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Old 2019-02-02, 19:47   Link #1
felix
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Shield Hero - The Slave Seal (Anime-only; only mention it here)[No Spoilers]

Discussion thread for anything related to the slave seal. Be it positive, negative, analysis or off-handed comments mentioning it. This thread is for everyone, no spoilers of future events.

Please post anything related to the slave seal here.
Be it people who don't mind it, or the people who have an issue with it, nobody wants to see topics or comments related to it in the episode threads or general discussion.

Last edited by felix; 2019-02-03 at 11:39.
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Old 2019-02-02, 20:17   Link #2
felix
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Mostly replying since I don't like empty threads...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BWTraveller View Post
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by BWTraveller View Post
Hard to say if he's really absolutely trusting of her. Yes, she calmed him down and convinced him to trust her, but that little voice of doubt isn't killed so easily. There'll always be the risk that when something happens he'll second-guess her intent, wonder if she, like Mein, has just been playing him and will betray him for her own benefit. And even if it just flips through his mind for a second, the momentary hesitation could be fatal on the battlefield. It could be that he doesn't need her to have it anymore, but there is something to gain: it'd be a way for her to demonstrate her faith in him and determination to prove her loyalty.
Is this an excuse to make her a slave again?

Counter points:
  1. she can play him as a slave as well! if she has ulterior motives then him making her a slave doesn't really change anything in their current "business" does it
  2. if there was doubt before the slave seal goes on, then congratulations you just made it even more doubtful with it on; how exactly is "you have to be humiliated 24/7 for me to trust you" solving anything? (see point 1)
  3. he never turned on the dangerous stuff as I recall from earlier discussion, so he doesn't seem to care as much as you make it out
I honestly don't get what you're saying. How would her willingly having the seal replaced "change nothing" concerning possible ulterior motives? And how would it make his doubts worse? She'd be deliberately have made it so that she can't deceive or betray him, stopping her from doing anything to him. And why would he even have any use for any additional options beyond "can't deceive me", "can't disobey me" and "can't hurt me"? For security that's all that's needed. And in any case, if she willingly sought to have it restored, it would be a very strong demonstration of her trust in him as well as a way to reassure him in case of any lingering doubts. It's like taking all your weapons and giving them to someone.
Trust generally has to go both ways. Requesting the slave seal is a sign of distrust. Distrust will eventually go both ways; outside of course "blind one-sided love"

You're right in that she's under a spell that restrains her with it on, but this clearly doesn't remove free thought. If she really wants to turn on him then I can actually think of a few ways she can kill him even with the magic on her. She's not the weak scared little girl anymore.
  • misleading or open to interpretation suggestions; you can spin anything positively even a scenario you know may be very dangerous
  • flawed battle strategy; if she does a pattern that is likely to cause accidents but avoids thinking of specifics, it probably won't count
  • self inflicted injury; if she can't physically do it, then it's not a breach of orders, there's no command that says she can't injure herself.
  • always going for risky gambles; you'll eventually get lucky and fail, and it's not a breach of orders
  • get close while he's sleeping, use some sort of pain numbing potion, kill him though the pain

Planting the seed for distrust far out weights the "benefits" IMO.

Other problems:
  • his pillar of support (her trust in him) crumbles, crushed by his own hands; again outside the very convenient case of "blind one-sided love" of course
  • he is now truly a "slave dealer" by putting it on her; it's one thing to buy one, another to make one (him "owning her" doesn't matter here). If someone faults him for it, I wouldn't feel any sympathy for him even if it was Mayne or the heroes.
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Old 2019-02-02, 21:07   Link #3
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Originally Posted by felix View Post

Trust generally has to go both ways. Requesting the slave seal is a sign of distrust. Distrust will eventually go both ways; outside of course "blind one-sided love"
Wouldn't that depend on who requests it? If it's by the request of Raphtalia to alleviate that tiny bit of still lingering distrust then I don't see it as much of an issue.

Quote:
You're right in that she's under a spell that restrains her with it on, but this clearly doesn't remove free thought. If she really wants to turn on him then I can actually think of a few ways she can kill him even with the magic on her. She's not the weak scared little girl anymore.
I look at it from another perspective. Naofumi doesn't think that Raphtalia is in cahoots with the king or that she wants to kill him...He merely thought that if she were given the chance, she would abandon him(and probably join Motoyasu). His wounds run deep and if this helps to alleviate them then it would be a testament to Raphtalia's loyalty. She said it herself; she knows him more than anyone else in the world. She knows he would never abuse the power over her(at this point), so it becomes merely a symbol of the faith she has for him. That said, I don't think it would put a damper on their relationship because regardless of Naofumis trust issues he has still shown how much he cares for Raphtalia and that he possesses heroic qualities. Raphtalia notices these things more clearly than he does. An example is how he claimed that he didn't save the the town for the villagers and yet earlier in the same episode he was brooding over how he could have saved more villagers if he knew about the teleport system. Raphtalia knows that his actions are noble while Naofumi thinks all of his actions are for self-interest. Whether it's because he's in denial or that he started to believe all of the bad things people have been saying about him--only time will tell. The fact remains that Raphtalia understands him better than he understands his current self.
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Old 2019-02-02, 21:26   Link #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
Mostly replying since I don't like empty threads...

Trust generally has to go both ways. Requesting the slave seal is a sign of distrust. Distrust will eventually go both ways; outside of course "blind one-sided love"

You're right in that she's under a spell that restrains her with it on, but this clearly doesn't remove free thought. If she really wants to turn on him then I can actually think of a few ways she can kill him even with the magic on her. She's not the weak scared little girl anymore.
  • misleading or open to interpretation suggestions; you can spin anything positively even a scenario you know may be very dangerous
  • flawed battle strategy; if she does a pattern that is likely to cause accidents but avoids thinking of specifics, it probably won't count
  • self inflicted injury; if she can't physically do it, then it's not a breach of orders, there's no command that says she can't injure herself.
  • always going for risky gambles; you'll eventually get lucky and fail, and it's not a breach of orders
  • get close while he's sleeping, use some sort of pain numbing potion, kill him though the pain

Planting the seed for distrust far out weights the "benefits" IMO.

Other problems:
  • his pillar of support (her trust in him) crumbles, crushed by his own hands; again outside the very convenient case of "blind one-sided love" of course
  • he is now truly a "slave dealer" by putting it on her; it's one thing to buy one, another to make one (him "owning her" doesn't matter here). If someone faults him for it, I wouldn't feel any sympathy for him even if it was Mayne or the heroes.
I agree if he asks her to get the seal remade. My entire point was the hypothetical of her choosing of her own accord to restore the seal. If he asked then yeah it'd hurt their trust. But if she herself went to the slaver and asked to have the slave seal rebuilt then it could be viewed as a symbol of her own trust in him. This makes a huge difference. Just like the difference between someone asking you to give them all your weapons compared to you offering them without request. The first says he doesn't trust you and you're giving a person who doubts you the power to hurt you, while the second says you trust him and want to express your faith.
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Old 2019-02-03, 11:37   Link #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
Wouldn't that depend on who requests it? If it's by the request of Raphtalia to alleviate that tiny bit of still lingering distrust then I don't see it as much of an issue.
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Originally Posted by BWTraveller View Post
I agree if he asks her to get the seal remade. My entire point was the hypothetical of her choosing of her own accord to restore the seal. If he asked then yeah it'd hurt their trust.
That indeed has no issues. I did not ignore this angle, it falls in the blind one-sided love category I mentioned.

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Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
I look at it from another perspective. Naofumi doesn't think that Raphtalia is in cahoots with the king or that she wants to kill him...He merely thought that if she were given the chance, she would abandon him(and probably join Motoyasu). His wounds run deep and if this helps to alleviate them then it would be a testament to Raphtalia's loyalty. She said it herself; she knows him more than anyone else in the world. She knows he would never abuse the power over her(at this point), so it becomes merely a symbol of the faith she has for him. That said, I don't think it would put a damper on their relationship because regardless of Naofumis trust issues he has still shown how much he cares for Raphtalia and that he possesses heroic qualities. Raphtalia notices these things more clearly than he does. An example is how he claimed that he didn't save the the town for the villagers and yet earlier in the same episode he was brooding over how he could have saved more villagers if he knew about the teleport system. Raphtalia knows that his actions are noble while Naofumi thinks all of his actions are for self-interest. Whether it's because he's in denial or that he started to believe all of the bad things people have been saying about him--only time will tell. The fact remains that Raphtalia understands him better than he understands his current self.
I have no problem with this point of view but do have a small nitpick with the testament of her loyalty bit. You are right, it would be a testament of her loyalty. But so is her standing by his side day by day with out it afterwards. One is a moment in time where she shows a "testament of her loyalty" one is long term recurring process.

Of course understandably the way plot works in these stories, character personalities are pretty absolute when it comes to their alignment. Hence why I said it's merely a nitpick, since due to the laws of the narrative, it is actually more-or-less equivalent to permanent.
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Old 2019-02-04, 09:54   Link #6
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So this show isn't altogether promoting slavery as a good and happy state, but I'm not convinced that it's showing Naofumi the slaveowner as a bad guy. Anti-heroes who do bad things for good reasons or otherwise, like Eugene Onegin, Char Ansible or Slaine Troyard, should be contrasted with upright heroes, punished with failure, or painfully conscious of their sins, if a work wants to make any claim to morality. When Naofumi has saved the world, and is surrounded by more unlikable characters, the audience is clearly being driven to sympathise with him, and the credo that his personal feelings matter more than right and wrong. I don't sympathise with Naofumi's feelings one bit, his suffering is weaksauce compared to Slaine Troyard or Guts, and as a deconstruction of the single self-righteous heroes the other three guys are meant to send up, Naofumi is just more of the same with black clothes and piercings.
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Old 2019-02-04, 10:28   Link #7
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if a work wants to make any claim to morality
if
This work doesn't strike me as being moralistic. But if you insists - yeah, I can squint hard enough to see it echoing Matthew 7:1. I also noticed lack of self-reflection - even without squinting.
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Old 2019-02-04, 12:09   Link #8
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So this show isn't altogether promoting slavery as a good and happy state, but I'm not convinced that it's showing Naofumi the slaveowner as a bad guy. Anti-heroes who do bad things for good reasons or otherwise, like Eugene Onegin, Char Ansible or Slaine Troyard, should be contrasted with upright heroes, punished with failure, or painfully conscious of their sins, if a work wants to make any claim to morality. When Naofumi has saved the world, and is surrounded by more unlikable characters, the audience is clearly being driven to sympathise with him, and the credo that his personal feelings matter more than right and wrong. I don't sympathise with Naofumi's feelings one bit, his suffering is weaksauce compared to Slaine Troyard or Guts, and as a deconstruction of the single self-righteous heroes the other three guys are meant to send up, Naofumi is just more of the same with black clothes and piercings.
"Slavery is bad" does not equal "every slave owner is a bad guy".
By the way, Slaine is a joke (and so is everything else in that anime).
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Old 2019-02-04, 12:38   Link #9
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Originally Posted by Ghostfriendly View Post
So this show isn't altogether promoting slavery as a good and happy state, but I'm not convinced that it's showing Naofumi the slaveowner as a bad guy. Anti-heroes who do bad things for good reasons or otherwise, like Eugene Onegin, Char Ansible or Slaine Troyard, should be contrasted with upright heroes, punished with failure, or painfully conscious of their sins, if a work wants to make any claim to morality. When Naofumi has saved the world, and is surrounded by more unlikable characters, the audience is clearly being driven to sympathise with him, and the credo that his personal feelings matter more than right and wrong. I don't sympathise with Naofumi's feelings one bit, his suffering is weaksauce compared to Slaine Troyard or Guts, and as a deconstruction of the single self-righteous heroes the other three guys are meant to send up, Naofumi is just more of the same with black clothes and piercings.
Of course it isn't showing Naofumi as a "bad guy". He's NOT a bad guy. He may not have suffered in the same ways as others but he's suffered, and honestly saying he "suffered less" or he "suffered more" is ridiculous unless the nature of the suffering has significant similarity, which to my knowledge it does not. Frankly it sounds rather high and mighty to say "a guy who did something should be knocked down or forced to live with guilt", especially when it's someone who didn't really have a choice. We've all sinned and fallen short; rather than saying "this guy's not good enough so we should be taught to hate him or judge him", I'd say "this guy's flawed like all of us so we should watch how he deals and how he grows to be a person". Additionally, I am not getting any of this "his feelings matter more than morals" stuff you claim. Yes he's hurt and lashing out, but it's not so simple as you make it out to be. The people on the other side are persecuting him for acts he didn't do and legal acts he took out of necessity given his situation. And Forsaken, I'd say the 7:1 reference you're suggesting is kind of reverse. Naofumi isn't "judging" other people. He's been persecuted and judged and he's just lashing out by pointing out to them that they're not beyond judgment either, by any stretch.

I'm sorry but I love antiheroes. They just seem more real and their good sides shine brighter as a result of their darkness. A pigeon knowing how to fly is no big deal, and a man who has nothing to lose from altruism and plenty motivation to do good committing altruistic acts is just obvious, while a bitter man who can't afford to be gentle and has reason to hate showing love instead, even just a bit, is far more impressive, like watching a FISH that learned how to fly. Additionally, we're at what, episode 4? The hero's journey has just begun, and he's only had a few weeks to deal with his messed up new reality. Wounds take time to heal.

Lastly, you want a hero feeling the weight of their sins? Well Naofumi certainly doesn't think he's a good guy. He made it clear in his talk with Raphtalia that he has a fairly low opinion of himself. He's sort of a paradox. He's made a villain out of himself, and he's simultaneously coming up with villainous excuses for committing dark acts and devising reasons why any good he does isn't really good.
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Old 2019-02-04, 15:01   Link #10
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BWTraveller, you make a good point that Naofumi thinks badly of himself. Self-depreciation does ring a little hollow when he looks likely to remain the world-saving hero surrounded by idiots, but I'll waive one point out of the three (1. Unrepentant (waived), 2. Jesus-kun, 3. Everyone else set up to make him look better). I like well presented anti-heroes as well, they're just far from ideal wish-fulfilment-Light-Novel protagonists, a genre I don't like at all to start off with.


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Originally Posted by TheForsaken View Post
"Slavery is bad" does not equal "every slave owner is a bad guy".
By the way, Slaine is a joke (and so is everything else in that anime).
Every slave owner isn't going to be entirely bad, but it's such a bad quality that they're most unlikely to be called good. Living in a slavery society is no excuse at all (Robert E. Lee was overrated). Someone involved in 'Twelve Years a Slave', possibly the director, said that he thought the 'kindest' owner Northup had was, in a sense, the worst, because he had the moral sensibilities to realise that slavery was evil, but didn't even free his own slaves.

I found unrequited love and inter-planetary racism much more sympathetic, easily relatable burdens on Slaine Troyard than 'Shield-hero-ism' and that overblown false charges business. After years of abuse, Slaine starts his series as a nice guy; Naofumi seems to have gone right downhill after one bad day.

Aldoah.Zero certainly isn't a good anime, but Slaine played the pitiful Byronic hero role far better than Naofumi, by sympathetic and meaningful emotion. Not by saving the day and getting the girl in a world principally designed to glorify him; that is, Naofumi.

Last edited by Ghostfriendly; 2019-02-04 at 15:17.
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Old 2019-02-04, 20:19   Link #11
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BWTraveller, you make a good point that Naofumi thinks badly of himself. Self-depreciation does ring a little hollow when he looks likely to remain the world-saving hero surrounded by idiots, but I'll waive one point out of the three (1. Unrepentant (waived), 2. Jesus-kun, 3. Everyone else set up to make him look better). I like well presented anti-heroes as well, they're just far from ideal wish-fulfilment-Light-Novel protagonists, a genre I don't like at all to start off with.
I'd argue he wasn't meant to be a "Jesus-kun" or anything. Jesus willingly accepted persecution and went to the cross, and He was persecuted out of hatred for things He had legitimately said and preached. Naofumi was persecuted without having done anything at all while he first begged for justice and then screamed in fury at the bastards who'd done this to him. Too much difference there for me to call it a match. As far as everyone else "set up to make him look better", I suppose it's a matter of perspective. Perhaps they were set up to make him look good, or perhaps they were set up just to look bad themselves, to make the society or those they represent look bad. The author has personally made comments about society and corporate culture in comparison to the work, after all.

Quote:
Every slave owner isn't going to be entirely bad, but it's such a bad quality that they're most unlikely to be called good. Living in a slavery society is no excuse at all (Robert E. Lee was overrated). Someone involved in 'Twelve Years a Slave', possibly the director, said that he thought the 'kindest' owner Northup had was, in a sense, the worst, because he had the moral sensibilities to realise that slavery was evil, but didn't even free his own slaves.
I can't entirely argue against this one. Only thing I can say is, as had been said before, it was a matter of absolute necessity for him. He cannot trust anyone, so the only way for him to survive is to rely on a person who's bound by a curse to be unable to break his trust. And whatever you think about the level of his trauma, it's clear how little capacity for trust he has left from the fact that the moment the seal's broken he believes Raphtalia will betray him and tries to keep her away.

Quote:
I found unrequited love and inter-planetary racism much more sympathetic, easily relatable burdens on Slaine Troyard than 'Shield-hero-ism' and that overblown false charges business. After years of abuse, Slaine starts his series as a nice guy; Naofumi seems to have gone right downhill after one bad day.

Aldoah.Zero certainly isn't a good anime, but Slaine played the pitiful Byronic hero role far better than Naofumi, by sympathetic and meaningful emotion. Not by saving the day and getting the girl in a world principally designed to glorify him; that is, Naofumi.
Haven't seen the series so I can't comment (aside from the fact that I generally dislike it when people bring up other series in order to say "so-and-so was better"). But I'd say it's a bit of a stretch to bring Naofumi's situation down to "one bad day". In one instant he was stripped of all respect and honor, and forced to face the fact that he was trapped with no definite escape from a place where all but a couple people have decided that he's the worst kind of scum, that he deserves the worst the world can give and can't be trusted. By the time he was able to meet even two or three people that were willing to treat him with anything besides scorn and derision he'd already fallen far enough that he couldn't see straight.

Additionally, Felix I believe had mentioned before that the curse shield may have had something to do with the extremity and suddenness of his wrath, and frankly a look back at the beginning shows his shield reacting during the first incident as well. It wasn't near as severe, just a momentary glint, but one could argue that perhaps along with the weight of his depressing state he may also be suffering from what could be thought of as a kind of possession.
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Old 2019-02-05, 12:15   Link #12
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Aldoah.Zero certainly isn't a good anime, but Slaine played the pitiful Byronic hero role far better than Naofumi, by sympathetic and meaningful emotion. Not by saving the day and getting the girl in a world principally designed to glorify him; that is, Naofumi.
A world designed to glorify him? Are we watching the same show? The world does nothing but shit on him and treat him unfairly.
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Old 2019-02-06, 15:56   Link #13
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Episode 5

"Let me just get the slave seal back on" ............not even surprised.

Backtracking on character development and abandoning a clear opportunity for deep character development for cheap fetish fanservice is really REALLY stupid. I'll just leave it at that.
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Old 2019-02-06, 16:05   Link #14
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You know, I was kind of hoping the anime was skip over her getting the seal put back on. They've done a lot to improve it in some areas of the story, but...
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Old 2019-02-06, 16:25   Link #15
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I, once again, strongly disagree with the whole "this is fanservice fetish fuel" stuff. Especially with the way she said it, which makes it sound like she just wants it as a symbol. Which makes sense. That slave seal has deep connections to some of the worst and best parts of her life. It's a symbol of the torture she endured, but it's also what allowed her to meet Naofumi, created enough trust in him that she could stay with him, and spurred her forward to break through her fears. It frankly makes some sense that it could have a lot of meaning to her besides just making her property. It's like a person finding out they can have a scar erased but choosing to keep it because of what it means to them.

And how is it "deep character development" for someone to do what everyone expects them to do? I'd say the bizarreness of her wanting it back creates a greater depth. Especially since it's clear just how little meaning it has now.
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Old 2019-02-06, 16:45   Link #16
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I, once again, strongly disagree with the whole "this is fanservice fetish fuel" stuff.
Me (and other people) seeing like that is not in any way related to if you or anyone else is able to or not see it like that.

It's very easy to see how it can be seen like that just as it's very easy for me to see your own view point of how it can be seen as something different.

This entire argument hinges on literally me and others unseeing it.... it's just not possible! I'm sure it's equally impossible for you to unsee it as you do. What's there to even talk about?

At most it can be said that the story could have done better moves to not suggest it so strongly, or done better moves to suggest the other angles strong-er. But need I remind you that by the end of the current episode (episode 5) he got, yet another slave, and it's tropes have been upgraded to naked loli in the span of one episode. You tell me, is the show making any effort whatsoever here for me not to see it like I do? or differentiate from other slave-master isekai or harems.

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And how is it "deep character development" for someone to do what everyone expects them to do? I'd say the bizarreness of her wanting it back creates a greater depth. Especially since it's clear just how little meaning it has now.
EXACTLY. How can we have deep character development with magical bullshit all powerful seal that gurantees "she ONLY does what everyone EXPECTS her to do".

It was said that he turned all the checkboxes off. It doesn't matter. The power to turn them back on at any time is enough. Just as it was a problem before with all the ones that were off.
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Old 2019-02-06, 17:13   Link #17
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Me (and other people) seeing like that is not in any way related to if you or anyone else is able to or not see it like that.

It's very easy to see how it can be seen like that just as it's very easy for me to see your own view point of how it can be seen as something different.

This entire argument hinges on literally me and others unseeing it.... it's just not possible! I'm sure it's equally impossible for you to unsee it as you do. What's there to even talk about?

At most it can be said that the story could have done better moves to not suggest it so strongly, or done better moves to suggest the other angles strong-er. But need I remind you that by the end of the current episode (episode 5) he got, yet another slave, and it's tropes have been upgraded to naked loli in the span of one episode. You tell me, is the show making any effort whatsoever here for me not to see it like I do? or differentiate from other slave-master isekai or harems.
Problem with being "unable to unsee" is that you can lose a lot of great stories by doing so. Seriously I've tried to see it that way and the only connection I can see is the fact that it is a female slave. Pushing messages into stories can hurt what the author is really trying to present. It's easy to make almost anything into unseen messages if one wants to, to look at something and because it has "X and Y" say it must be Z, no matter how little connection there really is. Thing is, Raphtalia from the time she grew up hasn't been a slave in anything but name. She does what she wants to do freely.

Quote:
EXACTLY. How can we have deep character development with magical bullshit all powerful seal that gurantees "she ONLY does what everyone EXPECTS her to do".

It was said that he turned all the checkboxes off. It doesn't matter. The power to turn them back on at any time is enough. Just as it was a problem before with all the ones that were off.
That's kind of twisting things and ignoring my point. She'd be expected to never want that slavery seal put back on, to declare that she'd be his partner without being a slave, etc. But because it's entirely natural for her to say that it doesn't really say much of anything about her. The fact, on the other hand, that she chose of her own volition to do this, to take on a mark that stands as a symbol of her worst and best times, speaks a lot more. And it speaks a ton about her trust and love for Naofumi. In fact, the very matter you mention is WHY it's such a meaningful thing. She's telling him that she trusts him so completely that she feels no fear giving him the key to her heart, the power to hurt her if he wants to. There's a huge difference between "someone has the power to make her do things" and "she just does what the audience expects her to do".
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Old 2019-02-06, 18:57   Link #18
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Originally Posted by BWTraveller View Post
Problem with being "unable to unsee" is that you can lose a lot of great stories by doing so. Seriously I've tried to see it that way and the only connection I can see is the fact that it is a female slave. Pushing messages into stories can hurt what the author is really trying to present. It's easy to make almost anything into unseen messages if one wants to, to look at something and because it has "X and Y" say it must be Z, no matter how little connection there really is. Thing is, Raphtalia from the time she grew up hasn't been a slave in anything but name. She does what she wants to do freely.
I don't really have a problem there. I've mentioned this before, but not finding it agreeable is not really a problem that translates to me finding it unwatchable. This is not a trope I haven't seen before. I can take it for what it is just like anyone else.

This may be just a problem of lifestyle. I'm very resistant to having my opinion pushed by artificial means, such as crowd wisdom or social pressure. It probably won't surprise you to know that I'm one of those people that doesn't use facebook (and I haven't since forever). For me to just change my opinion to align to some so called "more enjoyable" version others have, is not something I do. Make of that what you will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BWTraveller View Post
She's telling him that she trusts him so completely that she feels no fear giving him the key to her heart, the power to hurt her if he wants to. There's a huge difference between "someone has the power to make her do things" and "she just does what the audience expects her to do".
The trope in slave-master isekai is that the slaves become very accepting and "grateful" for being slaves to "the such great master-sama." It's very much in line with the "expected" result for her to continue with the slavery as "symbol of their bond". I'm starting to feel like I'm the victim of irony. Why do I feel it's a problem because I've seen/read more stories like this then you (lol).

Frankly they should have just made it so they draw the slave seal with non-magic paint.

One more small observation,

The very non-dramatic way she's made a slave again is also in line with how most slave-master isekai do it, ie. "slavery is just how day to day life works blah blah"
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Old 2019-02-06, 19:24   Link #19
BWTraveller
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
The trope in slave-master isekai is that the slaves become very accepting and "grateful" for being slaves to "the such great master-sama." It's very much in line with the "expected" result for her to continue with the slavery as "symbol of their bond". I'm starting to feel like I'm the victim of irony. Why do I feel it's a problem because I've seen/read more stories like this then you (lol).

Frankly they should have just made it so they draw the slave seal with non-magic paint.

One more small observation,

The very non-dramatic way she's made a slave again is also in line with how most slave-master isekai do it, ie. "slavery is just how day to day life works blah blah"
First off, I've read and watched plenty of slavery series out there and that's part of the thing: none of them are like this at all. In the slavery fantasy shows I've seen the girls seem to enjoy being subordinate, to want to demonstrate that they are someone's property. Raphtalia acts like a wife of several years who won't take any nonsense from anyone, including him. Therein lies the problem: she's only a slave in name and she knows it, and her decision to return to that state demonstrates her confidence and trust that this is the case.

It reminds me of a book series I read a long time ago. In it there was one country among the antagonistic side where women were considered property but they often had more say than their "owners" about their position or who "owned" them. At the end of the story a woman from that culture tracks down an ugly man and demands that he "buy" her for an absurd amount, after which she hands over a knife collection. Every woman in that culture carried knives around so no one, even their "owners" could do anything they didn't like, and giving these knives to a man is an expression of absolute trust and commitment, of confidence that she would never need to fear him or worry that he'd do something she didn't want. This is kind of the same thing: she's giving him complete power, yes, but she's completely confident he won't use it.

If she were to do what you describe as the "expected" thing for a slave fantasy I'd think she'd express joy at being his slave or a desire to do what he wants or at least a degree of submission toward him, but she honestly comes across very clearly as very much her own person. And that's why these claims of "slave fantasy" don't work for me: in a slave fantasy the woman is not her own person. She's focused on her master and how to please him, but I haven't seen any of that at all. She's a legitimate person who chooses her own path in life. If, as in slave fantasies, she was that worshipful and adoring and eager to please then yes, her decision to have the seal replaced would make sense. But for an independent young woman like she's set up to be this is the most unexpected thing. If an excessively submissive and worshipful girl wanted to get the seal returned it'd be expected and say little about her. If Raphtalia as the independent woman she is chose to go on without the seal it wouldn't have said anything about her really. But for Raphtalia to claim the seal back says quite a bit, especially since it's clear even afterward that she belongs to no one, seal or no seal.
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Old 2019-02-07, 12:33   Link #20
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Personally I agree w/ Felix. There are, in my opinion way too many master - slave relationship series already. By going this route, it's falling into a bit of an expected overall pattern and avoiding the potential for some different form of character development.
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