AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Related Topics > Manga

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2012-09-26, 06:52   Link #10641
summers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
God dammit I want to know what happened, but dont want to be spoiled, hurry up CXC!
You guys are talking about some trolling going on? Even though last chapter we saw A god like character get one-shotted. If that's not a troll then whatever is in those spoilers must be insane.

1. Medaka pwns in one page
2. This was all part of a plan and this guy is an illusion
3. Kumagawa oneshots(But then more people would be happy,so no)
4.He is of no threat and does not fight.
summers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-26, 09:49   Link #10642
Kurosu
KORA!!
*Scanlator
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Age: 27
Send a message via MSN to Kurosu
Quote:
Originally Posted by summers View Post
God dammit I want to know what happened, but dont want to be spoiled, hurry up CXC!
You guys are talking about some trolling going on? Even though last chapter we saw A god like character get one-shotted. If that's not a troll then whatever is in those spoilers must be insane.

1. Medaka pwns in one page
2. This was all part of a plan and this guy is an illusion
3. Kumagawa oneshots(But then more people would be happy,so no)
4.He is of no threat and does not fight.
Since you're being extra excited this week I'll humor you for a bit,
having seen the chapter, next week's chapter should be rather interesting.

Last edited by Kurosu; 2012-09-26 at 10:28.
Kurosu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-26, 10:04   Link #10643
Tyabann
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valid View Post
The latest TOC had Medaka Box placed in 6th - the highest its been all year
It's true, it DOES work!
Images
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?
Tyabann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-26, 19:43   Link #10644
Sol Falling
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
It's true, it DOES work!
Images
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?
More like it was the Jet-Black Wedding arc climax/ending. Accompanied with the revelation of Medaka's final strategy for the Shiritori game. If there was any chapter in that arc to get a high ranking, they could've chosen no better chapter than that one.

Of course, ratings for that entire arc were pretty terrible overall. Bottom 5 almost the entire way through, starting from pretty much the beginning; only to settle around 10th for two or three chapters just before the climax; and then only one chapter at all to make it into the upper ranges at number six with the ending. While we don't know for sure how this new arc is gonna turn out just yet, I'm expecting the first couple chapters to do quite well comparatively.
Sol Falling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-26, 20:21   Link #10645
Tyabann
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
More like it was the Jet-Black Wedding arc climax/ending. Accompanied with the revelation of Medaka's final strategy for the Shiritori game. If there was any chapter in that arc to get a high ranking, they could've chosen no better chapter than that one.
You mean one of the worst chapters in the manga to date? Well, that's just about what I'd expect, really.
Tyabann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-26, 20:46   Link #10646
Wolfenstein
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2012
That arc started out very well, promising, but soon declined into being horrible.

I have to agree, the end of the Jet-Black Wedding was one of the worst segments of the manga.
Wolfenstein is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-26, 22:14   Link #10647
[HearT]
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
I personally think that chapter was just placed rather than being what it really ranked, since Medaka is on the cover this week~
[HearT] is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-26, 22:22   Link #10648
Sol Falling
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 29
lol. The blatant disconnect between you guys' perceptions and the actual reception in Japan simply clearly shows that you don't really understand this manga. You don't understand its appeal, you don't understand its intentions, you don't even really understand the plot in terms of what's going on. Now, that isn't necessarily your fault; Nishio's stuff is always fairly convoluted in the first place and there are plenty of aspects of Medaka Box which might be said to be difficult to translate from Japanese. However, the joke that you guys would even presume to think that your highly subjective, ridiculously limited perspectives have any sort of objective weight on the quality of the series is plainly ridiculous.

Yeah, I can imagine you would think the Shiritori game was shit when you can't even be assed to pick up on and follow along the rules of a basic game of Shiritori. That doesn't say anything about the quality of the series, just your own complete lack of effort and ignorance.

If you can't even grasp the basic idea that a manga like Medaka Box isn't written for you, and that a high percentage of any supposed "shortcomings" you notice are actually your own inadequacies in being unable to comprehend the original intention and the native audience, then things are just hopeless for you.

Get over yourself, and scale back that judgemental personality. If something is (comparatively) well liked over in Japan, there's probably a significant reason for it, and you'd be well served trying to actually figure that reason out before you resort to "oh, the Japanese readers aren't exactly like me; they must be idiots" and start shitflinging.


Quote:
Originally Posted by [HearT] View Post
I personally think that chapter was just placed rather than being what it really ranked, since Medaka is on the cover this week~
Being featured on the cover isn't the same as having colour pages. Colour pages are basically when you get special pages within the magazine, and those are placed. It's often true that having the cover page corresponds to having the lead or center colour, but that isn't true in this case. Medaka Box and Gintama's rankings this week were their natural rankings.
Sol Falling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-26, 23:17   Link #10649
Wolfenstein
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
If something is (comparatively) well liked over in Japan, there's probably a significant reason for it, and you'd be well served trying to actually figure that reason out before you resort to "oh, the Japanese readers aren't exactly like me; they must be idiots" and start shitflinging.
Trust me, brah. I already know the reason!

http://badluckexpert.files.wordpress...ox-3390269.jpg



I mean, why do you think Medaka Box's percentage of male readers far outweighs that of the female's. Haha!

I think the fap-stain speaks for it'self, really. Japan isn't know for it's acquired taste, which is part of the reason One-Piece is the highest selling manga there.

Though, you can consider this my unserious "theory". I have no idea for why the Jet-Black Wedding was liked other than the chance to see some fanservice.

But being more serious now:

Medaka Box went from being a developed, charming narrative with dynamic, evolving conflicts and characters...to one with little-to-no coherence, extreme convolutedness, shallow character development, extremely boring conflicts and absolutely no satisfying closure.

I thought this manga was awesome, until the quickly bogging down of the Jet-Black Wedding arc. Totally not what Nishio promised us after chapter 140.

Trying to pass off the current manga as something "so deep that you just can't get It", to me, is just ridiculous. I don't feel that way at all. The charming character development and interesting plots/conflicts this manga had has seemingly evaporated, unfortunately.

Maybe you're just reading too much into the manga, and substituting your own interpretation of the story instead of what's actually there, which is actually vapid and shallow? I've done it with several fiction, really. It's just a desire to see said work acheive it's full potential in our view.

But hey, that's just my opinion on this manga's current state of affairs.

~~~

What really concerns me is that you're clearly flustered and perturbed that two people are agreeing on said opinion. Even more so is that you accuse us of thinking our opinion is objective, when that clearly is ridiculous when dealing with fiction and I never said it was, yet you assumed I felt that way.

I don't know about you, but in the forums I visited, most agreed that the Jet-Black Bride Arc was utter shit. Well, true that there were no japanese readers there, but this isn't some obscure opinion that is completely unjustified simply because japanese readers continued to buy the manga. Or are you saying Japanese readers have reached some state of intellectual enlightenment or something? That seems far-fetched when they might or might not be reading the manga for the same reason you are.

Calm down. That rant was unescessary - I just don't view this manga like you do, that's no reason to insult someone's intelligence and call them "ignorant". Have some decorum, please. I don't see anyone insulting your intelligence due to your opinion.

Last edited by Wolfenstein; 2012-09-27 at 00:32.
Wolfenstein is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-26, 23:25   Link #10650
DawnEmperor
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Somewhere
I can understand why you're frustrated Sol, but I think you're jumping into the other end of fallacious thinking. So just because you're not the intended audience means you're not allowed to judge its quality? Yes, I don't think insulting the Japanese for their tastes is very constructive in this instance, but it's not as if understanding the intentions of this manga will make people like it. Medaka Box is a manga worth analyzing and discussing, but that may not necessarily impact people liking it. Execution also plays a part. Sure, opinions of people on an anime forum aren't always the most well constructed, but it's still plays a part in viewing the series.

Geh, I must grudgingly admit you do stimulate discussion though.
DawnEmperor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-27, 00:41   Link #10651
Sol Falling
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
Trust me, brah. I already know the reason!

http://badluckexpert.files.wordpress...ox-3390269.jpg



I mean, why do you think Medaka Box's percentage of male readers far outweighs that of the female's. Haha!

I think the fap-stain speaks for it'self, really. Japan isn't know for it's acquired taste, which is part of the reason One-Piece is the highest selling manga there.
More wilful, judgemental ignorance. The "well-liked" chapter in question was the one corresponding with the latest decent ranking, namely the climax of the previous arc. Medaka Box's rankings historically have shown no particular correspondence with the level of fanservice.

Quote:
But being more serious now:

Medaka Box went from being a developed, charming narrative with dynamic, evolving conflicts and characters...to one with little-to-no coherence, extreme convolutedness, shallow character development, extremely boring conflicts and absolutely no satisfying closure.

I thought this manga was awesome, until the quickly bogging down of the Jet-Black Wedding arc. Totally not what Nishio promised us after chapter 140.

Trying to pass off the current manga as something "so deep that you just can't get It", to me, is just ridiculous. I don't feel that way at all. The charming character development and interesting plots/conflicts this manga had has seemingly evaporated, unfortunately.

Maybe you're just reading too much into the manga, and substituting your own interpretation of the story instead of what's actually there, which is actually vapid and shallow? I've done it with several fiction, really. It's just a desire to see said work acheive it's full potential in our view.

But hey, that's just my opinion on this manga's current state of affairs.
See, no, not really. I can see where that kind of issue influenced your point of view, because you obviously did really like where (you thought) the manga was going at one point in the past and then ended up disappointed (and also started jumping to crazy conclusions, imo, like the idea that Devil Style doesn't exist anymore). In that case you would probably be accurate to say that you read to much into it and had too high expectations, which weren't in line with the actual goal or intent of the manga. As a result of that burn, you're still sitting around complaining lately about how bad the manga is, when in reality it's just your emotional reaction to a severe and unfortunate misread of the direction the manga was going. I think if you had a clearer, more direct picture of what the manga was actually aiming for, like perhaps if you were a Japanese reader with their language and cultural background, you wouldn't be having these issues.

I'm not calling the current storyline "deep", either. My primary concern is if its entertaining. On some level that's because I know the exact nuances/workings of the explanations and the implications of Nishio's language can't be understood unless you have a naturalized Japanese fluency, some way to directly appreciate the source material. I prefer to trust that the explanation is there, and care most about whether the story is entertaining me in the present moment or not. On the occasions that I can afford to, I attempt to take a closer look at the text and draw out some of the more subtler nuances/meanings. These efforts are frequently fruitful.

(For example, when I casually went over the climax to the Black Wedding arc again earlier today, I noticed three things:
1. Momo's "trick the other two suitors into dropping their turns by speaking slowly" strategy meant that she had to distract people from the time for ~3 hours. However, although the dialogue shown in the chapter was nowhere near that much, that period actually included Momo's explanation of Medaka and Dr. Tsurubami's relationship/backstory. Thus making it somewhat more plausible that she filled up that time.
2. When Momo revealed that Medaka's strategy had involved controlling everybody so that nobody ever said the last three syllables, "u", "sa", and "n", she actually meant those three syllables in specific sequence. Not only is this actually verifiable from the (Japanese) text, but it was also that specific sequence which was required for Momo's last word ("kousan", surrender). Additionally, Medaka actually used that sequence in the very first Shiritori word which she used in setting up the strategy, "Ryuusanmu", after which point nobody else used it.
3. Torai mentioned that Medaka asking a bunch of detailed questions about the Shiritori game rules was to "induce the later plot". This was preceded by an earlier discussion from Wanizuka, etc. about whether or not ending a word with "n" on the last turn would make you disqualified. The revelation is, Medaka actually baited Momo to try to end her last word with "n" by purposely not clarifying that detail when she asked for rule explanations, which was part of how Medaka controlled/manipulated Momo into never using the syllables "u", "sa", or "n" until her last turn came up.)

The point is, yes, Nishio is very good at making entertaining twists that people can just enjoy brainlessly. That is one level to how Medaka Box has survived at all as a competitive manga, because you can't expect the Jump audience to generally read on the same level of Nishio's usual audience. However, another thing that Nishio is very good at is minute details. Attention to those details is what he is actually famous in his other writings for--particularly, it's specifically because of those details that it is common for him to be legitimately respected as an "epic troll". The way that Nishio's stories succeed is that, yes, on one level they manage to be entertaining even if you just forget and don't pay attention to the details. However, on the other level, when on occasion you actually do look for the details, it turns out they're actually there. In fact, Nishio often forces people to look at the details because that's precisely the sort of double punch which makes his works actually worth reading.

Quote:
What really concerns me is that you're clearly flustered and perturbed that two people are agreeing on said opinion. Even more so is that you accuse us of thinking our opinion is objective, when that clearly is ridiculous when dealing with fiction and I never said it was, yet you assumed I felt that way.

I don't know about you, but in the forums I visited, most agreed that the Jet-Black Bride Arc was utter shit. Well, true that there were no japanese readers there, but this isn't some obscure opinion that is completely unjustified simply because japanese readers continued to buy the manga. Or are you saying Japanese readers have reached some state of intellectual enlightenment or something? That seems far-fetched when they might or might not be reading the manga for the same reason you are.

Calm down. That rant was unescessary - I just don't view this manga like you do, that's no reason to insult someone's intelligence and call them "ignorant". Have some decorum, please. I don't see anyone insulting your intelligence due to your opinion.
If you don't think parts of my post applied to you, just ignore them. I grouped you and Kaisos Erainon together because it was expedient. If you want personalized counterarguments for your specific issues, I addressed them above. You also missed that I wasn't calling the Jet Black Wedding arc "objectively good" or anything myself either. The scope of discussion was specifically the chapter which got a good ranking. I myself was unimpressed by large chunks of that arc because I felt they focused too much on pointless conflicts with unimportant characters (for example, Naze's fight with Kanaino in particular lacked tension), and I was also pretty unimpressed with Medaka's characterization. It makes perfect sense to me that many people could find many parts of the Jet Black Wedding Arc unappealing. It's precisely because of the subjective nature of these kinds of judgements, and the incomplete nature of our understanding of Medaka Box natively, that it's better to pay legitimate attention to the particular chapters which did get a good ranking.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DawnEmperor View Post
I can understand why you're frustrated Sol, but I think you're jumping into the other end of fallacious thinking. So just because you're not the intended audience means you're not allowed to judge its quality? Yes, I don't think insulting the Japanese for their tastes is very constructive in this instance, but it's not as if understanding the intentions of this manga will make people like it. Medaka Box is a manga worth analyzing and discussing, but that may not necessarily impact people liking it. Execution also plays a part. Sure, opinions of people on an anime forum aren't always the most well constructed, but it's still plays a part in viewing the series.

Geh, I must grudgingly admit you do stimulate discussion though.
lol. I don't have a problem with people disliking Medaka Box. I have a problem with people throwing ignorant opinions around of it. If people have the capacity to discuss Medaka Box's demerits in a genuine manner, in the context of (i.e. with respect for) its function, aims, and target audience, then I am perfectly happy to do so. Westlo's occasional commentary on Medaka Box's stagnating sales, for example, are a genuine source of concern for me, although overall I am quite a bit more optimistic about Medaka Box's ultimate ability to improve or sustain itself. This recent fair performance in the TOC rankings is something to be glad about in that context, not negative.

Last edited by Sol Falling; 2012-09-27 at 00:54.
Sol Falling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-27, 00:46   Link #10652
[HearT]
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
@Sol;, thank you for saying that none of us can understand this manga and that none of us are smart of enough to even realize that we can't understand this manga :P

"Yeah, I can imagine you would think the Shiritori game was shit when you can't even be assed to pick up on and follow along the rules of a basic game of Shiritori."

I understood the Shiritori game perfectly well, and I still thought the arc was overall crap. Simply knowing japanese doesn't necessarily make this arc better, sure, the word users and the shiritori game had some clever moments, but that's like having a candy bar in a pile of pig slop, sure, candy bars are great, but you don't care about the candy bar when it's buried in pig crap. Just my opinion, of course, I just reaaaally didn't like this arc.


and yet with all of my complaints, I still buy the manga. weird, aren't I.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Being featured on the cover isn't the same as having colour pages. Colour pages are basically when you get special pages within the magazine, and those are placed. It's often true that having the cover page corresponds to having the lead or center colour, but that isn't true in this case. Medaka Box and Gintama's rankings this week were their natural rankings.
I realize this, I know how the toc typically works, but that doesn't mean that they can't place a chapter just because it doesn't have a color page. I'm sure they're perfectly capable of shifting around the order with or without a color page, it just seems suspicious that both Gintama and Medaka were in the bottom and then suddenly they're on the cover and they're ranked much higher




Edit: and of course you somehow managed to write a huge wall of text in the time it took me to write a short paragraph..., oO
[HearT] is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-27, 00:51   Link #10653
Valid
Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Fair enough that it has cover this week so its rankings might not bé ranked but you say it and gintama went from bottom to this rank is not true, these last few weeks medaka box has been just behind nisekoi and haikyuu so whos to say that when OP, Toriko and HQ are not ranked that it can't move up higher.
__________________
Valid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-27, 01:00   Link #10654
[HearT]
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valid View Post
Fair enough that it has cover this week so its rankings might not bé ranked but you say it and gintama went from bottom to this rank is not true, these last few weeks medaka box has been just behind nisekoi and haikyuu so whos to say that when OP, Toriko and HQ are not ranked that it can't move up higher.
also fair enough, It was just an observation I felt like pointing out :P of course I'd prefer Medaka Box to rank higher and do very well. I don't want the series to die, that's why I support it as much as I can by buying the manga/anime etc :P you guys are kinda making it sound like I want this series to crash and burn lolol
[HearT] is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-27, 01:38   Link #10655
Sol Falling
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by [HearT] View Post
@Sol;, thank you for saying that none of us can understand this manga and that none of us are smart of enough to even realize that we can't understand this manga :P

"Yeah, I can imagine you would think the Shiritori game was shit when you can't even be assed to pick up on and follow along the rules of a basic game of Shiritori."

I understood the Shiritori game perfectly well, and I still thought the arc was overall crap. Simply knowing japanese doesn't necessarily make this arc better, sure, the word users and the shiritori game had some clever moments, but that's like having a candy bar in a pile of pig slop, sure, candy bars are great, but you don't care about the candy bar when it's buried in pig crap. Just my opinion, of course, I just reaaaally didn't like this arc.


and yet with all of my complaints, I still buy the manga. weird, aren't I.




I realize this, I know how the toc typically works, but that doesn't mean that they can't place a chapter just because it doesn't have a color page. I'm sure they're perfectly capable of shifting around the order with or without a color page, it just seems suspicious that both Gintama and Medaka were in the bottom and then suddenly they're on the cover and they're ranked much higher




Edit: and of course you somehow managed to write a huge wall of text in the time it took me to write a short paragraph..., oO

I guess I should clarify, as a Kumagawa x Medaka fan, I also thought that the arc mostly sucked also. I was never talking about the arc as a whole. I was talking about the specific chapter which looks like it had a decent rank, which was the climax chapter. The point isn't about tastes, it's about understanding a good reason for the rank without jumping to "Japanese readers have shit taste/are stupid".

As for the cover issue, I guess I would just say that ultimately we don't really know. I don't know whether there's any precedence for actually reordering a chapter based on a cover, without any colour pages. If there actually is a precedent for that, then I guess that's another possibility.
Sol Falling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-27, 02:00   Link #10656
Tyabann
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Yeah, I can imagine you would think the Shiritori game was shit when you can't even be assed to pick up on and follow along the rules of a basic game of Shiritori. That doesn't say anything about the quality of the series, just your own complete lack of effort and ignorance.
Hey, I fucking love Shiritori. That was some hardcore Shiritori.
What was incredibly stupid was how Medaka manipulated the language used by everybody in the room, somehow, without any sort of real explanation behind how she did it. That, on top of how much of a kick in the balls her treatment of Zenkichi was at the end of the chapter, even after they kissed in front of the whole school, even after she accepted his marriage proposal, and even after he flew halfway around the world to find her. He at least deserved a goddamn "thank you".
But we've been through that before. It was a bad chapter because Medaka is not and has never been a particularly good character and only when that is the point (or when she doesn't appear at all) is the manga a worthwhile read.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
If you can't even grasp the basic idea that a manga like Medaka Box isn't written for you, and that a high percentage of any supposed "shortcomings" you notice are actually your own inadequacies in being unable to comprehend the original intention and the native audience, then things are just hopeless for you.
I wonder how far one's head has to be up one's ass to write something like this and actually believe it. A fiction being written with the intent of being read by Japanese readers does not invalidate my or anyone else's criticism of it.
And really, "it's brilliant you just don't get it" is the oldest poor defense in the book.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
I guess I should clarify, as a Kumagawa x Medaka fan
Also, as an aside, I'm of the opinion that this some of the most willfully blind shipping I have ever seen. Even Emukae had more of a chance with Zenkichi than that ever happening.
Tyabann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-27, 06:05   Link #10657
novalysis
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
My take is that Medaka used one of the skills in her arsenal, acquired through the end. Or Ajimu might have passed a skill to Medaka off-screen in relation to that.

Seriously, when you consider it, Medaka is all but an Ajimu Junior in many ways, with the huge collection of skills she's been picking up through "The End".
novalysis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-27, 07:54   Link #10658
Wolfenstein
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2012
So you're saying the fanservice has NOTHING to do with ratings? You don't think they might just buy the manga to see if there's some cute ass or something shown at that particular chapter? Hey, I don't know the reason they buy. Neither do you. I'm assuming, you're assuming. My assumption is just as valid.

~~~~

Sol, you realize you're literally saying I should've mistrusted the manga completely and not expected it to turn into "Zenkichi Box", when that's exactly what Nishio put in his ending for the past previous arc?

Are you really saying that? Are you really saying my "expectations were too high" or that "I was reading too much into it" so that I never saw the obvious coming?

No. The entire fucking manga was leading to the deconstruction of Medaka as a horrible character. The entire point of Zenkichi's character was to invalidate Medaka's ideology(beat her), something Kumagawa and Ajimu couldn't do. That all happened.

The manga that comes after reflects nothing of that. Since Medaka is still the main character(still as soul-crushingly boring as ever), Kumagawa is still tame, Zenkichi is still a lap-dog who won't even take a second glance at her obviously bad characteristics(such as the end of the Jet-Black Wedding arc. What the hell was Medaka's reaction? That was horrible. Just horrible.). The status quo hasn't changed.

And the previous arc was the showcase of that. And that's why it's horribly boring.

Really, you're literally saying "You should've seen that the manga, OBVIOUSLY, wasn't going to change, it's just too deep, you misread, didn't get it". Don't you realize you're just substituting your own thoughts into the story because Nishio left a giant gap in coherence due to trolling?

Nishio isn't deep or complex with what he did, he's just inconsistant.
Wolfenstein is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-27, 11:44   Link #10659
Tyabann
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 29
Spoiler for 164:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
No. The entire fucking manga was leading to the deconstruction of Medaka as a horrible character. The entire point of Zenkichi's character was to invalidate Medaka's ideology(beat her), something Kumagawa and Ajimu couldn't do. That all happened.

The manga that comes after reflects nothing of that. Since Medaka is still the main character(still as soul-crushingly boring as ever), Kumagawa is still tame, Zenkichi is still a lap-dog who won't even take a second glance at her obviously bad characteristics(such as the end of the Jet-Black Wedding arc. What the hell was Medaka's reaction? That was horrible. Just horrible.). The status quo hasn't changed.
Everything here, pretty much.
Tyabann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2012-09-27, 12:31   Link #10660
Sol Falling
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Hey, I fucking love Shiritori. That was some hardcore Shiritori.
What was incredibly stupid was how Medaka manipulated the language used by everybody in the room, somehow, without any sort of real explanation behind how she did it. That, on top of how much of a kick in the balls her treatment of Zenkichi was at the end of the chapter, even after they kissed in front of the whole school, even after she accepted his marriage proposal, and even after he flew halfway around the world to find her. He at least deserved a goddamn "thank you".
But we've been through that before. It was a bad chapter because Medaka is not and has never been a particularly good character and only when that is the point (or when she doesn't appear at all) is the manga a worthwhile read.
I posted some of the finer details of how Medaka manipulated the use of people's language in one of my posts above. Your impression of "without any sort of real explanation" is exactly the sort of failure in communication I was talking about. The fact that you assume "just because I didn't see anything there, there's nothing there" is extremely flawed when you consider the inherent obstacles you face in understanding the material the way a native reader would. While the Japanese readers are not perfect, their own perspectives should be assumed to be better-informed and more relevant than your own in any evaluation.

Also, trolling of the Zenkichi x Medaka romance is part of the point of this series. It's been going on from the very beginning. The minority of readers who haven't caught onto any of this/have chosen to ignore it and still actually support/enjoy the pairing is very small. It's no surprise that your anger over Medaka's supposed treatment of Zenkichi isn't particularly reflected by the audience.

Quote:
I wonder how far one's head has to be up one's ass to write something like this and actually believe it. A fiction being written with the intent of being read by Japanese readers does not invalidate my or anyone else's criticism of it.
And really, "it's brilliant you just don't get it" is the oldest poor defense in the book.

Also, as an aside, I'm of the opinion that this some of the most willfully blind shipping I have ever seen. Even Emukae had more of a chance with Zenkichi than that ever happening.
"You don't get it" doesn't imply "it's brilliant". It says "you don't get it", just that. At that point, it doesn't even matter whether it's "brilliant" or not, but rather whether you can even appreciate the story enough to want to keep reading it.

As for shipping, I'm a person who came out of the Lelouch x Shirley Code Geass shipping war on the winning side. When you've got a literary basis for the significance of your ship in the story, it pays to have some optimism. The question is not even whether or not Kumagawa will win anymore, Nishio has made clear he is going to explore this relationship in the series, and I am going to enjoy whatever he gives us regarding it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfenstein View Post
So you're saying the fanservice has NOTHING to do with ratings? You don't think they might just buy the manga to see if there's some cute ass or something shown at that particular chapter? Hey, I don't know the reason they buy. Neither do you. I'm assuming, you're assuming. My assumption is just as valid.
Sure, fanservice might be one of the reasons people read/buy Medaka Box. Fanservice alone has clearly never been enough to actually make Medaka Box popular, however. And the reason for not even considering fanservice at all in this case is that the chapter in question featured no particularly greater degree of fanservice than any other chapter.

Quote:
Sol, you realize you're literally saying I should've mistrusted the manga completely and not expected it to turn into "Zenkichi Box", when that's exactly what Nishio put in his ending for the past previous arc?

Are you really saying that? Are you really saying my "expectations were too high" or that "I was reading too much into it" so that I never saw the obvious coming?

No. The entire fucking manga was leading to the deconstruction of Medaka as a horrible character. The entire point of Zenkichi's character was to invalidate Medaka's ideology(beat her), something Kumagawa and Ajimu couldn't do. That all happened.

The manga that comes after reflects nothing of that. Since Medaka is still the main character(still as soul-crushingly boring as ever), Kumagawa is still tame, Zenkichi is still a lap-dog who won't even take a second glance at her obviously bad characteristics(such as the end of the Jet-Black Wedding arc. What the hell was Medaka's reaction? That was horrible. Just horrible.). The status quo hasn't changed.

And the previous arc was the showcase of that. And that's why it's horribly boring.

Really, you're literally saying "You should've seen that the manga, OBVIOUSLY, wasn't going to change, it's just too deep, you misread, didn't get it". Don't you realize you're just substituting your own thoughts into the story because Nishio left a giant gap in coherence due to trolling?

Nishio isn't deep or complex with what he did, he's just inconsistant.
The root of your problem is that you projected your dislike for Medaka and desire for Zen to become the "real" MC onto the actual manga. In reality Nishio's intention was only to develop Zenkichi into a main character, because not many people over in Japan actually hate Medaka, and nobody in particular wants her to be replaced (at least by Zen, in any case). I do think you got really carried away and didn't see the obvious coming. You became influenced by the general sentiments/beliefs of the western community that "Medaka sux" and "Zen should/is going to become an alpha MC" were reflective of the opinions/intent in the actual manga/audience. Because you were only exposed to a community who only wanted the same thing you did, you started to expect a massive change as opposed to an incremental step. The fact is that Zenkichi's "MCness" did level up ever since the Not Equals arc, but it was delusional to ever think that he was gonna legitimately replace Medaka. This point has nothing to do with Medaka Box being deep or anything, only the simple reality of Medaka Box's actual audience over in Japan, and the complete delusional absurdity of the idea that Nishio wrote 140 fucking chapters of a manga with Medaka as the main character without believing that Medaka was a sufficiently good main character.
Sol Falling is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
action, comedy, harem, nishio, romance, shounen, student council

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 19:32.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
We use Silk.