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View Poll Results: Tate no Yuusha/Shield Hero - Episode 15 Rating
Perfect 10 2 13.33%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 6 40.00%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 0 0%
7 out of 10 : Good 3 20.00%
6 out of 10 : Average 2 13.33%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 6.67%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 6.67%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 15. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2019-04-17, 09:32   Link #1
Kairin
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Tate no Yuusha/Shield Hero - Episode 15 Discussion / Poll

Welcome to the discussion thread for Tate no Yuusha/Shield Hero, Episode 15.

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Old 2019-04-17, 10:14   Link #2
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This is one of those episode that makes you want to punch something after watching it...
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Old 2019-04-17, 10:19   Link #3
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I was ready for this episode but honestly this was so sad, watching what happened to Raphtalia, Keel and Rifana. The part that got me was when Raphtalia found Rifana's remnants, I remember when I read that part but watching it is completely different, I'm glad that Raphtalia now have people around her that loves and support her, Naofumi was remarkable this episode too and that final part with Raph and Rifana talking to each other was very well done.

Next episode T-Rex and more battles.
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Old 2019-04-17, 11:37   Link #4
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Sheesh Tubby sure was a sicko wasn't he? This week we probably got more of a look than we ever wanted at poor Raphtalia's tragic backstory. Village destroyed, parents killed, village remains raided and people enslaved, ending up in a fat bastard's torture dungeon.

Sadly Japan's culture views are in full play and we learn our "thou shall not kill for revenge" lesson we've seen about a few infinity times before. I dunno, after all that I'd think you'd want to see some blood. Ah well, culture differences. Sadly her best friend was unable to be saved and it was sad to hear Raphtalia's brokenhearted crying. At least her other friend was able to be rescued along with two extras who don't actually matter.

Turns out lard bucket survived his fall and summoned Jurassic Park to get squished for his trouble. Cmon Trex couldn't you have eaten him or something? I mean look at the meat on that butterball.

Next time. The crew vs Trex.
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Old 2019-04-17, 11:58   Link #5
Dengar
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I don't really think that's a real culture difference between here and there.

Here in the west, revenge is usually frowned upon as well. We tend to prefer punishing individuals over killing them.
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Old 2019-04-17, 12:28   Link #6
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It kind of reminded me of Mazinger's beginning that first scene:

"You shouldn't kill him" 5 seconds later "Oh, that escalated quickly"

In Mazinger Z, Go Nagai basically wrote this exchange
-You killed this guy in selfdefence. Don't worry you are no going to jail.
-Thanks god I'm the protagonist
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Old 2019-04-17, 12:42   Link #7
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This episode was true to its title, all about Raphtalia. Really sad. Idol deserved a worse fate than being stepped on by a CGI dinosaur.

Will Keel be the first male member of the party and "ruin" Naofumi's harem or will they just drop him off with the other two kids somewhere?

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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
I don't really think that's a real culture difference between here and there.

Here in the west, revenge is usually frowned upon as well. We tend to prefer punishing individuals over killing them.
Yeah. "If you kill me, you'll be as bad as I am" is a trope present everywhere.

It was handled very awkwardly here though. Raphtalia refuses to kill Idol because she doesn't want to be as bad as him, then accidentally kills him and agonizes over it only for it to be revealed he was actually just fine. Felt really cheap.
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Old 2019-04-17, 12:42   Link #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Green One View Post
Sheesh Tubby sure was a sicko wasn't he? This week we probably got more of a look than we ever wanted at poor Raphtalia's tragic backstory. Village destroyed, parents killed, village remains raided and people enslaved, ending up in a fat bastard's torture dungeon.

Sadly Japan's culture views are in full play and we learn our "thou shall not kill for revenge" lesson we've seen about a few infinity times before. I dunno, after all that I'd think you'd want to see some blood. Ah well, culture differences. Sadly her best friend was unable to be saved and it was sad to hear Raphtalia's brokenhearted crying. At least her other friend was able to be rescued along with two extras who don't actually matter.

Turns out lard bucket survived his fall and summoned Jurassic Park to get squished for his trouble. Cmon Trex couldn't you have eaten him or something? I mean look at the meat on that butterball.

Next time. The crew vs Trex.
That's hardly a "Japanese culture" thing. Just about every superhero story I've seen where the hero took vengeance on someone who killed a loved one, a point is made about how empty and futile it is, and in many cases if they encounter someone else trying to engage in vengeance they do their best to convince them not to, that it'd just leave them empty and broken, searching for another villain to hate.

Of course, karma is also a big point and most of the time even if the hero doesn't kill the villain they still die. Either that or they try to kill the hero or someone else and thus give the hero an excuse.
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Old 2019-04-17, 12:53   Link #9
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Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
Idol deserved a worse fate than being stepped on by a CGI dinosaur.
I love it when a hateable guy dies unceremoniously.

I've seen comment sections where people feel sorry for the dinosaur for stepping into something more disgusting than poop.
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Old 2019-04-17, 15:38   Link #10
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In honor of Raphtalia's tragic backstory and this episode, I'll just assume that Melty's a sheltered princess and couldn't have possibly thought that the kingdom's policy of enslaving demis would lead to sad stories like this, and that's why skinny stealthy guy needed to explain to her that similar stories are happening throughout the kingdom.

And please stop teasing us on why the queen can't leave her current location whenever she's shown! This isn't the first time she has hinted that there's a reason why she can't go to the king and punish him herself, just tell us already!
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Old 2019-04-17, 16:49   Link #11
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Wonder why they changed the part with Rifana.

Both in the LN and Manga, Raphtalia already knew that Rifana was dead, because she died in-front of her, and it was her death that in a way mentally broke Raphtalia (before Naofumi found her).

Also, there wasn't much dialogue featuring Keel, since Keel was quite weak. Also Keel was wary of Naofumi all along (even after Keel knew that Naofumi was the Shield Hero).

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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
I love it when a hateable guy dies unceremoniously.
But i prefer when there is a hint of reality in those situations, aka., hate-able guys stay alive longer, when good guys die earlier, because that's the system of the world.
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Old 2019-04-17, 18:34   Link #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huh...?
Both in the LN and Manga, Raphtalia already knew that Rifana was dead, because she died in-front of her, and it was her death that in a way mentally broke Raphtalia (before Naofumi found her).
I got the feeling that Rifana was dead when Raphtalia woke up that last morning in the cell. Raphtalia called Rifana's name, but there was no reaction or movement, but then the moment got interrupted by the guard calling for her.

The skeleton on the floor was likely due to one of the guards trying to drag her out when she didn't respond, realizing she was dead, and just leaving her there. It matches the fact that she still had the flag in her hand, plus the time needed for her body to mostly decay (since it's been a couple months since Naofumi purchased Raphtalia).

In any case, I suspect that Raphtalia kinda knew, but didn't really let herself know. She forgot how to smile as she was shipped out, even though she was smiling for Rifana the night before. There's a sort of unacknowledged trauma that must have occurred in that time period, and there's only one thing that could have done that. At the same time, she buried it deep in her subconscious, and only truly remembered it after seeing Rifana's body.

Overall, I think it was well done, and was clearly done to bring the feels at the moment that Raphtalia found Rifana's body, as everything came crashing down.


On the other hand, when I think through that moment, to after Naofumi purchased her, I wonder what it would have been like if she hadn't lost that "never stop smiling" mindset. If Naofumi had used those punishments on her, and she kept smiling through it, that would have been disturbing as hell.
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Old 2019-04-17, 18:39   Link #13
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I heard that in the LN

Spoiler for comparison:


That makes a hell of a lot more sense than what the anime did. The change is very puzzling.
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Old 2019-04-17, 19:06   Link #14
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Originally Posted by Huh...? View Post
Wonder why they changed the part with Rifana.

Both in the LN and Manga, Raphtalia already knew that Rifana was dead, because she died in-front of her, and it was her death that in a way mentally broke Raphtalia (before Naofumi found her).
While watching the episode I thought the changes were because anime had chickened out from showing Rifana's remains.
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Old 2019-04-17, 19:20   Link #15
Kinematics
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frodonk
In honor of Raphtalia's tragic backstory and this episode, I'll just assume that Melty's a sheltered princess and couldn't have possibly thought that the kingdom's policy of enslaving demis would lead to sad stories like this, and that's why skinny stealthy guy needed to explain to her that similar stories are happening throughout the kingdom.
Pretty much.

I've actually been thinking about Melty more, lately. They're really doing a good job of revealing just a little bit more of the world to her each episode she's in, gradually bringing her around from the idyllic dutiful princess she started out as. In fact, her early self reminds me of other princess stereotypes.

I was rewatching the show with some friends, and we went through episode 9, where Melty officially introduces herself at the end, in prep to ask a favor of Naofumi (almost certainly the same thing she asked later: that he apologize to the king and reconcile). That second viewing, Melty felt a bit different than I remembered from the first time I watched. Basically, the first time through, I think I saw her more like Filo sees her: nice, polite, and genuinely wanting to help. The second time through, though, I think I saw her as Naofumi saw her: the subtle arrogance and assumed authority of a noble, with expectations of those who listen to her.

And at that moment, I could see exactly why Naofumi did (and should) reject her like that. It was strange, because while I could intellectually understand his actions easily enough the first time, I couldn't really see the velvet-covered rigidness until after I'd seen her loosen up more in later episodes. As Reichnott said, she had changed. The studio really did do an excellent job of conveying that, while still keeping it quite subtle. (I think it was harder to see in the first viewing because the happy-go-lucky Melty was mostly conveyed in a montage, rather than actively acting as a character.)

In any case, over a series of episodes, Melty as had to deal with:

1) Her own guard attempting to assassinate her, and then using doctored footage to frame the person she was trying to negotiate with.

2) Finally being told of the events that led to the rift between the King and Naofumi, and thus why Naofumi had no interest in "apologizing".

3) Being attacked by her sister in a clear attempt to kill her, all while defaming the hero that she felt it was her duty to reconcile with.

4) Finding out that Melromarc soldiers were the "rioters" that attacked Raphtalia's village.

5) Finding out that Raphtalia had been enslaved and tortured by a major noble, and that this activity wasn't exactly unusual in the country.


Each time, Melty has expressed feelings along the lines of believing it was her (or royalty in general's) duty to fix the wrongs that had been done. Yet at the same time, the things that she believes in — the King, the military, the nobles — that she would expect to be the instrument of fixing these wrongs, each turn out to be the corrupt perpetrators of the wrongs she wants to fix.

The only major institution that I don't think she's grokked the corruption of is the church, but if things continue on course, I expect that to be rubbed in her face in the near future, too. She also hasn't quite cottoned on to the idea of slavery as an institution being bad, either.

Regardless, she has (or will have, in the near future) every major system in the kingdom that she knows of (except possibly the Queen) shown to her to be corrupt, and the source of the problems in the country. The thing is, all of her power depends on those systems. You can't have a kingdom without an army, or without the cooperation of the nobles and the church. The nobles have to recognize you as a proper authority, or they'll turn on you and overthrown the crown. The church is the only source that everyone will recognize as granting legitimate authority to the crown. And if the army doesn't follow you, well, military coup, anyone?

Melty is the crown princess, the next in line to the throne. Yet, for all her ostensible power, what can she actually do? She promised to bring the soldiers that attacked Raphtalia's village to justice, but when the entire system is corrupt from the top down, what does that promise even mean? Can she punish those soldiers? Would there be any meaning to it when the act of enslaving all those people and sending them off to be the toys of nobles throughout the kingdom is already done? And she's only the crown princess; she'd have to petition the Queen or King to actually act. She can't even get the King to reconcile with Naofumi just by asking; can she ask for something more serious?

The only leverage she has is the Queen, and we still know so little about her. Slavery is a thing, which means the Queen has to have allowed it. How much can she actually change? How much is she willing to change?


While I truly enjoy Naofumi and Raphtalia's stories (and obviously, Raph's story here was fantastic), Melty's little side story is one I really look forward to. The politics of this story are a major hook, and Melty's position on the inside of all that makes her relation to it all that much more engaging.

Last edited by Kinematics; 2019-04-17 at 22:43.
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Old 2019-04-17, 19:57   Link #16
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It just goes to show you that Naofumi really has changed from the beginning when he's the one talking somebody down from enacting their rightful revenge against someone. Actually, I think this is probably the episode where Naofumi has felt the most like a "hero" in the traditional sense by saving people and inspiring those around him .

I wouldn't even blame Raphtalia for Idol falling from that window. Sure she stabbed him with her non-lethal sword and threw him off, but he tripped on his own whip .

It's almost easy to forget when Raphtalia is usually this happy and strong woman in Naofumi's party how much trauma and tragedy she's had to bear in her life, and here we get to see in full just how bad her life was before Naofumi took her in. She lost her family, her village, her freedom, her friends, and was tortured on-top of all that, and it wasn't until she was separated from Rafina that she finally broke. It makes the fact that Naofumi was able to make her happy, and smile again, all the more meaningful .

Seeing Rafina's remains...that was rough, no moreso then it must have been for Raphtalia .

Man, the Demi-Humans have it really rough in the kingdom if what Idol was doing to them is actually far more common then Melty was led to believe. Like, seriously, what did the Demi-Humans do to deserve this treatment beyond being animal people? Were things this bad for them back when the queen was directly in charge? Melty sure has her work cut out for her reforming Melromarc .

At least Raphtalia can now carry on the will of the other Demi-Humans and Rafina...maybe even her dream of marrying the Shield Hero .

Welp, surprise Boss Battle .
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Old 2019-04-17, 22:21   Link #17
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Originally Posted by Kinematics View Post
Regardless, she has (or will have, in the near future) every major system in the kingdom that she knows of (except possibly the Queen) shown to her to be corrupt, and the source of the problems in the country. The thing is, all of her power depends on those systems. You can't have a kingdom without an army, or without the cooperation of the nobles and the church. The nobles have to recognize you as a proper authority, or they'll turn on you and overthrown the crown. The church is the only source that everyone will recognize and granting legitimate authority to the crown. And if the army doesn't follow you, well, military coup, anyone?

Melty is the crown princess, the next in line to the throne. Yet, for all her ostensible power, what can she actually do? She promised to bring the soldiers that attacked Raphtalia's village to justice, but when the entire system is corrupt from the top down, what does that promise even mean? Can she punish those soldiers? Would there be any meaning to it when the act of enslaving all those people and sending them off to be the toys of nobles throughout the kingdom is already done? And she's only the crown princess; she'd have to petition the Queen or King to actually act. She can't even get the King to reconcile with Naofumi just by asking; can she ask for something more serious?

The only leverage she has is the Queen, and we still know so little about her. Slavery is a thing, which means the Queen has to have allowed it. How much can she actually change? How much is she willing to change?
As much as I would like to see where the plot will go to answer your questions I think even the source material hasn't touched upon these questions yet, (maybe) therefore it will never be answered in the anime

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Originally Posted by Huh...? View Post
Wonder why they changed the part with Rifana.

Both in the LN and Manga, Raphtalia already knew that Rifana was dead, because she died in-front of her, and it was her death that in a way mentally broke Raphtalia (before Naofumi found her).
This would've made waaay too much sense, I know Raphtalia could've had mental issues because she was enslaved, but seeing Rifana die before her would've explained perfectly why she was in that state when Nao found her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
I heard that in the LN

Spoiler for comparison:


That makes a hell of a lot more sense than what the anime did. The change is very puzzling.
If this is the way how it happened in this episode then Nao's words of "this isn't your fault" would not have been too believable. They really had to amp up Raphtalia's tragic backstory so that's probably why that was changed.
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Old 2019-04-17, 22:40   Link #18
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Originally Posted by frodonk View Post
:



This would've made waaay too much sense, I know Raphtalia could've had mental issues because she was enslaved, but seeing Rifana die before her would've explained perfectly why she was in that state when Nao found her.

I mean even in the anime...Raphtalia was on the verge of death and she lost everything. Even if it wasn't explicitly shown, Raphtalia had to of had an idea that Rifana would not be making it out of there in her current state. Yeah, she had that glimmer of hope after she made it back there and was able to search for her...but even the guard told her that Rifana was done for. I think it was just wishful thinking on Raphtalia's part about Rifana still being alive.

A little girl can only take so much. Even if she is a very emotionally strong character I think she has been through more than enough for it to break her before Naofumi was able to find and save her.
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Old 2019-04-17, 23:15   Link #19
Kinematics
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I heard that in the LN

Spoiler for comparison:


That makes a hell of a lot more sense than what the anime did. The change is very puzzling.
I was really, really hoping that Raphtalia would stab the guy. It was one of those hopefully-cathartic moments, both for the character and the viewer. I also really dislike that stupid "I'll be like him if I kill him" trope. Even if you're not going to kill the bastard, there are many other ways to feel and express the idea, and choosing that particular route inevitably feels like a loss of characterization. That is, if Raphtalia is not going to kill Idol, why would she make that choice? What part of her character decided on that route? Cheap trope is not her character, which makes the scene just a morality rubberstamp that really breaks immersion.

Having said all that, I'd like to consider that question seriously. Would Raphtalia, as developed in the story so far, kill Idol? If so, why? If not, why not? (Secondary: If she had known Rifana was dead before the confrontation, would the answer have changed?)

1) Raphtalia is part of the Shield Hero's party. Fair or not, killing Idol would have put a legitimate stamp of evilness on Naofumi's back that Mein/the church/the king/etc could have used against them, and Raphtalia wouldn't do that no matter how much she wanted her own personal revenge.

2) Something that's brought up as a joke often enough, but Raphtalia is still mentally a young girl. She's grown a lot, physically, but mentally is still a mix of adult and child. While she kills monsters easily enough, she has always acted non-lethally against humans. As much as I personally might want Idol dead, actually deliberately killing someone is not an easy hurdle to cross; even less so for a young girl.

3) While I dislike the trope, it does hint at a certain truth, mostly from its association with Batman: Once you kill one such monster, it becomes much easier to kill the next monster, and to justify why the one after that is also a monster that needs killing. And Melromarc has shown itself to be absolutely loaded with people where the "He needed killin'" defense seems legit.

4) Raphtalia's mom and dad tried to instill in her an attitude of smiling, and staying positive, even in the toughest times. Raphtalia does not need, or want, to become an edgelord. A Raphtalia who was a murderer would not have been able to help Naofumi the way she did.

5) Speaking of... What does Raphtalia think that Naofumi would think of her if she killed this man? No matter how much Idol deserved it, if she killed him, murdered him, can you imagine how she would feel under Naofumi's gaze? No matter how Naofumi actually felt (and I'm certain he would have completely understood and supported her decision), it leaves behind the idea that she's now "unclean". This, I think, was the largest part of her thinking, and holding her back from acting on her impulses of the moment.


On the other hand, revenge doesn't help the dead, but it does prevent more from joining them, and Raphtalia's goal is to prevent tragedies like this from happening ever again. However, would it help? Or would it just provide more justification for the nobility of Melromarc to believe that demi-humans are dangerous monsters who need to be kept enslaved? This is a series that loves its consequences, and that would be a major one that logically follows.


Either way, Raphtalia was teetering on the edge of lopping off Idol's head before Naofumi spoke up. She very much wanted to kill him, but had a ton of internal conflict keeping her from finally committing.

Naofumi's comment "Will killing him help you get closure?" I don't think was enough to sway her choice. I think it would have helped her get closure. It's the followup that caused her to back down: "It's not just with the sword, right? Haven't you grown stronger in other ways?" The hint of a third path that it's not just a choice between killing him and letting him go, but that she's strong enough that her victory isn't solely reliant on her sword. That she can win without killing him. That she can protect people without becoming a murderer. That she's in a position where she can make a difference in people's lives, and that Idol is not an obstacle to her doing so. He's not the wall she has to climb; she has already climbed that wall, and he's behind her now.


Naofumi didn't tell her not to kill Idol, but he made her realize she didn't have to kill Idol. And, even if I think there were probably better word choices that could have been used, I can see what she meant when she said she wouldn't be any different than him. It wasn't that she'd be a slaver and child torturer, or even a murderer; it was that she would be trapped in the narrow-minded view of self-gratification. That she wouldn't be able to see beyond what was important to her, to what was important to all the people she cared about.

And perhaps most importantly, she'd be choosing her own path, rather than the Hero's path. It was certainly a path open to her if she wanted it Naofumi wouldn't stop her, as he wants her to be able to choose her own path but it would be a selfish path. She would be acting as Raphtalia's Sword, instead of Naofumi's Sword.


~~

So, even if I personally would have preferred a blood splatter across the room, and even if I think their word choice could have used some work, I can understand why they made the choice in how they presented things as they did. Idol isn't the obstacle Raphtalia has to beat to put her past behind her. She's already stronger than that.
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Old 2019-04-18, 00:22   Link #20
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Yeah, I am not a fan of this episode. I have already read the manga version of this episode long ago and already knew what this episode contained, but the thing that I disliked the most is how hard this episode is trying to sell Raphtalia as the perfect waifu.

Not only is she sooo good that she as a kid (she still is one no matter how she looks) was the one to try and rally her village (because on anime land adults never now how to do anything), but apparently she is also above getting revenge on a piece of shit that deserves it (this is without mentioning how they keep making her backstory even more bleak the more they show of it to make us care about her. We get it, she had it bad, no need to over do it).
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