Psycho-Pass 2 - Episode 4 Discussion / Poll

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by prototype_sky

Well the guns don't auto fire it's still up to the inspectors and enforcers to use their judgement and not pull the trigger.

I made such sarcastic comment exactly because the inspectors and enforcers save Akane didn't have any judgment whatsoever.
Division 2 was basically stuck because Aoyanagi didn't contact anyone and Mika had cold feet.
Division 3 was simply shooting anyone who was within the law enforcement treshold.

A drone army with "shoot on sight" would have done the very same job without being potential target themselves.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by mechalord

The Overlords don't care if cops die. All they care about is perfecting the system and running the city.

And they do like having their system cracked. Everyone who does it or impresses them gets "invited" into the hive mind/collective.

The Sybil system is designed for keeping normal people controlled. The extreme minority without consciences, the true sociopaths can not be detected... since this could probably threaten the Overlords.

Precisely.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

When a system is flawed, logically speaking, those in control of such system would either 1) fix the actual issue or 2) elaborate counter measures.
Yet, we still have enforcers and inspectors being completely useless the moment they can't use the dominator on their target.

I think that condemning the inability of the the Inspectors and Enforcers to change their methods to deal with these unexpected situations misses the main issue: which is that Sibyl is the one in control.

Besides, enforcers clearly train to be able to take down people without the dominators. The Inspectors aren't meant to do so themselves. Which is a problem, given that the enforcers aren't meant to act on their own, according to the 'rules'.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Meanwhile, it is extremely doubtful Sybil would ignore such kind of issue. Past the possibility of capturing another brain to their collection, if they don't have any appropriate countermeasure for this kind of individual, their rule could be put in jeopardy altogether.

This is the major problem for Sibyl. If it doesn't give Inspectors and Enforcers other means of taking down criminals, then these irregulars will always challenge them. But at the same time, Sibyl doesn't want to acknowledge that there is something wrong with the system, because that will also undermine its rule.

In short: the problem for Sibyl is that both doing something and doing nothing can challenge their rule. So as it turns out, their response after Makishima was not to change the system.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

I can see why Makishima was left unchecked because it is probably the first asymptomatic criminal that could muster riots to that extent. But by the end of S1, I find reasonable to think that Sybil would actually have countermeasures to handle this kind of situation, per their obsession to be a perfect system no less.

This is Japan we're talking about. So personally, I can totally see nothing being done about this, especially given how Sibyl wants to keep pushing that image of 'the system works just fine'.

[mechalord]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

The rinse and repeat mention merely points out the issue I have with the second season: Kamui and Makishima don't have the same perspective, ambitions nor motivations, yet their purpose and goal are exactly the same.
Following this, it is yet another "a special individual is challenging the system" situation where the very same shortcomings appear to be obvious.

When a system is flawed, logically speaking, those in control of such system would either 1) fix the actual issue or 2) elaborate counter measures.
Yet, we still have enforcers and inspectors being completely useless the moment they can't use the dominator on their target.
Simply put, it is as if Makishima's actions didn't affect anything to the point the system is the -very- same than prior S1 ep1, which is ludicrous no matter how you look at it, since Sybil is not a machine or an IA, but a collective consciousness plugged on brains that can learn. As such, having the -very same- ol' system doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
It is exactly because it is only a 1 cour series that I'm really questioning the need of such presentation.
Having again the same pattern, taking already a quarter of the episode count to have an obvious reminder of the system weakness is a big deal, especially that some characters aside of Akane should be aware of the that (Ginoza knows full well about Makishima with all the crap happened in S1, yet still couldn't really believe Kamui exist).

Meanwhile, it is extremely doubtful Sybil would ignore such kind of issue. Past the possibility of capturing another brain to their collection, if they don't have any appropriate countermeasure for this kind of individual, their rule could be put in jeopardy altogether.

I never stated otherwise. The whole thing is that Makishima alone almost took down their system altogether.
Beyond being a very valuable sample for them, Makishima was also a very dangerous individual since he could have been the end of them if he wasn't stopped.

Whether or not they lose cops isn't the issue. A system like theirs need countermeasure so their little "play the king" humor would be left intact.
That's also why your mention of "perfecting the system" is kind of amusing to me because they aren't perfecting it at all: the simple presence of an irregular is enough to tell you that the system has a flaw that can be abused. By definition, you certainly want to learn more about that irregular to perfect the system, but in the meantime, you need countermeasure to avoid risks of having the system completely destroyed.

The system relies on recruiting new irregulars. The irregulars are true and complete super sociopaths. The Overlords want them to exist. It's already been stated.

The system is meant to keep brains like theirs in power and to make them boil to the top when they're born.

The Sybil system is managed by sociopaths. The psychiatric measurements are based on their calculations. The system is not designed for keeping people like them under control. If it were, it would threaten them if a weapon was ever pointed at them. The Sybil system detects irregulars by not detecting them.

The Overlords are also super intellectual. In the end, they protect the system but if they are defeated, they might accept their inferiority. They're super cocky and don't think 1 man or woman can take on all of them.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by karice67

I think that condemning the inability of the the Inspectors and Enforcers to change their methods to deal with these unexpected situations misses the main issue: which is that Sibyl is the one in control.

What did I miss? I did blame Sybil for the Inspectors and Enforcers shortcomings.
The latter are shackled by the system limitations and the likes. By extention, their incompetence once the dominator cannot be used fall to Sybil responsibility.

This is the major problem for Sibyl. If it doesn't give Inspectors and Enforcers other means of taking down criminals, then these irregulars will always challenge them. But at the same time, Sibyl doesn't want to acknowledge that there is something wrong with the system, because that will also undermine its rule.

Sybil wants to keep control over the nation, under the guise the system is perfect.
However, Sybil itself acknowledges they are NOT perfect, otherwise their little cursade of more brain etc doesn't make any sense.
Hell, when Sybil explained that to Akane, they blatantly continue this charade in order to attain that perfect status.

If the system was that perfect, they wouldn't need Enforcers and Inspectors to pull the trigger, which means Sybil already acknowledged in public that the system needs humans in the equation in order to be effective.
So I really question the fact that they don't give any other means to deal with their targets.

Counter measures are evidence that a system is prepared to deal with any "worst case scenario" at hand, which doesn't suddenly belittle how "great" it is to begin with. Furthermore, they have added liability in the equation since one using the dominator is human, hence they ought to supplement human shortcoming with additional equipment or measures.
i.e: let's assume we have a high CC criminal, but the said criminal is athletic to the point they can get into close quarter range with the inspectors etc... how are they going to deal with that if the dominator can't be used? What if the said inspector or enforcer is disarmed for some reason?
A lot of scenario can happen even without the need of asymptomatic criminals in the equation.

That's why Sybil is way too contradictory on its own terms: they have flaws that are known by a bunch of people already, but not only they don't silence the latter, they don't address the issue in order to 1) polish their system 2) increase the odds to capture more irregulars.
Not changing the system simply increases the odds of having the system taken down or miss the opportunity to capture another brain. It is plainly a loss loss situation for them.

[kenshinstyle]

My Psycho-Pass is dead. I refuse to see this as season 2 of the brilliant season 1 psycho pass. God, the way the characters act, I almost wanted to punch my computer screen especially at Mika. Like others had said, this is way too heavy handed and I could only laugh at it all when the victims got shot down. This is trying too hard and having the shock factor in your face which just break my immersion.

When I heard this is written by Hamatora's writer, I tried to keep my hopes up, but now my worst fears have been confirmed.

[Haruyasha]

見えてるか？僕たちが流す血の色が。僕たちが何色か？答えてみろ。

What color is "our blood".

Well, there's pretty much the whole reasoning behind what Kamui is doing.

1. He already knows (or is very confident) that Sibyl isn't human.
2. He wants to judge Sibyl. (Proof in point made by Akane.)



I think people are forgetting that Sibyl is the main antagonist here, not Kamui. Kamui is more of a rebel / liberator. (Also known as an anti-hero.)

Originally Posted by mechalord

The Sybil system is designed for keeping normal people controlled. The extreme minority without consciences, the true sociopaths can not be detected... since this could probably threaten the Overlords.

I think you're somewhat mistaken. Him being a sociopath has absolutely nothing to do with it. Makishima was scannable, but Kamui cannot be scanned at all. (Which was made a point in the first episode after the Dominator failed to detect him and drifted to the detective instead.)

Him being a ghost = He cannot be scanned.

As I mentioned earlier, he has a scar on his head, which is probably related.

[mechalord]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

What did I miss? I did blame Sybil for the Inspectors and Enforcers shortcomings.
The latter are shackled by the system limitations and the likes. By extention, their incompetence once the dominator cannot be used fall to Sybil responsibility.
Sybil wants to keep control over the nation, under the guise the system is perfect.
However, Sybil itself acknowledges they are NOT perfect, otherwise their little cursade of more brain etc doesn't make any sense.
Hell, when Sybil explained that to Akane, they blatantly continue this charade in order to attain that perfect status.

If the system was that perfect, they wouldn't need Enforcers and Inspectors to pull the trigger, which means Sybil already acknowledged in public that the system needs humans in the equation in order to be effective.
So I really question the fact that they don't give any other means to deal with their targets.

Counter measures are evidence that a system is prepared to deal with any "worst case scenario" at hand, which doesn't suddenly belittle how "great" it is to begin with. Furthermore, they have added liability in the equation since one using the dominator is human, hence they ought to supplement human shortcoming with additional equipment or measures.
i.e: let's assume we have a high CC criminal, but the said criminal is athletic to the point they can get into close quarter range with the inspectors etc... how are they going to deal with that if the dominator can't be used? What if the said inspector or enforcer is disarmed for some reason?
A lot of scenario can happen even without the need of asymptomatic criminals in the equation.

That's why Sybil is way too contradictory on its own terms: they have flaws that are known by a bunch of people already, but not only they don't silence the latter, they don't address the issue in order to 1) polish their system 2) increase the odds to capture more irregulars.
Not changing the system simply increases the odds of having the system taken down or miss the opportunity to capture another brain. It is plainly a loss loss situation for them.

Sociopaths make the rules, a collective of disembodied extremely sociopathic minds. You have to keep in mind who runs the city... former anarchist, extreme sociopath serial killers.

If you fit in, you live, if you're "insane" you die. If you can break, you get discriminated against and locked up. Sociopaths lack empathy, remorse, and show different emotions than normal people in stressful situations. The Overlords or Overseers will not label sociopaths as "mad" because that would mean they are and they should be terminated.

[atua]

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Assault Dominator

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What's with the "Execution" status on the 287 CC target? Is the new dominator just locked to eliminator mode all the time? Or just has a lower threshold for lethal eliminator mode instead of the usual < 300 CC? Or just art error?

[Haruyasha]

Originally Posted by atua

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Assault Dominator

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What's with the "Execution" status on the 287 CC target? Is the new dominator just locked to eliminator mode all the time? Or just has a lower threshold for lethal eliminator mode instead of the usual <300 CC? Or just art error?

It was always like that.

Execution means "able to enforce action on target" ... not so much to kill them.

The icon on the top right indicates the mode ... but I guess they didn't think it through with multiple targets.

[Aniwatcher]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

I'm not implying Kamui and Makishima have the same amibitious or MO, but the outcome is pretty much the same: overturn the current system.
Both are going back and forth, bypassing the system altogether.

Whether or not Sybil want to get a new brain isn't the problem. What is the critical issue at hand is that the very sociopath they want to get is also a very dangerous factor in their iron gauntlet ruling habits.
Makishima alone was enough to nearly take down the system by denying Japan of its self sufficient attribute. If someone like that could do that, I -really- have doubt you would let things unchecked once again.

Again, I don't expect Sybil to magically address all potential asymptomatic criminals or other weakness exploiters, but their "eyes" and "hands", as in enforcers and inspectors, are pretty much sitting ducks exactly because of the system weakness. Hence why I question the purpose of the latter, since Sybil would have the very same result by dispatching drones mounted with Dominator and a trigger happy mode for the hell of it.
Season 2 is actually making the Sybil system loophole even more glaring than it was in season 1. For a so called perfect system that has to use their own discretion to keep their rule solid and unquestioned, the brains are pretty much screwing around, big time.

They don't use drones with dominator because that is not good for propaganda. Its much easier to maintain control over a populace when you have a human face around even if they are mostly just puppets and not worth a damn. If civilian sees a drone or machines doing the killing, they will start to ask questions and become suspicious of the system. Why do you think that the overlords never show their true form as nothing but a collection of sociopaths brains in a vat, but instead choose to have a police chief robot shell for cover? its all about PR.

[atua]

Originally Posted by Haruyasha

It was always like that.

Execution means "able to enforce action on target" ... not so much to kill them.

The icon on the top right indicates the mode ... but I guess they didn't think it through with multiple targets.

Yes, the dominator's got two targets and in the top right it says Eliminator, even though one of two targets is under the lethal eliminator limit.

Originally Posted by Haruyasha

I think you're somewhat mistaken. Him being a sociopath has absolutely nothing to do with it. Makishima was scannable, but Kamui cannot be scanned at all. (Which was made a point in the first episode after the Dominator failed to detect him and drifted to the detective instead.)

Him being a ghost = He cannot be scanned.

As I mentioned earlier, he has a scar on his head, which is probably related.

I'm really hoping they don't make Kamui's reason for being undetectable be because he's supposed to be dead, and thus not in the living people database, like that holo woman...

[Haruyasha]

Originally Posted by atua

Yes, the dominator's got two targets and in the top right it says Eliminator, even though one of two targets is under the lethal eliminator limit.

The multiple icons are probably simply to show everyone in the aiming reticle and their CC.

I don't think it actually shoots multiple people, as the guy stated he shot the highest CC target. He probably has to point it at someone before it actually fires. (And most likely wouldn't function on the <300 target.)



Execution is probably Engrish. They probably meant to write "Enforceable".

[atua]

Originally Posted by Haruyasha

The multiple icons are probably simply to show everyone in the aiming reticle and their CC.

The fact that the new assault dominator can't identify the target when the old one could is the worst kind of plot driven writing. It makes no sense at all that it can scan for someone's PP but not identify them. It's done just to generate cheap melodrama and angst with Aoyanagi.

[Haruyasha]

I'm sure it can identify them. Just think of it this way, if there are two dangerous people, but one is especially dangerous, wouldn't it make sense to go into Eliminator mode so that you can take care of the most dangerous target first?

As I said, the sniper wasn't able to shoot the crazy guy simply because he wasn't over 300 just yet.. which I guess he crossed while he was talking with Kamui.

[Aniwatcher]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Whether or not they lose cops isn't the issue. A system like theirs need countermeasure so their little "play the king" humor would be left intact.
That's also why your mention of "perfecting the system" is kind of amusing to me because they aren't perfecting it at all: the simple presence of an irregular is enough to tell you that the system has a flaw that can be abused. By definition, you certainly want to learn more about that irregular to perfect the system, but in the meantime, you need countermeasure to avoid risks of having the system completely destroyed.
I can see why Makishima was left unchecked because it is probably the first asymptomatic criminal that could muster riots to that extent. But by the end of S1, I find reasonable to think that Sybil would actually have countermeasures to handle this kind of situation, per their obsession to be a perfect system no less.

Thats not how ideological autocracy works. They don't change unless held at gunpoint. There are dimes a dozen real world examples:

At this very moment Japanese gov decided to restart a nuclear powerplant and not just any nuclear powerplant but one that just happens to sit 40 miles from an active volcano that's showing increased activity. You did think after fukushima and the whole lets remove the natural seawall disaster that they would learn a thing or two, you did be wrong.

[Triple_R]

I can certainly understand where some of the criticisms are coming from. Amarantine raises some good points in this post here.

However, I think the hollowness and tastelessness of it might be part of the point. It might be intended to be a reflection of the hollowness and tastelessness of Sybil itself.

Season 1 gave us Batman rogues. It's not hard to imagine folks like Makishima, Rikako, and the Cyborg hunter being villains in any society they happen to be born into. Are they a reflection on Sybil, or are they a reflection on how any society can have their extreme criminals?

What we're now seeing in Season 2 is a more fundamental fraying of the Sibyl society. Kamui may be just as vile as Makishima is, in his methods, but Kamui strikes me as a more direct response to Sybil and its government than Makishima was. For Makishima, there was a certain playfulness to it all, a desire to amuse himself with interesting individuals, and to challenge himself against worthy rivals. Fighting Sybil was important to Makishima, don't get me wrong, but it wasn't an all-encompassing drive for him.

Kamui, OTOH, is taking actions to completely undermine the Sibyl system, and he's doing it right from the outset, no playing around. Rather than laying bait, and playing games with the police, Kamui is going directly after the police right from the outset. Kamui strikes me as a more clear-cut revolutionary than Makishima was, at least so far.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

If the system was that perfect, they wouldn't need Enforcers and Inspectors to pull the trigger, which means Sybil already acknowledged in public that the system needs humans in the equation in order to be effective.
So I really question the fact that they don't give any other means to deal with their targets.

Sybil Japan is clearly rooted in the idea that hues and crime coefficients have 100% overlap with actual criminality. No exceptions. I mean, that's precisely why folks like Makishima must be made to "disappear", and ideally absorbed into Sibyl itself.

So arming Enforcers and Inspectors with something other than a dominator could easily come across as a tacit admission that hues/CCs do not necessarily have 100% overlap with actual criminality. It would be a tacit admission that Enforcers and Inspectors are able to determine what constitutes criminality all on their own.


Perhaps much of what gave rise to Sibyl Japan was a deep distrust of the police, and hence a desire for a more reliable system for determining criminality and dispensing justice. Perhaps somebody suggested retiring police forces entirely, and leaving robots/droids to handle everything, but people felt that was a step too far. People wanted greater objectivity, but not complete dehumanization of the criminal justice system. So the criminal justice system maintains a human face, but those humans are essentially disarmed against people that are not considered criminals by Sibyl itself.

I should state that I write the paragraph above without absorbing any extra-anime materials that may exist for this, that may run contrary to my speculations. So if anybody is aware of such materials, please feel free to correct me. But to the best of my knowledge, there's never been a complete timeline showing how Japan transitioned from the Japan we know in the real world to Sibyl Japan. To the best of my knowledge, we can only ask questions and make speculations there.

It seems likely to me that something must have went very badly at some point for people to be desiring a shift to this Sibyl system. It's hard for me to imagine much of a desire for the Sibyl system otherwise, especially in Japan of all places (one of the great ironies of Psycho-Pass, to me, is how I can much more easily imagine Sibyl being defensible in an American context than in a Japanese one - America has a much greater problem with crime than Japan does, after all).

[atua]

Originally Posted by Haruyasha

I'm sure it can identify them. Just think of it this way, if there are two dangerous people, but one is especially dangerous, wouldn't it make sense to go into Eliminator mode so that you can take care of the most dangerous target first?

As I said, the sniper wasn't able to shoot the crazy guy simply because he wasn't over 300 just yet.. which I guess he crossed while he was talking with Kamui.

In a normal dominator, the name and picture of the target shows up on the right when you have the reticule focused on them. So if the shooter could identify the target, why in the world would they kill a fellow inspector first, instead of the other guy? Besides, the fact that the shooter said that he didn't know what he was shooting at, and just aimed for the one with the higher PP suggests that he couldn't identify the target. And just because the crazy guy had a < 300 CC didn't mean he couldn't shoot him. Shooting the perp in paralyzer mode would've helped defuse the situation too.

[synx]

Originally Posted by atua

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Assault Dominator

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What's with the "Execution" status on the 287 CC target? Is the new dominator just locked to eliminator mode all the time? Or just has a lower threshold for lethal eliminator mode instead of the usual < 300 CC? Or just art error?

They might have been set to eliminator mode by the Chief since she wanted no witnesses.

[Irenesharda]

Wow...I haven't seen an episode this disturbing since season one..

Kamui is one sick sociopath (still not as good as Makishima's psychopath, but he's getting there ), and unfortunately another inspector has lost her life.

Sybil wants the cover up that there could be such a thing as eustress deficiency. And we get to meet team 3 with the first male inspectors so far, and what do ya know? They're totally gun happy...

Also, I was tolerating Mika so far, but this episode...this episode, she got on my last nerve! First she's jealous of Akane, and then starts speaking down at her at every turn, she acts like she has this big chip on her shoulder, and can't seem to believe what's RIGHT IN FRONT OF HER FACE!

I mean, come on, how many times do completely unrelated people have to talk about a guy named Kamui before you begin to believe there is such a person?

Also, what kind of sheep are these hostages? He didn't even have a gun. Why the heck didn't you all rush him? The guy was an elderly asthmatic for goodness sake! I understand being scared and shocked, but shouldn't some our your fighting survival instincts have begun to kick in?

And Kamui has finished his experiment and his question of "what color?" is beginning to take a more serious, and deadly light.

I hope Gino can be a little more supportive of Akane now that he's beginning to believe Kamui is real (about time...). And why is he so worried about her hue? If her hue didn't get clouded with all the crap in season one, why the heck would it now that she's more experienced and hardened?

This was a really disturbing episode, and I'm a bit afraid and yet thrilled to see what will be coming next.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

Wow...I haven't seen an episode this disturbing since season one..

Kamui is one sick sociopath (still not as good as Makishima's psychopath, but he's getting there ), and unfortunately another inspector has lost her life.

Sybil wants the cover up that there could be such a thing as eustress deficiency. And we get to meet team 3 with the first male inspectors so far, and what do ya know? They're totally gun happy...

Also, I was tolerating Mika so far, but this episode...this episode, she got on my last nerve! First she's jealous of Akane, and then starts speaking down at her at every turn, she acts like she has this big chip on her shoulder, and can't seen to believe what's RIGHT IN FRONT OF HER FACE!

I mean, come on, how many times do completely unrelated people have to talk about a guy named Kamui before you begin to believe their is such a person?

And she's completely useless but wonders why no one wants to rely on her.

Also, what kind of sheep are these hostages? He didn't even have a gun. Why the heck didn't you all rush him? The guy was an elderly asthmatic for goodness sake! I understand being scared and shocked, but shouldn't some our your fighting survival instincts have begun to kick in?

Sheep trained by Sibyl. Defending themselves against a criminal will get them killed by an inspector.