Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[quagmire]

I agree saying Kira is responsible for Shinn's family being killed due to no way Calamity being on the ground could have blasted Shinn's family. But, if the producers wanted to make us think Kira wasn't at fault, they should have had the shot being aimed at Forbidden so while Freedom's shot was the one that killed the Asuka family, it was due to Forbidden deflecting Freedom's shot.

[Aquaman OS]

I think the point was that it didn't matter WHO fired the shot, but that they died because war had been brought to Orb. That would also explain why there are 3 different versions of that scene.

[Skye629]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

I think the point was that it didn't matter WHO fired the shot, but that they died because war had been brought to Orb. That would also explain why there are 3 different versions of that scene.

^^^This is the main point^^^ War is a bitch

And there was no point to remove the Freedom from that scene to "keeps jesus yamatos hands clean" hes still a killer and have always been since he entered the war, though he tries to keep his hands as clean as possible now, but is willing to dirty it further if necessary and does recognize people will die, regardless of what he does. The differences in all 3 scenes are completely irrevelent, as long as the Asuka family dies, and Shinn gets traumatized by their deaths

[Cherudim Arche]

Originally Posted by Skye629

^^^This is the main point^^^ War is a bitch

And there was no point to remove the Freedom from that scene to "keeps jesus yamatos hands clean" hes still a killer and have always been since he entered the war, though he tries to keep his hands as clean as possible now, but is willing to dirty it further if necessary and does recognize people will die, regardless of what he does. The differences in all 3 scenes are completely irrevelent, as long as the Asuka family dies, and Shinn gets traumatized by their deaths

Shinn's family would have died either way from the Earth Alliance Invasion of Orb. Shinn probably would have become another casualty instead of a victim in Destiny. That is a big difference. Azrael intent on destroying any coordinators that include Shinn in internment camps or shooting them on the spot. The problem is Shinn isn't clean either. He could have moved to other neutral nations, EA, or ZAFT. Instead he stayed at Orb, Shinn made his decision when he stayed at Orb, don't blame Kira for Shinn's bad decision.

It is pretty much as a drunk driver that hit himself that hits another driver, however, it isn't the driver that ends up killing his family. It ends up being someone else in between or someone out of the loop. For you are pretty much saying it that you blame Kira for just being there, is simply what it amounts to. Without Kira, Orb wouldn't have been able to stall EA for that long before leaving. Orb forces would have been decimated far faster, that Orb simply wouldn't have enough time to counter. It is simply unreasonable for Shinn to blame Kira for everything, even for war base situations. That is still taking it way too far. It like someone blaming you for not getting into a car accident and end pinning it on you for it without any reason and you didn't even crash into them.

[Washu-Chan]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Mu's helmet wasn't edited out of the DVD release, no. Also in the Destiny DVDs, it showed the Freedom and Calamity both firing when Shinn's family die. Since when was that retconned into just the Calamity's fault?

I'm talking about the Japanese DVDs. I know that it was kept on the US DVDs.

[Destined_Fate]

It isn't unreasonable.

We can do could or what ifs all day.

The fact of the matter is what DID happen that that is Kira's battle ended up getting Shinn's family killed. It wasn't intentional but that's what ended up happening. So Shinn being angry is fine as his family is dead due to that. Could they have died anyway? Maybe. We will never know but what we DO know is that they died due to what happened.

[Cherudim Arche]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

It isn't unreasonable.

We can do could or what ifs all day.

The fact of the matter is what DID happen that that is Kira's battle ended up getting Shinn's family killed. It wasn't intentional but that's what ended up happening. So Shinn being angry is fine as his family is dead due to that. Could they have died anyway? Maybe. We will never know but what we DO know is that they died due to what happened.

The problem is that is also circumstantial. It could be EA battleship and carriers, fighter jets and so on. It just has to beam tech, it can literally be from anyone and anything. It could be a friendly fire as well. The fact that they are on the coastline does not narrow it to freedom, even if they are in the same vicinity. The only thing that is really known is that they died. You don't know killed them for you must consider chaos of the battlefield. Not just a snippet from an episode, it doesn't give solid evidence on the situation around them. Also, don't you find it awfully petty to blame it on freedom when there are thousands of other things that can go wrong. If you were to say EA, when it came to that, I would at least consider it. The fact that you blame it Kira is simply shady. Had it been killed intentional like Tolle, then no. But to blame Kira for EA's chaos is downright shameful, for they wanted Orb resources. Death or otherwise, they are willing to go at any length to get it.

[Aquaman OS]

Especially since Shinn never is angry at Freedom. Nor does he ever even seem to know Freedom was there. All he knew was the official Zaft story of Freedom being a legendary suit that fought for them in the war. He didn't even know what it looked like until told after the battle that that odd Gundam that crashed their battle was Freedom.

Instead he's made at Orb. And not for a reason he could legitimately be angry at them like them helping EA twice already and breaking their neutrality, or because they deliberately dragged the battle on to send AA into space and form the TSA (because Shinn has no knowledge of either of this) but simply because he's mad they couldn't magically not get invaded when the entire world went to hell. And he takes it out on Cagalli, who had no control over the situation back then.

[Destined_Fate]

It isn't circumstantial. If it was than why was the Freedom shown flying around after Shinn finds his family? It is not a coincidence. It was put there because Shinn's family was killed by a stray or reflected shot in that battle. We also didn't see any battleships firing or them being shown right before or after his family died while the Freedom was shown.

You're confusing me with the other poster. So I will ignore your personal attacks against me.

To make it clear to you I didn't say it was ONLY Kira's fault. However he did play a part in it as we know his resistance got Shinn's family killed. Could Shinn's family still have died if Kira wasn't there? Maybe. However, it's just that - maybe. What we do know is that Kira being there and fighting did get his family killed. Kira shouldn't be sorry or feel bad over it as he didn't mean to get Shinn's family killed, however Shinn is still justified in being angry since at the end of the day his family is still dead.

[Cherudim Arche]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

It isn't circumstantial. If it was than why was the Freedom shown flying around after Shinn finds his family? It is not a coincidence. It was put there because Shinn's family was killed by a stray or reflected shot in that battle. We also didn't see any battleships firing or them being shown right before or after his family died while the Freedom was shown.

You're confusing me with the other poster. So I will ignore your personal attacks against me.

To make it clear to you I didn't say it was ONLY Kira's fault. However he did play a part in it as we know his resistance got Shinn's family killed. Could Shinn's family still have died if Kira wasn't there? Maybe. However, it's just that - maybe. What we do know is that Kira being there and fighting did get his family killed.

If you read any side story and other material, you should know that seed wouldn't do it so obviously when it comes to incidents. Then prove it by predicting every stray shot of the weapons on the battlefield without the scene that involve beam tech. Also, I consider that scene questionable for Shinn is duress-ed, that he use freedom as a scapegoat. It doesn't indicate how they got kill, only he wants to kill freedom. Any judgement that could have made him credible a witness is out the window.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Skye629

And there was no point to remove the Freedom from that scene

If it's in a flashback, cutting scenes short is not unusual.

[Cherudim Arche]

Originally Posted by monster

If it's in a flashback, cutting scenes short is not unusual.

I don't think it in the flashback. It shows that they are under attack, but it isn't specific beyond that. It is very ambiguous when it comes scene. If they had more pilot accounts from Orb and EA, then maybe they can say. The issue is that there isn't other witness that can prove Shinn's statement by either debunking it or to see it is true.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Cherudim Arche

I don't think it in the flashback.

I'm not talking about the first episode; I'm talking about later episodes where they showed the scenes again, except without the Freedom.

Those other episodes showed the scenes in a flashback style.

[Destined_Fate]

Shinn DOESN'T use the Freedom as a scapegoat. Hell, he has forgotten about the Freedom by Destiny. Also, Kira has no way of predicting where the hits of his shots will land if they're reflected by the enemy. He also dodged a lot of attacks and had a lot of his attacks dodged too.

Shinn instead blames ORB over the Freedom which he's right to and he sure as heck doesn't like the Feds either considering he doesn't mind fighting them and works with ZAFT.

[Aquaman OS]

Well technically it was in one of the many recaps. But the scene as a whole was shorter. And again, they showed Freedom in the first ep of remaster, so they obviously didn't remove it as a retcon. They just shortened it and Freedom getting removed was a coincidence.

[cyberdemon]

The changes in the remastered episode of Seed doesn't really give the feel that either was responsible since they added in the scene of Shinn's family giving an idea of the timeline of the events. So it's likely just coincidental that they were shown in the scene and mostly just used as motivation for Shinn to give him his start.

[Aquaman OS]

You know this arguement is pointless. There's no way to officially confirm who fired the shot. Sure it looks like Kira might have but does it matter? It NEVER comes up again.

The only character it would have mattered too didn't notice or see. Kira himself didn't notice or see. So in the end even if he killed them accidentally, nobody would ever know. And since Shinn ends up hating Kira anyway for unreleated reasons, it's truely pointless in the end.

[The American Average]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

You know this arguement is pointless. There's no way to officially confirm who fired the shot. Sure it looks like Kira might have but does it matter? It NEVER comes up again.

The only character it would have mattered too didn't notice or see. Kira himself didn't notice or see. So in the end even if he killed them accidentally, nobody would ever know. And since Shinn ends up hating Kira anyway for unreleated reasons, it's truely pointless in the end.

party pooper

[Destined_Fate]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

The changes in the remastered episode of Seed doesn't really give the feel that either was responsible since they added in the scene of Shinn's family giving an idea of the timeline of the events. So it's likely just coincidental that they were shown in the scene and mostly just used as motivation for Shinn to give him his start.

Shinn's motivation isn't the Freedom, it's Orb failing his family and the Feds for invading.

[The American Average]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Shinn's motivation isn't the Freedom, it's Orb failing his family and the Feds for invading.

personally its Shinns family fault for dieing because of leaving the house in those outfits. mom wears skirt and heels, dad didn't bring a map, spoiled sister about a cheap pink phone, and the greatest fashion crime of all Shinns hat

Spoiler:

http://img25.wallpapercasa.com/uploa...1458370f89.jpg

it was the fashion police who shot that beam