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Old 2018-04-15, 13:30   Link #2181
Sakuratsuki
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Join Date: Jun 2004
Just assumptions I guess. I find particularly weird that some people dismiss quite some things that happened and portray 02 as the embodiment of evil who can't be saved. As for Kokoro and her finding the book. I think the so called ''foreshadowing'' some are referring too is more based on what people like it to be or wishful thinking.

As for the Hiro x Ichigo ship. With what happened yesterday Ichigo practically killed this ship (if there was a ship to begin with it was always one sided). Only thing left is her trying to push herself on Hiro what would result in failure sooner or later. I don's see Hiro just forgetting about 02 and do what some people are saying.
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Old 2018-04-15, 13:34   Link #2182
orion
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Originally Posted by Mistyclear View Post
So now you guys are saying certain individuals have no place in the future?? Harsh
Also why is Ichigo x Hiro the original pairing? Because she had one-sided feelings for him since childhood and she met him first or he gave her a name first (after himself) or because they were introduced as part of the same group? So far as I know they didnít partner up until that disastrous attempt, so thatís out. So what makes it the original pairing?? Iím confused on this.
The pairing started out when they were kids. Ichigo was seen with Hiro in the flashbacks and then when 02 came along and after mindwipe you see Ichigo with Goro as kids. Ichigo, Goro, Mitsuru and Hiro are from the same "batch" so to speak.
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Old 2018-04-15, 13:37   Link #2183
Mistyclear
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Originally Posted by orion View Post
The pairing started out when they were kids. Ichigo was seen with Hiro in the flashbacks and then when 02 came along and after mindwipe you see Ichigo with Goro as kids. Ichigo, Goro, Mitsuru and Hiro are from the same "batch" so to speak.
Is that all it takes to make it the original pairing? Not much huh....
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Old 2018-04-15, 13:39   Link #2184
Norn
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Join Date: Jan 2018
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In this episode, everyone loses:
  • Z2 is still in self loathing mode. Adding to that, she's now aware of what she's done against Hiro. She also seemed a little regretful when Ichigo told Z2 that she has no place on plantation 13. Ultimately, she burned a bridge too many when she decided to beat everyone up. We're not talking about just pushing them out of her way (which she could have done), no she went in. With all consequences possible.
  • Ichigo got rid of Z2. You'd think this would be great for her if it were not that she had such an active hand in it. I can't see her get what she really wants. Because even when Hiro was feeling weak, he still went up against her. She also realizes upon seeing Hiro cry, that Hiro is going to be hurt over this for quite some time. And even when she kissed him, Ichigo has to force herself upon him. Afterwards you can tell that Ichigo's confession didn't linger as much on his mind as Z2's confession did.
  • Hiro got a glimpse in a past long forgotten, only to get even more questions. Unfortunately, his questions won't be answered. At least not anytime soon. He learns of what happened to Mitsuru, but it's too soon to mend things. He probably understands people wanting him to protect him, but he also has his own needs to address. And later on he sees the person who can answer to those needs assaulting the people who want to protect him. A person who, he may or may not be in love with. Then he drops the ball. It's understandable why he did it, but the execution also means that he drove the final nail into the coffin. He did. Not the Adults, not his friends, not ichigo. So he recalls the moments he has had with Z2, and the sadness overwhelms him. Then suddenly Ichigo comes to stop him and on top of that kisses him and does a confession he at the moment couldn't care much about. Could he try things out with Ichigo? Probably. But he just lost a person he cares a lot about and he has no time for Ichigo.
  • The biggest loser in my opinion, is Goro. He's the one who is torn between wanting the best for his best friends and the girl he likes, but then everything goes south. His friend is separated from the girl who gave him purpose, the girl he likes is openly making moves on his friend. He puts his body on the line to preserve the peace, and what does he get? Not only does he get to hear that his best friend and the girl he loves kissed, he also gets a front seat to her confessing to him. That's gotta hurt even more than what happened to Futoshi.


Surprisingly, I feel for Goro more than I do for Ichigo, Hiro and Z2 at the moment. Small sidenote, but I don't think that Hiro was overly spineless. But I can understand why people would think he is and I think they're justified in feeling that way about him. A lot has been said about Hiro and Z2, but I think that this moment might be good for them. They both get somewhat of a chance to address certain elements of their lives and make a change. Hopefully, for the better.


Speaking of Z2, this can have a lot of developments. Will she want to pilot with other stamen? Will those stamen survive longer, if they survive at all? Will she still pursue becoming human, or will she seek to fully become a monster? I think she's going to change, but the question is how.


Spoiler for replying to older comments:
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Old 2018-04-15, 13:42   Link #2185
Haak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twi View Post
I didn't say that she didn't say what she wanted. I said she wouldn't explain herself. She doesn't explain why she wanted to talk to him. She doesn't explain her actions. She doesn't explain the topic or anything. She just says "I want to see Hiro" without context of any kind to them.

And she hasn't given them a reason to believe her when she said she only wanted to talk to him right after they had to send him to the infirmary to recover. She doesn't even refute accusations of wanting to use him or of changing him to a monster, something I don't think she even knew was happening but something she later sees as a source of guilt.
But still, this doesn't change the fact that there's little to no risk involved with just allowing communication. There are plenty of ways it could be done without involving risk anyway.

In any case I feel like we're going off on a tangent. What does it matter if she didn't give the rest a reason to believe her? My original point was that mental instability was large reason why she hurt Hiro. You're original point was this - "But, if we work under the assumption that she wasn't stable, then why would you bring someone unstable into a situation with the person they hurt when you can't be sure of what they're going to do. More so since she wouldn't explain herself."

I'm not really sure what the point of this is. If we're talking about Ichigo's perspective then I think she was fully justified in doing what she did. It was still wrong ultimately because ZeroTwo wouldn't explain herself, but I think she was justified. But I never made the point that Ichigo wasn't justified.

All I was pointing out that when ZeroTwo hurt Hiro, mental instability was a huge factor. Her not explaining that to the others doesn't change that fact.

Quote:
And when I said she was more of a monster than any time we saw her... look at the scene. All of the other parasites are on the ground, injured and unconscious. Ichigo is in her hand, held up by the collar, being called out for being a weak human who got in her way. Her words, her actions, her behavior, that's what he was calling monstrous and that's what I agreed with on.

She's not that little oni girl who didn't know better, she knows exactly what she's doing.
I mean, she didn't really. It was all based on stupid and contrived misunderstanding and she snapped (because she's mentally unstable)

But again, I get the feeling we've gone way off tangent. My original point was that it wasn't just Hiro and being human that she cared about. I said this because you originally said she only cared about such things. I think my point still stands here.

Quote:
And no, I didn't say she didn't kick the crap out of them earlier for Hiro's sake. I said, if she did kick the crap out of them the result would have been the same. The timing might change, but the cause and effect doesn't: Zero Two beats up Hiro's teammates to see him = Hiro calling her out on it.
Again, I'm not sure what your point here is. My original point was that she didn't only care about Hiro/becoming human because if she did she would've have kicked the crap out of them earlier. The fact that Hiro would've gotten angry earlier doesn't change that fact. I don't know what your point is. Were you actually responding to my point or were you making a completely different point?
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Old 2018-04-15, 14:11   Link #2186
Twi
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
But still, this doesn't change the fact that there's little to no risk involved with just allowing communication. There are plenty of ways it could be done without involving risk anyway.

In any case I feel like we're going off on a tangent. What does it matter if she didn't give the rest a reason to believe her? My original point was that mental instability was large reason why she hurt Hiro. You're original point was this - "But, if we work under the assumption that she wasn't stable, then why would you bring someone unstable into a situation with the person they hurt when you can't be sure of what they're going to do. More so since she wouldn't explain herself."

I'm not really sure what the point of this is. If we're talking about Ichigo's perspective then I think she was fully justified in doing what she did. It was still wrong ultimately because ZeroTwo wouldn't explain herself, but I think she was justified. But I never made the point that Ichigo wasn't justified.

All I was pointing out that when ZeroTwo hurt Hiro, mental instability was a huge factor. Her not explaining that to the others doesn't change that fact.
We know there was little harm in allowing them to communicate because we have a look inside of Zero Two's head. They don't, and she wouldn't tell them anything about it. The reason it matters if she doesn't give the rest a reason to believe her is because they can't trust her to not harm Hiro in one another's presence if she doesn't.

They think she's been using them, and lying to them, and while we know that there might have been some connection and she's not stable, they think she's lying to them and she won't make it clear so that they will give her the chance to talk to Hiro sooner.

Hiro was hurt physically (and Ichigo's arm) at that point, but the rest felt like she had taken advantage of their trust in her and Zero Two didn't bother to try and correct that. Don't you think they deserve to know too what was going on with their friend and their new teammate?

Quote:

I mean, she didn't really. It was all based on stupid and contrived misunderstanding and she snapped (because she's mentally unstable)

But again, I get the feeling we've gone way off tangent. My original point was that it wasn't just Hiro and being human that she cared about. I said this because you originally said she only cared about such things. I think my point still stands here.
I disagree here. Zero Two's focus was, at the moment she was killing Hiro, was that she wanted to be human and Hiro was trying to hold her back from killing the Klaxosaurs. She started draining him enough to actually harm him at that moment while telling him not to hold her back.

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When she learned the truth, she changed her focus to wanting to talk to him. She didn't care about the fact that she'd taken off Ichigo's arm or giving the others an explanation or defending herself against accusations that were being made.

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Right here is when she felt guilty about what happened from what you said. But she doesn't say she's sorry or even explain herself. She says one of the worst things possible and then tries to move her out of the way to get to Hiro.
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When she fixates on one thing at a time, she starts becoming aggressive towards getting that thing. It was cute when she was playing with Hiro and teasing Ichigo in the earlier episodes, but when she started changing back she started becoming hostile about.

And when she reached the point where her patience ran out, she tries to remove the obstacles in her way with force.

Quote:

Again, I'm not sure what your point here is. My original point was that she obviously did care for the other teammates because if she didn't she would've have kicked the crap out of them earlier. I don't know what your point is.
My point was that, if Zero Two hurts his teammates to see him, Hiro won't take it well. Her feelings aren't what I was referencing, it was her actions and how she presented herself. You cannot beat someone up to get your way and then pretend everything is fine.

Violence was not the solution here.
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Last edited by Twi; 2018-04-15 at 14:43.
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Old 2018-04-15, 14:12   Link #2187
ramlaen
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Originally Posted by orion View Post
They are not related. It is not considered incest. Ichigo x Hiro was the original pair. Ichigo was the one that family-zoned herself after the initial kiss. She just un-family zoned herself. Hiro has to be in a "need a female partner" mode if he wants to survive now. He's smart enough not to refuse what's being offered.
Setting aside that Ichigo already failed at being able to sync with Hiro, if they were to partner again it would not make Hiro fall in love with her.
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Old 2018-04-15, 14:26   Link #2188
wuhugm
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Originally Posted by Mistyclear View Post
So now you guys are saying certain individuals have no place in the future?? Harsh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakura_Tsuki View Post
Just assumptions I guess. I find particularly weird that some people dismiss quite some things that happened and portray 02 as the embodiment of evil who can't be saved.
02 IS evil

Before she realized Hiro is her original darling, she's trying to turn him into a monster (which normally kills you) while herself trying to turn human

People so forgiving to 02 is weird.
If Hiro wasn't the destined darling, he would've been killed. Just like those hundreds previous partners of her.

02 : I killed all those people and almost killed you, but since I'm the main heroine you and everyone must forgive me! If you need someone to hate, hate that bitchigo who acted arrogantly despite completely in the right!

Hahahahaha

Also God knows where 02 learned about kiss and deeds after that lol~
And she did that to Hiro who she didn't know is her original darling
Her previous darlings must've gotten similar incentive, no?
Who's the bitch now hnnn?~
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Old 2018-04-15, 14:57   Link #2189
Mangonel
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I don't get why some people think 02 was trying to kill Hiro. Seems pretty obvious she's freaking out about losing her human facade for reasons-yet-unknown and pursing her only perceived option (kill more klaxo's).

She's stressed out to the point of gnawing her fingertips bloody, she was looking for a picture book for comfort that she couldn't find (which raises the question of where her book went) and was otherwise having a mental breakdown.

02 knows what she does to people, if you recall when Mitsu paired with her she was going easy on him till he egged her on, and she hates herself for it. Its why she treated her partners as disposable, per Father's orders she has no choice but to use them up. So she keeps herself from getting attached.

Honestly, 02 has so much self-hate its really sad. She can't stand the sight of herself, she can't stand that shes a monster that everyone hates, shes terrified of losing what friendship/normalcy she's found in the squad and shes losing it.

She's so calm at the end of 14 because its the peace that comes with finality. She's shit the bed and this is her deserved punishment. No more panicking about losing her glass house, because its lost. She's back with people who'll simply treat her as a tool/monster and there's some comfort in returning to what you know than trying make the best of the unknown.

I didn't intend to write this much when I started Į\_(ツ)_/Į.
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Old 2018-04-15, 15:05   Link #2190
IceHism
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Originally Posted by Norn View Post
In this episode, everyone loses:
  • Ichigo got rid of Z2. You'd think this would be great for her if it were not that she had such an active hand in it. I can't see her get what she really wants. Because even when Hiro was feeling weak, he still went up against her. She also realizes upon seeing Hiro cry, that Hiro is going to be hurt over this for quite some time. And even when she kissed him, Ichigo has to force herself upon him. Afterwards you can tell that Ichigo's confession didn't linger as much on his mind as Z2's confession


Surprisingly, I feel for Goro more than I do for Ichigo, Hiro and Z2 at the moment. Small sidenote, but I don't think that Hiro was overly spineless. But I can understand why people would think he is and I think they're justified in feeling that way about him. A lot has been said about Hiro and Z2, but I think that this moment might be good for them. They both get somewhat of a chance to address certain elements of their lives and make a change. Hopefully, for the better.


Speaking of Z2, this can have a lot of developments. Will she want to pilot with other stamen? Will those stamen survive longer, if they survive at all? Will she still pursue becoming human, or will she seek to fully become a monster? I think she's going to change, but the question is how.


Spoiler for replying to older comments:
But this is better for Ichigo. Ichigo had 0 chance while 02 was there, especially considering now that Hiro and 02 realize that they even liked each other when they were just smol children. Having the opportunity to maybe get them away from each other and try to fill some void is a lot better than if 02 was still there where she would be able to do, well, not much. Sure, maybe ichigo will realize that Hiro is suffering a lot more considering Hiro couldn't even get any closure to the new questions he had but now her chances went from like 0% to 1%. Considering Hiro doesn't seem to be confident enough to clearly reject her, there's hope for ichigo.

Gobro doesn't deserve all this. Just look at him smile and then walk away as Ichigo kisses Hiro. The show did him dirty.
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Old 2018-04-15, 15:17   Link #2191
Haak
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Originally Posted by Twi View Post
We know there was little harm in allowing them to communicate because we have a look inside of Zero Two's head. They don't, and she wouldn't tell them anything about it. The reason it matters if she doesn't give the rest a reason to believe her is because they can't trust her to not harm Hiro in one another's presence if she doesn't.

They think she's been using them, and lying to them, and while we know that there might have been some connection and she's not stable, they think she's lying to them and she won't make it clear so that they will give her the chance to talk to Hiro sooner.

Hiro was hurt physically (and Ichigo's arm) at that point, but the rest felt like she had taken advantage of their trust in her and Zero Two didn't bother to try and correct that. Don't you think they deserve to know too what was going on with their friend and their new teammate?
I really don't understand why you're so insistent on a point I never made and don't disagree with. I really don't blame them and certainly not Ichigo for preventing the talk. This is ridiculously off tangent and has nothing to do with anything.

My point was that when ZeroTwo hurt Hiro, mental instability played a huge factor. This was in response to your assertion that ZeroTwo's actions in Ep 12 was largely her choice. Let's just leave it there: ultimately the extent to which it was her choice has been made ambiguous because we're left without the full context of certain factors (namely if she's still undergoing torture tests and why she's so desperate to be human).

Quote:
I disagree here. Zero Two's focus was, at the moment she was killing Hiro, was that she wanted to be human and Hiro was trying to hold her back from killing the Klaxosaurs. She started draining him enough to actually harm him at that moment while telling him not to hold her back.

Images
Parts of Episode 12
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When she learned the truth, she changed her focus to wanting to talk to him. She didn't care about the fact that she'd taken off Ichigo's arm or giving the others an explanation or defending herself against accusations that were being made.

Images
Beginning of Issues
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Right here is when she felt guilty about what happened from what you said. But she doesn't say she's sorry or even explain herself. She says one of the worst things possible and then tries to move her out of the way to get to Hiro.
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Zero Two's response
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When she fixates on one thing at a time, she starts becoming aggressive towards getting that thing. It was cute when she was playing with Hiro and teasing Ichigo in the earlier episodes, but when she started changing back she started becoming hostile about.

And when she reached the point where her patience ran out, she tries to remove the obstacles in her way with force.
I don't see any reason to think she fixates on things more than a normal person. The examples you talk about are about her fixating on things that have literally been the only source of solace in her crappy life for the majority of her life. I think she's well within her rights to fixate on them (except when she nearly killed Hiro but I've already pointed out the role mental instability played there).

And just because someone doesn't communicate well, doesn't mean they don't care about them. The way someone talks to you makes a big difference. Ichigo was very antagonistic and accusatory. When someone talks to you that way, it's very easy to be stupid and immature about it. I know because I used to be like that too and I've seen it in others. It’s how arguments about the dumbest things become toxic. When faced against an argumentative person, people have a tendency of being needlessly stubborn and burn bridges and say things they don't mean even when they could just explain themselves easily. And ZeroTwo doesn't have the best background when it comes to communication skills. That's not a good sign of not caring. (excuse the double negative).

But even if she does fixate on things more than other people, that has nothing to do with caring about more than one thing. Again, i feel like you're muddying the waters here. Just because you're fixated on certain things, doesn't mean you don't care about the things you aren't fixated on. It's called priorities. ZeroTwo is clearly bad at it but that doesn't mean she doesn't care. Like I said, the show wouldn't have devoted scenes to her expressing regret with her burning the bridge with her teammates if she didn't care. The scene you’re referencing wasn’t even the one I was talking about. The strongest one happens later when she’s stewing in her room and says something along the lines of "humans and demons can't get along". That's a very clear sign of caring.

Also as I pointed out earlier, if she really were fixated on just Hiro then she would've kicked the crap out of Ichigo and the others much earlier. I'm referencing her feelings by the way.

Quote:
My point was that, if Zero Two hurts his teammates to see him, Hiro won't take it well. Her feelings aren't what I was referencing, it was her actions and how she presented herself. You cannot beat someone up to get your way and then pretend everything is fine.

Violence was not the solution here.
Actually you were. This was the original point:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twi View Post
Zero Two only cared about chasing being human and tried to kill Hiro, but when she learned he was who she was looking for she only cared about talking to him and not the others around her who fought with her and also cared about Hiro.

She has to open up to more than just him if she's going to grow.
If you want to go off a completely separate tangent then you've got to make that clearer, otherwise you're just muddying the waters.

Also I hope this isn't a shock to you but I also don't think violence was the solution.
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Old 2018-04-15, 16:00   Link #2192
Twi
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I'm trying to make it clearer (and just spent about ten minutes going through the effort looking up clips), but I don't think it'd matter much at this point. We're not going off tangent, we're going in circles because we're not seeing the same points despite the fact that we're trying to get our message across to each other.

Let's try it this way. My issue is with Zero Two's current acts, how her motivations played a part in them, and how I think they could have been avoided. To me, I've seen her desires at first be to find someone she can pilot with continuously without dying, then she wants to become human, then she wants to be with her original darling. And I've seen what she does to get those goals.

When she wanted to be with Hiro, episode 4 was when she disobeyed Papa's orders and went with Hiro once he announced he wanted to ride with her despite her features. I cheered because I saw it as a source of happiness for them both and the adults have been sketchy at the moment. Ichigo liking Hiro was something I understood, but I also acknowledged that they had no chemistry and he had chosen Zero Two, and the other parasites start welcoming her into the group slowly from the Beach episode onwards.

Then we learned she was becoming less human and she was starting to withdraw from Hiro, despite him wanting her to be open with him about everything. She starts becoming more reckless in battle, quiet around others, and not as active. It was around this point that Hiro tries to hear her out, but she's refusing to explain the situation to him about what was happening. She internalized it and it was being determental on their relationship because one party was listening and open and the other wasn't.


Then came Episode 12. Zero Two's reckless reaches its highest point and she won't explain anything. She lashes out at mirrors and things that showcase that she's becoming less human, Hiro mistakes his confession to be something involving her body, and then states he's being fodder for her. Then that final battle happens and when Hiro tries to restrain her, that's when the representation of her turning red and putting her hand around his throat manifest and she talks about him giving her life so she can be human.

It was at this point that I felt her priorities shifted. She stopped caring about finding someone who could ride with her and started fixating on becoming human, to the hazard of both herself and Hiro, resulting in that current state of things in Episode 14.

My problem here is that Hiro has been nothing but supportive and sweet, but she won't open up to him. She's stewing in her issues and won't try to explain why. So the problem is festering and someone who is trying to help her won't let him.

Episode 14, the truth comes out between them. Hiro and Zero Two know the situation. She wants to talk to him about it, but the others won't let her because actively harmed Hiro and Ichigo brings up that she was trying to suck Hiro dry and was trying to turn him into a monster. She doesn't refute any of that and only wants to see Hiro to talk with him, so they start putting in the motions to get them separated, unaware that nana has already called APE to arrange for Zero Two's removal. After learning she's about to leave and stewing in her room, she decides she's going to see him and backhands Goro into the window. Goro and Kokoro convince Ichigo to take her to see him, and when he's not there, she loses it and attacks them. Hiro comes in to see she's standing over the bodies and telling them to never get in her way and calls her a monster because of the scene he's stumbled into and she states why she did it, showing no concern about them at that moment. She considers it her punishment and leaves.

It was here that her priorities shifted again, from wanting to be human to wanting to see Hiro, who is her original Darling. My problem here is that she didn't try to explain anything despite the fact that in her head, as she watched Hiro be rolled away, she stated she understood now what he meant about wanting to understand her fully and talk, but she didn't bother to extend that courtesy to the others who are defensive of Hiro because he is there friend, has been hurt, and the last things they heard was Zero Two trying telling him not to tie her down and to be devoured like the fodder he was.

I think that she could have made more of an effort to be vocal about her issues so that the others could have provided her with advice or understand her better at that moment, because it was after she said she thought she understood what Hiro meant about wanting to get to know her better.

But she doesn't. She doesn't let them know her side of the story so they would be willing to understand her better. She only asks and demands to see Hiro without telling them anything, not saying anything to ease their concerns that Hiro would be in danger if they got in touch with one another again.

I believe that if she had been open to his teammates then they would have let her talk to Hiro right away. I believe that if she hadn't been internalizing her issues when people were willing to listen, it wouldn't have gotten to the point she lost her patience. But she didn't say anything to either Hiro or the others until it got to the point she hurt Hiro physically with the bruises on his neck and then hurt the others because she thought they were deceiving her when they were openly stating how Hiro must've escaped. She did not show signs of regretting harming the others until Hiro called her out on it.

I can understand her past. I can sympathize with her past. But I understand and sympathize have to sympathize with the kids, their relationship to Hiro included.

I acknowledge she's been through a lot of trauma, but I also acknowledge that change is something a person has to work towards. Hiro has been trying to get her to open up before this and she hasn't accepted it, instead internalizing until things got this far. I acknowledge she understands the weight of her actions only after the mistake has been made and they've been split apart.

My issues with her actions is that I believe that she was given so many chances to do better and reach out to others, but she didn't and now people are hurt by her hands and her decisions. I hold that people have to carry responsibility for what they do when there were other options for them to take. That's where my values lie and how I've been seeing things.

I'm trying to guess what your points are, so I can understand your view point better. That's why I've been taking the time to put things as clearly and as neatly as I can. Because you are expressing your opinion in a matter beyond shipping and with clear thought put behind it.

But I'm failing if you think I made the inclination that you thought violence was the answer. So please, try and tell me how you see things so I can understand. I don't think we'll agree, but I want to understand your viewpoint.
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Old 2018-04-15, 16:24   Link #2193
Blueknight78
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Originally Posted by Twi View Post
I'm trying to make it clearer (and just spent about ten minutes going through the effort looking up clips), but I don't think it'd matter much at this point. We're not going off tangent, we're going in circles because we're not seeing the same points despite the fact that we're trying to get our message across to each other.

Let's try it this way. My issue is with Zero Two's current acts, how her motivations played a part in them, and how I think they could have been avoided. To me, I've seen her desires at first be to find someone she can pilot with continuously without dying, then she wants to become human, then she wants to be with her original darling. And I've seen what she does to get those goals.

When she wanted to be with Hiro, episode 4 was when she disobeyed Papa's orders and went with Hiro once he announced he wanted to ride with her despite her features. I cheered because I saw it as a source of happiness for them both and the adults have been sketchy at the moment. Ichigo liking Hiro was something I understood, but I also acknowledged that they had no chemistry and he had chosen Zero Two, and the other parasites start welcoming her into the group slowly from the Beach episode onwards.

Then we learned she was becoming less human and she was starting to withdraw from Hiro, despite him wanting her to be open with him about everything. She starts becoming more reckless in battle, quiet around others, and not as active. It was around this point that Hiro tries to hear her out, but she's refusing to explain the situation to him about what was happening. She internalized it and it was being determental on their relationship because one party was listening and open and the other wasn't.


Then came Episode 12. Zero Two's reckless reaches its highest point and she won't explain anything. She lashes out at mirrors and things that showcase that she's becoming less human, Hiro mistakes his confession to be something involving her body, and then states he's being fodder for her. Then that final battle happens and when Hiro tries to restrain her, that's when the representation of her turning red and putting her hand around his throat manifest and she talks about him giving her life so she can be human.

It was at this point that I felt her priorities shifted. She stopped caring about finding someone who could ride with her and started fixating on becoming human, to the hazard of both herself and Hiro, resulting in that current state of things in Episode 14.

My problem here is that Hiro has been nothing but supportive and sweet, but she won't open up to him. She's stewing in her issues and won't try to explain why. So the problem is festering and someone who is trying to help her won't let him.

Episode 14, the truth comes out between them. Hiro and Zero Two know the situation. She wants to talk to him about it, but the others won't let her because actively harmed Hiro and Ichigo brings up that she was trying to suck Hiro dry and was trying to turn him into a monster. She doesn't refute any of that and only wants to see Hiro to talk with him, so they start putting in the motions to get them separated, unaware that nana has already called APE to arrange for Zero Two's removal. After learning she's about to leave and stewing in her room, she decides she's going to see him and backhands Goro into the window. Goro and Kokoro convince Ichigo to take her to see him, and when he's not there, she loses it and attacks them. Hiro comes in to see she's standing over the bodies and telling them to never get in her way and calls her a monster because of the scene he's stumbled into and she states why she did it, showing no concern about them at that moment. She considers it her punishment and leaves.

It was here that her priorities shifted again, from wanting to be human to wanting to see Hiro, who is her original Darling. My problem here is that she didn't try to explain anything despite the fact that in her head, as she watched Hiro be rolled away, she stated she understood now what he meant about wanting to understand her fully and talk, but she didn't bother to extend that courtesy to the others who are defensive of Hiro because he is there friend, has been hurt, and the last things they heard was Zero Two trying telling him not to tie her down and to be devoured like the fodder he was.

I think that she could have made more of an effort to be vocal about her issues so that the others could have provided her with advice or understand her better at that moment, because it was after she said she thought she understood what Hiro meant about wanting to get to know her better.

But she doesn't. She doesn't let them know her side of the story so they would be willing to understand her better. She only asks and demands to see Hiro without telling them anything, not saying anything to ease their concerns that Hiro would be in danger if they got in touch with one another again.

I believe that if she had been open to his teammates then they would have let her talk to Hiro right away. I believe that if she hadn't been internalizing her issues when people were willing to listen, it wouldn't have gotten to the point she lost her patience. But she didn't say anything to either Hiro or the others until it got to the point she hurt Hiro physically with the bruises on his neck and then hurt the others because she thought they were deceiving her when they were openly stating how Hiro must've escaped. She did not show signs of regretting harming the others until Hiro called her out on it.

I can understand her past. I can sympathize with her past. But I understand and sympathize have to sympathize with the kids, their relationship to Hiro included.

I acknowledge she's been through a lot of trauma, but I also acknowledge that change is something a person has to work towards. Hiro has been trying to get her to open up before this and she hasn't accepted it, instead internalizing until things got this far. I acknowledge she understands the weight of her actions only after the mistake has been made and they've been split apart.

My issues with her actions is that I believe that she was given so many chances to do better and reach out to others, but she didn't and now people are hurt by her hands and her decisions. I hold that people have to carry responsibility for what they do when there were other options for them to take. That's where my values lie and how I've been seeing things.

I'm trying to guess what your points are, so I can understand your view point better. That's why I've been taking the time to put things as clearly and as neatly as I can. Because you are expressing your opinion in a matter beyond shipping and with clear thought put behind it.

But I'm failing if you think I made the inclination that you thought violence was the answer. So please, try and tell me how you see things so I can understand. I don't think we'll agree, but I want to understand your viewpoint.
i feel which your problem is you keep taking out of the maths, the fact which as she is become more a monster she stopped to proper rationalize, that is the problem, when peoples get emotional unstable on that level become hard to do the "right thing" and that is one of the points, zero two actions are perfect fine if you see from that point of view, put yourself in her place and image you slowly turning in a monster and not just "phsyically but emotional too", it can become even more hard to open to anyone than she already was, trust is not something you can "magically gain" from someone, some peoples can take years until you can gain they belief as they are hard to open and specially in a case of her where she is losing sight of herself.

It's just a human nature and again TPM is aways a big problem.

and Honest speaking if you "like her soo much as you claimed in one post" why you are so desperated in paint her as the worst monster psychopat ever????, i'm not saying to defend her but for somoene to claim liking a character and being the one to "attack her like that" make hard to believe on something like that.
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Old 2018-04-15, 16:29   Link #2194
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It's not the math, Blue Knight. I put it plainly in the very text you quoted. I believed that she had a chance to change things before they got to this point and people got hurt, and she didn't take it by her own choice. If it looks to you like I've painted her as a psychopath then I failed to get my point across. If you like someone, then you have to acknowledge the good and the bad along with the flaws.
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Old 2018-04-15, 16:35   Link #2195
Blueknight78
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It's not the math, Blue Knight. I put it plainly in the very text you quoted. I believed that she had a chance to change things before they got to this point and people got hurt, and she didn't take it by her own choice. If it looks to you like I've painted her as a psychopath then I failed to get my point across. If you like someone, then you have to acknowledge the good and the bad along with the flaws.
during the time where the things started she was still in her "defensive state", because she still don't full trust on hiro" and to be fair i really doubt she wanted to kill him as much as she wanted to kill mitsuro it was more like she wanted to scare him off her, just because she don't "refuse" others peoples words it's means which they are "agree with them" sometimes they just prefer keep silence", because if she indeed wanted to kill him she could had did it much more early, it was more a mix of her "emotional unstable state" and desire to be human burning down and making her act like that, than she really want to do that.

just do the maths again

crap past/abuse childhood
the peoples she trusted disappear from her
she being served with peoples to die in her hands
losing sight of "care of others lifes"
being considered a "weapon"
start to turn back in a monster and it literally eating her

when you put all that things her actions make a lot of sense i could possibel be doing the same in her place to be honest or maybe not, remember each person is a person and we can't really be "100%" sure about they actions.
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Old 2018-04-15, 16:41   Link #2196
Twi
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Originally Posted by Blueknight78 View Post
during the time where the things started she was still in her "defensive state", because she still don't full trust on hiro" and to be fair i really doubt she wanted to kill him as much as she wanted to kill mitsuro it was more like she wanted to scare him off her, just because she don't "refuse" others peoples words it's means which they are "agree with them" sometimes they just prefer keep silence", because if she indeed wanted to kill him she could had did it much more early, it was more a mix of her "emotional unstable state" and desire to be human burning down and making her act like that, than she really want to do that.
I believe she was sincerely trying to kill him from her words and the those markings on his neck. Even if she was trying to scare him, she actually hurt him and didn't stop until the mind meld was done.

We aren't going to agree with one another because we see things too differently, but you can at least understand why I feel the way I do now, right?
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Old 2018-04-15, 16:50   Link #2197
Blueknight78
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I believe she was sincerely trying to kill him from her words and the those markings on his neck. Even if she was trying to scare him, she actually hurt him and didn't stop until the mind meld was done.

We aren't going to agree with one another because we see things too differently, but you can at least understand why I feel the way I do now, right?
Because again turning in a monster make things hard for her, remember when she was "fine" what she did to mitsuru??? he was on the hospital for like 2 or 3 days just because she was "normal" now let's see the same when she was "unstable" ofcourse she could go overboard because on that moment she was almost totally losing herself them her "scare" could really lead to her killing him, we get many cases in real life where peoples lose control over themselfs and ended doing what they don't wanted because "they ended losing the control over themselfs.

being honest no, i still don't get what is your point.
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Old 2018-04-15, 16:56   Link #2198
James Rye
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Originally Posted by James Rye View Post
That makes us two already. I hope next episode won't be too crushing for Goro. :/
FUCK! Goro got crushed! Hard! FUCK! >.<
Who cares about the rest, best boy didn't deserve this crushing! ;A;
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Old 2018-04-15, 17:16   Link #2199
orion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueknight78 View Post
during the time where the things started she was still in her "defensive state", because she still don't full trust on hiro" and to be fair i really doubt she wanted to kill him as much as she wanted to kill mitsuro it was more like she wanted to scare him off her, just because she don't "refuse" others peoples words it's means which they are "agree with them" sometimes they just prefer keep silence", because if she indeed wanted to kill him she could had did it much more early, it was more a mix of her "emotional unstable state" and desire to be human burning down and making her act like that, than she really want to do that.

just do the maths again

crap past/abuse childhood
the peoples she trusted disappear from her
she being served with peoples to die in her hands
losing sight of "care of others lifes"
being considered a "weapon"
start to turn back in a monster and it literally eating her

when you put all that things her actions make a lot of sense i could possibel be doing the same in her place to be honest or maybe not, remember each person is a person and we can't really be "100%" sure about they actions.
But people are usually sympathetic until a line has been crossed. When you start to harm another person, the line is crossed and at least for me the sympathy ends.

A lot of anger management and communication would have saved her. But, she didn't work on her weaknesses and it resulted in her almost killing Hiro, injuring the rest of the 13s., lowering the 13s ability to act as a unit because they are down a mecha team and potentially damaging their mission.

All because she wanted to believe that killing klaxs will make her human when she knew that it wasn't true.
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Old 2018-04-15, 17:16   Link #2200
Blueknight78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Rye View Post
FUCK! Goro got crushed! Hard! FUCK! >.<
Who cares about the rest, best boy didn't deserve this crushing! ;A;
well maybe when finally hiro reject ichigo for god sake and she finally stop to be a broken third wheel he finally get his real chance.

and for Twi

ok for the last time, explain me this:
If zero two was true wanting to kill hiro as you are saying then why exactly she waited for so long to do that??? she had plent of chances to drain him to death and could not saved him in the beginner, explain why she waited for the "last second to do that"??? if it was aways part of her "plans" killing him, to keep her humanity she could had did at as soon she started to notice her transformation.
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