2010-11-01, 04:02 | Link #18261 | |||
The True Culprit
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That, and the Sixth Sense/Not Really Battler ideas are totally stupid. Quote:
Brown/Black eyes = Human Purple = Human/Witch Blue = Witch Red = Furniture Gold = Mystery Rules Purple/Amber = Bern and Lambda doing their own thing as always. I'd like to point out that Purple, Red, Gold, and Blue are all the colors we've seen to represent magic and sword slashes and, with the exception of purple (for now) represent Truth colors, as well. Though I suppose we can connect the "black" eyes to the "white" text, too.
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2010-11-01, 08:30 | Link #18263 |
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Still, in at least one episode it's never definitively clear whose corpse, if anyone's, is burned. We know who it cannot be based on who is still alive at the time of discovery, but the possibility is left open as early as ep1 for it to be "someone other than Kinzo."
However, I think it a bit unlikely to be anyone the family explicitly knows. If someone in the immediate family had polydactyly other than Kinzo, one would think somebody would have heard about it. Yet Kinzo is the only such person anyone is aware of. I can't see any good reason to hide that, especially in certain branches of the family (for instance, if Eva or George had it, you'd think Eva would be all about telling everyone about it). So to me it seems like it's either Kinzo or an undisclosed corpse belonging to someone who shares his condition. There are candidates for this role, but they'd all have to probably be long dead.
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2010-11-01, 12:10 | Link #18264 |
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Join Date: Oct 2010
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no corpses exist except those of characters who have appeared in the story
none of the corpses would ever lead to a mistaken autopsy As the previous user once said, they would have not singled out Kinzo as the person in the boiler room if any other had this condition. Of course, if it was never a corpse to begin with then this wouldn't apply but that would be pushing it. |
2010-11-01, 12:11 | Link #18265 |
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In Episode 4, every corpse except Kanon's appears at the same time as Kinzo's corpse. (Well, it's possible that somebody was still alive after Battler reentered the mansion, redressed one of the early corpses he found and burned that one, hoping that Battler wouldn't notice that a corpse disappeared.) And I'd say Kanon's too small to pass for Kinzo.
And how would a fake corpse really benefit? In episode 3, it would have opened a spot for an 18th person; after episode 4, that's closed.
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2010-11-01, 12:30 | Link #18266 |
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We'd say that, but we can't know that. All we know is the corpse is "someone assumed to be Kinzo, who shares a particular trait with Kinzo." That means it's either Kinzo or someone who shares a trait with him. I'm not suggesting it's a random person or a fake body, just that if it's not Kinzo (and ever since ep1 we've been given that option with Battler's oddly specific non-description of the charred body), it has to be somebody else with polydacytly. And this person is very unlikely to be an Ushiromiya (publically, anyway).
It might be easier to say with surety that it is Kinzo if we even knew that Kinzo's corpse actually exists. Battler himself has "seen" Kinzo only twice, once symbolically, once under very bizarre circumstances. For the corpse burned to be Kinzo's, we must take it for granted that Kinzo still even has a corpse, which goes against what Krauss and Natsuhi are alleged to want. But we honestly don't even know whether it's being kept somewhere, and if it is, where. To say nothing of what condition it might be in.
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2010-11-01, 12:51 | Link #18267 |
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Suppose that, say, Nanjo managed to acquire a corpse of roughly the same size as Kinzo who had polydactyly. (The corpse is a patient who died at the clinic; he gave the victim's family somebody else's ashes.) What difference does that make?
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2010-11-01, 12:52 | Link #18268 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2010
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Presentation of evidence. I'll present a corpse which could possibly be identified as Ushiromiya Kinzo's...!!
I guarantee that this corpse is Ushiromiya Kinzo's corpse...!! We still dont know how the gold truth works, it could be that that it works so long as there is a possibility that it could be truth or that it could be interpreted by the user as the truth. I like to believe that the gold truth is a truth being backed with evidence and thats why its admissible in the witch court even when used by humans. Quote:
The corpse must be someone mentioned in the story, it must be one of the 18 persons from the original story. If they drag someone into this then they would have been mentioned or at least inferred to have exist. Hell it could be Rosa's love interest! |
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2010-11-01, 13:01 | Link #18269 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2010
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...Hell I'm gonna run with that theory. Double Shkanon 1.5! Kanon=Real Shannon=Real Kanon=Dead at the start of the game Shannon=Alive at the start of the game, becomes Kanon for whatever reason Okay, let's think about this logically: -The game has 17 people -With Shkanon, the game goes down to 16 people. There are three possibilities based on that line of events. 1)Shkanon is real, there are 16 people plus one mysterious person. Let's go ahead and say that the mysterious person is Beatrice. Hell, it could even be the boat captain. He was technically introduced at an early part of the novel. Or if you want to REALLY stretch this theory, it could be an unknown character who was not the culprit, but an accomplice. Dine/Knox/everything say that the culprit must be mentioned at an early part of the story, but there is no such a rule about accomplices. 2)Double Shkanon. Kanon and Shannon both exist in the gameboard, but once one of them dies the other becomes both. 3)Shkanon is not real at all. ...Of course, there is stupid option number 4. 4)Ryuukishi thinks that they count as different people because THEY ARE BOTH CAPABLE OF LOVING. |
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2010-11-01, 13:06 | Link #18270 |
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Join Date: Oct 2010
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I love the idea of Shannon faking her death in EP3 and then switching her clothes and running to the chapel once the entourage finishes examining her so that they can witness Kanon dead as well.
Last edited by Cao Ni Ma; 2010-11-01 at 13:48. |
2010-11-01, 13:54 | Link #18271 | |||
The True Culprit
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Or, more likely, Yasu's the one making the rules for the game, and she personally believes that Shannon and Kanon count as real due to her psycho identity complex. I do find it very notable that EP3 is the only arc, ever, where the corpses of both Shannon and Kanon are seen, and even then not together.
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2010-11-01, 14:24 | Link #18272 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
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2010-11-01, 14:29 | Link #18273 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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I guess I just didn't remember then
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That and purple might mean something similar to white text if we take into account the colors used for both Siesta 556 and Zepar.
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2010-11-01, 14:31 | Link #18274 | ||
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2010-11-01, 15:22 | Link #18275 | |
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2010-11-01, 15:55 | Link #18276 | |
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Seriously, I think it's just a pulled-out-of-ass resolution to an impossible situation. Ryukishi writes himself into a corner and invents a new colored text to get out of it. Then realizes he has to shoehorn it in later so we don't protest, which is why it's so anemic and anti-climactic in its later uses. It could also be viewed as a bluff, but the sort of bluff a GM is permitted to take (which is why Lambda is willing to accept it as valid). After all, Battler knows it can't be identified as Kinzo, so he's guessing it probably can't be objectively identified at all, which allows him to say "since Kinzo is dead, and this corpse can't be identified as Kinzo definitively, I'll guarantee it is because I know you lack the only two kinds of evidence which can dispute it: Another body that is definitely his, or a means to prove this body is somebody else." EDIT: Note that this is also a semi-intentional misuse of gold text if indeed that is what gold text is. It's not actually tightening the story by creating a mutually-agreeable narrative from uncertain facts ("it would be a pain in the ass to have to identify that this is Kinzo, so just assume it is Kinzo and I'll write accordingly"), but wriggling out of a trap by narrowing the focus of the story such that the problem is circumvented. But if so, that certainly makes Battler more clever than we thought. Or luckier.
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2010-11-01, 16:10 | Link #18277 |
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The point is that if that was the case it would either involve him knowing just because he was the game master. In which case:
It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective technique. or Battler guessed, got lucky, believed, bluffed, etc. In which case: It is forbidden for accident or intuition to be employed as a detective technique. |
2010-11-01, 16:19 | Link #18278 |
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No, he Just Knows What To Do(tm) because he's the Game Master. What he did is not supernatural, an accident, or an intuition.
The gold - per this popular theory anyway - is a lie, or if you want to be charitable, a story. Just as everyone got their story straight about the magic bunny rabbits shooting people in ep4, and that became the accepted mutual tale, so too can Battler create a situation in which a matter is not in dispute. In other words, he can B.S. Lying is not an accident or act of intuition. Making up a fact to trap the culprit is, in fact, completely valid as a detective technique. It's not used all that often in classic mysteries, but it is used and used well. Dangling an inconsistent or outright fabricated fact that you know everyone else will not question but which the culprit has to know is false is a great way to make the culprit incriminate himself. So Battler abuses this vague notion to extricate himself: Using GM authority, declare that it's generally understood that a corpse otherwise impossible to objectively verify is Kinzo's. It's unlikely anyone would be specifically opposed to this; after all, they've spent the whole game looking for Kinzo's corpse, and now Battler is saying he can present one. But he can't prove it. So what? Everyone will agree with him (imagine, for example, Battler shoving a body into the parlor at the end of ep5 and saying he's found Kinzo; everyone would be inclined to agree if they can't prove otherwise). Abstracted, the GM can assert that an unprovable fact is an accepted fact through a tacit agreement with the reader. This is identical to two people conspiring to state that a piece of candy under a cup was created by magic. So long as no one else is privy to that construction to dismiss it, it becomes true. In other words, on the board Battler could say "I saw Grandfather's corpse," and on the higher level Battler could say "I can present a corpse which I will agree with the reader will be Kinzo's so we need not mess with the silliness of proving it." Essentially this is what happens every time they find Kinzo in the incinerator. Everybody just agrees it's Kinzo even though his polydactyly is the only proof of it. The only person who would know is whoever shoved him in there.
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