Macross FB7 Recap Movie (Discussion)

[Darthtabby]

Are your criticisms directed at Frontier as a whole (movies and TV series)? It seems like they are directed at both but the problems you list apply more to the movies than the TV series. Sheryl's first concert in the TV series is far less over the top than her first concert scene in the movies for instance.

Also while I worry about Sheryl becoming too much of a spotlight stealer I think a duet between her and Basara would be awesome. Fukuyama and May'n have done duets in real life, and Sheryl is supposed to be something of a Fire Bomber fan (didn't Grace discover young Sheryl's love of singing from listening to her singing a Fire Bomber song or something? There's a drama CD segment with a very young Sheryl singing Totsugeki! Love Heart...).

[sa547]

I still like to check this out; it'll be interesting to watch to see all them come together.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Darthtabby

Are your criticisms directed at Frontier as a whole (movies and TV series)? It seems like they are directed at both but the problems you list apply more to the movies than the TV series. Sheryl's first concert in the TV series is far less over the top than her first concert scene in the movies for instance.

I already didn't like the excessive special effects & theatrics of Sheryl's performance from the beginning of the series. The Movies only made it worse. Thus, I agree with you that Sheryl's concerts in the series is less over-the-top than the movies.

My gripe about the series & movies have some cringe-worthy lines is another matter .

Originally Posted by Darthtabby

Also while I worry about Sheryl becoming too much of a spotlight stealer I think a duet between her and Basara would be awesome. Fukuyama and May'n have done duets in real life, and Sheryl is supposed to be something of a Fire Bomber fan (didn't Grace discover young Sheryl's love of singing from listening to her singing a Fire Bomber song or something? There's a drama CD segment with a very young Sheryl singing Totsugeki! Love Heart...).

I'm basically okay with the collaboration of FB & Sheryl. What I was worrying is if the animators/makers decide to make the collaboration performance to be "ala Sheryl" complete with overkill attraction instead of focusing on the singing & band.

Oh yeah, I promised to a certain someone here to give more detail example of the lines that I consider cringe-worthy, right? But I don’t have that much free time. So, I'll go with the most obvious episode, the last one. Here goes:

Spoiler for Lines from the last episode (possible spoilers):

Brera (while blowing up Alto): Spread to the galaxy! (I cringed. In that condition, I’d rather said “F U, man!” to Alto)

Luca (while activating Judas system): Show me the power that once plunged Macross City into the depths of fear. (I cringed. Wow, he actually spoke to the software )

Ranka (to Sheryl): I was only able to fly because you were there for me, Sheryl-san! and so on.... (I cringed)

Alto (of course you know this one): Both of you are my wings! (I cringed)

Ranka (saying her catchphrase out loud): Everyone! Embrace each other! To the end of the Universe! (I cringed)

Grace: Is this the power of the song?! (typical losing antagonist )

(All encouraging Alto)
Ozma: Go Alto!
The female doctor (forgot her name): Our Future!
Luca: Our Hopes!
Brera: Humans are always lonely....
Alto (while blowing up Queen Vajra’s head): ....But, we’re able to love one another!
(I cringed all the way. They actually rival those super sentais in speech-timing )

All those lines are way too “poetic” to be said during a mega battle. Not to mention the manner of how they say it feels like a stage play. Plus, Sheryl is singing while dancing mercilessly and wear flashy clothes for the.... Vajras ? Isn’t they only need to hear her song/voice? That’s such a waste of Sheryl’s energy if you ask me (and silly too).

[Tak]

Well, I for one would have to respectively disagree with Obelisk ze Tormentor. Personally, I want the concert to be as flash as it.could.possibly.get.

- Tak

[LoveMeKags]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Spoiler for Lines from the last episode (possible spoilers):

Brera (while blowing up Alto): Spread to the galaxy! (I cringed. In that condition, I’d rather said “F U, man!” to Alto)

Luca (while activating Judas system): Show me the power that once plunged Macross City into the depths of fear. (I cringed. Wow, he actually spoke to the software )

Ranka (to Sheryl): I was only able to fly because you were there for me, Sheryl-san! and so on.... (I cringed)

Alto (of course you know this one): Both of you are my wings! (I cringed)

Ranka (saying her catchphrase out loud): Everyone! Embrace each other! To the end of the Universe! (I cringed)

Grace: Is this the power of the song?! (typical losing antagonist )

(All encouraging Alto)
Ozma: Go Alto!
The female doctor (forgot her name): Our Future!
Luca: Our Hopes!
Brera: Humans are always lonely....
Alto (while blowing up Queen Vajra’s head): ....But, we’re able to love one another!
(I cringed all the way. They actually rival those super sentais in speech-timing )

All those lines are way too “poetic” to be said during a mega battle. Not to mention the manner of how they say it feels like a stage play. Plus, Sheryl is singing while dancing mercilessly and wear flashy clothes for the.... Vajras ? Isn’t they only need to hear her song/voice? That’s such a waste of Sheryl’s energy if you ask me (and silly too).

And here I go with quite a bit to say about this subject given your examples (which are horrible, by the way): you do realize that any form of originality has been used already in the context of battles? Every form of speaking in this manner has already been used. Let's see, should they've gone with the tradition "here we go!" or "die!" even the "it's all thanks to you" lines? That would seem to flat and lose the interest of the fans easily. A show like that would instantly bore me. That is what grabbed me about Frontier: it wasn't like the traditional anime. It didn't repeat useless lines like that. Instead, they inserted poetic/symbolic lines to make the characters seem three-dimensional. That is the difference between two-dimensional writing and three-dimensional writing. If that seems like a Shakespeare rip-off then think of where he got the ideas: from actual humans. He ripped off others' personalities and traits to make his stories. Today's writing is no different. But Frontier, in no way, had themes even remotely similar to that of Shakespeare. Unless you're thinking that Cinderella is part of his works, which it isn't.

It appears that the person you most mention for the movies is Sheryl Nome's lines. Unless you dislike her, I'd give more examples in regards to the movies, because she isn't the only one with poetic lines. Alto and Ranka had some lines too, like his "I'll fly to the end of this battle" and her "wind to your wings" with Sheryl's response as "and song to the galaxy." But yes, Sheryl is poetic, but that comes from the fact that she has a French background, for she can read and speak the language as if a pro, so she is bound to have had some impressions in life that inspired her to speak in that context. Meanwhile, Alto was a kabuki actor, so he's had to speak lines like that his whole life. There is even a drama CD that starts with Alto speaking the lines to Romeo & Juliet (whilst playing Juliet). So he was not so far-fetched to speak lines like that. Ranka's poetic pieces most likely come from the fact she's been inspired by so many around her that she wants to express herself; and as she says "simple words are not enough." If you ask me, her most symbolic line is that she wishes for everyone to "embrace one another," because she wants to make peace in the galaxy using her songs.

If you wanna talk about poetic symbolism, you obviously haven't listened to their songs enough. Sheryl and Ranka's songs have enough poetic symbolism to make you fall over in agony. It is because they are expressing themselves. Everyone in this show did. It's what makes Frontier so popular. The characters seem realistic rather than futuristic. They are given a third-dimension. The show is all about symbolism. That is why no matter what happened in the romance, I loved the show, even though I dislike certain characters' personalities (more than one).

So, all in all, you're entitled to your own opinion, but everyone here will disagree with you on this matter, I guarantee it. Even I - the person who dislikes the ending of the romance most - will disagree that Frontier's lines were shitty and rip-offs.

--

On the concert part, I don't really understand your problem with it. After all, this futuristic show takes place 20-30 years after the end of SDF (DYRL), in which Lynn Minmei's concert in the movie was completely unrealistic as was the Flashback. However, Sharon Apple's was worse in this context, for she was a program acting as a human in her concerts, controlled by Myung. 7 was meant to be different, as Fire Bomber wasn't supposed to be about glamor, but then again, Kawamori was only the mecha designer, not the planner, and Basara wasn't supposed to be the "fancy show off with bright lights or a remake of Elvis." Frontier changed that world by storm. It combined elements of DYRL and Plus together. The stage performances were more epic and futuristic because the show is supposed to constantly change to a later date, thus technology should logically increase. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

But I agree with Darth on the fact that there already is a duet between Fukuyama and May'n out there and there is a drama CD of Grace discovering Sheryl singing Totsugeki Love Heart (which made me laugh in her chibi voice). So the possibility is very high, especially because May'n loved playing Sheryl. However, the one I mostly wonder about is Nakajima (Ranka). I do not doubt they won't do some form of a duet or perhaps have a band performance. That way, Ozma would combine his two favorite things: Fire Bomber and his sister, Ranka Lee. And Sheryl would be able to sing with a legend.

Now that would be a way to close the book of Frontier for good.


Then again, didn't they already say goodbye with SnT?

[magnuskn]

Yeah, sorry, but I don't feel that "cringe" at all. It sounds like you'd prefer Frontiers protagonists to be cussing like people in a Tarantino movie. That would not capture the feel of Macross at all.

[BetoJR]

Yeah, M7 is less cringe worthy than Frontier. Yeah. That's kinda... No.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

Yeah, M7 is less cringe worthy than Frontier. Yeah. That's kinda... No.

For me, it was quite the contrary...

- Tak

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Wow, there’s a long reply. So exciting.

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

And here I go with quite a bit to say about this subject given your examples (which are horrible, by the way): you do realize that any form of originality has been used already in the context of battles? Every form of speaking in this manner has already been used. Let's see, should they've gone with the tradition "here we go!" or "die!" even the "it's all thanks to you" lines? That would seem to flat and lose the interest of the fans easily. A show like that would instantly bore me. That is what grabbed me about Frontier: it wasn't like the traditional anime. It didn't repeat useless lines like that.

You didn’t get my point. I wasn’t talking about Frontier’s originality. I was talking about their lines being too fancy to be spouted in the middle of a battle, thus comes my cringe. Go check shows like Ghost in the Shell, Cowboy Bebop, Broken Blade, Patlabor, and the on-going Mul-Luv Alternative: Total Eclipse for examples. They are good without making their characters to spout fancy lines in the middle of the battles.

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Instead, they inserted poetic/symbolic lines to make the characters seem three-dimensional. That is the difference between two-dimensional writing and three-dimensional writing. If that seems like a Shakespeare rip-off then think of where he got the ideas: from actual humans. He ripped off others' personalities and traits to make his stories.

Symbolic/poetic lines do not make a character three-dimensional. Good script-writing does. Also, actual people don’t shout fancy lines while shooting their enemies in the middle of a battle. Go ask World War II veterans if you don’t believe me.

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

It appears that the person you most mention for the movies is Sheryl Nome's lines. Unless you dislike her, I'd give more examples in regards to the movies, because she isn't the only one with poetic lines. Alto and Ranka had some lines too, like his "I'll fly to the end of this battle" and her "wind to your wings" with Sheryl's response as "and song to the galaxy."

Dude, did you even read my previous post? I only mentioned ONE line from Sheryl. How can that make her “the most” to you? In fact, I mostly quoted Alto and Ranka.

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

But yes, Sheryl is poetic, but that comes from the fact that she has a French background, for she can read and speak the language as if a pro, so she is bound to have had some impressions in life that inspired her to speak in that context.

Wow, so all French people talk poetically? I’ll have to check that out! Nope, my native French teacher when I was in college did not talk poetically during casual conversation even in the most leisure of times (let alone during a battle).

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Meanwhile, Alto was a kabuki actor, so he's had to speak lines like that his whole life. There is even a drama CD that starts with Alto speaking the lines to Romeo & Juliet (whilst playing Juliet). So he was not so far-fetched to speak lines like that.

I have an uncle who’s a stage actor. When he was arguing with people, he doesn’t use “stage” language (let alone in the middle of a battle).

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Ranka's poetic pieces most likely come from the fact she's been inspired by so many around her that she wants to express herself; and as she says "simple words are not enough." If you ask me, her most symbolic line is that she wishes for everyone to "embrace one another," because she wants to make peace in the galaxy using her songs.

Since I don’t understand the mind of a traumatic young girl who’s able to communicate with space bugs, I’ll leave her case alone .

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

If you wanna talk about poetic symbolism, you obviously haven't listened to their songs enough. Sheryl and Ranka's songs have enough poetic symbolism to make you fall over in agony. It is because they are expressing themselves. Everyone in this show did. It's what makes Frontier so popular.

Song =/= talking. With songs, you can be as symbolic/poetic/hyperbolic as possible. Also, I do like some of their songs (Lion is my fav) but songs have nothing to do with casual conversation.

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

The characters seem realistic rather than futuristic. They are given a third-dimension.

Yeah .

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

So, all in all, you're entitled to your own opinion, but everyone here will disagree with you on this matter, I guarantee it.

LOL, since the first time I posted in this thread, never once I ask for others' agreement about my personal opinion.

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Even I - the person who dislikes the ending of the romance most - will disagree that Frontier's lines were shitty and rip-offs.

But I never said that Frontier’s lines were shitty and rip-offs. In fact, given the situation the character’s in, the aforementioned lines are too fancy to be uttered. Also, I meant those line almost like Shakespearean by nature. I didn’t mean them as Shakespeare’ s rejects or rip-offs.

--

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

On the concert part, I don't really understand your problem with it. After all, this futuristic show takes place 20-30 years after the end of SDF (DYRL), in which Lynn Minmei's concert in the movie was completely unrealistic as was the Flashback. However, Sharon Apple's was worse in this context, for she was a program acting as a human in her concerts, controlled by Myung. 7 was meant to be different, as Fire Bomber wasn't supposed to be about glamor, but then again, Kawamori was only the mecha designer, not the planner, and Basara wasn't supposed to be the "fancy show off with bright lights or a remake of Elvis." Frontier changed that world by storm. It combined elements of DYRL and Plus together. The stage performances were more epic and futuristic because the show is supposed to constantly change to a later date, thus technology should logically increase. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

It’s preference, dude. You don’t have to agree with me. Heck, you don’t even need to understand my taste, just like those who has different hobbies from you.

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

But I agree with Darth on the fact that there already is a duet between Fukuyama and May'n out there and there is a drama CD of Grace discovering Sheryl singing Totsugeki Love Heart (which made me laugh in her chibi voice). So the possibility is very high, especially because May'n loved playing Sheryl. However, the one I mostly wonder about is Nakajima (Ranka). I do not doubt they won't do some form of a duet or perhaps have a band performance. That way, Ozma would combine his two favorite things: Fire Bomber and his sister, Ranka Lee. And Sheryl would be able to sing with a legend. Now that would be a way to close the book of Frontier for good.

I agree with that too (exessive special effects notwithstanding).
.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Yeah, sorry, but I don't feel that "cringe" at all. It sounds like you'd prefer Frontiers protagonists to be cussing like people in a Tarantino movie.

You missed my point. It’s not about the cursing, but the situation they’re in (in the middle of a battle). Once again, try watch Ghost in the Shell or Cowboy Bebop, for reference of my point.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

That would not capture the feel of Macross at all.

I don’t remember Hikaru Ichijo ever spout many fancy lines in the middle of a battle in the original SDF Macross TV series.

Originally Posted by BetoJr

Yeah, M7 is less cringe worthy than Frontier. Yeah. That's kinda... No.

I never said that M7 is less cringe-worthy than Frontier. M7 is all-out silly, which I prefer .

Originally Posted by Tak

Well, I for one would have to respectively disagree with Obelisk ze Tormentor. Personally, I want the concert to be as flash as it.could.possibly.get.

- Tak

That's fair and square, Tak.

[Darthtabby]

@Obelisk

Some of your criticisms are legit, but they aren't things that bother me very much.

Also from my perspective Ranka's dialogue when she's trying to encourage Sheryl doesn't seem that out of place. Also that "Everyone! Embrace each other! To the ends of the universe!" is her equivalent to Basra and Sheryl's "Listen to my song!" so IMO that isn't very out of place either.

Also while I think it was mostly there just to make things more visually interesting for us viewers, there is a certain logic to Sheryl's use of stage outfits and lighting. The effectiveness of her singing against the Vajra is very dependent on how into it she is, and making use of the things that were familiar to her as an idol helps her get into her performance. (And it is a performance -one that she fully expects to be the last one of her life. She's going all out for it.)

[LoveMeKags]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

You didn’t get my point. I wasn’t talking about Frontier’s originality. I was talking about their lines being too fancy to be spouted in the middle of a battle, thus comes my cringe. Go check shows like Ghost in the Shell, Cowboy Bebop, Broken Blade, Patlabor, and the on-going Mul-Luv Alternative: Total Eclipse for examples. They are good without making their characters to spout fancy lines in the middle of the battles.

And you miss my point: that is part of what makes the show original. After all, why would fans want repeats of oldies in a current show. I can't count the number of people who detest the overuse of the ever so popular Star Trek in nowadays movies. Usual traditional battle cries and lines have been used so many times that it's dumb. Don't forget that Macross is a long series as a franchise. Instead of copying the same old dumb lines, they went for something more artistic. Be grateful they didn't copy any of those shows, because you would've hated that dearly.

By the way, don't get me started on how many lines in Cowboy Bebop that copy Super-Dimensional Fortress Macross. I don't think that show should even be included considering its themes and characters' personalities. That was the least likely show to have any symbolic means.

Symbolic/poetic lines do not make a character three-dimensional. Good script-writing does. Also, actual people don’t shout fancy lines while shooting their enemies in the middle of a battle. Go ask World War II veterans if you don’t believe me.

But you forget that script writing doesn't give them a background or personality. It is how the writer presents these characters that gives them three-dimensions. The characters of Frontier were presented well due to their different style of speaking.

Macross has been around for 25 years. Kawamori wanted something more original than "screaming and cursing at the enemy." He wanted to go for originality. So your complaint here goes more towards the creator who wanted to be different than all the rest out there. If you ask me, he's an inspiration in this matter.

Besides, Alto did enough screaming in the series and movies to make up for it (whether it be reclaiming Ranka or saving Sheryl).

Sorry, but your alone in this opinion.

Dude, did you even read my previous post? I only mentioned ONE line from Sheryl. How can that make her “the most” to you? In fact, I mostly quoted Alto and Ranka.

First, I'm a girl. Get that straight.

Second, for your post,

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Since I really don’t have time right now, how about some things that I remember from the top of my head. Umm... let’s see..., how about most of Sheryl’s statements about singing like ”I’d rather die than not singing on stage” that kinda talk. And what about Alto’s shounen-ish/poetic outburst when he fought the controlled vajras on the last episode? I may give some more specific addition later when I have the actual episodes.

That is from the movies, not the series.
My post,

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

It appears that the person you most mention for the movies is Sheryl Nome's lines.

Actually read my post before you rant and rave about things I never said.

I never once said television series or anything like that in that paragraph. I referred solely to the movies, since that line you spoke of is a direct quote from Sayonara no Tsubasa. Also, that so-called "poetic outburst" for Alto is also from the movies. I think you're getting screwed up in which universe is which.

Wow, so all French people talk poetically? I’ll have to check that out! Nope, my native French teacher when I was in college did not talk poetically during casual conversation even in the most leisure of times (let alone during a battle).

Sheryl's personality is also to be addressed. Singing is her life. To her, to lose it is to die. Why should that not be poetic? After all, if it is her way of thinking, who's to disagree with it? Because she has a French background, she is more poetic in how she states this, since it is her first language, and her language abilities are broader than Alto and Ranka. It doesn't necessarily mean that traditionally all French people would speak as such, but passionate ones do. Plus, Sheryl was never close to the battlefield like Alto or Michael, so inserting that is moot.

I have an uncle who’s a stage actor. When he was arguing with people, he doesn’t use “stage” language (let alone in the middle of a battle).

Alto grew up in a famous kabuki family where his father forced him to act against his will. That kind of stuff gets embedded into your brain with enough practice nonstop. Plus, it doesn't help that he's still acting. He's trying to play the role of a hero. Because he's trying to do this, he puts too much effort into his lines, trying to play the part. I think you should really re-check his bio because you obviously don't know these characters very well.

Since I don’t understand the mind of a traumatic young girl who’s able to communicate with space bugs, I’ll leave her case alone .

Ranka also liked to sing from episode one. She wanted to express herself from episode one. In episode three, she wanted to tell everyone she was there. She only knew how to express herself in song. As time progressed, her speech became poetic too because she wanted to express herself better. Who could blame her for wanting to be understood? It had nothing to do with trauma or "communicating with space bugs," but her pure desire to speak her mind. Plus, she had good inspiration with Alto, Sheryl, and Michael around.

Song =/= talking. With songs, you can be as symbolic/poetic/hyperbolic as possible. Also, I do like some of their songs (Lion is my fav) but songs have nothing to do with casual conversation.

I was simply mentioning that if you want to talk about fancy/poetic/cheesy lines, their songs are worse. And not all songs are poetic. I guess this is a matter of opinion but I personally prefer their songs over Utada Hikaru and various other artists who use a deep symbolism in their songs. It depends on the depth and what you'll take in. Personally, I cringe at a song like "Dearest" and "Bios" for Guilty Crown because of its poetic presentation. There is a limit even in music.

Yeah .

Well, considering it is a futuristic show where everyone is supposed to get smarter and connect more, it shows a spark of realism in it. Everyone wants to express themselves. The Freedom of Speech has returned, considering we - of the here and now - have all but lost it at this point. In a futuristic show, the author wanted to give you the feel that laws and characters had changed. He gave more symbolism to the characters.

I personally like these characters over other Macross'. And Hikaru doesn't even add up to half of the others (he can die).

LOL, since the first time I posted in this thread, never once I ask for others' agreement about my personal opinion.

Considering my first posts on this thread in 2011, we'll get along nicely, isn't that right Tak?

I would take my word of advice before if I were you. The others can tell you that difference of opinion can start fights here. Macross supporters never wave the white flag. Why even I haven't thrown away my shipping flag despite losing. So since you're new to certain parts of this universe, I would say watch the whole material before speaking of things you don't know.

I have watched every Macross universe, no matter how large or small. I thought SDF was boring but DYRL was surely a masterpiece. Plus was very interesting and the artwork was simply beautiful. 7 always bored me to death, even though I loved Basara, as it had a long~ run with no build up until suddenly everything ended, and I personally felt the songs were repeated too much, as were the performances. Zero was too short and didn't leave much impression beyond the CGI artwork. Frontier was the best development in the series, as the characters were more three-dimensional, even relatable at times, and the concerts were flashy and attractive, pulling your attention to the screen, as was the artwork and design for the mecha, and finally, it had awesome dogfights (although only few).

And so far, the only series you can mention is... 7 and Frontier. Which they do not compare to each other just based on the main characters chosen for the individual series'. The state in which both ships fell into was entirely different. The personalities of the characters were very different. The whole themes for each show was different.

Shoji Kawamori (the author and script writer for Super-Dimensional Fortress Macross, Do You Remember Love?, Plus, Zero, and Frontier) did not write anything in Macross 7! It is only obvious that there is a large difference in plot, script writing, and characters because he had no say in 7 whilst he was the main writer for Frontier. It is as simple as that.

But I never said that Frontier’s lines were shitty and rip-offs. In fact, given the situation the character’s in, the aforementioned lines are too fancy to be uttered. Also, I meant those line almost like Shakespearean by nature. I didn’t mean them as Shakespeare’ s rejects or rip-offs.

I didn't say you thought so, I was saying I don't think of them as such. I gave my opinion. My impression of your thoughts is that you dislike the lines because they appear to be/almost be rip-offs of Shakespeare based on your replies and mentioning such a name. After all, he is one of the oldest and most respected poets. If his works had been inserted into this series, it would've been an honor for him to meet Macross for the first time. But alas, that wasn't the case.

It’s preference, dude. You don’t have to agree with me. Heck, you don’t even need to understand my taste, just like those who has different hobbies from you.

Sadly, the whole show is against your opinion. Don't like it then you didn't have to watch it. It was always as simple as that. The next Macross is likely to be even worse in the concert area. Since they've begun to discover CGI works well for concerts, they will likely continue to push these "flashy" concerts. I'd quit now while I'm ahead if I were you. This is only a taste of what's to come.

You missed my point. It’s not about the cursing, but the situation they’re in (in the middle of a battle). Once again, try watch Ghost in the Shell or Cowboy Bebop, for reference of my point.

Sadly, Ghost in the Shell had many scenes in which the characters merely grunted or screamed at their enemies.

But no matter how I look at your replies to this, I see you leave out the fact that the situations of the shows are very different. For one, the enemies of Alto were mostly Vajra. How could they understand him if he screamed inconsistent trash? They don't speak any human language. However, Brera could understand human language. Alto expressed himself greatly - his anguish and frustrations - all things he didn't want to pin on his friends that meant so much to him. He was human in this manner, screaming it to the enemy instead.

I don’t remember Hikaru Ichijo ever spout many fancy lines in the middle of a battle in the original SDF Macross TV series.

...Hikaru is a horrible example to bring to the plate. Everyone here with the exception of a few lost respect for him long ago. He is the worst person to use as an example. He had no actual remarkable or memorable personality or lines throughout the series or movie. No one misses him. He had no charisma.

Alto has all of these things. If you didn't notice, Alto has three times more votes than Hikaru for favorite Macross characters. Note that.

I never said that M7 is less cringe-worthy than Frontier. M7 is all-out silly, which I prefer .

7 bored me to death. It had no build up to where it would end. The plot was completely lost along the way. There were 49 episodes and they crammed the ending of the plot into the last 6 when they had plenty of time to build you up to it. Instead, it became episodic and mediocre.

If you ask me, 7 was a cringe for me. I still can't believe I finished it. I almost gave up at episode 25. I forced myself to continue it just to finish off the Macross series.

Frontier was easy to catch my attention from episode one through twenty-five. They put in enough to keep you entertained whilst also flowing the story along. This is another way to tell the difference in writing regarding who wrote the scripts for both series. They differ greatly.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Darth

Some of your criticisms are legit, but they aren't things that bother me very much.

That’s mighty fine, Darth. Like I said, they’re just my personal preference .

Originally Posted by Darth

Also from my perspective Ranka's dialogue when she's trying to encourage Sheryl doesn't seem that out of place.

Aside from the lines, the major offender is the execution and how the dialogue delivered. I don’t know how to say it, but they’re too “stage-play-y”. Also, although Sheryl and Ranka have that much time to chat, Alto is still fighting a fierce battle out there and he still has the time to chit-chat that long?

Originally Posted by Darth

Also that "Everyone! Embrace each other! To the ends of the universe!" is her equivalent to Basra and Sheryl's "Listen to my song!" so IMO that isn't very out of place either.

I’m never fond of characters spouting catchphrases to begin with. Especially if it’s poetic (it reminds me of the recent Kamen Rider who spout catchphrases for ridiculous reason. On the other hand, I can accept Sheryl & Basara’s “Listen to my song!” when they’re about to sing since that’s pretty direct and more make sense.

Originally Posted by Darth

Also while I think it was mostly there just to make things more visually interesting for us viewers, there is a certain logic to Sheryl's use of stage outfits and lighting. The effectiveness of her singing against the Vajra is very dependent on how into it she is, and making use of the things that were familiar to her as an idol helps her get into her performance. (And it is a performance -one that she fully expects to be the last one of her life. She's going all out for it.).

Now that’s well-explained. Aside from the obvious “eye-candy” reason by the animators, your reply is satisfying.

Of course, all of those are just my personal opinion. Everybody else is free to think otherwise. Your preference is not wrong nor do mine. They’re just different.



@LoveMeKags
Dear girl, since most of your reply to me is your Opinion, I don’t feel the necessity to reply to most of them. Our opinion will never met since we prefer different things. However, to make things clear I’ll answer some of your questions to me.

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

That is from the movies, not the series.

Actually read my post before you rant and rave about things I never said.

I never once said television series or anything like that in that paragraph. I referred solely to the movies, since that line you spoke of is a direct quote from Sayonara no Tsubasa. Also, that so-called "poetic outburst" for Alto is also from the movies. I think you're getting screwed up in which universe is which.

Ah, sorry for the slip . That’s coz I consider my “detailed-examples” post in page 2 supposed to be a revision of my older posts on page one. Like I said in my first post, it comes from the top of my head and I don’t remember where the scene come from very well. Hence my more “detailed-example” post on page 2 and you did quote that one.

Why do I watched Frontier if don’t really like it?
First, I like the Macross franchise up until Macross Plus (but I’m not one of those fans who remember all the Valkyries’ code-number) so I have the urge to watch the new Macross series. Second, I get the anime for free. It was given by my friend when I was in college to accompany my boring days in the dorm. Lastly, I finished it just for the lulz coz I have nothing to do at that time.

Why Cowboy Bebop?
You missed my point again. I didn’t mention Bebop for it’s symbolic nature. I mention it coz the characters act naturally in the middle of a battle, which is less talking and more shooting. The characters there don’t talk during battle/shootings unless it’s really necessary.

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

Sadly, Ghost in the Shell had many scenes in which the characters merely grunted or screamed at their enemies.

And that’s exactly my point. You shouldn’t talk a lot during battle/shootings unless it’s for strategy. That’s a waste of energy

Do I have to check character bios aside from what I get from the actual show to say a line he’s/she’s spoken is cringe-worthy?
Nope.

Originally Posted by LoveMeKags

But you forget that script writing doesn't give them a background or personality. It is how the writer presents these characters that gives them three-dimensions. The characters of Frontier were presented well due to their different style of speaking.

So I guess some very compelling characters from, say, The Dark Knight and Little Miss Sunshine does not come from the well-written scripts at all? Hint: their various backgrounds actually comes from the script.

[creb]

I hate Basra.

But, boy oh boy, I'm all over any chance of seeing Mylene again.

[Ithekro]

Basra has the biggest fangirls in all the galaxy.

[C.A.]

There has been lots of interaction between the Macross series in SRW.

I don't like the interaction between Basara and Sheryl, it always ends up in an ego clash with Sheryl disliking Basara because he seems to be hogging the stage every time he sings.

But Basara's interaction with Minmay and Ranka is great.

In SRWZ2.2, your people along with Alto were trapped in a separate dimension, Ranka and Sheryl were terribly worried and couldn't concentrate on preparing for their concert. Basara then told them its useless to worry, instead they should concentrate on what they can and should do, which is sing.

Sheryl snapped back at Basara for being inconsiderate and stupid, but Ranka joined in with her song. And because of Ranka and Basara's voices being able to transcend space-time, the lost crew were able to follow their song and return to the normal universe.

Alto thanked Basara and for the first time acknowledged his passion, but Basara said it was Ranka's voice that reached him. This was when Sheryl dropped into jealousy and self pity.

But the best interaction was between Basara and Minmay in SRW Alpha3, which when they first met was in the finale of Macross 7, where Gepelnitch went berserk and drained everyone's Spiritia. It was Minmay's song that awoken Basara who then went on to stop Gepelnitch.

Basara and Minmay had great respect for each other's music and then collaborated in a song, GONG, sang by JAM Project. GONG then became the song that saved the galaxy in the ending.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by C.A.

There has been lots of interaction between the Macross series in SRW.
*snip*

Wow, that's a nice info, CA. I got some fun input without playing the games or googling it.

[LoveMeKags]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

@LoveMeKags
Dear girl, since most of your reply to me is your Opinion, I don’t feel the necessity to reply to most of them. Our opinion will never met since we prefer different things.

I agree.

Ah, sorry for the slip . That’s coz I consider my “detailed-examples” post in page 2 supposed to be a revision of my older posts on page one. Like I said in my first post, it comes from the top of my head and I don’t remember where the scene come from very well. Hence my more “detailed-example” post on page 2 and you did quote that one.

I'm just clarifying that I responded to your first post in which you only included examples for Sheryl Nome. However, even in your TV version, you did not include posts from Sheryl Nome, so I figured her movie self is the one you mostly had a problem with, since you didn't include any quotes from others in the movies.

Why do I watched Frontier if don’t really like it?
First, I like the Macross franchise up until Macross Plus (but I’m not one of those fans who remember all the Valkyries’ code-number) so I have the urge to watch the new Macross series. Second, I get the anime for free. It was given by my friend when I was in college to accompany my boring days in the dorm. Lastly, I finished it just for the lulz coz I have nothing to do at that time.

I felt the same about M7.

But you like M7; so to each their own.

Why Cowboy Bebop?
You missed my point again. I didn’t mention Bebop for it’s symbolic nature. I mention it coz the characters act naturally in the middle of a battle, which is less talking and more shooting. The characters there don’t talk during battle/shootings unless it’s really necessary.

I'll speak off the top of my head since I finished the series around 5 years ago. The characters had many moments in which speaking wasn't necessary. However, in the movie, there is quite a lot of speech during the fights that was unnecessary to the plot and characters. But throughout the series, there were quite a lot of moments in which Spike got a little too talky for his own good.

However, comparing it to Frontier doesn't work. The situations of the characters are different. Their personalities are very different. Plus, there are a lot of moments in which there was nothing but screaming and cursing - mainly from Alto, my prime example being the major battle in the first movie. I think your problem comes from confrontations of characters instead. The very first confrontation that had really "poetic" speech was episode twelve in which Alto faced off against Tehmzin (the rebel Zentradi). This is a war that's been going on for how many generations now, folks? Alto was dragged into this fight though he doesn't want to kill anyone, and he was dragged into this war by the desire to protect others. Naturally, he would be trying to reach peace with the enemy. However, he is not beyond the ability to get pissed off, as he's shown when Tehmzin mentions the word "blood." The second confrontation lasts throughout the rest of the show really: Alto vs. Brera. But whilst Alto has always detested Brera, he doesn't hate or desire to kill him. They have a thing in common: they both want the best for Ranka. They want peace. When two people like this line up, their personalities are bound to clash and arguments of this nature are bound to happen. But nonetheless, they are still trying to protect what they assume is right. So even though they are having disagreements verbally, they must fight for their beliefs.

The script writing for Frontier wasn't the horrible part and we've already discussed this. It was the time-frame for the whole show, shoving the final battle into an episode and a half, having to end it so quickly that you get whip-lash. The pacing of the show was its main problem.

But then again, M7 was worse...

And that’s exactly my point. You shouldn’t talk a lot during battle/shootings unless it’s for strategy. That’s a waste of energy

Macross is more known for its desire to create peace between aliens not massacre. Naturally the characters would not want to fight. Frontier's characters were so supposed to interact more. It was designed this way. If Alto and Brera had not interacted on the battlefield in the movies, Alto would not have considered Brera an ally, for he had obviously switched sides in the end (to Alto's eye). If Alto had not interacted with Tehnzim in the series, he would have been completely unaware of the reality of their situation, since that was before his time. Interaction between characters even on the battlefield is necessary for characters to understand concepts. Given the time limit to the series (whereas SDF had 36 episodes and M7 had 49 episodes) they only have 25 to complete the plot they started. That interaction was needed.

After all, the love triangle seemed to be the prime focus otherwise...

*snip*

If they weren't interesting characters, they wouldn't be so damn popular.

Originally Posted by C.A.

And because of Ranka and Basara's voices being able to transcend space-time, the lost crew were able to follow their song and return to the normal universe.

Alto thanked Basara and for the first time acknowledged his passion, but Basara said it was Ranka's voice that reached him.

And my first reaction to this is: I remember this scene and falling over from a nosebleed at Basara being an AR shipper in his context, making it sound like it was Ranka who brought Alto back from the dead (which I know it wasn't). But you putting it up is nice. So I add rep.

That aside, I am unsure about Sheryl still. However, I can picture Ranka doing it. She would enjoy singing with Basara, I'm sure. Since Ozma is a big fan, she is bound to know some of their songs. But Sheryl has always been Ranka's inspiration. It is unclear by the story (series and movies) if Ranka is a fan or not of Minmei. Singing her main songs is not the same as acknowledging her as a person you idolize. So the duet is still up in the air. I guess we'll just find out.

[karice67]

@Obelisk

If you're just going by the subs, may I just note that some of the translations for Frontier really were cringe-worthy? To date, I haven't actually seen a sub of any Frontier work where I haven't cringed at least once.

Granted, I agree with you about some of the dialogue ('you are both my wings' ), but most of it really isn't as cringe-worthy in Japanese as the subs suggest... The lines during the battle scenes in particular really needed more creative translations rather than some of the literal translations they got...

---

At any rate, it would be interesting to see what in the world they're doing with this FB7 film...

[Darthtabby]

This may not be quite the appropriate thread for it, but if you have time could you provide some examples of what you mean in one of the threads Karice? Nuances that get lost in translation can be interesting.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by karice67

@Obelisk

If you're just going by the subs, may I just note that some of the translations for Frontier really were cringe-worthy? To date, I haven't actually seen a sub of any Frontier work where I haven't cringed at least once.

*snip*

Ah, thanx for the info, karice. Yup, I only go by the English subs. I really have no idea that somethings are really lost in translation.

I also agree with Darth. Some example of faithful translation will be pretty enlightening.