Mobile Suit Gundam 00 - Episode 19 Discussion / Poll

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by Wesley84

Tieria did in so many words. Some of the members may be squeamish about some of the consenquences of their actions, but overall no one seems concerned if even individual missions are right or wrong, nevermind their overall "mission". They may sometimes have the high ground de facto, but it's supposed to be clear that they're not interested in PR or being "the good guys".

Did you entirely miss the point where people disagree with him? Such as Lockon? Some in CB care about it, some don't. Tieria and Mei Ling fall into one categorie, Lockon falls into another. Setsuna's doesn't care as long as it doesn't go against his ideal of a gundam, and Allelujah and Sumeragi prefer to take the moral road when possible. CB isn't a monolithic group of yes-men with the same opinion, especially if you're judging by Tieria.

[Mister Mister]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

You're correct. Although that sort of begs the question of why nuclear power and nuclear weapons hadn't been mentioned until they talked about that facility.

from what I understand, Japanese culture is not very supportive of the idea of nuclear technology, and I think i don't need to say why.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Mister Mister

from what I understand, Japanese culture is not very supportive of the idea of nuclear technology, and I think i don't need to say why.

That is completely false. Japan is powered by massive amount of nuclear powerplants, because they lack the natural resources to use anything else. Culturally the Japanese made the distinction between nuclear power and nuclear weapons. Also note that Astroboy was nuclear-powered.

As a side note, due to widespread use of nuclear power, Japan has a relatively large quantity of plutonium as a by-product. It is a common joke that if they wanted to, the Japanese can become a nuclear power in one week.

(From an old report in 2005, they had 29 tonnes of fissionable plutonium; That's enough to make more than a thousand nuclear warheads. The Japanese are not afraid of technology.)

[Marsala]

Also, there were multiple references to nukes and several actual uses of them in UC Gundam. The absence of nukes in Gundam 00 is peculiar, since Gundam 00's world is probably the closest to contemporary Earth (I won't say "most realistic") of any of the series.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Marsala

Also, there were multiple references to nukes and several actual uses of them in UC Gundam. The absence of nukes in Gundam 00 is peculiar, since Gundam 00's world is probably the closest to contemporary Earth (I won't say "most realistic") of any of the series.

That's simple to explain. Nuclear weapons are for offensive rather than defensive purposes. So you can't use it when Gundams are attacking your territory. Further, the REAL use of a nuke is against CB infrastructure and bases, which so far the world powers were unable to find.

The two times when usage of nukes were applicable was during the HRL attack against the ship, and during the desert bombardment. But in both cases they were trying to capture rather than destroy.

Another point is that nuclear weapons could be used more frequently when fighting in Space. But due to a lack of Space warfare in 00 in comparision to other Gundam series, the opportunity just isn't there.

Note that thanks to the Thrones' hostile actions and the gift of GN-X, nukes would soon be a viable choice. The world powers would no longer need the Gundams whole.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Wesley84

Tieria did in so many words.

Can you write out his quote?

Originally Posted by Wesley84

Some of the members may be squeamish about some of the consenquences of their actions, but overall no one seems concerned if even individual missions are right or wrong, nevermind their overall "mission".

The crew of Ptolemaios is so convinced of the righteousness of their cause that the consequences of their actions barely merit any examination. This only makes sense since the only people who would join an organization like Celestial Being are likely to be fanatics to begin with.

Originally Posted by Wesley84

They may sometimes have the high ground de facto, but it's supposed to be clear that they're not interested in PR or being "the good guys".

These are two slightly different things. While the Ptolemaios crew isn't too concerned about public relations aside for how it impacts Veda's overall plan (whatever that may be), this doesn't preclude them from thinking of themselves as the "good guys".

Originally Posted by Icehawk

I figure its because there hasnt been any case where nuclear weapons were even necessary to be used. The only operation I could think of that might have merited nukes was the big one seen in ep 15 but even then, the goal was to overwhelm and capture the gundams not destroy them, with the lack of precision targeting due to GN particle interference pinpoint tactical nuclear strikes wouldnt really be possible or wise if there goal is simply to contain and capture.

I'm referring more to how any talk of weapons controls or demilitarization automatically have to refer to nuclear weapons, and how nuclear power is just about the first thing that comes to mind whenever anything that touches on Peak Oil scenarios is brought up. Whether nuclear weapons are used or not is of less relevance on this particular point.

[LoweGear]

Originally Posted by Paranoia833

But yeah the world is ludicrously under militarised and as THAT animeblog pointed out it seems artillery no longer exists in the 00 world in any shape or form. Fun times.

This battery of Tieren Long-Range Shooting Types would like to have a word with you...

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Lowe you forgot those Union Ground units as well.

[kyoulover]

Overall....i really like this ep

to see how the gundam meister really close to each other really great ^^

and also...to see the romance story of saji and louise also really touching ^^;;

[Paranoia833]

Point conceded. Guess I jumped the gun there.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Their very first attack was at the AEU elevator, and the third attack was in HRL territory.

Yeah I remembered that one about half an hour after I posted. Teach me to rattle off the first thing that comes to mind after going a night without sleep. That said given that as far as I know we still only get to see the reaction of the Union public that doesn't really invalidate what 'good press' we see them getting. Judging from the massive amount of resources Sergei presumably got to manufacture his massive satellite array we can probably assume general opinion on CB is considerably more negative in the HRL. (unless the HRL is extremely centralised and if that's the case the media is probably well under the thumb of the government anyway)

[Morgun]

Originally Posted by The Small One

About the nukes issue:
This series is playing 300 years in the future... maybe there ARE no nukes anymore, because the people were actually wise enough to banish them.
(Maybe they sent all of their nukes to Jupiter about 120 years ago )

Of course! I forgot all about that. The show explained it happened in 2232 AD, right after the second coming of Jesus.

[Wesley84]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Can you write out his quote?

I cannot. I no longer have the episode. I believe it was Tieria criticising Lockon for being so angry about the terrorists attacks, when it was a predictable consenquence of their actions. Lockon asked him what was wrong with hating terrorists, Tieria then explained their mission took precedence over anything else, and that as far as the world was concerned, they were terrorists. Or at least as best I can remember.

The crew of Ptolemaios is so convinced of the righteousness of their cause that the consequences of their actions barely merit any examination. This only makes sense since the only people who would join an organization like Celestial Being are likely to be fanatics to begin with.

I'm not so sure they're convinced as not questioning a good thing. Certainly their jobs are beneficial to them personally. I can't say if it's been made clear one way or another whether it's a belief in their cause or that they simply don't care one way or another. Undercharacterization, and since they literally have only ever had oppurtunities to preach to the choir, we simply don't know.

More 4th wall breaking please.

These are two slightly different things. While the Ptolemaios crew isn't too concerned about public relations aside for how it impacts Veda's overall plan (whatever that may be), this doesn't preclude them from thinking of themselves as the "good guys".

I suppose you're right.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Wesley84

I'm not so sure they're convinced as not questioning a good thing. Certainly their jobs are beneficial to them personally. I can't say if it's been made clear one way or another whether it's a belief in their cause or that they simply don't care one way or another. Undercharacterization, and since they literally have only ever had oppurtunities to preach to the choir, we simply don't know.

More 4th wall breaking please.

Yes, and maybe they can throw a bunch of non sequiturs in while they're at it.

[Wesley84]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin_Sama

Yes, and maybe they can throw a bunch of non sequiturs in while they're at it.

Whatever works.

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

The development cost of a weapons system isn't always the same relative to the unit cost. Using my previous example, the F-22's development was much more costly than that of the F-15, but new models of each fighter are fairly close in price.

True but development cost is still a factor when considering the cost of a unit. In the F-22 example, by the time all 184 fighters are purchased by the air force, a further $34 billion would have been spent on the procurement for a total program cost of $62 billion or $339 million per aircraft with the incremental cost for additional units to be $138 million.

Originally Posted by Wesley84

I cannot. I no longer have the episode. I believe it was Tieria criticising Lockon for being so angry about the terrorists attacks, when it was a predictable consenquence of their actions. Lockon asked him what was wrong with hating terrorists, Tieria then explained their mission took precedence over anything else, and that as far as the world was concerned, they were terrorists. Or at least as best I can remember.

Yes Tieria stated that such reaction was in the scope of Veda's plan, however I thought it was pretty obvious that the other meisters did not particularly share his disregard for civillian casualties.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Paranoia833

(unless the HRL is extremely centralised and if that's the case the media is probably well under the thumb of the government anyway)

The HRL is a quasi-Communist state.

Originally Posted by Wesley84

I'm not so sure they're convinced as not questioning a good thing. Certainly their jobs are beneficial to them personally.

I don't know about that. They don't stand to gain a whole lot from being in Celestial Being unless they were true believers in the cause. I'm not sure what kind of other benefit you think they can derive from doing so, especially in view of the associated danger.

Originally Posted by demon_god04

True but development cost is still a factor when considering the cost of a unit. In the F-22 example, by the time all 184 fighters are purchased by the air force, a further $34 billion would have been spent on the procurement for a total program cost of $62 billion or $339 million per aircraft with the incremental cost for additional units to be $138 million.

While the program cost includes the development costs, the same shouldn't be applied to the per unit cost. After all, it's a cost that's already expended, regardless of how many units are purchased. For the latter, it's usually better to refer to the flyaway cost since that's the price to consider between buying machine A or machine B.

[Wesley84]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I don't know about that. They don't stand to gain a whole lot from being in Celestial Being unless they were true believers in the cause. I'm not sure what kind of other benefit you think they can derive from doing so, especially in view of the associated danger.

Beach-houses, designer clothing, money, job-satisfaction, not having to work too hard or all that often. And it's not like anyone except the Meisters are in any real danger, unless someone drops a hint to the world governments. It's a cooshy job that doesn't have any management oversight, great job security, even though you're probably in for life.

Not to mention all your coworkers are absolutely gorgeous, and probably unable to see people outside work. Talk about fish-in-a-barrel.