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Old 2019-02-07, 16:37   Link #21
BWTraveller
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Too many? Yes. The question isn't whether there are a lot of master/slave relationship series, but rather whether this is "typical" master/slave or legitimately holds to the bad aspects of such tropes. Just like with isekai in general or "wish-fulfillment" or any number of other story aspects, you can have things done well or poorly depending on what the author's trying to say and how well he/she says it. The author personally said slavery was supposed to be something Naofumi was forced to do and that efforts were made to create a world where morality was far from simple. In my opinion he/she did a good job of this. Calling this a standard slave fantasy fanservice bit to me feels like calling Log Horizon a typical wish-fulfillment isekai story. I'm sorry but I hate "Death of the Author" and "X trope is bad", even if "X" is "Happiness in Slavery". Anything can be done well or poorly and the author's intent as well as their presentation matters, and I have tried but haven't been able to see the sort of fantasy Felix and others claim to be unable to unsee. And yes, I've seen a ton of series with master-slave relationships, so it's not that I just haven't seen as many or known the trope as well.
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Old 2019-02-08, 08:40   Link #22
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Here's a bit of my thoughts. The animee is obviously going to be simplified over the LN / WN. I read the LN and I still didn't care for the slave angle - yes it is used to show that Naofumi is willing to embrace something a bit dark when he's can't think of any other mechanism, but IMO the details involved aren't fully "earned" as part of the storytelling (although they are better than in the animee).

For example about the stuff that's already happened:
Spoiler for It's in the LN but skipped over in the animee:


Anyway, I came for the fantasy elements and knew there was probably a good chance that there would be a bunch of relatively standard (and annoying) cliche's thrown in. Basically - just because there is 1 or 2 small differences doesn't mean the overall convention of master/slave all that different from many other story lines.
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Old 2019-02-09, 06:50   Link #23
Dengar
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So I guess if a female character doesn't get in line and behave the way you want her to, she's not developed enough.
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Old 2019-02-09, 08:29   Link #24
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
So I guess if a female character doesn't get in line and behave the way you want her to, she's not developed enough.
Are you seriously going to use that kind of argument to defend someone "loving" being a slave?
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Old 2019-02-09, 10:48   Link #25
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Originally Posted by Dharma View Post
So if pair met under shitty circumstances and entered in relationship of mutual grows and respect the relationship are icky? I kinda agree in a way: what we, humans are - what we made of - is icky. But stockholm syndrome only icky as far as it reminds us of what we truly are. And if you actually look at "normal" behavior it is no better. So what we left with is the end result. And the end result seems ok-ish to me (at least for now). I'v seen far worse - and no slavery was needed.
No question that there are worse examples out there, this particular example is rather wholesome all things considered (Raph's feelings seems to be like that of a first crush while Naofumi's attitude is like that of a father) BUT you can't dismiss the fact that there was coercion involved in the first place. They could've grown into each other over time but for most of the time they were together Raph was a child and didn't have a choice in the matter.

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Originally Posted by The Green One View Post
So because Raphatalia and Naofumi met under crappy circumstances and in a crappy way having any sort of positive meaningful relationship be it romantic or familial is 100% impossible? Well ok then....
ehh, for one you don't show your boobs that way to family , so while Naofumi might see Raph as a daughter or little sister, we can say for sure that Raph's feelings are of the romantic kind.

it's possible to have a positive meaningful relationship with each other of course, as we can see with the pair in this series, specifically how sincere Raph is in her gratitude to Naofumi.

BUT even when we know for a fact that there's no coercion involved if ever this evolves into a romantic relationship, no matter how mutual or consensual their relationship will be now that Raph's all grown up and all that, there will always be this idea in the back of my mind that there was a time when Raph didn't have a choice in the matter and that this has an influence in her actions right now.

I don't want to delve too deeply into this, as it's already off topic and I might just be reading too much into Raph's actions, it might just be a light crush on the very first person who had shown her some kindness since her parents died after all.
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Old 2019-02-09, 12:16   Link #26
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This all seems kinda silly to me. To call it Stockholm Syndrome is objectively false in the first place. Naofumi is not even her captor, he is her savior. The anime plays this angle and it's something both Raphtalia notices and us as the audience should notice. He saved her from a cage where she was dying from an illness and has nightmare terrors so she had no possible chance of being taken in by a good family. Stockholm syndrome is also also a survival strategy to protect themselves from their captors. Raphtalia's strong desire to be with Naofumi was because he did treat her well and the alternatives would have been drastically worse. Over time she developed feelings for him after getting to know why the bitterness existed in him and that deep down he was a good person who protected her; despite also needing her to fight for him. It also helps that Raphtalias parents mentioned that the shield hero was the one hero who treated demi-humans better than anyone else. Raphtalia was a child in need of a parent, and Naofumi filled that role for her. That was her initial feeling, but as she started to age those feelings sprouted into a more romantic kind of feeling. She sees him as a man, and while she may have the experience of a ten year old, she has the body of an adult and all of the quirks that come with it.

The slave crest is no more than a memento to Naofumi; It's Raphtalias way of saying thank you. Naofumi may not have needed her to keep it, but it's her way of showing her faith. She isn't treated like a slave anymore, she's a slave in name only. It does nothing to detract from their relationship. It's merely there for the sake of symbolism.
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Old 2019-02-09, 12:37   Link #27
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
A world designed to glorify him? Are we watching the same show? The world does nothing but shit on him and treat him unfairly.
Which puts him on a pedestal for the readers as a tragic, persecuted hero, so misunderstood and so much better than his critics at saving the world and retaining sex slaves. Unjustified criticism over the rape business creates the illusion for the reader that Naofumi is a justified character, and allows them to fulfil their wish that the real-life criticism aimed at them, the reader, was also unjust. Sword Art Online pulled the same trick in ep 2, it's a standard device.

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Originally Posted by BWTraveller View Post
Only thing I can say is, as had been said before, it was a matter of absolute necessity for him. He cannot trust anyone, so the only way for him to survive is to rely on a person who's bound by a curse to be unable to break his trust. And whatever you think about the level of his trauma, it's clear how little capacity for trust he has left from the fact that the moment the seal's broken he believes Raphtalia will betray him and tries to keep her away.
What trauma? Raph has been an abused slave all her life, and it's Naofumi's spirit that was broken? By a few harsh words from an alien society he had no reason to expect any love from anyway. You've shown that replacing the slave brand was an emotional, rather than a practical necessity for Naofumi, which his trumped-up 'trauma' fails to justify.

'Jesus-kun' by the way, wasn't comparing Naofumi to Jesus, it's a nickname for Kirito from SAO, similar to 'Gary Stu'. Not a traditional or complete Gary Stu, I grant, but...he's a light novel protagonist.

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Originally Posted by BWTraveller View Post
I agree if he asks her to get the seal remade. My entire point was the hypothetical of her choosing of her own accord to restore the seal. If he asked then yeah it'd hurt their trust. But if she herself went to the slaver and asked to have the slave seal rebuilt then it could be viewed as a symbol of her own trust in him. This makes a huge difference.
Humans do not have the right to submit to slavery, or sell themselves as slaves. Or else they're abetting the universal crime of slave-holding, and eroding the dignity of the whole human race. Raph doesn't know this, but Naofumi does. I absolutely can't think of Raph's decision as an expression of trust, but only a pitiful lack of ability to live other than as a slave. Treating the slave-brand (on her breasts!), as an expression of trust strikes me as unavoidably romanticising slavery.

However, it is true that lifelong slaves have difficulty in adapting to freedom. it is significant that Raph had the brand replaced herself, rather than Naofumi replacing it at her insistence. Naofumi still absolutely fails to help Raph become free, a crime his trauma would explain rather than excuse, if it wasn't inadequate to even do that.

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If she were to do what you describe as the "expected" thing for a slave fantasy I'd think she'd express joy at being his slave or a desire to do what he wants or at least a degree of submission toward him, but she honestly comes across very clearly as very much her own person.
This is very disturbing. Raph is literally not 'her own person', or a person at all; she has no rights, she is property (and she's a virgin!). However equal their relationship appears to be, the legal truth is different. The feeling between them work to excuse the fact of slavery, a concept that cannot be excused. Romance between them would merely adorn sex slavery with some pretty personal feelings.

The lie that slaves did not want freedom, or that blacks and women didn't want the vote, was so persistent in our own world because not all the slaves wanted freedom. Writers justified slavery and female oppression for centuries by portraying contented, strong-willed and well-treated slaves or housewives. Such people exist(ed), and were used to hide the abuses, and unjustifiable concept. The contented slave, presented as a positive example of trust rather than a crime against human dignity, is a truth far worse than a lie, that this anime is uncritically presenting.

East-Asian sex slaves are absolutely a thing in modern Japan, as are sex slaves in the UK. Racism in both countries fuels the idea that these girl might not be that badly off, or mind too much, given where they've come from. This is a far, far bigger problem than false rape accusations. This anime...isn't going to help.

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Originally Posted by Dharma View Post
if
This work doesn't strike me as being moralistic. But if you insists - yeah, I can squint hard enough to see it echoing Matthew 7:1. I also noticed lack of self-reflection - even without squinting.
'Not moralistic' was accurate when Naofumi bought a slave. When he let her replace the slave brand, it became morally repugnant to me. Judge it differently for yourself, by all means, but my moral sense is definitely going to effect how I judge the story.

'Do not judge', as I understand, means 'do not condemn', rather than 'ignore sin', and applies to humans only. People have unseen depths, and can repent; Light Novel heroes don't and can't, unless the author writes it. I don't intend to breath a word of condemnation against fans of this show, or the author, but Naofumi is a fictional character and I only wish I could stomp harder.

Last edited by Ghostfriendly; 2019-02-09 at 13:53.
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Old 2019-02-09, 13:52   Link #28
BWTraveller
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Originally Posted by Ghostfriendly View Post
What trauma? Raph has been an abused slave all her life, and it's Naofumi's spirit that was broken? By a few harsh words from an alien society he had no reason to expect any love from anyway. You've shown that replacing the slave brand was an emotional, rather than a practical necessity for Naofumi, which his trumped-up 'trauma' fails to justify.
I never said Raphtalia didn't have trauma either. There can be more than one person with trauma. And yes, being rejected and faced with widespread alienation and persecution for something he didn't do, along with the inability to escape from it, is traumatizing. In one act he was faced with a long, possibly endless situation where everyone with real power wanted to ruin him and almost everyone else either wouldn't serve him without threat or thought they could get away with defrauding or abusing him on account of his position. False accusations are indeed traumatizing, especially when they're widely accepted as fact. Add to that the fact that the first person who offered to help him was the one that ruined him and his perception of the world is one where there's no way to trust anyone unless they're rendered incapable of deceit and betrayal.

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'Jesus-kun' by the way, wasn't comparing Naofumi to Jesus, it's a nickname for Kirito from SAO, similar to 'Gary Stu'. Not a traditional or complete Gary Stu, I grant, but...he's a light novel protagonist.
Actually, the statement still holds if you're comparing him to Kirito. Kirito himself deliberately took on the persecution he received and pursued his path willingly and deliberately. Naofumi had the persecution forced on him against his will. Kirito is modeled to be somewhat like Jesus in certain ways. Naofumi comes across more like Brian.

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However, it is true that lifelong slaves have difficulty in adapting to freedom.
You keep calling her a "lifelong slave", which tells me you haven't been paying much attention at all. She was specifically shown having been raised free until the first or second wave, after which she was enslaved. She's known freedom for the majority of her life, and slavery is something that started only a month or two ago.

Quote:
This is very disturbing. Raph is literally not 'her own person', or a person at all; she has no rights, she is property (and she's a virgin!). However equal their relationship appears to be, the legal truth is different. The feeling between them work to excuse the fact of slavery, a concept that cannot be excused. Romance between them would merely adorn sex slavery with some pretty personal feelings.
For starters, how does "she's a virgin" have anything to do with anything? But yes, legally on paper she is "his property". But your statement here demonstrates the problem that sometimes comes up: absolute disgust toward a particular concept creates an inability to even examine the story. In real life and in general I agree that slavery is one of the closest things to "universal evil". However this was not a story about a person who had a choice himself. He was given only one path that he could take, according to the author, and the point wasn't "how do I give him a slave" but rather "how do I make it most apparent the depths to which necessity can push someone?". The world according to the author is supposed to demonstrate the sort of situation that arises sometimes where one has to make unpleasant decisions and is left afterward with no choice but to shout back at the people that condemn him for them. And as far as his later decision to allow her to restore the seal, you can say yes or no all you want, it's a complicated matter and it was specifically designed to be so.
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Old 2019-02-09, 14:11   Link #29
Ghostfriendly
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Originally Posted by BWTraveller View Post
You keep calling her a "lifelong slave", which tells me you haven't been paying much attention at all. She was specifically shown having been raised free until the first or second wave, after which she was enslaved.
That makes it far worse. Lifelong slavery would justify her inability to deal with freedom. If she was born free, and regards slavery to anybody as a superior state, that's effectively saying slavery is good. Her feelings for Naofumi justify nothing; when love is based on freedom and humanity she's not helped in expressing love by the brand of an unfree dehumanised slave, a brand she should hate. Can you imagine 12 Twelve Years a Slave ending with voluntary sexualised slavery? Because that was Raph's story, that you just watched, presented as a touching romance.

If she was black, this would be racist, and believe me, it's been done.

Quote:
He was given only one path that he could take, according to the author, and the point wasn't "how do I give him a slave" but rather "how do I make it most apparent the depths to which necessity can push someone?".
Presenting slavery as a 'necessity', rather than unacceptable, is the problem. To say nothing of romanticising it. Necessity is not a defence for immoral actions, yet Naofumi is rewarded with the world-saving protagonist spot and a sex slave. His contemptible enemies condemn him and his actions, the story accepts them, even when they're unacceptable. As far as I can see, anything complicated about this story is contrived.

(I'd have preferred a story where 'necessity' led Naofumi to eventually wipe out slave owners and free the slaves. Or just give Raph her freedom, or punish Naofumi meaningfully, or give them matching slave brands, it would be so easy..)

Last edited by Ghostfriendly; 2019-02-09 at 15:14.
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Old 2019-02-09, 14:38   Link #30
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People's obsession with the slavery crest is getting rather worrying to me. Raphatlia doesn't love him because of some warped Master/Slave fetish pandering it's because he is her Hero in her mind.

He came into her life when she was a broken hopeless slave dying of illness with the only thing to look forward to is being sold to other corrupt nobles for their depraved demi-human torture fetishes when Naofumi picked her up instead. Her first impression of him was a cold scary man who was to be the latest in a line of abusers. Instead she received decent equipment, food when she needed it, medicine for her illness. When she had night terrors he comforted her. While he had to push her to do it, she gained the ability to fight and get stronger as well as the means to face against the Curse Wave that stole her life and family from her. She gained the ability to protect others from it as well.

She got the chance to know the strange man who took care of her as well as her needs instead of abusing her. She changed from being a meek timid doll who cowered at life's cruelties into a strong and confident young woman who could face adversity. She learned that Naofumi was a sad, angry, emotionally scarred man. She heard the rumors of his supposed cruelty to women and had to compare it to the gruff kindness and care she received from him. She saw him protect and defend innocents from a village from monsters and go out of his way to save as many as possible. She saw him be a Hero.

She decided that she believed in the kindness and the Hero she saw in Naofumi. She decided that she wanted to protect him. She decided she wanted to save him from those who would hurt him.

What part of any of this sounds like the female party members of the more trashy Isekai stories where the girls exist to be the sexual partners of the Godly OP protagonist? Where they're perfectly happy to be his lust objects and have little to no characterization beyond that?

Yes there is slavery in this story. Yes slavery is terrible. But the slavery in this story isn't meant to be just sexual pandering to the audience and the repeated insistence it is in these threads is getting silly.
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Old 2019-02-09, 15:18   Link #31
BWTraveller
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Originally Posted by Ghostfriendly View Post
That makes it far worse. Lifelong slavery would justify her inability to deal with freedom. If she was born free, and regards slavery to anybody as a superior state, that's effectively saying slavery is good. Her feelings for Naofumi justify nothing; when love is based on freedom and humanity she's not helped in expressing love by the brand of an unfree dehumanised slave, a brand she should hate. Can you imagine 12 Twelve Years a Slave ending with voluntary sexualised slavery? Because that was Raph's story, that you just watched, presented as a touching romance.
Once again you go back to "sexual slavery". The story has shown absolutely no indication of the relationship ever being "sexual". Just because you can find people who present it sexually doesn't mean it's sexual. What it is, as I said before with a reference to another series, is a woman expressing her absolute trust in him, that she knows he would never try to control her at all.

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If she was black, this would be racist, and believe me, it's been done.
I'm sorry but I can't take that line seriously. Yes it's true that it would be called "racist" if it involved ANY real race (at least if it presented it as slavery being the "natural" state for said race or any sort of propriety based on race). But still it's kind of ridiculous.

Quote:
Presenting slavery as a 'necessity', rather than unacceptable, is the problem. To say nothing of romanticising it. As far as I can see, anything complicated in the series is contrived.
As I've said before it's easy to dismiss something you don't like as "contrived", but it's the very nature of the story and world and it frankly came across to me as an absolute necessity by the nature of the situation. The guy was in a position where he couldn't hope to entrust himself to anyone without absolute assurances against betrayal or deceit. And the story does not once "romanticize" slavery. If you want "romanticized" slavery go watch How Not to Summon a Demon Lord or Shinmai or any number of other stories.

I'm sorry but as I've said before I detest absolutism when it's applied to fiction. Every story is different and declaring "this story/character is bad/evil because it/he/she does X" is a little off to me.
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Old 2019-02-09, 15:39   Link #32
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Originally Posted by frodonk View Post
BUT you can't dismiss the fact that there was coercion involved in the first place
So I have two papers, one by high schooler and one by Ph.D. And first one is better. BUT I can't dismiss the fact that it is by high schooler! So I have to throw some tantrums and proclaim it to be worse despite it being better... not.
Who write the paper is somewhat important evidence, especially in real world where it can be indication of something fishy going on, but ultimately it is the paper quality that matters.
Again I am somewhat sympathetic to such view of relationship which can easily be not like it looks from outside. But this is not reality, and we are given from inside-ish view. In presence of direct evidence circumstantial lose importance.
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Old 2019-02-09, 15:49   Link #33
Ghostfriendly
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Originally Posted by BWTraveller View Post
As I've said before it's easy to dismiss something you don't like as "contrived", but it's the very nature of the story and world and it frankly came across to me as an absolute necessity by the nature of the situation. The guy was in a position where he couldn't hope to entrust himself to anyone without absolute assurances against betrayal or deceit. And the story does not once "romanticize" slavery. If you want "romanticized" slavery go watch How Not to Summon a Demon Lord or Shinmai or any number of other stories.
Putting aside our disagreement on whether Naofumi's trauma was in proportion to his experiences, I mentioned several ways in my last post that slavery could have been included in the story and still clearly condemned (free her asap, no excuses). It was a late edit so you may have missed it. Slave brand doesn't symbolise trust, it symbolises slavery, coercion.

They're the hero and heroine of a very generic light novel, they're going to be romanticised. Never watched the other series you mentioned, I'm very conflicted about even watching Ancient Magus' Bride, after all this (but it does look like he frees her, not that hard, SH author...)

I'm afraid human rights are absolute in the real world, and I went to some trouble in my earlier post to show the harmful effects of slavery being depicted other than negatively in fiction.
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Old 2019-02-09, 15:51   Link #34
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I would say that the most contrived and weakest part of Shield Hero are the video games mechanics.
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Old 2019-02-09, 16:17   Link #35
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Originally Posted by Dharma View Post
So I have two papers, one by high schooler and one by Ph.D. And first one is better. BUT I can't dismiss the fact that it is by high schooler! So I have to throw some tantrums and proclaim it to be worse despite it being better... not.
Who write the paper is somewhat important evidence, especially in real world where it can be indication of something fishy going on, but ultimately it is the paper quality that matters.
Everyone can play the write an extreme analogy that's hard to prove it fits or doesn't fit:
Replace Naofumi and Ralph's relationship with that of a canibal and his victim.
Ralph can fall in love with Naofumi all she likes, it doesn't change the fact he's a canibal.
See? easy.
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Again I am somewhat sympathetic to such view of relationship which can easily be not like it looks from outside. But this is not reality, and we are given from inside-ish view. In presence of direct evidence circumstantial lose importance.
Direct evidence:
  • she's a slave
  • he trained her for the sake of combat, to be *his* child soldier
  • she developed feelings of closeness towards him, from the training
The "purity" of these feelings is very much up to interpretation. The post you're quoting clearly stated the problem, and I'll repeating it for you: the present is irrelevant if she was forced into it. She may be happy, but it's an impure relationship. She didn't have any choice of what kind of happiness to pursue, she got forced into happiness of the Naofumi kind. Is Naofumi guilty of tacking her happiness? She's a slave when they met so technically she didn't have control of her happiness, but at the same time once Naofumi took control of her happiness (as a slave master) he never gave it back to her. To be precise, he never let her have any happiness outside of his arm's reach. Any happiness she got, was what Naofumi decided (in some cases, calculated) to give her.

It took the villains to actually give her back control, and Naofumi sure didn't seem to oppose much in the episode when he took her to put the seal back on. The so called "mark of loyalty" some of you are interpreting it as, is as far as I'm concerned is just "the mark of indoctrination." Or why do you all think she put it back on her breasts of all places? instead of say, her hand. Since when does trusting someone require giving the other person a death grip on your own life? only cults and such need brands of absolute loyalty.

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Originally Posted by The Green One View Post
People's obsession with the slavery crest is getting rather worrying to me. Raphatlia doesn't love him because of some warped Master/Slave fetish pandering it's because he is her Hero in her mind.
Her feelings can be genuine. That's how indoctrination works. It's the process that's the problem.

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Originally Posted by The Green One View Post
He came into her life when she was a broken hopeless slave dying of illness with the only thing to look forward to is being sold to other corrupt nobles for their depraved demi-human torture fetishes when Naofumi picked her up instead.
Is forcing your own vision on what her happiness should be like against her will, an excuse of any of the means used to do so, and context in which this was done?

By that same logic, if Naofumi in modern japan were to pick up random lost girl off the street and educate her to be his loving wife that would also be okey right?

- - -

Also about this "lovey dovey" stuff. She's still what... 10?
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Old 2019-02-09, 16:26   Link #36
Tactics
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What I saw is you all who arguing insisting "This anime must be about promoting slavery".
Hardly go far from that, let alone making proper reasoning as if character development and action just go away thanks to your speculation fuel.

If you can consider what happened to Raphtalia is brainwashing, why not say the same to games where you can level up by killing humans? Isn't that the same with promoting violence and murderer? Is it because somewhere I didn't know, murdering people actually good thing?
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Old 2019-02-09, 16:32   Link #37
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All this insisting that what Naofumi (or the anime in general) is doing is bad, it makes me wonder if these are the same people that was getting on Death March's case regarding this issue?
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Old 2019-02-09, 16:56   Link #38
felix
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Originally Posted by Tactics View Post
What I saw is you all who arguing insisting "This anime must be about promoting slavery".
Hardly go far from that, let alone making proper reasoning as if character development and action just go away thanks to your speculation fuel.
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Originally Posted by ShadowSamurai365 View Post
All this insisting that what Naofumi (or the anime in general) is doing is bad, it makes me wonder if these are the same people that was getting on Death March's case regarding this issue?
Do you have any argument or just (obvious) bait?

Arguments that needed to be said were said. If you want to believe you're right, nobody is stopping you, just don't poke on the discussion and it will die. You came in this thread and you're "bothered," and this is somehow everyone else's fault? This thread was specifically created to help people like you not be bothered by the discussion, all you have to do is stay away.

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If you can consider what happened to Raphtalia is brainwashing, why not say the same to games where you can level up by killing humans? Isn't that the same with promoting violence and murderer? Is it because somewhere I didn't know, murdering people actually good thing?
Because games are physical/digital things, and here Raphalia is portrayed as a person. If we were to judge things the same then even a game of chess would be considered genocide. That said, fantasy role-play rules apply. If the show for example were to claim that Raphalia was indeed "being brainwashed" nobody would bat an eye, it's the role-play as "love bird" while being clearly in a cage in context, that's the problem.
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Old 2019-02-09, 17:13   Link #39
BWTraveller
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Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Texas
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghostfriendly View Post
Putting aside our disagreement on whether Naofumi's trauma was in proportion to his experiences, I mentioned several ways in my last post that slavery could have been included in the story and still clearly condemned (free her asap, no excuses). It was a late edit so you may have missed it. Slave brand doesn't symbolise trust, it symbolises slavery, coercion.
The problem is, similar to the thing that was mentioned elsewhere about Naofumi compared to someone from Aldnoah (haven't seen it), you're insisting that something be met with automatic and absolute condemnation/remorse/elimination, which is very unrealistic in fiction. "Automatically free her"? The only reason he took a slave was because it was impossible for him to possibly trust anyone who wasn't one, so doing so would also mean automatically banishing her to live as an orphan in a strange city filled with the same sort of people that enslaved her and sold her previously to a sadist. And as I've said before, there're different ways to view anything. I understand that you view slavery with a very absolutist POV, where anything related to slavery is automatically horribly evil and can only mean coercion. My point of view differs. Anything a person chooses to accept of their own accord I'm OK with as long as I don't see evidence the other party would refuse to take back.

Quote:
I'm afraid human rights are absolute in the real world, and I went to some trouble in my earlier post to show the harmful effects of slavery being depicted other than negatively in fiction.
Did I ever say human rights in the real world weren't absolute? I believe in the past I'd said that this only works in fiction. And your claim again depends largely on exactly how things play out in a story.
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Old 2019-02-09, 17:44   Link #40
ShadowSamurai365
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Join Date: Jun 2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
Do you have any argument or just (obvious) bait?

Arguments that needed to be said were said. If you want to believe you're right, nobody is stopping you, just don't poke on the discussion and it will die. You came in this thread and you're "bothered," and this is somehow everyone else's fault? This thread was specifically created to help people like you not be bothered by the discussion, all you have to do is stay away.

Because games are physical/digital things, and here Raphalia is portrayed as a person. If we were to judge things the same then even a game of chess would be considered genocide. That said, fantasy role-play rules apply. If the show for example were to claim that Raphalia was indeed "being brainwashed" nobody would bat an eye, it's the role-play as "love bird" while being clearly in a cage in context, that's the problem.
The reason I brought it up is because it seems that no matter the actions that Naofumi does (and there's plenty of people not only in this thread, but also on others that gave exact details of his good actions and Raphtalia's reason for doing so. Then there's also the account of other reasons/actions to this, the circumstances of the world, and etc.) that said otherwise, as long as it's that ONE single thing that someone doesn't like, it just seem like the multiple, good things that that he had done is completely null and void.

And the reason I brought up Death March is that (if I recall), the main character also has slaves under him; and that the show not only show the MC treating his slaves (as he didn't release them) as regular people and not slaves (like Naofumi has done), but also had the MC training the slave girls to raise their levels (like Naofumi has done). Also, if I recall, there was a reason given why they weren't released from their slavery (since the MC didn't want slaves to begin with, and was about to just send them on their way).

So all of this insisting that Naofumi/the show is doing something bad for these reasons, it makes me wonder if the MC of that show was also blasted with the same criticism.
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