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Old 2022-01-10, 01:44   Link #4101
Endscape
The Mage of Four Hearts
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Originally Posted by Tactics View Post
Second, Miyuki need to have bargain chip to make his demand sensible, like it or not.

None of the complainers arguing about pocket money, honestly, but the circumstances that lead to that.
Seiryu pretty much told Shinomiya clan might as well collapsed if the agreement with Shijo failed, that's why they need her.
Miyuki answer to that? "Muh girlfriend probably get 1% Ganan inheritance when Ganan died so it make sense I asked more money than this."
Miyuki's bargaining chip is the fact that he could potentially convince Kaguya to drop the whole idea and ruin their plan. That's why they're dealing with him in the first place and are willing to give him some pocket money (to them) so he'll go away.
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Old 2022-01-10, 09:05   Link #4102
BWTraveller
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Old 2022-01-10, 10:42   Link #4103
kari-no-sugata II
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If they know that this little beggar is going to continue to be a serious nuisance, and that someone they want to control is going to continue to empathize with him unless they appease him, they're going to be willing to upgrade their offering within certain limits.
Yep. An important distinction with all this is that everything Kaguya's brothers are doing here is to appease Kaguya. She's the one who asked for the payment to be made. If she's not happy with the results then she can derail everything. So they're making the payment to Miyuki to appease Kaguya. It's the cost of her compliance.
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Old 2022-01-10, 11:02   Link #4104
Shadow5YA
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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Miyuki's bargaining chip is the fact that he could potentially convince Kaguya to drop the whole idea and ruin their plan. That's why they're dealing with him in the first place and are willing to give him some pocket money (to them) so he'll go away.
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Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata II View Post
Yep. An important distinction with all this is that everything Kaguya's brothers are doing here is to appease Kaguya. She's the one who asked for the payment to be made. If she's not happy with the results then she can derail everything. So they're making the payment to Miyuki to appease Kaguya. It's the cost of her compliance.
I don't really believe that Kaguya's brothers believe this, since it looked like Oko was fine threatening and blackmailing Kaguya with harming Miyuki to get her to comply earlier.

They clearly didn't care about being nice to Miyuki then.
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Old 2022-01-10, 11:51   Link #4105
kari-no-sugata II
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I don't really believe that Kaguya's brothers believe this, since it looked like Oko was fine threatening and blackmailing Kaguya with harming Miyuki to get her to comply earlier.

They clearly didn't care about being nice to Miyuki then.
I think there key word here is "then".

The fact that they changed their approach indicates that their perspective of the situation has changed.
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Old 2022-01-10, 12:26   Link #4106
Shadow5YA
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Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata II View Post
I think there key word here is "then".

The fact that they changed their approach indicates that their perspective of the situation has changed.
Apparently.

But I don't see any reason why it should have changed. What happened between blackmailing Kaguya and now that made Kaguya or Miyuki any more threatening to them than before?
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Old 2022-01-10, 13:33   Link #4107
BWTraveller
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
I don't really believe that Kaguya's brothers believe this, since it looked like Oko was fine threatening and blackmailing Kaguya with harming Miyuki to get her to comply earlier.

They clearly didn't care about being nice to Miyuki then.
Again, they were willing to threaten. That's how much they want to have her acquiesce to their demands. It's hardly uncommon to see someone threaten to do something to get someone to comply, and that someone come back with some sort of demands; and if those demands are not unreasonably heavy they'll agree to them. This isn't even "changing their perspective". It's just proper negotiations. Even when you have as much of an upper hand as Oko has, a little carrot with the stick goes a long way. In fact, you can't make it to that high a position without learning to offer a few carrots to even the most thoroughly cowed pawns. It would be irrational to refuse a request that makes no difference to him if it would increase his hold on her and reduce any risk of her derailing things.
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Old 2022-01-10, 15:17   Link #4108
Shadow5YA
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Again, they were willing to threaten. That's how much they want to have her acquiesce to their demands. It's hardly uncommon to see someone threaten to do something to get someone to comply, and that someone come back with some sort of demands; and if those demands are not unreasonably heavy they'll agree to them. This isn't even "changing their perspective". It's just proper negotiations. Even when you have as much of an upper hand as Oko has, a little carrot with the stick goes a long way. In fact, you can't make it to that high a position without learning to offer a few carrots to even the most thoroughly cowed pawns. It would be irrational to refuse a request that makes no difference to him if it would increase his hold on her and reduce any risk of her derailing things.
No... that's not how negotiations work.

If threatening doesn't work, then people will be compelled to try alternatives, like negotiating.

But Kaguya already said she gave up after being threatened. She stopped resisting and gave no indication of wanting to fight back. There's no reason for them to be compelled to try negotiating.
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Old 2022-01-10, 15:31   Link #4109
Endscape
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Apparently.

But I don't see any reason why it should have changed. What happened between blackmailing Kaguya and now that made Kaguya or Miyuki any more threatening to them than before?
Now that arrangements have advanced this far, threatening Kaguya is less effective because she is now the lynchpin of the plan, plus a word in Mikado or Maki's ears could have detrimental effects on Oko or Seiryu's positions.
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Old 2022-01-10, 15:39   Link #4110
BWTraveller
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First off, no, negotiations most certainly do require a combination of threat and offer. You don't just show that refusing your demands will bring suffering, but that acquiescing will bring benefits. Demonstrate that you're better as an ally (or master) than as an enemy.

But more to the point, again, anyone with enough brains to manage a pet, much less a corporation, would know that there ALWAYS needs to be a carrot along with the stick, and that they need to be applied promptly at the appropriate times. When she was defiant, yes threats were "called for". But just as you need to make it clear bad things will happen when they defy, you also need to make it clear good things will happen when they obey. Granting small requests like this is just basic common sense for establishing any real control of a party.
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Old 2022-01-17, 14:35   Link #4111
WingedAccelerator
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I always knew that competent Fujiwara is the way to go, not the overused, for no reason demoted to butt-monkey of the group. Bow down to her, peasants.

Spoiler for Chapter 250:
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Old 2022-01-17, 19:30   Link #4112
Kanon
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Fujiwara's plan sounds dumb though. Like, a five year old could have thought that up.
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Old 2022-01-17, 20:14   Link #4113
Kuroageha
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Doesn't make the others look more infantile?
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Old 2022-01-17, 20:54   Link #4114
Diluc
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This is best idea ever. All team has assembled bet none in this earth can faces them not even combination force of Shijo and Shinomoya.

Yea, Avenger assemble!
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Old 2022-01-17, 21:18   Link #4115
Shadow5YA
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I dunno, Fujiwara's still sounds the most productive when compared to the others, as flawed as her logic is (too late to convince Kaguya's father to change his mind when he's barely conscious).
Even if they don't reach their goal, doing some networking will go a long way.

Miko's idea of getting viral on the internet doesn't really work when there's an entire older generation of people with money and power that don't pay attention to social media, and I think it's impossible for Ishigami's idea to last since there's so many people in both families that someone will find out where she's hiding eventually.
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Old 2022-01-18, 01:23   Link #4116
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Originally Posted by WingedAccelerator View Post
I always knew that competent Fujiwara is the way to go, not the overused, for no reason demoted to butt-monkey of the group. Bow down to her, peasants.

Spoiler for Chapter 250:
I have no complaints here. I actually think that's a pretty fair plan (or at least a good starting point). And this's heading into where I've thought it would go: everyone joining forces to pool their resources and take on an enemy far too big to fight. Honestly, I wouldn't throw the other plans out entirely though. Setting up enough preparations to show that one's capable of carrying out one or more of the other plans would make for a good bit of leverage. Of course, realistically speaking, they'd have some difficulties dealing with Oko even if this succeeded, or at least they would in America. I don't know if there are any competency laws in Japan, but over here it is entirely possible to sue to have a legal contract or document invalidated on account of a signer lacking competency. Given how weak and frail he is now, it would not be terribly difficult to make a case that he's grown senile and had been manipulated into creating this new will. Which, again, raises the value of setting some groundwork for the other plans in hopes of creating a large enough threat that surrendering would actually leave him with more power. Would be difficult to pull off (read basically impossible IRL) but better to have something like that, unless they can find something on him damning enough to silence him.
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Old 2022-01-18, 07:11   Link #4117
Tactics
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Originally Posted by WingedAccelerator View Post
I always knew that competent Fujiwara is the way to go, not the overused, for no reason demoted to butt-monkey of the group. Bow down to her, peasants.

Spoiler for Chapter 250:
Kinda sad to aware that they actually can skip this just by talking to Mikado directly.

Its not like he's in different school far from reach and not a friendly person unwilling to sit with Miyuki.

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Old 2022-01-18, 12:37   Link #4118
Sixth
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Originally Posted by WingedAccelerator View Post
I always knew that competent Fujiwara is the way to go, not the overused, for no reason demoted to butt-monkey of the group. Bow down to her, peasants.

Spoiler for Chapter 250:
"ALL HAIL TO FUJIWARA"

and yes, the chapter is already sounds infinitely better than what we got in these past weeks.
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Old 2022-01-18, 12:39   Link #4119
Shadow5YA
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Originally Posted by Tactics View Post
Kinda sad to aware that they actually can skip this just by talking to Mikado directly.

Its not like he's in different school far from reach and not a friendly person unwilling to sit with Miyuki.

I would assume that he's probably not attending class either when this is happening.
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Old 2022-01-18, 23:15   Link #4120
Tactics
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I would assume that he's probably not attending class either when this is happening.
As Maki mentioned to join, this is likely the direction Aka going to.

I'm not sure if making Mikado off-screen immediately is wise decision.
Avoiding Miyuki friend to be branded as part of evil corporate sounds nice as it easily sell that Oko and Seiryu are the big bad.
However with Oko and Seiryu concern in regards of both sides survival I'd like to see how Mikado handle it just to balance awkwardness of Maki decision supporting them.
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character derailment, coming of age, desconstruction, genre shift, love triangle, memeguya, no longer our guy, quality decline, romcom, school life

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