2009-07-08, 08:32
|
Link #1 |
|
Protecting the Throne
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Asia Tour
Age: 32
 |
Ero-game Content Restrictions Moral Issues Tangent
I have a question and I'm really curious. And no, this is not trolling at all. I do believe it is in relation to the topic.
How do you guys think traumatized rape victims should deal with this? Knowing that there are rapeplay games out there where people like to rape fictional virtual characters? I mean, yes, it is fiction. Yes, no one in real life actually gets hurt. But the idea of forced violent sexual assault is still there. The image is projected and depicted there with detail. I'm 99% sure rape victims will react. So take for example a rape victim tells you how he/she was brutally and mercilessly raped, how would you guys react? Or rather what would you guys tell him/her if he/she was very strongly for the ban? I don't think freedom of individuals would do good enough reason for them. So what else would you guys say? Mod Edit: This post and the resulting discussion was moved to its own thread, but will have a limited thread life of about 1 day. So if you really must weigh in, do it quickly, and then the thread will be closed before we get into another vicious loop.
__________________
Last edited by relentlessflame; 2009-07-09 at 11:46. Reason: split into thread |
|
|
2009-07-08, 10:57
|
Link #2 | ||
|
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
|
Quote:
Quote:
If she is very strongly for the ban, then her ideology and morals are very much like that rapist. She believes her own desires and preferences should intrude on other people's freedoms. I suppose that's not the answer you wanted to hear. But there it is. What do you say? |
||
|
|
|
2009-07-08, 12:28
|
Link #3 |
 Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 41
|
Yes, that's another dead-end topic that's really beyond the scope of this thread. You could just as easily have asked how victims of gun violence should feel about a game that glorifies guns. Or, how would victims of racial prejudice should react to a game that perpetuates racial stereotypes. Or, how would believers of certain religions should take a game where their religion is portrayed in a stereotypically-negative light. And so on and so on ad nauseum. From my point of view, rape is a horrible, inexcusable crime that deserves extreme criminal punishment. But, banning rape games is not going to make the pain of that horrendous personal experience go away, and there's no reason to believe that it's going to save any one else from going through the same fate. (Is there any demonstratable connection or correlation between people who play sexually-explicit videogames and those who commit sex crimes?) So in regards to our proposed offended victim, I would suggest, at the very least, that we try to find ways to actually prevent others from being hurt in the same way. Games are just being used here as a scapegoat to make up for that society's perceived failure at dealing with sexual deviancy while not actually doing anything to truly address that failure. It's sort of "criminalize the masses, while the criminals go free".
Last edited by relentlessflame; 2009-07-08 at 12:54. Reason: clarification |
|
|
|
2009-07-08, 20:58
|
Link #4 |
|
Protecting the Throne
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Asia Tour
Age: 32
|
Again, I have no issue whatsoever with Japanese erotic games. It's only the rape genre that has to be given more prior concern.
@arkhangelsk First of all, it'd be appreciated if you change your tone of talking. I'm pretty sure you can prove your point and answer questions without pointing out flaws ( in your POV) of others which have no relation to the topic. You're just adding unnecessary conflict which just seems rude. @relentlessflame In that case, I request if possible that the thread name be changed or that any negative opinions be allowed to be discussed in this thread. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The thing about taking away one's rights has many extremes. In other words, there are cases where the right or the pleasure of an invidividual can be stripped away from him and he/she really can't live with it like water or food or having a home to live in. It's a basic necessity. In other much more extreme lower levels, the pleasure or luxury can be taken away from an individual but he/she will still live. He/she can still get over it. Is it much more easier for a rape victim to get over being raped than someone who's rape games are taken away from him/her? Censorship is wrong in a way that it abuses power and as mentioned takes the rights of an invidividual away. Censorship is a way of preventing or stopping people from being able to live a part of their life the way they want it. But so does discipline. In this way, censoring and not censoring are both wrong but which is really more wrong? Again that's only my opinion. Playing rape games doesn't justify that rape is right or that it's ok to do. That I agree with you people but can only solely apply on mature people who exhibit control. Growing children have different ways of thinking. External environment contributes to that. Rape games themselves don't justify rape but it glorifies it. If you were to tell a rape victim who is for the ban that he/she is applying her own idealogies and morals just like the rapist by invading other people's freedom, you fail to take into consideration the different levels and extremes of violation or "invasion." The idea of rape is very dangerous. Guns and knives can still be justifed in cases of self defense. You don't rape someone for self defense. If you can just say that censorship is only applied because of the people who are disgusted at rape, you are wrong since in general rape is already considered as something that degrades invidividuals. Yes, it is fiction, yes no one in real life gets hurt but what do rape games or rather what are we really promoting?
__________________
|
|
|
|
2009-07-08, 21:20
|
Link #5 | |||||
|
Not an expert on things
Join Date: Jun 2007
|
Quote:
Quote:
Also, I don't see how your argument leads to "censoring and censoring are both wrong"; can you clarify? Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Also, general rape is considered something that 'degrades individuals' because the rapist violates the raped. We sympathize with the emotions of the raped, because those emotions are being violated. But in the case of these games, there are no emotions to sympathize with, since no one is actually being raped. I should stop arguing with this. No offense to you personally, since it isn't your fault, but I feel like I've repeated the same thing multiple times. I have a feeling this is why relentlessflame doesn't want this to become an argument on the morality of rape games and such, because the arguments tend to repeat.... |
|||||
|
|
|
2009-07-08, 21:26
|
Link #6 | |
|
Administrator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 41
|
Quote:
To be clear, it's not because I either agree or disagree with you, it's because those debates are just death spirals. As it says in the Rule, they "start out interesting and sensible but degrade rapidly", as we've already seen just recently. Last edited by relentlessflame; 2009-07-08 at 21:39. |
|
|
|
|
2009-07-08, 21:57
|
Link #7 | |
|
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
|
Quote:
And it should be banned because it 'degrades individuals'? Since when was that illegal? Ban all news outlets and TV shows that show a person at less than their prime? Has Jerry Springer been arrested yet? Has the fox news cast been arrested yet for opening their mouths? Has everyone who's caught G. W. Bush during one of his moments on camera been arrested? |
|
|
|
|
2009-07-08, 22:43
|
Link #9 |
|
Pretentious moe scholar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Age: 37
|
... You know, I want to follow thread rules, but I'm starting to get a little tired of not wading into the fray on this one.
Actually, scratch that. I'm getting a lot tired of not wading into the fray on this one. |
|
|
|
2009-07-08, 23:39
|
Link #10 | |
|
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2009
|
Quote:
|
|
|
|
|
2009-07-08, 23:41
|
Link #11 | |||
|
"with you, happiness"
Join Date: Jan 2007
|
Quote:
Quote:
 If you add content-restrictions, should they undo the age-restriction? Quote:
In bold: People will come up with something like, story, plot, art (No offense intended), etc. But at some point it all come out to be a turn on. I don't think anyone can said this with a straight face in real life, but there you go. Note : come up != made up. I believe that justification exists in each and every eyes of the beholder. This goes to both rape and violence (Gun/Knives in your example). At the end it saddened me that by the end of this conflict, one side will take the hurt. At this point, I don't see any chance for a mutual win-win result.
__________________
|
|||
|
|
|
2009-07-09, 00:05
|
Link #12 | |
|
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Seattle WA
Age: 47
|
Quote:
 C'mon; You know you want throw in your two cents. |
|
|
|
|
2009-07-09, 00:26
|
Link #13 |
|
NO ESCAPE FROM NYAAA
 Artist
Join Date: Jan 2004
|
There are many an h-anime where the girls get totally raped (and not getting raped at first and then loves it in the end kind of situation) and sometimes I don't like it. Other times I do find it erotic. It depends on the specific anime or game. Sometimes I cannot but help cheer on a rape because of the character it happens to.
But I NEVER forget that I'm watching an H-ANIME and that it has no relation to my real life. I can separate my eroge and h-anime enjoyment from real life because I KNOW AND UNDERSTAND BETTER. Because whether through my upbringing or just the way I am, I know that rape is not good in real life. Not only is it morally unacceptable in pretty much all industrialized societies, but it is beneath me. It is merely a HOBBY, and just entertainment or purely sexual in enjoyment. If you want to bang a real girl, do it properly through mutual love. If you want it just to feel the control over someone helpless, then there are serious issues with you that have nothing to do with eroge or h-anime; or you're just that pathetic.The bottom line is that if you raise a human bring properly and educate him or her well about life and have him or her UNDERSTAND, then no amount of fictional violence or sexual violence can budge that person into acting it all out in real life. None of you guys know me in real life, but I am one of the chillest human beings in existence. Of course, the sad truth is that not everyone gets a good upbringing, and even worse some people are simply just broken in the head. That's why we have laws and all that, but the power of law should be directed at the right targets to solve a certain problem, not at the most apparent scapegoats.
__________________
|
|
|
|
2009-07-09, 06:36
|
Link #15 | |
|
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
|
Quote:
|
|
|
|
|
2009-07-09, 23:28
|
Link #17 |
|
A Priori Impossibility
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: California
Age: 33
|
To be honest, I'm weary of jumping into a discussion like this again, so I'll just say something that I honestly believe. I'm not going to argue against anyone that's posted in the thread, so decide for yourself whether I speak gobbledy-goop or even begin to make any sense at all.
I think that rape simulation games are just one fantastical (not fantastic, but the adjective form of fantasy) method of indulging one's own darker fantasies or desires. Whether or not this darker side of humanity exists may be up for debate for some people, but I personally do believe in it. There have been tales of incest, murder, rape, domination, and humiliation since humans first began recording epic legends and stories regarding the world, their gods, and the human soul. Bottom line is, there has always been a presence of these elements throughout human thought, something that lurks in the shadowed corners of our individual minds and tickles the fancy of what we constitute as our everyday, normal selves. No matter if these tales were once created for purposes of vilification or glorification, I think it would be far too sad if we failed to recognize how these unwanted aspects of society take shape today. While I'm sure there are those who can point out the flaws of ancient societies, and that modern society has, in fact, progressed further in its ability to uphold true morality, I see history differently. To me, there are few things that humanity has improved. With every "problem" we solve, we create a new slew of issues, most of which have the same underlying cause that can be seen in another event touched by the hand of men and women. We are repeating ourselves in an endless cycle, and to try and eliminate an integral part to our understanding of right and wrong means we'll fail to acknowledge something critical to our very history as a species. We would be making a fatal mistake if we assumed that suppressing the desire for these games will merely benefit society at the simple loss of an abstract ideal like freedom. I think it goes beyond that. Denying people an outlet for basic fantasies will lead to a further suppression of what is already being held in check by the rational mind. Let me give you an example. Behavioral conditioning very rarely is capable of eliminating problematic behavior simply by keeping the very behavior repressed. Often times, a conditioned suppression comes hand in hand with the introduction of a secondary, alternative reinforcement mechanism designed to instill healthier, better behavior. Otherwise, the problematic behavior will relapse when the conditioned stimulus itself is no longer being applied. The person who cuts their soda addiction becomes an avid tea drinker. A smoker who quits smoking later chews entire bags of sun flowers seeds (I think I got that from a book... "Holes" was it?) My overall point is that when you take away this outlet for sexual frustration (or even general stress released in a sexual way), you're creating a vacuum that may find a drastic change in behavior that could mean more crime, or an even worse alternative state. And I doubt most of the people who enjoy rape simulation games are going to begin indulging themselves in sports, either. Censorship is not the way to go if we're trying to prevent something from happening. It is through education (the growth of the rational mind), and not denying the existence of such morally ambiguous material, that we can come to better our understanding of morality and ethics. [Edit] This justification against censorship is not* (Whoops, left this word out earlier.) a justification for glorifying rape. In fact, real rapists are the scum of the earth (excuse the harsh language). I also believe in the death penalty (yay for more polarized moral issues), and I absolutely hate the idea that my tax dollars go to people who are sent to jail for raping countless people out on the streets. A rape victim may feel utter hatred and disgust at the existence of such games, but I think it would be more dangerous to take that as a reason for banning those very games. It is a reason to institute harsher laws against rape in the real world, not a cause for policing thought. They may not agree with me, but it's still my point of view. Last edited by Kylaran; 2009-07-10 at 01:02. Reason: I realized I never answered your question, Flora. |
|
|
|
2009-07-10, 02:01
|
Link #18 |
|
Pretentious moe scholar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Age: 37
|
I’m going to key point summarize mine… I tired writing it normally and it was just a wall of text mess.
I think: -That even if one accepts that we should censor harmful things, the pro-censorship side of the debate must prove beyond any reasonable doubt that the harm prevented will be greater than the harm caused. -Rape porn can be cathartic for people. -Therefore, there is reasonable doubt as to whether rape games cause more harm than good. Furthermore, I’m not sure how you’d prove this beyond a reasonable doubt. -I actually do think that the idea that rape porn is harmful makes “intuitive” logical sense, but that this doesn’t mean this opinion is right, and in light of statistics, it very well may not be. I don’t think there’s enough evidence to say either way. -I consider people’s kinks a part of their sexual orientation, something that should not be infringed upon without an extremely strong reason. -I see porn as a valid way of reaching sexual fulfillment, and therefore a right not to be infringed upon without an extremely wrong reason. -I’m pretty darn sure that people are good at separating fantasy and reality, and therefore that a person’s interest in rape fantasy is not a reliable indicator of whether they are dangerous (this came up in a previous thread on this). And my experience with people I know are into such fantasy bares this out. -I believe that visual novel players as a whole are very concerned with art and narrative – which do, after all, have a huge impact on the stories erotic appeal. Therefore, rape game players are probably concerned with artistic elements. -I believe that something featuring rape can still be art. After all, tentacles have appeared in Japanese woodblock paintings since at least 1820, and surely those are art. (Look up the Dream of the Fisherman's Wife if you don't believe me... but be warned it will obviously be NSFW) -I believe that if I were to go looking at visual novels featuring rape porn, I would be able to point out artistic elements in them. -The fact that rape porn offends some people is a reason to ensure that access controls are in place so that only those interested will see it. -I do not believe the fact people may be offended by something can ever justify a ban – only proof beyond a reasonable doubt of harm. -The fact that rape victims may be offended does not influence my opinion of whether rape porn should be banned. I also actually have had people relate stories of sexual assault and rape to me. In one case, I got the impression they’d prefer to see a ban, in another case, I got the impression they actually liked bdsm – possibly as a form of catharsis. I don’t know, I’m not a psychologist. -I would, however, not push the issue with a rape victim because I feel they actually do have a reason to dislike rape porn, even if I disagree that there should be a ban. To me, it’s just not worth reopening their wounds. Besides, logic oriented arguments like mine will likely do little to a position based heavily on an emotional experience. (I have to admit that I don’t like the way that this post makes me sound like I actually like rape porn or something. I actually don’t and have to admit that I find it a little bit squicky to be defending it. I just believe people should be allowed to see and create it.) |
|
|
|
2009-07-10, 16:06
|
Link #19 | |
|
Bishoujo Game Enthusiast
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Belgium
Age: 38
|
Quote:
First, the death penalty does nothing to prevent crime. Statistics of states that have and don't have the death penalty prove it. Second, innocent people may, and have, lost their lives thanks to this. Third, taking someone's life because they committed a horrible crime does not solve anything, and I don't believe anyone has the right to take someone else's life. Fourth, you might as well argue that the police is wasting your tax dollars, as they also have the function of keeping people in line, and wouldn't be necessary if everyone behaved nicely. Or how about money being wasted on people in psychiatric institutions? Those people are 'sick' as well. You know what another term for "death penalty" is? It's "legalised murder".
__________________
|
|
|
|
|
2009-07-10, 21:06
|
Link #20 | ||||||||
|
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
1) One can only start to try to "get over" something, be it rape, earthquake, or whatever, after the disaster ends. In that sense, by definition it is actually the rape victim that has a chance to get over her tragedy. Simultaneously, the victim of censorship might be hurt less on a visceral level, but he can only start to recover if the government repeals its ban. 2) Trying to compare the rape experience to merely the act of censorship is unfair. The reverse appropriate analogy would be a rape experience where the victim doesn't put up much of a physical or mental fight and lets her virginity be taken. The stereotypical rape experience is better compared to a person that stood for his rights (both freedom of speech and his property rights) under the censorship and got fined or imprisoned for it, complete with the ordeals of court ... etc. Censorship on the governmental level isn't just a matter of taking things away, but for punishing people who try to exercise something that is actually their right. In a utilitarian equation, that ALSO has to be factored in. Quote:
Quote:
For the children, please compare to how a parent supporting censorship "glorifies" and justifies in the child's mind the rightfulness of taking away other people's rights. While there is plenty of counterpressure against rape in the average society and upbringing, there's almost none against supporting censorship. Quote:
Also ... do consider what you are really doing when requesting governmental censorship. You are saying not only it is right to take a freedom away, but also to lock them behind bars. Please compare the values. Quote:
Another way one can put it is that pro-censorship people are similar to a rapist who tries to get the government to not only legalize rape, but compel the police to assist in such endeavors... And these are the role models for our kids... and very few will even tell them it is wrong, and with not a fraction of the vigor they will for rape... hmm ... which is the big threat here... Quote:
|
||||||||
|
|
 |
|
|
