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Old 2014-09-22, 11:30   Link #10601
whitecloud
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you forgot something...about phantom, and possibility of the existence of other (original) timeline from which phantom originated from, and her connection with shidou plus her motivation which maybe because some bad ending in that (original) timeline
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Old 2014-09-22, 11:46   Link #10602
novalysis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whitecloud View Post
you forgot something...about phantom, and possibility of the existence of other (original) timeline from which phantom originated from, and her connection with shidou plus her motivation which maybe because some bad ending in that (original) timeline
Phantom has been speculated half to death in the past few pages. I don't see the reason for touching on it, when so many others have done so, very thoroughly.
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Old 2014-09-22, 12:24   Link #10603
Rogue66
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I like how phantom has been show a bit more in this volume especially that line she said to shido, I really hope this confirms that she does not plan anything bad for shido, but i expect will see more conflict between phantom and Wescott as it seem they know about each other

By the way does anyone think that theses a possibility that her true form mite be a older version of Rinne.
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Old 2014-09-22, 12:32   Link #10604
Nvis
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It's not how Origami received her Sephira crystal in the new timeline, but when.

When original timeline Origami attacked Phantom 5 years ago, she can pretty much know who she gave the crystal to in the future with some little investigation. So by deduction, it was sometime near the end of her AST years since that's when she started "blacking" out and was forced to retire.
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Old 2014-09-22, 13:47   Link #10605
wm4
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A point is that the author uses a fixed timeline instead of multiple timeline
as his approach. It's not a parallel world scenario.

What was done, by the combined efforts of Kurumi and Shidou, is throwing
away the "original world". What actually happen, IMHO, is by somehow
they managed to reduce the original world to a "virtual timeline", which can't be
existed along with the 'new world' at the same time, but there're still
same ways to make it consistent. One of them is by altering/rationing
this world as "dream" - you just had a bad dream in with Origami wreaking
havoc the world, then you wake up and nothing happened. Since it's a
dream most people will forget it, or (if they didn't), didn't take it very seriously.

* In short, everything up to Volume 10 did happened once. they just turned
the original world into a dream.

Mm, finally I understand why he called Kurumi's Nightmare, not a (more)
time-related names. But a nightmare isn't just a bad thing, right? Especially
in this scenario, you had a nightmare, but tomorrow is alright .

The author once said that it was the original plot he was planning since the
beginning. It just looks like that his statement is pretty trustable now.

By judging from the results, the fact is that they changed the world, but not
really much. Basically everything is not changed, just some minor amendments,
Origami is still a spirit, and by looking at it, she is still going to wrecking havoc.
The actually results was that Kurumi and Shidou did buy some time so
Shidou had the time to work out with Origami in the current time.

OTOH, for Origami, she was living a miserable life, and finally hitting a
sad fate that she can't totally deal with it. This is why she ended up
being unresponsive in Vol 10. But after Shidou messed with it, it ended
up becoming a very bad dreams she had one night, and it becomes an
valuable thought experiment for her ("What will I do if it really happens?")
That's an important thing for Shidou being able to seal her, because this
time Origami is more prepared and so she's more vulnerable.

----
In another point of view, the author's theory is that "time travel" is a book, or
just a dream, but in this case there're some special properties. There's no
limitations to what you can do in it, but at the end it's just a dream in the
other night, good or bad. That's why Shidou ended up waking up like usual.
Simply saying, there are no such thing as "the past". In theory it shouldn't
be possible to remove the event in the Vol 10 last chapter (and it looked
like that it's very possible to happen again if things don't improve), so
it was a miracle that they can turn it into a furture problem, not now,
so while they can't really change the past, they can still change the future.

In this logic, Kurumi's plan to stop the first Spacequake tragedy
is deemed to backfire, because the world is highly faithful to the
original story, it will alter itself to restore every big events no matter
how much she would change. Even if she stopped it, it will just happen
later.

So for the question that how Origami became a spirit in the "new world",
the simple answer is: it happened when Phantom made her one in Vol 10,
and it carried over in the following days since the world isn't so new.

Last edited by wm4; 2014-09-22 at 14:09.
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Old 2014-09-22, 14:10   Link #10606
novalysis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nvis View Post
It's not how Origami received her Sephira crystal in the new timeline, but when.

When original timeline Origami attacked Phantom 5 years ago, she can pretty much know who she gave the crystal to in the future with some little investigation. So by deduction, it was sometime near the end of her AST years since that's when she started "blacking" out and was forced to retire.
I'm talking from the perspective of Kurumi. Since the ramifications of time travel is central to Kurumi's agenda, it's not just the when, but also the how of this new time-line that she's interested in finding out. (The Whom and Why is known to her, but when, what and how is not.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by wm4 View Post
A point is that the author uses a fixed timeline instead of multiple timeline
as his approach. It's not a parallel world scenario.

I take it you are referring to Ars Install and Rin Utopia as references to how time works in Date a Live, and how time travel in the main DaL novels are consistent with that picture?

Quote:
* In short, everything up to Volume 10 did happened once. they just turned
the original world into a dream.
Which basically means that the original Shidou, after eating Origami's attacks was physically liquidated (along with the entire time-line", and his "save data"(ie: memories, personality, and such) is instead imported to the new Shidou when certain conditions were triggered? That in itself produces some interesting potential problems down the line.

But if there is a tendecy for the time-line to correct itself, there may well be another boot ready to drop on-top of Shidou and his Spirits.




Quote:
The author once said that it was the original plot he was planning since the
beginning. It just looks like that his statement is pretty trustable now.
The question is where he will go from there. My impression was that this part of the story was as far as his initial story plans went, which means that we are reaching Terra Incognita so to speak. Phantom and Kurumi seems intergal to the next stage, indeed, the live test of the Twelfth Bullet, I suspect, would be central to Kurumi's next moves.

Technically, Origami owns Kurumi big time, so I do think that Kurumi would have no problems using the tenth bullet on Origami, so long as Kurumi asks nicely (and if Mana is still the same here, so long as Mana isn't nearby).

Quote:
By judging from the results, the fact is that they changed the world, but not
really much. Basically everything is not changed, just some minor amendments,
Origami is still a spirit, and by looking at it, she is still going to wrecking havoc.
The actually results was that Kurumi and Shidou did buy some time so
Shidou had the time to work out with Origami in the current time.
However, we know that new Origami is quite a different person from "old save" Origami, (assuming DaL is thinking in VN terms). So, there's alot of interesting tings that can be done with that synthesis.

Furthermore, Origami's rampage was more or less spread out in this time-line, and presumably inflicted on evacuated, empty cities. Not thousands if not millions of Civilians who have not yet made it to the shelters. Which is probably what happened in Tengu City in the original time-line. Big difference here - the setting was reset after the author set it on fire the previous volume.
----
Quote:
In another point of view, the author's theory is that "time travel" is a book
I do think that DaL timeline runs on VN logic, but that's just the lens that I think is easier to view DaL in.

Quote:
In this logic, Kurumi's plan to stop the first Spacequake tragedy
is deemed to backfire, because the world is highly faithful to the
original story, it will alter itself to restore every big events no matter
how much she would change. Even if she stopped it, it will just happen
later.
By this logic true, but also by this logic, Shidou and Kurumi's actions ought to have consequences. Especially since Origami seems to have been written out of the new time-line, till Volume 11. Which has quite alot of implications on the time-line, some small, but some large. I do think that Inverse Origami killed Adeptus 3 - Jessica during the Miku arc.

Still, no matter what, they are huge implications for Kurumi - I do think she is most interested in finding just out how much could be changed.

Quote:
So for the question that how Origami became a spirit in the "new world",
the simple answer is: it happened when Phantom made her one in Vol 10,
and it carried over in the following days since the world isn't so new.
Unfortunately, if your whole case rests upon the assumption that Origami became a Spirit right on schedule, this contradicts alot of details in this new, rewritten time-line that the summaries are revealing. Let's start with the fact that until November in the New World, Origami never met up with Shidou again. Now, if she was in the AST until Volume 10 (which is just a few days ago), then the Devil would have only been active for a few days at most, not what has been implied to be months.

Also, there's the detail that "Inversed" Origami thrashed Natsumi rather badly during the rewritten Natsumi arc. Unless those summaries are mistaken. The "Devil" from what I can tell seems to have operated far longer than the mere 48 or 72 hours Origami has been a Spirit for in the old Time-line.
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Old 2014-09-22, 14:21   Link #10607
Miraluka
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That would explain that on who took down the third Humpty Dumpty from DEM.

Origami reacted to the spirits, blacked out and went for them, HD was in he way so she took it down.
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Old 2014-09-22, 16:05   Link #10608
ZodiacBeast
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I was just goofing around and thought up something that could be interesting if it happened...or not.

1. This assumes a sixth spirit with the power of electricity, and thus brain waves, as well as assuming that the info finding abilities of the organizations involved in the story really suck.
2. The sixth spirit, upon the orders of Phantom, alters the perception of those in the area when Shidou and Origami are in the past, leading Origami to believe that she killed her parents and thus making her go Inverse in the present.
3. Origami's parents are found to be alive after she is sealed and it is revealed that they remember nothing about her.
4. Origami's parents have adopted a little girl whom they have named "Origami" and believe that she has always been their daughter.
5. Origami refuses to see her parents again after it is revealed that they are alive as she does not want to cause confusion and strife.
6. She resolves to become a stronger person yet still perverted yada yada yada.
7. The End.
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Old 2014-09-22, 16:16   Link #10609
Seeker213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZodiacBeast View Post
I was just goofing around and thought up something that could be interesting if it happened...or not.

1. This assumes a sixth spirit with the power of electricity, and thus brain waves, as well as assuming that the info finding abilities of the organizations involved in the story really suck.
2. The sixth spirit, upon the orders of Phantom, alters the perception of those in the area when Shidou and Origami are in the past, leading Origami to believe that she killed her parents and thus making her go Inverse in the present.
3. Origami's parents are found to be alive after she is sealed and it is revealed that they remember nothing about her.
4. Origami's parents have adopted a little girl whom they have named "Origami" and believe that she has always been their daughter.
5. Origami refuses to see her parents again after it is revealed that they are alive as she does not want to cause confusion and strife.
6. She resolves to become a stronger person yet still perverted yada yada yada.
7. The End.
Yeah interesting idea. but it's clearly said in the msnkkan summary for volume 11, that the new timelines Origami's parents died in a traffic accident a year after the fire happened.
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Old 2014-09-22, 16:18   Link #10610
ZodiacBeast
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Originally Posted by Seeker213 View Post
Yeah interesting idea. but it's clearly said in the msnkkan summary for volume 11, that the new timelines Origami's parents died in a traffic accident a year after the fire happened.

I did forget about that, but I just made up my own little scenario, I wasn't really going by what actually happened. Also, I was trying to work in a fixed timeline.

I guess it would have made sense and would be more tragic for Origami if she found out that she didn't really kill them...but then they died anyways.

Hmm...

1. Sixth spirit with the power of electricity, and thus brain waves
2. The sixth spirit, upon the orders of Phantom, alters the perception of those in the area when Shidou and Origami are in the past, leading Origami to believe that she killed her parents and thus making her go Inverse in the present.
3. Origami finds out after she is sealed (since her memories change?) that she didn't kill her parents but that they died a year afterwards anyways.

...wait, crap, this is indeed where the fixed timeline falls apart. If Origami knew that her parents died in a car accident, then why would she think they died in a spirit attack? ARRRRRRRRRRRRGH
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Old 2014-09-22, 16:28   Link #10611
wm4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by novalysis View Post
Which basically means that the original Shidou, ....to the new Shidou ....
You assumed that there's a "new" Shidou?
Quote:
Unfortunately, if your whole case rests upon the assumption
that Origami became a Spirit right on schedule, this contradicts alot of
details in this new, rewritten time-line that the summaries are revealing.
....
It doesn't mean that the New World must be parallel to the original world,
it's the point. The original world, from 5 years ago to the November,
was abandoned and the New World replaced it after that point, at which
Origami had already met Phantom "5 years ago in the New World",
and when she woke up at "the next day", she would rationalize the
history of the new 5 years and concluded that the previous world
was something else.

It also explained why the spirits still has (power) connections to
Shidou, because they were just carried over from the "checkpoint."

Last edited by wm4; 2014-09-22 at 16:43.
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Old 2014-09-22, 16:59   Link #10612
LeWLWuT
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Well, well, looks like most of you still think it's a fixed timeline scenario. How many times, now? It's not a fixed timeline, because if it were, then Origami becoming a spirit was supposed to happen. But it's not; Kurumi said so.

Now, let's see. There are two timelines: the original one, and the altered one. I say altered because it's not really new at all. It's not a parallel world. It's basically the same room with the furniture arranged.

What am I getting at? This is a dynamic timeline. A dynamic one. And this is necessary because this type of timeline spawns paradoxes. Here's a paradox:
Origami hates spirits because her parents were killed by one. So she vowed to kill any spirit in her way, but she was powerless. So she became one and went back in time to kill the spirit that killed her parents. Turns out she was the one who killed her parents, and she herself was the one responsible for all spirit hatred.

For a more elaborate one, picture this: Shidou pushed Origami's parents aside at the last second. Where did his body go? Simple answer: it's gone! It vanished. His consciousness was unharmed however, and went back to the original timeline. Except that he was able to change history.

Ahhh, now we're getting somewhere. Before he saved her parents, he did one thing: he let Kotori become a spirit first. This ensures that he still meets the others when he comes back. He's "preserving" some elements from the original timeline. So his consciousness went to the altered timeline where he still has a body, but at the time he went back to the past in the original timeline, because his body was disintegrated.

Well then, what's with all that confusing time travel mechanics we have here? Why is fate taking over? Basically, Shidou is an intruder from a different time. Since he altered history, everything starts to conform to his original timeline, like white blood cells producing antibodies to protect the body from a virus. This could explain why Origami went back to being a spirit. To put it in another way, this altered timeline is sick, and Shidou managed to infect it with elements from his timeline, where Origami is still an Inversed spirit.

What do you think? Do the paradoxes still come unresolved? Well, why don't we destroy the time machine? It would undo everything the time traveler did. Kurumi must die so that we won't be dealing with this time travel roller coaster. At least, that's my stand.
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Old 2014-09-22, 17:04   Link #10613
ZodiacBeast
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Originally Posted by LeWLWuT View Post
Well, well, looks like most of you still think it's a fixed timeline scenario. How many times, now? It's not a fixed timeline, because if it were, then Origami becoming a spirit was supposed to happen. But it's not; Kurumi said so.
Are you referring to me? I was simply trying to see if I could fit the events into a fixed timeline. It's obvious that that's not what actually happened.
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Old 2014-09-22, 19:44   Link #10614
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Yeah it couldn't be a fixed timeline because there would have been two Shidous in the area of the blast: the one who pushed Origami's parents out of the way and the one who comforted Origami who just lost her parents - a paradox. It didn't happen that way in the story. It was still the current timeline based on Origami's history until Past Kurumi's 12th bullet hit Shidou which moved it to Shidou's timeline and temporarily erasing his existence from Origami's.

Also, the second twelfth bullet's effect never wore off unless the first bullet's effect wearing off implied it.
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Old 2014-09-22, 19:52   Link #10615
Miraluka
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That's overwriting the saved data once you're successful.
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Old 2014-09-22, 20:09   Link #10616
novalysis
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Originally Posted by Miraluka View Post
That's overwriting the saved data once you're successful.
I think that's probably one of the best analogies to understand what exactly happened in Volume 11.

But still, having memories of two different timelines running side by side should lead to quite abit of dissonance - perhaps not so much for the rest of the Spirits, but the differences in Origami's memories must be extremely dramatic. And once more, I wonder whether Shidou's lack of memories of the new time-line between meeting Tohka and November 11th is going to spring some unexpected surprises subsequently.

Or whether inverse Origami ensured that events that might prove too divergent in Origami's absence (the shooting of Tohka, that series of aerial battles above the Tengu City cultural festival where Origami was one of the major players, etc....) ended up with the same outcomes.

And if Inverse Origami had shown up to stand in for Origami's original role in the captures of every Spirit from Tohka to Natsumi, I can imagine each capture actually being even more chaotic than originally.

For example , Origami shooting Shidou in Tokha's capture is replaced with Inverse Origami striking Shidou with one of those feathers, Inverse Origami this time is the main reason why Yoshino hid in her huge snow barrier during the end of her arc, Inverse Origami reduced the number of Bandersnatches that could interfere with the Yamai Twin capture to a manageable number, Inverse Origami ensuring that the DEM Capture squad during Miku's arc was delayed long enough for events down on the ground to play out the same way as before, etc.
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Old 2014-09-22, 22:16   Link #10617
ZodiacBeast
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Could somebody give me a run down of the extra BD minutes so far? I know we're only on volume 3 and volume 4 comes out on 9/26, but a post before talked about the extra content as if they had knowledge of all volumes.
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Old 2014-09-22, 22:44   Link #10618
Miraluka
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Originally Posted by ZodiacBeast View Post
Could somebody give me a run down of the extra BD minutes so far? I know we're only on volume 3 and volume 4 comes out on 9/26, but a post before talked about the extra content as if they had knowledge of all volumes.
It's on DAL website.
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Old 2014-09-22, 22:48   Link #10619
ZodiacBeast
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Originally Posted by Miraluka View Post
It's on DAL website.
The Japanese site, right? I'll go check it out.
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Old 2014-09-23, 00:14   Link #10620
clarkken228
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After rereading DAL, i wonder why the author always uses phases like "Tohka and the others", "Tohka and the spirits", "Tohka and the girls"... They appeared with an unusual rate. Did they imply something? Like Tohka is a different being unlike the other?
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