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Old 2012-09-27, 12:44   Link #10661
Vigo
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Yes how dare we uneducated peasants say anything when we clearly don't understand this manga. Please enlighten us oh almighty Sol and share your wisdom. Help us get rid of our ignorance because it's clearly that you understand everything and can grasp everything about Medaka Box and Nishio.

Get your head out of your ass and stop pretending you know anything. Unless you are Nishio I don't want to hear crap like "you don't understand" or "you can't comprehend". The don't understand defence is as embarrassing as it's stupid. Can't believe you wrote that with a straight face.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
If something is (comparatively) well liked over in Japan, there's probably a significant reason for it, and you'd be well served trying to actually figure that reason out before you resort to
That's a good one. I lol'd

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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
This point has nothing to do with Medaka Box being deep or anything, only the simple reality of Medaka Box's actual audience over in Japan, and the complete delusional absurdity of the idea that Nishio wrote 140 fucking chapters of a manga with Medaka as the main character without believing that Medaka was a sufficiently good main character.
oh boy...
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Old 2012-09-27, 12:49   Link #10662
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So, Iihiko sure hits hard
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Old 2012-09-27, 12:51   Link #10663
Vigo
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Originally Posted by Kurosu View Post
So, Iihiko sure hits hard
That's why I can't imagine that Oudo is the one to defeat him.
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Old 2012-09-27, 13:09   Link #10664
Tenchi Hou Take
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Oh I just got it. Next chapter a color page about animes second season, primary antagonist Oudo, Oudo's reintroduction.
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Old 2012-09-27, 13:13   Link #10665
Vigo
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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
Oh I just got it. Next chapter a color page about animes second season, primary antagonist Oudo, Oudo's reintroduction.
Where did the first season stop? Before the flask plan arc?
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Old 2012-09-27, 13:28   Link #10666
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Originally Posted by Vigo View Post
Where did the first season stop? Before the flask plan arc?
it just about after medaka beating unzen.

i bet S2 will end with kumagawa introduction
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Old 2012-09-27, 13:32   Link #10667
Sol Falling
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The anime reintroduction is pretty cool and all, but I hope there's actually a good in-story reason for what's been happening lately in the story. In particular, because

Spoiler for the 164 spoilers:
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Old 2012-09-27, 13:41   Link #10668
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If Medaka is designated to be the RPG "hero" of the story than perhaps IIhiko is the designated "demon lord"?
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Old 2012-09-27, 13:53   Link #10669
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I think this quote shows what Nishio is really doing : that the human heart in conflict with itself is the only thing worth writing about. (William Faulkner)
just like many other writers like George R.R. Martin are trying to do.
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Old 2012-09-27, 14:15   Link #10670
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ziggi92 View Post
I think this quote shows what Nishio is really doing : that the human heart in conflict with itself is the only thing worth writing about. (William Faulkner)
just like many other writers like George R.R. Martin are trying to do.
Funny how the Daenerys chapters in Dance are generally agreed-upon as being the worst thing he has ever written.
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Originally Posted by Kurosu View Post
So, Iihiko sure hits hard
It makes one wonder exactly how the Shiranui control him.
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
While the Japanese readers are not perfect, their own perspectives should be assumed to be better-informed and more relevant than your own in any evaluation.
Listen, you're making it out to be much more complicated than it actually is; the manga tells us WHAT Medaka did to manipulate the language used in the room, but not HOW.
I would have no problem if it was justified as her using The End to mimic and 120% what the suitors were doing, but it's not presented that way and nor should we assume that was the intention without any basis to go on.
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
When you've got a literary basis for the significance of your ship in the story, it pays to have some optimism.
What bloody literary basis? What the fuck?
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Also, trolling of the Zenkichi x Medaka romance is part of the point of this series. It's been going on from the very beginning. The minority of readers who haven't caught onto any of this/have chosen to ignore it and still actually support/enjoy the pairing is very small.
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
the complete delusional absurdity of the idea that Nishio wrote 140 fucking chapters of a manga with Medaka as the main character without believing that Medaka was a sufficiently good main character.
Let me turn your own argument back on you, ignoring for a moment the fact that Medaka spends quite of a bit of the manga in an antagonistic role: Do you really think any writer would spend 140 fucking chapters of a manga setting up a relationship just for the sake of "trolling"?
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Old 2012-09-27, 14:55   Link #10671
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Readers: "The story is cool...but with those 3 monsters there's no real sense of threat...even the dead can be easily brought back to life and damage repaired, plus nobody can match Medaka in a fight..."

Nishio: "Hey, meet Iihiko...have fun."
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Old 2012-09-27, 15:06   Link #10672
orangejuicetang
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Actually, there was something that I remembered about Oudo when I read the spoilers that I was wondering about, and that thought was reinforced when I actually read the chapter.

In other words, Iihiko is the 'irreversible destroyer', or something along those lines.

The thing that struck me, was way back, in chapter 116 now that I check, when Ajimu was describing Medaka's previous enemies, she goes 'Chairman of the public disciplinary committee, Unzen Miyouri, Creator Miyakonojou Oudo, and the incomplete Kumagawa Misogi'. That description always did strike me as somewhat odd. Unzen's title is pretty obvious, and Kumagawa's kind of makes sense, but 'Creator' just seemed kind of random to describe Oudo. If you think about his role/personality/actions, 'king' might have been better, but Ajimu described him with 'creator'. I didn't really put as much thought into it back then, but now with a new character iihiko who is a 'Destroyer', if Nisio deliberately had Ajimu call Oudo 'creator' to sort of foreshadow his eventual role in this arc and go more in depth in what a 'creator' is, I'd be seriously impressed.

Of course, since this is Nisio, I might be totally off.
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Old 2012-09-27, 15:12   Link #10673
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orangejuicetang View Post
Actually, there was something that I remembered about Oudo when I read the spoilers that I was wondering about, and that thought was reinforced when I actually read the chapter.

In other words, Iihiko is the 'irreversible destroyer', or something along those lines.

The thing that struck me, was way back, in chapter 116 now that I check, when Ajimu was describing Medaka's previous enemies, she goes 'Chairman of the public disciplinary committee, Unzen Miyouri, Creator Miyakonojou Oudo, and the incomplete Kumagawa Misogi'. That description always did strike me as somewhat odd. Unzen's title is pretty obvious, and Kumagawa's kind of makes sense, but 'Creator' just seemed kind of random to describe Oudo. If you think about his role/personality/actions, 'king' might have been better, but Ajimu described him with 'creator'. I didn't really put as much thought into it back then, but now with a new character iihiko who is a 'Destroyer', if Nisio deliberately had Ajimu call Oudo 'creator' to sort of foreshadow his eventual role in this arc and go more in depth in what a 'creator' is, I'd be seriously impressed.

Of course, since this is Nisio, I might be totally off.
Well, Create was his project name
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Old 2012-09-27, 15:16   Link #10674
orangejuicetang
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was it? then that might have been it. There I go, embarrassing myself for not remembering things from the flask plan >.>
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Old 2012-09-27, 15:19   Link #10675
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Listen, you're making it out to be much more complicated than it actually is; the manga tells us WHAT Medaka did to manipulate the language used in the room, but not HOW.
I would have no problem if it was justified as her using The End to mimic and 120% what the suitors were doing, but it's not presented that way and nor should we assume that was the intention without any basis to go on.
The manga gives hints as to how. 1. The specific sequence Medaka stopped people from saying, "usan", was used in Medaka's own word at the start of the trick ("Ryuusanmu"). 2. Through her calculated questions about the rules, Medaka tempted Momo (who was said to have a "bad personality") to aim for one of the loopholes Medaka didn't clarify. By knowing Momo's goal, Medaka manipulated Momo's Shiritori word choices, guiding Momo to the point where her only syllables left were "u", "sa", and "n".

These are just a couple of hints I picked up from rereading the chapters in English again, I'm sure there are many more subtleties/causal connections you could make if you read it in Japanese.

Quote:
What bloody literary basis? What the fuck?
The narrative themes, etc., basically. We're not at a particularly relevant point in the story right now so I dunno if I'm prepared to just list off an analysis, but basically think about questions like "what is ultimately Medaka's human story?", "what struggles/concepts does Kumagawa represent?", etc. The beginning of everything we've seen for Medaka Box as a story so far (except for this latest Shiranui arc and the Not Equals characters) is pretty much Medaka's meeting with Zenkichi as a child in the hospital. At that same period, Medaka met child Kumagawa as well. The words that Kumagawa spoke at that time: "Humans are born for no reason; live unrelated; and die worthlessly" represents one perspective of reality. The alternative that young (naive) Zenkichi provided Medaka, "I'm sure you were born to help people", ended up saving Kumagawa. The human struggle Medaka is living with is finding herself after abandoning the overly-idealistic, humanly unsustainable purpose Zenkichi gave to her. The human struggle that Kumagawa embodies is continuing to find the will to fight, and live, and struggle for the sake of winning even despite knowing the hopelessness/distortion of the idealism which saved him. Both Kumagawa and Medaka are lost between the void of the blank cynicism Kumagawa expressed as a child and the blinding, inhuman optimism Zenkichi gave Medaka. The resolution of both of them into humans with a strong, healthy resolution towards reality and to life (i.e. presumably their characterizations by the end of the series) is a long journey throughout which their companionship would be absolutely complementary.

As a person to teach Medaka what being a human means--particularly the weak, painful and ugly parts of it--there is no better person than Kumagawa. And as a person to teach Kumagawa how to be strong, love others and fight adversity, there is no better person than Medaka. In the context of all the characters' journey of characterization as a whole, there is no better outcome.


Quote:
Let me turn your own argument back on you, ignoring for a moment the fact that Medaka spends quite of a bit of the manga in an antagonistic role: Do you really think any writer would spend 140 fucking chapters of a manga setting up a relationship just for the sake of "trolling"?
Nishio's portrayal of Zenkichi and Medaka's relationship thus far, has all been for the sake of character development. The aim of this character development is to address some of the greater themes of humanity. One of Zenkichi's principle themes is his ultimate optimism. That aspect of him is so strong it survived even the thrashing and challenge it received from Ajimu's breakdown of his character during the Not Equals arc. If one of the core defining features of Zenkichi is his positive belief in life despite any circumstances, then it makes sense for him to survive even the final challenge of giving up his love for Medaka.

Zenkichi's former love for Medaka was a symbol of the externalism of Zenkichi's optimism. Before Ajimu forced him to reform himself, Zenkichi's belief in the "Plus"ness of the world was intrinsically connected to Medaka. Whenever anything represented a threat to Medaka, all of Zenkichi's friendliness and positive belief in people turned into antagonism and hate. Medaka was a symbol for Zenkichi's positive belief in the world.

After Ajimu made Zenkichi realize how he was separate from Medaka, he lost his optimism for a brief time. However, he eventually gained it back in a manner which was separate from the way he was treated by Medaka, or his (present) relationship with her. Zenkichi formed a resolution for a positive belief towards the world independent of external factors, which is fully symbolized by the existence and significance of his skill, Devil Style. Now Zenkichi believes "even if Medaka isn't with me now, she'll be there tomorrow". However, when Zenkichi's characterization reaches the point that he can believe in the meaning/worth of the world, even without the condition that he must someday (romantically) be with Medaka, then his character development will be complete. Basically, the only point at which we will be able to truly describe Zenkichi's character as strong, is when his faith in others/the world and his positive belief in life are completely independent of Medaka.

Basically, the premise these analyses have been based on is this:
Medaka Box is not a story about love or romance. It is a story about humanity and character development. That's why there is no absolute dictum making Medaka x Zenkichi necessary.

Last edited by Sol Falling; 2012-09-27 at 15:32.
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Old 2012-09-27, 15:22   Link #10676
Sol Falling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orangejuicetang View Post
Actually, there was something that I remembered about Oudo when I read the spoilers that I was wondering about, and that thought was reinforced when I actually read the chapter.

In other words, Iihiko is the 'irreversible destroyer', or something along those lines.

The thing that struck me, was way back, in chapter 116 now that I check, when Ajimu was describing Medaka's previous enemies, she goes 'Chairman of the public disciplinary committee, Unzen Miyouri, Creator Miyakonojou Oudo, and the incomplete Kumagawa Misogi'. That description always did strike me as somewhat odd. Unzen's title is pretty obvious, and Kumagawa's kind of makes sense, but 'Creator' just seemed kind of random to describe Oudo. If you think about his role/personality/actions, 'king' might have been better, but Ajimu described him with 'creator'. I didn't really put as much thought into it back then, but now with a new character iihiko who is a 'Destroyer', if Nisio deliberately had Ajimu call Oudo 'creator' to sort of foreshadow his eventual role in this arc and go more in depth in what a 'creator' is, I'd be seriously impressed.

Of course, since this is Nisio, I might be totally off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by orangejuicetang View Post
was it? then that might have been it. There I go, embarrassing myself for not remembering things from the flask plan >.>
This might actually play into a legitimate reason for Oudo's involvement in the plot-line though. Although I don't particularly think Oudo's title is literal. Still, this is really interesting, great catch!
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Old 2012-09-27, 15:51   Link #10677
Tyabann
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Originally Posted by Kurosu View Post
Well, Create was his project name
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Originally Posted by orangejuicetang View Post
was it? then that might have been it. There I go, embarrassing myself for not remembering things from the flask plan >.>
It's still worth thinking about; Oudo is easily one of the most "positive" Abnormals out there, rivaling both Medaka (at least, the Medaka at the time) and the Plus Six.
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Originally Posted by Randrak42 View Post
Nishio: "Hey, meet Iihiko...have fun."
Of course now we have to justify how everyone's wounds are going to heal because I highly doubt that we can have a manga at all with the central characters unconscious or bleeding forever.
...Actually that would be sort of interesting.
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
These are just a couple of hints I picked up from rereading the chapters in English again, I'm sure there are many more subtleties/causal connections you could make if you read it in Japanese.
You're missing the point. That's still what rather than how. It's insane to think that just by omitting three common syllables from your own speech that you can force others to do the same.
And no, the ability to write enormous walls of text about your desired ship does not increase the possibility of it becoming true.
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Old 2012-09-27, 16:03   Link #10678
Wolfenstein
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Oh, ok, so now you're calling people delusional because they believed the words the manga outright stated?

No-one is making any delusion about substituting one main character for the other. The Manga stated they were doing that. This was stated. This was happening. The entire point of the True Flask Plan arc was to make Zenkichi into this new world's main character. No-one imagined that. And that's why the closure of the TFP arc is fine, the after-effects are horrible.

Nishio just simply didn't have the balls to continue, because I guess Zenkichi just dosen't have the tits and ass or something, since Nishio himself points out multiple times how he's a better character than Medaka and how he completely invalidates the notion of the mary sue MC who always wins. He's supposed to be new, interesting, in stark to the vapid and shallow character that is Medaka and her 2/5 good council. You cannot deny that Nishio was throwing the idea of "Zenkichi Box" in our faces and getting us all hyped for something brand new and interesting. He's just inconsistant about it, and there lies everyone's problem that you can't seem to grasp. Because instead, all we got was "Medaka does what she always does; beat everyone with completely whacky strategies or overwhelming power!"

Yea. He wrote 140 chapters all to show how Medaka was a horrible character simply to deconstruct it in the latter ones. And during all of those she still got 1-2 popularity spots with comparatively much better characters alongside her.

What does that tell you about Japanese readers?

I'll tell you:

Spoiler:
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Old 2012-09-27, 16:23   Link #10679
summers
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So what was the amazing trolling thing people were talking about? So things he breaks stay broken.
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Old 2012-09-27, 16:23   Link #10680
zigantz22
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Concerning Sol's analysis of the relationships, despite all your theories on the larger, nuanced characterization to come, I think you're reading a bit too much into the potential narrative, especially in regards to what said narrative will mean for Medaka's characterization, and how that relates to her relationship with Zenkichi, and her unexplored, non-existent relationship with Kumagawa.

Essentially, I really don't see anything but a Medaka x Zenkichi outcome at this point. I certainly haven't perceived any hints towards Kumagawa x Medaka ever happening. Basically all of Zenkichi's previously potential relationships are far more possible to materialize, though still extremely unlikely. Nishio, I feel, has made the Medaka x Zenkichi outcome rather inevitable.
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