Kuzu no Honkai (noitaminA)

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Verso Sciolto

... whereas I was commenting on the excuses people, the both you included, are making for Mugi.

Read Kinsella's book, or even the synopsis, you'll see how it applies to this series and the topics in this thread.

We all make choices about what we take literally. This topic has once again been quite illuminating in that regard...

I'm really curious, just where did I make any sort of excuse for Mugi's behavior? The guy's a bastard. His only saving grace is that he seems to have some awareness and regret about this.

[Archon_Wing]

Well, I don't think anyone is letting any character off the hook but it does seem like people are readily (not you specifically) are thriwing words like slut or whore out quickly while the same is not as done to a guy. Then again giving how promiscous dudes are often praised in the fandom this might be what this topic is going at.

Probaly doesn't help that people were ready to jump on it due to having read the manga. I am not surprised at all.

I do not think it is of course a good idea to be so aggressive on the matter as to twist people's words but even if this happens on a subconcious level it is a worthy topic.

Not accusing anyone of wrongdoing.

[IceHism]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Well, I don't think anyone is letting any character off the hook but it does seem like people are readily (not you specifically) are thriwing words like slut or whore out quickly while the same is not as done to a guy. Then again giving how promiscous dudes are often praised in the fandom this might be what this topic is going at.

Probaly doesn't help that people were ready to jump on it due to having read the manga. I am not surprised at all.

I do not think it is of course a good idea to be so aggressive on the matter as to twist people's words but even if this happens on a subconcious level it is a worthy topic.

Not accusing anyone of wrongdoing.

That's because guys that engage in "slut" behavior are called fuccbois.

[AB079]

A girl that is known for having intercourse with multiple men and plays with them just to ruin other's people life being called a slut/whore ---> is a bad thing!

A teenage boy that only have sex with his senpai and getting close to it with his "better is nothing" ---> why you don't judge him!

That's a very hipocrite way of thinking, everyone in this story is a scum with no exception, the difference is in the degree.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Well, I don't think anyone is letting any character off the hook but it does seem like people are readily (not you specifically) are thriwing words like slut or whore out quickly while the same is not as done to a guy. Then again giving how promiscous dudes are often praised in the fandom this might be what this topic is going at.

Probaly doesn't help that people were ready to jump on it due to having read the manga. I am not surprised at all.

I do not think it is of course a good idea to be so aggressive on the matter as to twist people's words but even if this happens on a subconcious level it is a worthy topic.

Not accusing anyone of wrongdoing.

Frankly, I prefer just using the term Hanabi chose for them, "scum". They're all selfish, impulsive people who place immediate satisfaction above almost everything else and then, after the high wears off, realize and regret that they've destroyed something that in the long run matters far more to them. Both the main characters may fit the definition of "slut". I'd have to look back but I don't recall Mugi being all that exempt from these terms, or if he was he was certainly not exempted from derision. Certainly, there are some series that have a man actively pursue multiple women (though I believe a larger portion of harems have the man want just one girl and either choose just one or wind up forced to accept the others due to uncontrollable forces, thus satisfying the final fulfillment of the harem fantasy without betraying the moral standard), but it's generally more common for a man to pursue just one woman and otherwise just be a gentleman.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by IceHism

That's because guys that engage in "slut" behavior are called fuccbois.

I admit to not seeing that much. Must be my age.

Originally Posted by AB079

A girl that is known for having intercourse with multiple men and plays with them just to ruin other's people life being called a slut/whore ---> is a bad thing!

A teenage boy that only have sex with his senpai and getting close to it with his "better is nothing" ---> why you don't judge him!

That's a very hipocrite way of thinking, everyone in this story is a scum with no exception, the difference is in the degree.

As I stated above, I think that it is absurd to claim anyone is excusing anyone's actions as that is the point. I don't want to argue from such a provacative angle. So moral equivation is out of the question. Still the reactions are intresting.

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Frankly, I prefer just using the term Hanabi chose for them, "scum". They're all selfish, impulsive people who place immediate satisfaction above almost everything else and then, after the high wears off, realize and regret that they've destroyed something that in the long run matters far more to them. Both the main characters may fit the definition of "slut". I'd have to look back but I don't recall Mugi being all that exempt from these terms, or if he was he was certainly not exempted from derision. Certainly, there are some series that have a man actively pursue multiple women (though I believe a larger portion of harems have the man want just one girl and either choose just one or wind up forced to accept the others due to uncontrollable forces, thus satisfying the final fulfillment of the harem fantasy without betraying the moral standard), but it's generally more common for a man to pursue just one woman and otherwise just be a gentleman.

Well. I guess the whole connotation is a lack of sincerity or loyalty. It does dampen the value when done enough. Though I think many great things grow out of things that were not wholy pure.

Most of my thoughts comes from the likes of Makoto from School Days. An extreme and polarizing example yes. But it did get me thinking about the reactions

[IceHism]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

I admit to not seeing that much. Must be my age.

It's a millennial thing. Same with the very casual hookup culture that goes on right now. Especially with stuff like tinder all over the place. easy way to Netflix and chill

[Verso Sciolto]

Originally Posted by TheEroKing

image omitted

Hayakawa-sempai’s shirt, "La vie en rose".

Originally Posted by AB079

Bad Apple just bring me memories from OSU! lol.

Uso reminds me of the song chosen for Kuzu no Honkai's opening credits: 嘘の火花, Uso no Hibana, Spark of a Lie. Semordnilap, reverse the reading order and it turns out we were given 花火の嘘 Hanabi no Uso, Lie of Hanabi. Flower fire, fire flower. Creativity. Who got it backwards? The song is by 96 猫. The band name literally means 96 Cat(s) but with some imagination their name can also be read as クロネコ [ku ro ne ko] and then it means black cat(s). Perhaps you already knew that. Thanks for playing, 96 猫.

[AB079]

If there is a way to summarize this episode that should be: "Why onii-chan wont notice me? i'm pathetic but whatever I'll go with my personal dildo just to avoid him and then do more stupid things".

Nothing much to say that Hanabi is stupid as hell, and not because she lacks the answer to fix her own life, is because she wants to be like that. The "date" with Akane's sex toy just showed that, Akane just won 100% over Hanabi making her acting like a cheap slut. This is why Akane is the final boss and for now there is nobody able to defeat her.

This is literally NTR and cuckolding: the series. Oh and Moka is back, another poor soul about to get crushed (her voice is so annoying).

[Verso Sciolto]

Originally Posted by AB079

...

"But they smile, they find a music centred in a doleful song ..."

「重なる世界は
いつまでたっても平行線だわ」
perhaps

[HandofFate]

Originally Posted by AB079

If there is a way to summarize this episode that should be: "Why onii-chan wont notice me? i'm pathetic but whatever I'll go with my personal dildo just to avoid him and then do more stupid things".

Nothing much to say that Hanabi is stupid as hell, and not because she lacks the answer to fix her own life, is because she wants to be like that. The "date" with Akane's sex toy just showed that, Akane just won 100% over Hanabi making her acting like a cheap slut. This is why Akane is the final boss and for now there is nobody able to defeat her.

This is literally NTR and cuckolding: the series. Oh and Moka is back, another poor soul about to get crushed (her voice is so annoying).

yea, was just 'what an idiot' watching hanabi fall for everything hook and sinker while wallowing in her own self-pity.

Mugi pretty bad person this episode too, it was interesting how he was fixating on if Hanabi is cheating on him after 'dating for real' but he readily asks out Moca during the confrontation. I think it is kind of different since he's the only actual guy character in this series we have any internal look at. Its like well all these girls keep throwing their bodies at me, **** everything

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by HandofFate

yea, was just 'what an idiot' watching hanabi fall for everything hook and sinker while wallowing in her own self-pity.

Mugi pretty bad person this episode too, it was interesting how he was fixating on if Hanabi is cheating on him after 'dating for real' but he readily asks out Moca during the confrontation. I think it is kind of different since he's the only actual guy character in this series we have any internal look at. Its like well all these girls keep throwing their bodies at me, **** everything

The difference is that he asked Moca out on a date to make her hate him, imho pretty evident from him saying that he always goes easy on her afterwards.

He also didn't really make a face as if he was expecting her to actually accept.

[BWTraveller]

I'm really starting to pity Hanabi. She's still doing horrible things, but you can do some incredibly contemptible things and still deserve a degree of pity. This girl is just being crushed. Mugi wants to break her. Ebato wants to corrupt her. Akane wants to rob her of everything she has and then steal her soul to make her a soulless monster like herself. And the only one who seems to like her good side and want to support her and treasure that part of her can't see her as anything more than a friend while desperately pursuing what for now can only be called a demon. To an extent, they're all going through this, and they're all giving in to the darkness and doing horrible things knowing that they're hurting others, knowing that it'll be bad in the long run, and knowing they'll really get no real fulfillment out of it. But maybe because she's become the center, Hanabi seems to be receiving a whole lot of pain and abuse and manipulation. And she's broken down enough that she's simply inviting more and more.

[serenade_beta]

Excellent..... Go, Ecchan! I can do Yanles (yandere + lesbian/yuri, BTW, probably needs explanation because not used often outside of Japan like stuff like tsundere) too.

[DragoonKain3]

Oh God, Moca is so adoreable! Frigging Mugi doesn't like her because she's unexciting, but he doesn't understand that's exactly what childhood friend romance is about. It's not about passion or lust, but it's about being comfortable with the mundane, and understanding and caring of the other above all else. I mean on some level he feels it already ("I hate to admit it, but I'm soft on Moca"), but as usual, he's either chasing after Akane or now Hanabi because it gets his heart (among other things) pumping.

So Mugi being cheated on the very first day he offically goes out with Hanabi? LOL he gets what he deserves... XD

Which really begs the question... why dafaq is Hanabi going after college guy? If she is going to use her feminine charms, why not use it on Sensei? She really lost her direction... it went from wanting Sensei to look at her, into now taking revenge on Akane by taking everything away from her. I really thought her going out with Mugi for real would show her what real love is about, but eh, I guess it isn't called Kuzu no Honkai for nothing.

So yeah, it's really Hanabi being Akane 2.0 and not technically Mugi's fault, but still, that's what you get for not going with childhood friend.

Seriously speaking though, I can already see where Moca is going and her role in the show. She's going to be the pure one in the show, and will later on give up Mugi because she knows he can't be truly be happy just with her. She'll be the walking 'I want my Beloved to be happy' trope, though this being Kuzu no Honkai, I wonder if something sinister is up her alley. I wouldn't be surprised if she gets raped by college guy or even Sensei and becomes broken because of it, and this will spur Mugi for some character development. I seriously hope not, but I wouldn't be surprised if they do it just for the drama.

[Harry Dresden]

And thus this continues to go along the way I pretty much expected it to. Everyone is terrible people, Mugi not being an exception.

I really can't see actual love here anywhere. I can understand Ecchan being driven to desperation but still that's more about looking for reaffirmation.
Mugi just likes "thrill of the hunt" so to say. Hanabi is pretty much going down the path of Akane with wanting to use people for self interest. Akane is Akane.

At this point it is painfully clear that even if Mugi and Hanabi end up in "genuine" relationship while abandoning their pursuits, they most likely will find it boring. Because all of those people are not looking for actual "love" or "romance". They are indulging in different ways to satisfy their egos, be it because they have yet to develop and mature or because they are already broken.

Really makes me wonder how all of this will crash.

Originally Posted by IceHism

That's because guys that engage in "slut" behavior are called fuccbois.

Have yet to hear about that. Whenever that term is used it is usually about someone who is "not masculine or manly enough".

Guys who engage in "slut" behavior usually are praised for it and called "playas"/playboys.

Anime wise guys doing that are either glorified(VERRRRY common in shoujo) or excused via circumstance.

Its what nowdays can be called Loki-Syndrome where the audience will always find an excuse for male character's behavior because they find him attractive. While at the same time being able to condemn female characters for the smallest "flaw". Its in the real world, its in fiction, its everywhere.

The double standards are seen even in this thread.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Harry Dresden

Have yet to hear about that. Whenever that term is used it is usually about someone who is "not masculine or manly enough".

Guys who engage in "slut" behavior usually are praised for it and called "playas"/playboys.

Anime wise guys doing that are either glorified(VERRRRY common in shoujo) or excused via circumstance.

Its what nowdays can be called Loki-Syndrome where the audience will always find an excuse for male character's behavior because they find him attractive. While at the same time being able to condemn female characters for the smallest "flaw". Its in the real world, its in fiction, its everywhere.

The double standards are seen even in this thread.

Ah, yes, I definitely have seen this in quite a bit of anime as I brought up earlier, and yea I've noted Shoujo anime to have quite a bit of it.

But in this thread? I admit to not paying that close attention beyond maybe that one example involving whats-her-face, but I am curious on how you made this observation.

[Harry Dresden]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Ah, yes, I definitely have seen this in quite a bit of anime as I brought up earlier, and yea I've noted Shoujo anime to have quite a bit of it.

But in this thread? I admit to not paying that close attention beyond maybe that one example involving whats-her-face, but I am curious on how you made this observation.

Its certainly not to a level it can go but there's quite a bit of excuse-making going on to explain away Mugi's behavior. Arguably its worse in other places.

In other places though I've seen plenty of people literally saying that Ecchan deserves to die(helloooo homophobia), while at the same time being all "Aww pooor Mugi he is so broken".

[Verso Sciolto]

Originally Posted by IceHism

...

As indicated in a previous comment, I've now watched the Twilight Saga, and made note of a few times Debussy's music - and a few other poetic references- came up in the four adaptations from that story. As a result I'm once again left to wonder why people weren't at least interested in noting that Minagawa-sensei had played Debussy's "La fille aux cheveux de lin" - "The girl with the Flaxen Hair" on piano in episode two of Kuzu no Honkai, when the name of that composer was dropped in juxtaposition with the Wagner references associated with her character in later episodes. I'd say the piano music contributed to the first impressions we got of Akane. I'm fairly certain it was among the reasons why Kanai-sensei became interested in her though she rightfully said they didn't know each other very well in the previous episode, when he came looking for her response to his confession, before they found themselves in the situation where this sixth episode picked up a bit of their story again at its start.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Harry Dresden

And thus this continues to go along the way I pretty much expected it to. Everyone is terrible people, Mugi not being an exception.

I really can't see actual love here anywhere. I can understand Ecchan being driven to desperation but still that's more about looking for reaffirmation.
Mugi just likes "thrill of the hunt" so to say. Hanabi is pretty much going down the path of Akane with wanting to use people for self interest. Akane is Akane.

At this point it is painfully clear that even if Mugi and Hanabi end up in "genuine" relationship while abandoning their pursuits, they most likely will find it boring. Because all of those people are not looking for actual "love" or "romance". They are indulging in different ways to satisfy their egos, be it because they have yet to develop and mature or because they are already broken.

Really makes me wonder how all of this will crash.

Have yet to hear about that. Whenever that term is used it is usually about someone who is "not masculine or manly enough".

Guys who engage in "slut" behavior usually are praised for it and called "playas"/playboys.

Anime wise guys doing that are either glorified(VERRRRY common in shoujo) or excused via circumstance.

Its what nowdays can be called Loki-Syndrome where the audience will always find an excuse for male character's behavior because they find him attractive. While at the same time being able to condemn female characters for the smallest "flaw". Its in the real world, its in fiction, its everywhere.

The double standards are seen even in this thread.

I'd have to disagree. In my experience, "playboys" are most certainly NOT viewed in high esteem. There are some who like them, but there are also a whole lot of people who look at them with utter contempt. This goes in a greater portion of anime as well. In shoujo it is indeed popular, to the point that many seem to almost glorify men that are more predators than lovers. That's part of why I dislike a significant portion of shoujo. But in other anime, it's more typically viewed with contempt, even as a degree of contempt is directed toward the sort of women who would fawn over such bastards. Even in harem anime, a greater portion has the guy completely clueless to the fact that the girls are even after him, or simply too indecisive to put an end to things, and much of the pain and torture he goes through is a result of his failure to put an end to his situation. So no, I don't buy that men are typically glorified for their philandering, especially in anime. It's just something some people want to keep saying regardless of the decreasing validity.

As far as glorifying bad people, yeah, that happens with both genders. It may be true that female characters are held to an unrealistic standard, but that goes on all sides of the group. Women aren't actually condemned for being any particular type, but rather it seems more often they're condemned for breaking type, like Asuna being reviled because she happens to be sweet and demure by default outside of life-or-death situations and because god forbid that it should be possible for a strong woman to get caught and need some help. People just decide what sort of role they want them to play and get mad if they break from that role.

And frankly your insistence that this double-standard is shown in this thread, I'd say that instead shows that people who complain about this are determined to see it everywhere, no matter how hard they have to squint. I haven't seen anyone praising Mugi for his philandering behavior. Rather, he's treated just the same as everyone else: a broken, contemptible creature who just keeps digging his hole deeper. Like the rest, he's not filled with love, he's filled with a desperate desire for love, a desire to find that deeper feeling that they all know is out there somewhere, if only they knew where to look (clue: it's not inside the other person's pants).

Also, DragoonKain, my take on childhood friend romance is kind of different. It's not about complacent comfort. It's about climbing that mountain you've climbed hundreds of times to see a sunrise like nothing you've ever seen before, or taking a step off that beaten trail to find a beautiful waterfall you didn't even know existed. While love most certainly doesn't need the excitement and racing heart, but that's still a part of it and one aspect of childhood friend romance is finding that excitement. The situation does eliminate some of the fears and problems, and gives you a head start in knowing the other person, but it also carries with it a great deal more tension and difficulty and work. It can indeed become just a peaceful ride where you just treat everything as the way it's always been and was meant to be, but such relationships are fragile, which is why often they wind up failing. It's the ones where the characters actually work and push to get even closer than they are, to learn more than what they "know", to gain something far greater than what they have even if it means risking the loss of everything, that succeed and become something truly beautiful. Basically, it's a matter that takes a ton more work than people realize and a ton more courage, and Mugi doesn't have enough of either of these things. True, Mocha's the closest thing he has to love right now, but he still just doesn't have the guts to pursue it, or even the brains to notice what should be obvious.

I'd actually say that this series possibly isn't primarily about love, but rather about growth and change. It's about people struggling to gain something wonderful while all of them, even the adults, are too immature to do anything but seek immediate gratification and can't even see that they're really destroying any chance they have at the meaningful, deep bonds they clearly want. It's really a matter of time to find out whether what we're dealing with is a story where a person can ultimately grow and change, becoming the sort of person who can actually give real love and thus have a chance to find it in return, or whether this'll settle for the obvious warning that what these people are doing isn't the right path. This much has already been fairly well established; it's hard to see any love in any of the characters. Now it's just a matter of either demonstrating how far those mistakes can take you or demonstrating that you can learn and grow.