have to wait.

Desipte that pretty disappointing reality though there's still there's some other points of interest like Kiritsgu making the just choice in the end and putting the world ahead of his own desires, but is Saber actually going to be able to take out the grail or is Gilgamesh going to work some hax and stop her? I would have to imagine that Gilgamesh is finally going to be placed in some real peril and have little time to react, but I thought that last time and oh how wrong was I proven.

Not even going to jinx it by saying I'm looking forward to anything specific from next episode so cutting my commentary short right here.

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by Archer

If the Loli Rin stuff was removed, then where does the 10 minutes that make up that episode come from? Do we just move everything ten minutes up? Take the first ten minutes of episode 11 and essentially cut that entire sequence in half, ruining the effect of the IH?

There's literally hundreds of different ways they could go about making use of those extra 10 minutes throughout the remainder of the series. The start/end points of each episode aren't set in stone and acting like the moments they choose for each episode from that point on are the only feasible ones… well, it shows a lack of imagination, to say the least. Now obviously moving everything exactly ten minutes up with no care whatsoever for how much content ends up in each episode would be foolish, but even with a little readjusting the natural conclusion would still be to reach this point in the story (Saber vs Berserker) with more ground already covered, thus requiring less abridging of one of the freaking climatic battles. And even if the change's effect might've been gone by now, those 10 minutes still would have received a better use than Rin's lolita thighs either way (say, animating Gilgamesh's flashback, for example).

And hey, if you'd like, I can come up with the exact same solution ufotable came up with for this episode, only for episode 10: Shorten episode 9's events a little and fit a very abridged version of "Rin's Adventure" into a few of its minutes. If it's okay for Arthur vs Lancelot to received that treatment, then why not loli Rin? And with that, there would be no padding and your precious Grail Dialogue could still take place in one episode.

Not that that's actually important either, since the notion that a story event is automatically ruined simply because it is not concluded in the same episode where it began is highly questionable. How about Saber vs Berserker then? That sequence was cut in half in the previous episode, but I'm pretty sure no one would have minded it being concluded in this episode if it had been done properly. There's dozens of other examples of stuff like that in every single series, not just Fate/Zero. Ever heard of cliffhangers? It's honestly baffling to me that I'm even discussing something like this. The start/end points of each episode should get priority over the wholeness of the work? C'mon now.

Think about what kind of change that will make. What would necessarily happen if everything was moved ten minutes forward?

I am thinking. And I'm seeing hundreds of different possibilities. Clearly you're not, though, if all you can see is this invariably negative turnout that can never hope to match the infallible ufotable's impeccable planning. Give me a break. Do you actually believe the cutoff points they chose for each of the weekly 22 minutes were the one and only possible choices and any foreseeable alternative would have undeniably resulted in an inferior product? You're essentially putting them on the same level as gods: "If ufotable decided that the loli Rin episode had to take up an entire episode, otherwise the whole thing would fall apart, then it must be true. There can't have been any other possibilities. This batch of 4 novels was forever destined to be adapted into 25 episodes, with one of them being entirely dedicated to expanding what is arguably the most irrelevant chapter in the story." I don't mean to put words in your mouth here, but that's honestly what you're sounding like to me.

As for this "cohesive theme" each episode has to have, tell me then, what was the cohesive theme for, say, episode 9? The first half was basically entirely dedicated to a love triangle falling apart, whereas the second half had a complete mood whiplash into Waver and Rider's bromance and their rampaging through the wicked Caster's lair. Which is but one of many examples that there's nothing wrong with episodes having scenes that are different in tone, and that in the end what matters most is that all of the important material makes it in and the story truly feels like a whole. How that whole is divided into weekly bits of 22 minutes is a secondary priority.

...At least, that's how I feel. However, I can accept that you, in turn, feel the individual content and cutoff points of each episode are something of the utmost importance. Just… don't try and force that feeling onto those of us who would rather have the complete story (or something resembling it), even if it's not so neatly separated into these so-called standalone episodes of yours. And that's a big if, because the two are hardly mutually exclusive.

[vansonbee]

Just watched the episode tonight at a family house after dinner... very depressing episode. For me, especially when he chose to weed out 1 person out of 3. Seeing Maiya die was saddening.

What made my buddy more depress was watching "Kara no Kyoukai 5: Mujun Rasen" after this episode. He was cursing the director afterwards! lolz

[Horse]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

There's literally hundreds of different ways they could go about making use of those extra 10 minutes throughout the remainder of the series. (...) I am thinking. And I'm seeing hundreds of different possibilities. Clearly you're not, though, if all you can see is this invariably negative turnout that can never hope to match the infallible ufotable's impeccable planning.

To be honest (long post is long and I just woke up so) I'm not sure if you are just hating on Rin getting a full episode and think the show would automatically be better have they not done it but what you say is just true for the whole show regardless: ufotable failed at planning this show for the TV format. (I have not read the novel.)

I'd argue the Rin episode was actually one which fitted the TV format. It wasn't jumping between 5 parties ruining the pacing of every other scene, it had structure and presented a satisfying little story for the week.

Now the last few episodes of the show: constantly jumping between different expositions and fights. When Rider charges for Gil it cuts to Saber talking. When Berserker is charging for Saber it cuts to Gil talking while Rider is still running towards him. Same for the figths in 24. Extended episodes will not make it any better to me! Shonen fightan, etc.

Here's my simple suggestion: WHY NOT make the last 3 episodes happen at the same time? Have one episode for all the buildup and fighting of Rider and Gil, then all the buildup and fightan for Saber and Lancelot and all the buildup and fighting for Kirei and Kotomine. End them all at the same spot with the Grail - revealing only seconds more of the scene every week.

This is what the TV format is good for! It's easy to do and you only need to give the viewer a clue that it's happening at the same time as the last episode - you don't need to have a stupid rewind effect like in Shiki. It may be annoying for the "story" to be stuck at the same point in time for 3 weeks but it would not be Endless 8 and each week we would be presented with "complete" events rather than a Soap where after 10 episodes they are still pouring that same fucking tea (which is what ufotable is doing in my opinion).

I've been saying it for the last 16 or so episodes: the pacing sucks, ufotable failed at planning this show for the TV format. The show is just not good.

PS. Why am I still watching the show? Cause I'm a fool falling for the "it gets better in the last volume" hype and a Kajiura fan still hoping to be surprised. Bitchslapping myself on both accounts.

[jeroz]

let's just put it simply, where would you cut off from ep11 to put in ep10? Where would you say to be a suitable stopping point? Remember that the Kariya scene has to be there.

Also Horse.
remember that it's only 2 episodes instead of 3, so your method won't work.

[Horse]

Originally Posted by jeroz

Also Horse.
remember that it's only 2 episodes instead of 3, so your method won't work.

What part of "ufotable failed at planning this show for the TV format" do you not understand? I don't even remember the exact contents of 21 and 22 but they could probably move things around between the episodes to make them close to what I said (since I said those 3 episodes should include the buildups for the fights - that means taking Broskander stuff that happened in #22 if I remember correctly).

I'm really not trying to fix the show (I'm no writer or director) so I'm just pointing out what exactly I'm not enjoying (the pacing) and saying how they COULD have done things differently (without simply hating on the actual story). There's really no way of telling it would actually be better either. It was their job to make a good show and I simply do not think they did - they keep taking the most bland approach that exists.

Obviously my opinion means squat for the sales - the majority loves the show and I don't understand why.

[LunarMoon]

Originally Posted by Horse

Now the last few episodes of the show: constantly jumping between different expositions and fights. When Rider charges for Gil it cuts to Saber talking. When Berserker is charging for Saber it cuts to Gil talking while Rider is still running towards him. Same for the figths in 24. Extended episodes will not make it any better to me! Shonen fightan, etc.

Here's my simple suggestion: WHY NOT make the last 3 episodes happen at the same time? Have one episode for all the buildup and fighting of Rider and Gil, then all the buildup and fightan for Saber and Lancelot and all the buildup and fighting for Kirei and Kotomine. End them all at the same spot with the Grail - revealing only seconds more of the scene every week.

This is what the TV format is good for! It's easy to do and you only need to give the viewer a clue that it's happening at the same time as the last episode - you don't need to have a stupid rewind effect like in Shiki. It may be annoying for the "story" to be stuck at the same point in time for 3 weeks but it would not be Endless 8 and each week we would be presented with "complete" events rather than a Soap where after 10 episodes they are still pouring that same fucking tea (which is what ufotable is doing in my opinion).

I've been saying it for the last 16 or so episodes: the pacing sucks, ufotable failed at planning this show for the TV format. The show is just not good.

That's a preferential difference. I don't want to watch ten or more minutes of fighting. Direction-wise, episodes seven and eight were amongst my favorites, since switching between the Kiritsugu vs Kayneth, Saber vs Caster, and Iri vs Kotomine fights, kept the content fresh. Focusing on one fight for an entire episode, as you're suggesting, would have been absolutely terrible.

Also, if the vast majority of anime were nearly as good as Fate/Zero, I'd probably watch far more anime on a regular basis. Fate/Zero avoids a lot of the pitfalls, cliches, and fetish pandering that has scared me away from the medium.

[Horse]

Originally Posted by LunarMoon

I don't want to watch ten or more minutes of fighting. (...)Focusing on one fight for an entire episode, as you're suggesting, would have been absolutely terrible.

#1 Where the hell did I say a fight should take a whole episode?
#2 I don't know what you're getting at. In my eyes those were very different cases. For example: the 3 fights in the last episodes are completely seperate while Lancer takes part in both Saber vs Caster and Kiritsugu vs Keyneth (sp?).

Also, if the vast majority of anime were nearly as good as Fate/Zero, I'd probably watch far more anime on a regular basis. Fate/Zero avoids a lot of the pitfalls, cliches, and general pandering that have scared me away from the medium.

Once again - good for you.

[LunarMoon]

Originally Posted by Horse

#1 Where the hell did I say a fight should take a whole episode?
#2 I don't know what you're getting at. In my eyes those were very different cases. For example: the 3 fights in the last episodes are completely seperate while Lancer takes part in both Saber vs Caster and Kiritsugu vs Keyneth (sp?).

Originally Posted by Horse

Here's my simple suggestion: WHY NOT make the last 3 episodes happen at the same time? Have one episode for all the buildup and fighting of Rider and Gil, then all the buildup and fightan for Saber and Lancelot and all the buildup and fighting for Kirei and Kotomine. End them all at the same spot with the Grail - revealing only seconds more of the scene every week.

You want all the building up and fighting for Rider vs Gil in one episode, all the build up and fighting for Kiri vs Kotomine in another episode, and all the build-up and fighting for Lancelot vs Saber in another episode. If that's not what you're talking about, then I honestly have no clue what you're getting at.

Originally Posted by Horse

Once again - good for you.

Obviously my opinion means squat for the sales - the majority loves the show and I don't understand why.

Well, you did wonder how anyone could be enjoying the show, after all, so it seems strange for you to dismiss the answer.

[Horse]

Originally Posted by LunarMoon

Well, you did wonder how anyone could be enjoying the show, after all, so it seems strange for you to dismiss the answer.

And I still don't understand why someone would enjoy jumping around unrelated scenes when one is picking up momentum. Obviously you do so good for you.

Originally Posted by LunarMoon

You want all the building up and fighting for Rider vs Gil in one episode, all the build up and fighting for Kirei vs Kotomine in another episode, and all the build-up and fighting for Lancelot vs Saber in another episode. If that's not what you're talking about, then I honestly have no clue what you're getting at.

I still didn't say any fight should take more than 10 minutes, that's what you said. Actually didn't Iskandar vs Gil take over 10 minutes of airtime in #23? You're saying it's okay because it had an unrelated Saber moment inserted in between, right?

[LunarMoon]

Originally Posted by Horse

And I still don't understand why someone would enjoy jumping around unrelated scenes when one is picking up momentum. Obviously you do so good for you.

I still didn't say any fight should take more than 10 minutes, that's what you said. Actually didn't Iskandar vs Gil take over 10 minutes of airtime in #23? You're saying it's okay because it had an unrelated Saber moment inserted in between, right?

Yep; as with anything else, any individual fight is good in small doses, but I’d prefer not to stare at the same trading of blows for over ten minutes. I’d prefer to have more variety in my episodes.

[Horse]

Originally Posted by LunarMoon

Yep; as with anything else, any individual fight is good in small doses, but I’d prefer not to stare at the same trading of blows for over ten minutes. I’d prefer to have more variety in my episodes.

Then you could watch->pause->do something else->watch->pause->do stuff->so on because that's exactly what ufotable was doing in #23. I don't think that's good writing/direction.

And I guess we could leave it at that - just like Kiritsugu and Kirei can't come to an understanding in #24.

[Kaiba]

For me, there's also the fact that there's other scenes that while more important than loli-Rin, I think could have been cut out in favor of the Saber-Berserker battle. Kariya getting that worm shoved in him and Waver's scene with his grandpa are the first two I think of. They're good scenes, but I'd rather give that battle more time.