(L) Sword Art Online - Light Novel Discussion

[KnightShade]

on the current topic of kirito and virtual worlds, love and obsession are two different things

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by kidstandout

on the current topic of kirito and virtual worlds, love and obsession are two different things

Then you could say Asuna doesn't really love Kirito either, since what she feels for him is a pretty clear obsession.

But I personally don't think that. I think Kawahara's got love and obsession going hand in hand, if not being pretty much the same thing. And he does intertwine the subject of love with the virtual world theme. What with Kayaba ending up killing himself by pursuing his dreams and leaving the chick that was in love with him behind. His dreams, the virtual world, came first than love for him. And Kirito's pretty much the same. I'm not sure if he really does love Asuna, but he sure loves the virtual world more than anything.

[EdRed]

Interesting interpretation. Kirito does indeed have quite an interest in VR which you could describe as bordering on obsession. Apart from what Yuuki implies, there's little reason to think that he would end up like Kayaba though. Yuuki could simply be wrong about him as well. It's said by a character about a character, that's not a statement of facts.

I'm not sure where you'd get that either of them is obsessed in terms of their relationship though. Not seing Kirito heading anywhere near where Kayaba was honestly.

[KnightShade]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Then you could say Asuna doesn't really love Kirito either, since what she feels for him is a pretty clear obsession.

But I personally don't think that. I think Kawahara's got love and obsession going hand in hand, if not being pretty much the same thing. And he does intertwine the subject of love with the virtual world theme. What with Kayaba ending up killing himself by pursuing his dreams and leaving the chick that was in love with him behind. His dreams, the virtual world, came first than love for him. And Kirito's pretty much the same. I'm not sure if he really does love Asuna, but he sure loves the virtual world more than anything.

good lord, no comment!

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by EdRed

Interesting interpretation. Kirito does indeed have quite an interest in VR which you could describe as bordering on obsession. Apart from what Yuuki implies, there's little reason to think that he would end up like Kayaba though. Yuuki could simply be wrong about him as well. It's said by a character about a character, that's not a statement of facts.

I'm not sure where you'd get that either of them is obsessed in terms of their relationship though. Not seing Kirito heading anywhere near where Kayaba was honestly.

Yeah, he won't end up like Kayaba, but all I was saying is they don't feel the same way about each other. For Asuna, Kirito comes first. But he doesn't feel that way about her. He does care and all, but his goals and dreams come first in his heart. In a way, that makes their relationship a bit one-sided, and I definitely wouldn't call it "true love" like you said.

Originally Posted by kidstandout

good lord, no comment!

Note that I said I don't think that way.

[EdRed]

Well, how should i put this. I think that Kirito is naturally very interested in VR, but it seemed to increase alot since he started trying to integrate Yui into the Real World.
I've always had the impression that Kirito's strong effort towards VR developement were basically a mixed bag between his intial desire and care for his virtual daughter. When Kirito is actually inside the UW, he's struggling to get out because he wants to get back to his lover. At the very end he's abandoning everything and doesn't tell Asuna about the incoming acceleration so that she would leave. As far as he is aware, he will not be able to live long enough because the acceleration is supposed to wear out his soul before those 200 years end. When he thinks himself alone, he's not mourning his future career in VR but that he will never see her again. If he actually were as self focused, he would have asked her to stay, but he would rather have her live an actual life outside instead of taking her with him for his own sake.
I mean, he was brooding so long over asking Asuna to move to the U.S. with him that she had already guessed it before he really said it. And he almost didn't because he thought himself to be an egoist for it. It's not like he said "I'm moving, come with me or don't". I think it's quite okay to ask your lover if they would move with you.


So, what i'm trying to say is, there's very much that shows his deep love for Asuna and he's constantly putting her before himself and his dreams. Imo, if he had to decide, he would go for Asuna over VR.

I thought that i owed you an more elaborate response for what i meant when i called their relationship true love. It's not all there is to say, but i tried to focus on the VR/Love topic a bit.


That's of course my personal interpretation and i'm pretty sure that ymmv.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by EdRed

When Kirito is actually inside the UW, he's struggling to get out because he wants to get back to his lover.

He only thinks about her a few time, but for the most part, he's fine staying there without her. Asuna would never be able to do that. It's stated a few times that she would prefer to die if she can't be with him. That's the most clear clue of how different they are. Their feelings for each other are different.

If he actually were as self focused, he would have asked her to stay, but he would rather have her live an actual life outside instead of taking her with him for his own sake.

On the other hand, that shows that he doesn't need her as much as she needs him.

I mean, he was brooding so long over asking Asuna to move to the U.S. with him that she had already guessed it before he really said it. And he almost didn't because he thought himself to be an egoist for it. It's not like he said "I'm moving, come with me or don't". I think it's quite okay to ask your lover if they would move with you.

Fact is, even without her, he would have gone anyway. His goals come first. But for Asuna, Kirito's first, so of course she would choose to go with him. Unlike him, she would not be able to bear living without him after all.

So, what i'm trying to say is, there's very much that shows his deep love for Asuna and he's constantly putting her before himself and his dreams.

I don't know how you get to that conclusion. Sure he's considerate not to force her into anything, but he doesn't put her before his goals at all. He never said that he would not go to study abroad if she refused to go with him. He had already decided to go even before he asked her to come along.

Imo, if he had to decide, he would go for Asuna over VR.

I totally disagree. He would pursue his dreams regardless, and she would have to follow him or she would lose him. That has always being part of their dynamic. And she's aware of that. Asuna always felt that Kirito could leave her behind even before Yuuki warned her about it.

[EdRed]

I cant say how Asuna would fare in the UW, but she showed a great mental fortitude when she was caged alone. It's not like she hasn't proven herself to be tough if needed.
It wouldn't really help the story if Kirito kept faltering constantly and it's not like him either. I didn't get the impression that Kirito was particularily content with staying in the UW as well.


Kirito says that he's still thinking about going to the U.S, not that he has decided. He also says that he really wants to see the U.S. VR. But he's also literally saying that he doesn't want to live without her. And he's quite afraid that she might say no to his proposition because of her own future plans. He doesn't say anything about whether he would go with or without her.



But really, we're looking at the same scene and are using it for two interpretations that could hardly differ more.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by EdRed

I cant say how Asuna would fare in the UW, but she showed a great mental fortitude when she was caged alone.

Because she was waiting for Kirito to save her. Take Kirito out of the equation and she might even kill herself. She said as much once in the LN. In fact in the web novel they mentioned something like that again at the end of Alicization. She can't live without him. It's a fact, and it shows she needs him way more than he needs her.

It wouldn't really help the story if Kirito kept faltering constantly and it's not like him either.

I don't know if it would help the story, but if he was shown to actually put Asuna before his goals for a change, or if she didn't make him the center of her damn life, that would certainly help make their relationship more balanced. As it is now, it feels a little one-sided to me.

I didn't get the impression that Kirito was particularily content with staying in the UW as well.

He was fine without her. Sometimes he was even enjoying himself.

[c933103]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

For me, it's pretty obvious it's meant as an unresolved love triangle ending. The last few paragraphs make it obvious, with both girls arguing over Kirito and he not making it clear who he is going out with.

What they were arguing in the end part is just an extension of LN vol.16 ch.19 sect.5's argument as they said. The most major change in the LN16, compare to WN, is addition of Sortiliena. Lines realted to Asuna and Alice in the section are basically unmodified, thus it would be in my opinion hard to say they are one way on WN but the other way in LN.

------------

btw, to other users here, things you guys arguing might be clearer if we focus on talking about romantic love.

[Sheepthar]

Hi...first time here xD

First of all, the "love triangle", actually i think that this didnt exist, Kirito has never do something or thought of Alice in a romantic way, the only thing we can say that he thought about her was her beauty and since all we have is the summaries and i dont think this made Kirito fall in love for Alice, also may we include the fact that the summaries are a little biased, since the author seems to be a huge Kirito-Alice shipper. Even in the Vol 16 of the LN are some minor changes in the translation and the summaries that makes a difference in this matter...for example in the summaries Alice implies that she have a relationship with Kirito and in the LN she says that he is her responsability, changes from a romantic POV to a Responsability or maybe protector POV. (It can be a mistake from the translator, but all we can do is wait). My last point here is that in the end of the Alicization arc, Kirito is a lot more worried for explain his womanizer crimes to Asuna that the incoming battle and the Alice´s rescue xD, even take his time to explain to Asuna and have lovey-dovey moments while are literally in a time-race.

Second, about the VR and Asuna. Indeed i think too that Kirito may be obsessed with the VR, but he also wants Asuna in his future and life, he says this a lot of times and since Asuna turns to be a little less obsessed with the VR too i dont think that this will be a problem. But talking seriusly Kirito is in deep love with Asuna and loves her just like the VR or even more, when he is talking with Asuna about go to the US, as EDred says, he is really afraid of go without Asuna, and we dont known if he is going to go without her, but he made pretty clear that he dont want to live without Asuna. In the end of Alicization, he doesnt tell Asuna about the aceleration rating, not because he dont want the stay with her, he doesnt say because he known that she could die if she stay, and they are both constantly putting their lives on risk for the safe of the other, but when he discover that Asuna stay with him he is also really happy and immidiatly overcome his depression for stay alone in UW, and in the end of the WN, we can say that all the plans that Kirito have for VR and UW includes Asuna, since the first or second thing that he does before back to UW with Alice is to call Asuna, and he says something about "their plans for make the people of RL and UW interact", so is clear that Kirito´s plans includes Asuna and since Asuna says that she would follow Kirito to the end of the world (and the fact that she stayed in UW for 200 years) i dont see why should be a problem all the VR thing.

About the obsession stuff, Asuna didnt expect to be rescue for Kirito in the ALO arc, she dont even known where Kirito is or if he is alive. she only knowns about him in the last part, when Sugou says that he Knowns Kazuto in the realworld, so she didnt try or commit suicide because she was hoping to be rescued for Kirito, and if we talk abou suicide, we only have to remember what happened in the fight against Heathcliff, when Kirito after watch Asuna die, the first thing he do is make Heathcliff kill him xD.

So...there is a difference between the Obsession and the romantic love between Asuna and Kirito, because first of all, Asuna doesnt have any plans for the future execpt to be with Kirito and not because she is obsessed, is because their plans are to have a family including Yui. She also knowns about the Kirito´s love for VR and doesnt bother her, because i m pretty sure that she feels the same about the VR (since she even consider her VR body has the same RL body). About Kirito, he always says that he doesnt want to live without Asuna and is afraid of a future without her, and we have to remember the fact that makes Kirito back to the VR is Asuna, his desire to rescue her (in the ALO LN he states that she is the only reason to back a VRworld after SAO), another fact and really important goal in the Kirito´s life is also Yui, he want her in the RL with Asuna, and yadda yadda yadda a lot of stuff like this.

Personal conclusion, dont misunderstand the "lovey-dovey" relationship between Asuna and Kirito (since the author really likes to exaggerate the loveydovey xD) with obsession.

I apologize for the long post and for my awfull english xD

[EdRed]

Originally Posted by Sheepthar

Lots of good stuff

Don't have much to add to this. I very much agree.

[KnightShade]

Originally Posted by EdRed

Don't have much to add to this. I very much agree.

same
10 chars

[BreadnButter]

Originally Posted by Sheepthar

...for example in the summaries Alice implies that she have a relationship with Kirito and in the LN she says that he is her responsability, changes from a romantic POV to a Responsability or maybe protector POV..

You mean this part?(below)

Originally Posted by Flere821

Asuna wants to see Kirito one more time before they go, but Alice told her without her permission Asuna is not allowed into the wagon; protecting Kirito is her responsibility. Asuna held back her anger, and shot back Alice should stop calling her (Asuna’s) Kirito by name. Both of them ‘hmph!’d and then headed off following Berculi.

LN chinese translation(from rkl):

Spoiler for Google-Translated Chinese Translations:

亚丝娜想在离开这里前再见一次桐人，不过就在她动身前，爱丽丝传来刺耳的话。「话说在前面，今后没有我的许 可不准进入那辆马车。保护桐人的安全是我的责任范围。」 气死我了。「……你才是，不要直呼我的桐人君的名字了……」 「你说什么！？」 「……不，没什么！」 哼，亚丝娜和爱丽丝同时别开了脸，往骑士长的背影追去。(basically exactly same text from the WN)

Asuna wanted goodbye before leaving here once Kazuto, but just before she left, Alice came the harsh words. "Words in front of the future without my permission not allowed to enter the carriage Protection Kazuto safety is my area of responsibility." I'm furious. Yasi娜安stroking take the emotional heart. "...... You're not to address him my name Tong ruler of ......" "What did you say!?" "...... no, no!" Well, Asuna and Alice while distinguished face, Knights go back a long chase.

Where do you get the romantic POV? The summaries look exactly the same as the LN and the WN.

P.S. I don't read chinese but I use google. Basically the point is the summaries sounds the same as the one in LN or WN, no mention of any 'romantic'.

[Sheepthar]

Originally Posted by BreadnButter

You mean this part?(below)

LN chinese translation(from rkl):

Spoiler for Google-Translated Chinese Translations:

亚丝娜想在离开这里前再见一次桐人，不过就在她动身前，爱丽丝传来刺耳的话。「话说在前面，今后没有我的许 可不准进入那辆马车。保护桐人的安全是我的责任范围。」 气死我了。「……你才是，不要直呼我的桐人君的名字了……」 「你说什么！？」 「……不，没什么！」 哼，亚丝娜和爱丽丝同时别开了脸，往骑士长的背影追去。(basically exactly same text from the WN)

Asuna wanted goodbye before leaving here once Kazuto, but just before she left, Alice came the harsh words. "Words in front of the future without my permission not allowed to enter the carriage Protection Kazuto safety is my area of responsibility." I'm furious. Yasi娜安stroking take the emotional heart. "...... You're not to address him my name Tong ruler of ......" "What did you say!?" "...... no, no!" Well, Asuna and Alice while distinguished face, Knights go back a long chase.

Where do you get the romantic POV? The summaries look exactly the same as the LN and the WN.

P.S. I don't read chinese but I use google. Basically the point is the summaries sounds the same as the one in LN or WN, no mention of any 'romantic'.

Noup, was after the first time Asuna saw Kirito in the wagon, when Alice engage Asuna in combat and she says something about take care of Kirito 24/7 i think.

[c933103]

Originally Posted by Sheepthar

Noup, was after the first time Asuna saw Kirito in the wagon, when Alice engage Asuna in combat and she says something about take care of Kirito 24/7 i think.

Please read comment section of https://www.reddit.com/r/swordartonl...ume_16_i_have/ , I think that should be cleared?

[BreadnButter]

Originally Posted by Sheepthar

Noup, was after the first time Asuna saw Kirito in the wagon, when Alice engage Asuna in combat and she says something about take care of Kirito 24/7 i think.

It did appear in the WN, just that the 24 hours part is taken out from the LN.
Edit:Oh I forgot. I think you confused the part Asuna fought with Alice and the 24/7 part. Alice said these only when she met with Asuna at the same wagon the second time, not during the fight.

Spoiler for WN:

「我……和他并肩作战了一整晚。然后，同住在一个屋檐下的半年间里，二十四小时形影不离地照顾着他。」

(Google-translated)
"I ...... and he fought all night and then, in the six months to live under one roof, the twenty-four hours inseparable to take care of him. "

Compared to LN(from rkl)

Spoiler for LN:

「我和他并肩战斗了一整晚。之后在同一屋檐下形影不离地照顾了他半年。」
(Google-translated)
"He and I fought side by side all night. After inseparable under the same roof to take care of him six months."

I don't think its fair to call Flere biased, as there is a difference between the WN and the LN on this case.

[EdRed]

I'm not really seeing the big difference honestly. Your explanation is similiar to the one qunow gives over at reddit:

Originally Posted by qunow

LN version is translated as:

We fought side by side for an entire night. After that, i stayed under the same roof with him, never leaving his side for a moment as i cared for him this half a year.


, then the web version's translation for the part is:

We fought side by side for an entire night. After that, i stayed under the same roof with him, never leaving his side for a moment as i cared for him 24 hours a day in this half a year.

The highlighting was done by me.

The only difference here are the 24 hours mentioned.

[Sheepthar]

Originally Posted by BreadnButter

It did appear in the WN, just that the 24 hours part is taken out from the LN.
Edit:Oh I forgot. I think you confused the part Asuna fought with Alice and the 24/7 part. Alice said these only when she met with Asuna at the same wagon the second time, not during the fight.

Spoiler for WN:

「我……和他并肩作战了一整晚。然后，同住在一个屋檐下的半年间里，二十四小时形影不离地照顾着他。」

(Google-translated)
"I ...... and he fought all night and then, in the six months to live under one roof, the twenty-four hours inseparable to take care of him. "

Compared to LN(from rkl)

Spoiler for LN:

「我和他并肩战斗了一整晚。之后在同一屋檐下形影不离地照顾了他半年。」
(Google-translated)
"He and I fought side by side all night. After inseparable under the same roof to take care of him six months."

I don't think its fair to call Flere biased, as there is a difference between the WN and the LN on this case.

Nononono.... when i say that the summaries may be a little biased i was not talking about the translation, it was about some parts when he introduce his own opinion between parentesis, if i m right specially in the part when Asuna arrives to UW and kill a bunch of A.I´s. The part of the text i quote may be a change between the LN and WN and i really dont care, but i was trying to say with this, is that little changes like those make the reader to create wrong ideas or opinions.

[BreadnButter]

Originally Posted by Flere821

Asuna saw the DT attack as she descended, and launched her attack. She felt a headache as she used that attack, as the feedback is hard on the STL. She knew she must have killed hundreds of the AIs Kirito worked hard for 2.5 years of his life to protect just then, but she didn’t care; if it’s for Kirito, there’s no crime she would not commit, no punishment she would not accept. (Flere821 note: Just like Alice)

Well, I can see that this opinion can be questionable though since I never saw Alice feeling the same.

Personally, I don't find his opinions getting in the way of translation. After all, he put his opinions in brackets only, not to the point of putting it in the summaries as well.