2012-01-18, 15:23 | Link #27121 | |
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Lamba is the Game Master and Bern by her proxy Erika is the Player (well, Erika is playing and theoretically Bern is helping, when she feels like it, which she usually does not). Battler walks in on them playing a game and Lambda goes back and shows him what happened. It's not clear what this relationship is. However, if Lambda showed him something that flatly contradicted what Bern and Erika experienced when they played the game with Lambda as Game Master, wouldn't somebody notice this? Bern and Erika are arrogant, but they're not stupid.
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2012-01-18, 15:26 | Link #27122 | |
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In any case, I don't understand what you guys are arguing about. I think everyone agrees that EP5 is rather unfair and cheats. The only thing some people seem to be saying is that that was the way it was intended to be, as an illustration of a game master gone wrong. Or at least, I'm saying it, but Ronove's line about how this game lacks love and the absolutely lost expression he had on his face (and Virgilia's) sounded to me like the game was being made into a mockery and a travesty. All you can really say is that on the Ryukishi level, the example of cheating served to hide the Shkannon situation on us for one more episode when he revealed it in EP6. If you really want to say this is, "Insiduous" then go ahead, it's your opinion, but I still don't get what you're arguing against. Or are you trying to say he DIDN'T cheat? |
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2012-01-18, 15:38 | Link #27123 | |
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Note that when Featherine and Bern discuss things at the end of ep7, the concept of what Bern is doing is somewhat confused. There is game board symbolism, yet it doesn't appear in ep7 that Bern is actually operating a game... on the other hand, she might not be Reading either, since Will is there actively participating at times. So really, who knows.
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2012-01-18, 15:43 | Link #27124 | ||
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And what about EP5? Did we read the thoughts of Erika, the detective? Or the thoughts of Bernkastel, the player (aside from the "you will scream in pain Lambda, ahaha.wav")? No we didn't. Instead we got to read the thoughts of (Piece-)Battler once again. Erika didn't appear as Meta till a later stage of the review/flashback, so she at least wasn't present at the review of the parlor scene. We have No idea how they reacted when it was shown the first time and also whether Meta-Erika was present or not. But how about this: "(Piece-)Erika could "re-investigate" the parlor scene anytime, if she wanted to, because of her Photographic memory. However her photographic memory does not "think for her". If she doesn't even think about ShKanon, then she, of course, cannot confirm that. So she would realize the mistake of that scene in the first moment, where she seriously considers ShKanon." That never happened though. But that probably ends with EP5 so she cannot start the investigation again in EP6 (for Battler's closed room etc.) because her piece version of that world already ceased to exist and she can only rely on the information she gathered at that time. But to specify this further we would have to know more about the mechanics between Piece and Player. |
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2012-01-18, 15:46 | Link #27125 | ||
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Not only that, but the fact that it was Beatrice who reached him in both instances, seems like it could imply that Ikuko is Yasu. But I know that this doesn't necessarily confirm the Ikuko=Yasu theory in any way, shape, or form. I'm just saying. The strange thing is that it's implied that BATTLER tried to put himself in Yasu's shoes on purpose. After all, there was some line like this: (this is just how I remember it, not the exact words) "I know how you suffered, waiting for me all that time. So now, I'll try waiting for you." And the biggest evidence that he intended it is that he should have been able to solve this logic error easily. After all, by that point, he DEFINITELY knew about the "ShKannon" thing. And he's not an idiot, so he should have been able to understand that only the doors were checked for duct tape. ...Does this mean that he intended to get stuck in the logic error or with a brain injury? I have no idea. As far as the brain injury in particular goes, I kind of doubt it. Oh, right. There's yet another parallel with that logic error. Remember, Kinzo shut himself away in his study, trying to revive Beatrice. Honestly, both Battler and Yasu get compared to Kinzo all the time. It's like they're both miniature Kinzos. Quote:
However, no GM would do something as stupid as putting an elephant next to the detective's Piece when the detective clearly doesn't see an elephant there, for example. So that's why, given that the detective's Piece was present in the parlor, it would make no sense for Lambda to put an elephant there. But she certainly didn't do anything that ridiculous. All she did was say that "both Shannon and Kanon are there, on opposite sides of Erika" which Erika, in one way or another, was apparently unable to disprove. Either her focus on Natsuhi allowed a changing!Yasu trick to be used, or Kanon had his own body. |
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2012-01-18, 15:56 | Link #27126 | |
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If we use the lack of a reader in EP8 as an example, I was thinking that Bern's game ended up turning into a plain old logic puzzle, with even less literary development or value than some very plainly written detective novels. *cough* 8) So maybe the Reader metaphor on the meta-level implies some kind of care into crafting a story from a puzzle? This doesn't fit in with the idea that in EP6, Featherine was using Ange as a reader to evaluate her manuscript as you said, nor EP7's reading by Bern. To put it into terms at the Author level, EP6's Reader appears more as an Editor, whereas EP8's lack of a Reader appears more as an example of lack of writing to begin with. I don't have a clue what EP7's Reader, if there were any, did at all. (Maybe that one was Eva-B, rather than Bern.) |
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2012-01-18, 16:10 | Link #27127 | |
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Spoiler for EP5:
You could certainly say that that's something totally different, though, and that while Piece!Battler doesn't have that privilege, he's still a detective, and the Player's Piece, which makes his perspective perfectly objective. ^Which is what I currently believe. |
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2012-01-18, 16:11 | Link #27128 | |
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Wait a second... this makes sense now. The whole Genius Battler Theory implied that he put himself into a precarious situation so that Moetrice could 'evolve' and regain her previous (Trollish) nature. And that turning point was when she figured out Shkannon for herself, as Battler did already. He purposely didn't tell her and bet it all on a miracle, another common theme in the story. Well, this change in Moetrice mirrors the exact same situation Yasu went through, didn't it? Yasu discovered that she was disabled and became fully aware; so did Moetrice. The difference being this time Moetrice had Battler by her side and Yasu did not. (And that may have made all the difference between feeling loved and feeling abandoned.) I'm going to put that post into my signature, it seems to be providing a lot of answers and insights on Yasu's behavior... if someone can think of a catchy name for the theory, please. 8) It still disturbs me when I see Moetrice call Battler "Father" when I realize this is supposed to be Beatrice-2 and Kinzo's parallel. Only with less raping. 8) Still incest though, if you think about it.... |
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2012-01-18, 16:11 | Link #27129 | ||
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2012-01-18, 16:17 | Link #27130 | ||||
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2012-01-18, 16:30 | Link #27131 | |
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So, two examples of where Readers are supposed to change facts into literature, and one where the Reader checked up on already written prose. |
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2012-01-18, 16:37 | Link #27132 |
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Concerning all the talk above about how Erika didn't notice the thing about Shannon and Kanon during her stay in Rokenjima...I read a lot of it, but I'm too lazy to quote all points I want to comment on, though I'll say, people are just overthinking into this with all the talks about Meta-Erika, Piece-Erika and so on....Clearly, it was just avoided by the author because it would be too much of a giveaway if Erika started getting into the innermost depths of the truth just from the fifth game. To justify this, in the fifth game she was mostly concerned about framing Natsuhi, so I guess actually solving anything wasn't in her priorities.
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2012-01-18, 16:40 | Link #27133 | ||||
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At this point... I kind of have to agree with the "genius Battler" theory. Because, didn't Featherine herself say it? That Chick!Beato is like a blank slate. She's what Beatrice originally was. But if she were to experience the same kind of life, she would "revive." So, Chick!Beato is there, trying her very best to get him out of that logic error. She wants desperately to be reunited with him, to have her future with him, and to be of use to him. ...Wait, that sounds familiar? And I'm absolutely certain that BATTLER said something to this effect in EP6 to Chick!Beato when she asked him a question (I don't remember what the question was though): "I won't tell you. Because the old you would have known it, and I'm hoping you can remember it on your own. So let me believe for just a little longer..." Quote:
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2012-01-18, 16:54 | Link #27135 | ||
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On top of that, Readers as a concept didn't even exist in EP5. What Battler is saying here is that since there are multiple perspectives in the story, and that only one of those perspectives is reliable, we have a narrative that contradicts objective observation, something present in most all other mystery stories regardless of any such "reader".
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2012-01-18, 17:02 | Link #27136 | |
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I'm tempted to think this is what he meant by Without Love It Cannot Be Seen. If you don't gain an understanding of Yasu, you'd just conclude that she's crazy or psycho and nothing would make sense. But if you understood her inability to express her rage except only through Beatrice, because she has this particular problem, then it makes sense. Not that her actions are right, but that you understand the mentality of screaming something like, "Stop it or else I'll shoot!" That may just be me being conceited though, I'm not 100% sure on that Love phrase. 8) She is his Aunt *and* Cousin, as they sometimes say in the stereotypical Deep South. Happy Fun Cyclic Family Tree time here... 8) |
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2012-01-18, 17:06 | Link #27137 |
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There is still the thing with EP6's "BATTLER could have said exactly who was present in the cousin's room, but Erika wanted him to say "everyone else" ".
And we all know that he couldn't. So it is likely that ANGE was the "reader" for this scene. Well although that is no guarantee of course. It is still possible that it is "part of the story". But i think in the earlier EPs the narrator of the META scenes was never lying or mistaken. Correct me if i am wrong. |
2012-01-18, 17:24 | Link #27139 | |
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As prove: Battler saw Kinzo at the end of EP2. Kinzo is dead at the starting time of all games. Ok... if i have to answer it myself i have 2 theories about this: 1. He was drunk and hallucinating. 2. He died by alcohol-poisoning and everything he saw at the end was META. But both somehow seem strange... |
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