noitaminA anime block discussion

[Guardian Enzo]

I would love to hear your explanation for why House of Five Leaves and Shiki bombed, as both series primarily focus on adults. Is it a question of quality - you simply don't hold them in the same high regard some of us do? Certainly tastes do vary - but I think the critical consensus is that both shows were excellent. If not quality, why? It can't be because there are too many kids.

Originally Posted by cyth

Why do you think garbage like Angel Beats!, K-ON! and OreImo sells? It's relatable to the yet undeveloped minds of the middleschool demographic.

Are we really talking about the middle school demographic with NoitaminA, even when it was drawing higher ratings? I hardly think so. I think there's an assumption that the target NoitaminA viewer is more capable of enjoying a series about people different from them than a middle schooler.

I don't agree with you about Oreimo, BTW, but that's a topic for another thread...

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

So what's the lesson? Well, it's pretty clear that quality isn't a selling point on it's own. I'd also argue that the age of the characters doesn't ultimately matter so much either - it's the presence (or absence) of the "magic buttons" that matter. If you don't have at least one of them - moe, incest, etc. - you're not going to draw mass audiences and sell blu-rays. I think the choice the NoitaminA producers (and the money behind them) have is very simple - continue to produce low-rated series of high quality and hope for the occasional breakthrough hit, or give up and treat the block like any other hour of commercial anime.

If the problem with the current shows is that they lack a "magic button", then we can surmise tha older Noitamina works did push some "magic buttons". But aside from the fact that I feel that a few shows like Eden of the East and Tatami Galaxy have a certain "intelligent and intellectual" appeal that seems like it would play well to the kind of people who made shows like Ghost in the Shell SAC successful, I'd be hard pressed to identify which buttons were pushed.

Originally Posted by cyth

Why do you think garbage like Angel Beats!, K-ON! and OreImo sells? It's relatable to the yet undeveloped minds of the middleschool demographic.

The hallmark of these shows' success is selling 25-40K DVD/blurays at $60 per volume. I have a bit - actually, a lot - of trouble believing that any sizable portion of those sales went to middle schoolers.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

The hallmark of these shows' success is selling 25-40K DVD/blurays at $60 per volume. I have a bit - actually, a lot - of trouble believing that any sizable portion of those sales went to middle schoolers.

Maybe they want to middle-aged male otaku who like to look at middle schoolers?

See? Empathy!

[cyth]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

Are we really talking about the middle school demographic with NoitaminA

No.

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

The hallmark of these shows' success is selling 25-40K DVD/blurays at $60 per volume. I have a bit - actually, a lot - of trouble believing that any sizable portion of those sales went to middle schoolers.

Well I could just as easily have mentioned involvement of manchildren, but I think the bulk of K-ON!'s success lies in selling life goods. Also, middle/highschool students in Japan aren't so poor that they couldn't afford anime discs. I'd also assert that most anime otaku are the most naive to buy into the belief that true otaku buy Blu-rays of their favorite shows when they're still young.

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I think there's way too much focus on the age of the characters. Wouldn't a discerning adult viewer prefer a smart, involving series about a teenager over a dumb, boring one about an adult?

I don't have a problem with smart, involving series about kids and teens; I have a number of such shows in my favorites list. I'd just prefer that they appear elsewhere in the anime schedule than Noitamina. It's not like there aren't already enough slots to accommodate those shows. It didn't take Noitamina to produce Noein, Coil, or Erin; it also didn't take Noitamina to produce Bartender or Mouryou no Hako. Still when I look at the offerings outside of Noitamina, there just don't seem to be many shows with the mature sensibilities we see in those latter two shows.

To shift the focus off Noitamina for a moment, what's happened to NHK/BS2? They used to carry shows like Planetes, Saiunkoku Monogatari, Twelve Kingdoms, and Moribito. I haven't seen shows like those from BS2 in quite a while. I admit to not having yet seen last year's Shinrei Tantei Yakumo, but that never seemed to create much of a vibe, at least around here. Hyouge Mono looks like a plausible contender, but fansubwiki doesn't show much interest among subbers in picking up this show.

[OT - With so many shows now being streamed, aren't there some relatively underemployed groups who might focus on shows like Hyouge Mono or Otona Joshi no Anime Time? My suggestion about the latter seems to have fallen on deaf ears over in the "who is going to sub what" thread.]

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

I don't have a problem with smart, involving series about kids and teens; I have a number of such shows in my favorites list. I'd just prefer that they appear elsewhere in the anime schedule than Noitamina. It's not like there aren't already enough slots to accommodate those shows. It didn't take Noitamina to produce Noein, Coil, or Erin; it also didn't take Noitamina to produce Bartender or Mouryou no Hako. Still when I look at the offerings outside of Noitamina, there just don't seem to be many shows with the mature sensibilities we see in those latter two shows.


[OT - With so many shows now being streamed, aren't there some relatively underemployed groups who might focus on shows like Hyouge Mono or Otona Joshi no Anime Time? My suggestion about the latter seems to have fallen on deaf ears over in the "who is going to sub what" thread.]

Not to mention Showa Monogotari - no one appears to be subbing that one either.

I guess for me I'm taking a simplistic view of this. All I really care about is quality - I'll watch any show, any genre, if it's good and I don't care if a show hits all my checkpoints, if it isn't any good I won't watch it. From the NoitaminA perspective it matters less to me whether they meet any demographic wishlist than that they put out a good product, because there are so few really great shows at any given time. When a series is as great as Hourou Musuko, what do I care if it's about adults or teenagers?

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

Maybe they want to middle-aged male otaku who like to look at middle schoolers?

See? Empathy!

I was going to point out that K-On! and Angel Beats aren't set in middle schools, but then I remembered that my favourite characters in the two shows (Azusa and Kanade) share two defining physical traits: a) being short and b) being flat.

Also, is it just me, or do both of the current Noitamina shows have fairly feminine male leads? Probably helps explain why I like both characters, I liked Renji from EF for similar reasons.

(Yes, I am a non-lolicon straight male. Seriously.)

Originally Posted by cyth

Well I could just as easily have mentioned involvement of manchildren, but I think the bulk of K-ON!'s success lies in selling life goods. Also, middle/highschool students in Japan aren't so poor that they couldn't afford anime discs. I'd also assert that most anime otaku are the most naive to buy into the belief that true otaku buy Blu-rays of their favorite shows when they're still young.

Rhetoric about manchildren is irrelevent - the simple fact is that I know a lot of geeks and across multiple geekdoms I'm part of, the big spenders are almost universally young working adults. As an adult moe fan who knows a number of other adult moe fans, I see little reason to assume this situation is any different.

Edit: Perhaps the best example I can think of is actually the PC enthusiast community. I have one friend who is a big PC gaming enthusiast. In high school, he was very, very practical and pragmatic about upgrading his PC for new games. Nowadays, I can only surmise the attitude behind some of the upgrades he makes as "because I can". And this is pretty much the norm from what I've seen. When I look at the guys who run PC configurations that make me think the person has more money than sense, they're usually not teenagers.

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by Last Sinner

Actually, Wandering Son was meant to be 12 episodes, but due to the earthquake/tsunami, what were going to be Episodes 10 and 11 were compiled into a single episode and 12 became 11. Source

No, that had nothing to do with the earthquake. noitaminA did not skip a week because of the earthquake, (it skipped a week in Feb due to scheduling), and 10+11 was planned to be episode 10 since they found out they only had 11 episodes and not 12 to broadcast.

[SeijiSensei]

With only a couple of weeks to go before the new Noitamina season begins, should we conclude that Funimation's agreement with FujiTV has come to an end? Perhaps the writing was already on the wall when Funi carried only Fractale this season. Crunchyroll's decision to carry Hourou Musoko has not led to their picking up either of the new shows, either, given their announcements.

Both of the new shows appear to be anime originals, and thus perhaps riskier than manga adaptations. Nakamura's C seems an especially dicey proposition after Trapeze's poor showing. AnoHana may turn out well, but Fractale hasn't been a barn-burner either if you look at YouTube viewings. It's on a par with House of Five Leaves or Tatami Galaxy. Shiki is only available at Hulu now, where viewing figures are unavailable, as its being released to DVD. By that criterion, Funimation is batting one for six with Noitamina properties.

It looks as though the Funimation/Noitamina deal was a one-year trial balloon, and that Crunchyroll isn't rushing to pick up these properties either.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

With only a couple of weeks to go before the new Noitamina season begins, should we conclude that Funimation's agreement with FujiTV has come to an end? Perhaps the writing was already on the wall when Funi carried only Fractale this season. Crunchyroll's decision to carry Hourou Musoko has not led to their picking up either of the new shows, either, given their announcements

Crunchyroll still has one "to be announced" left on their Spring lineup, which if I had to guess based on rumours is AnoHana.

[ahelo]

I'm worrying about the ratings but not the quality of the series being produced. Besides Fractale every series they produced these past couple of seasons were great imo. Keep your finger's crossed for C and Anohana to have high ratings.

[cyth]

Originally Posted by ahelo

Keep your finger's crossed for C and Anohana to have high ratings.

Judging those two by the trailers, their ratings will disappoint the same way this last season did.

[Soliloquy]

I watched 3 anime from NoitaminA which are: Eden of the East, Tatami Galaxy and House of Five Leaves. They were all excellent particularly Tatami Galaxy. Visuals were mind-blowing and the story was unique to say the least. I loved the fact everything was consistent and not forced.

All 3 anime were rather distinct and not resorting to stereotype. I have to say NoitaminA is the shining beacon in this industry when it comes to making a new sort of anime. I just hope more anime like this to come out.

[SeijiSensei]

Next on your list should be the "Bakeneko" arc of Ayakashi Samurai Horror Tales. It's followed by an excellent, though fansubbed-only, sequel entitled Mononoke. They look like nothing else I've seen. (I suggest the Black-Sheep version, though Shinsen's are quite good, too.)

Hakaba Kitarou adopts the comic book style of the original GeGeGe no Kitarou along with its dark story. Moyashimon will teach you a lot about about "brewing" (in all its forms) and introduce you to some cute and hilarious microbes.

The creative team behind Bakeneko/Mononoke also made Kuuchuu Buranko which mixes live-action and animation in an unusual way. Though I didn't like it much when it was released, I'm giving it another chance now while I wait for their upcoming show [C].

The remaining shows I've seen are generally well-animated but not so stylistically unconventional as these. Tokyo Magnitude 8.0 goes for that same shiny modern look that Eden of the East displays, but it's not as visually inventive. The remaining, less stylistically distinctive shows often excel in characters and story like Hataraki Man and Nodame Cantabile.

[Soliloquy]

I'm certainly interested in watching more from NoitaminA. As of now, I'm watching Hourou Musuko and I have to say it's certainly interesting but I don't know what to think of it. I only watched a couple of episodes and I definitely think it has that mature aura around though the main characters are middle school students. I can see why it's quite underappreciated like other anime series from NoitaminA.

I believe I do have heard of Ayakashi Samurai Horror Tales but have never come across any images or the trailers. The title already intrigues me and I'll get around to check it out. And I don't mind if the shows are derivative as long as it has a good plots and character development.

I like simple anime series that are run-of-the-mill slice of life. With that reason, I'm also interested in checking out Honey & Clover, yet design of a certain character lose my interest. And I guess I'm not really fond of the pastel character design which is why I didn't have good impressions on both Honey & Clover and Hourou Musuko.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Eclectic

I like simple anime series that are run-of-the-mill slice of life. [...] And I guess I'm not really fond of the pastel character design which is why I didn't have good impressions on both Honey & Clover and Hourou Musuko.

I'd definitely recommend Hataraki Man then. It's about the life of an ordinary, realistic woman juggling the demands of her career and a relationship, and the animation style is clean and not at all pastel.

[Last Sinner]

Just a thought - does anyone else think that the 11 episode structure just isn't working for noitaminA shows lately? It worked for Tatami Galaxy since it was a completely original work and was able to be properly scheduled around an 11 episode format. But after seeing Fractale, Wandering Son, Kuragehime and Shiki all be well off in the pacing (Fractale had filler in the middle then rushed late, Wandering Son merged episodes near the end, Kuragehime's ending was a hackjob and Shiki was way too slow at the start.) It's getting to the point things that the noitaminA slot have to fit that 11 episode format or else. I just don't see why, because it doesn't seem to accomodate what they're doing in a lot of cases. If they need to do 12 or 13, is that really so bad? Wish I could see whether it's a budgeting issue or something similar, because it's beginning to irritate me how many shows are suffering from not being worked into their assigned length properly. Anime no Chikara was another timeslot that had those problems (well, anything from that timeslot did).

[Isegrim]

Originally Posted by Last Sinner

It worked for Tatami Galaxy since it was a completely original work

That's not correct, Tatami Galaxy is based on a novel by Tomihiko Morimi, which was published in 2004.

[Guardian Enzo]

I don't like the 11-episode format, for the same reason that I don't like the 12 or 13-episode format. Most series would be better with two cour - there was a time not that long ago that most series were. If it's harder to tell a good story in 13, then 11 is that much worse. It's clearly evident in shows like Kuragehime, Hourou Musuko (though that show did the best job it possibly could) and Fractale that 11 episodes limits what a series can accomplish.

[Cnidocyte]

Originally Posted by Last Sinner

Just a thought - does anyone else think that the 11 episode structure just isn't working for noitaminA shows lately? It worked for Tatami Galaxy since it was a completely original work and was able to be properly scheduled around an 11 episode format. But after seeing Fractale, Wandering Son, Kuragehime and Shiki all be well off in the pacing (Fractale had filler in the middle then rushed late, Wandering Son merged episodes near the end, Kuragehime's ending was a hackjob and Shiki was way too slow at the start.) It's getting to the point things that the noitaminA slot have to fit that 11 episode format or else. I just don't see why, because it doesn't seem to accomodate what they're doing in a lot of cases. If they need to do 12 or 13, is that really so bad? Wish I could see whether it's a budgeting issue or something similar, because it's beginning to irritate me how many shows are suffering from not being worked into their assigned length properly. Anime no Chikara was another timeslot that had those problems (well, anything from that timeslot did).

I'd disagree that fractal and shiki's pacing problems had much to do with the length of the time slot. Shiki's pacing seemed to be more of an issue with adapting the source material. While fractal could have been given any number of episodes and still would have been a mess since that seemed to be more of a problem with the actual script and directing of the show.

I Agree with you about Kuragehime, though it probably would have needed another cour to reach a sensible conclusion so I’m not convinced one or two episodes would have helped.