Darker Than Black - Episode 12 Discussion / Poll

[Kamar]

Everything seems to indicate to me that Hei did something other than "wish for his powers back and fry Yin", and that's ignoring how much of a ridiculous downer ending it would be if he fried her and Antichrist shota still came about. The evidence just doesn't seem to support that interpretation at all.

-Hei was pretty clearly using some form of his electron-wizardry, not his typical barbecue-em' powers. And it really would seem OOC for him to look so accepting, even glad about the outcome the way he did right before.

-Why even bother with the two versions of Yin if they didn't matter and Hei was just gonna fry the hell out of her?

-Pointing to the myth as 'proof' that Yin died is pretty ridiculous, especially when in the same sentence you mention how it diverges from the myth by not having the other guy(s?) around.

-Again, Antichrist shota popping up seems to me to be pretty definitive evidence that Hei didn't just fry her for the greater good. Does anyone actually believe he would fry her if it were already too late for it to help anything?

[Leo_Otaku]

Originally Posted by Bordix

ugh, as usual these Dtb endings always leaves me completely mind raped and empty.

I don't know what the hell just happened... All I can remember in the end was Misaki's Boss suddenly posing like he's Rambo with a huge gun, that's all.

oh god I need some sleep.

Best summary ever you get cookies ^-^b

[physics223]

Originally Posted by Kamar

Everything seems to indicate to me that Hei did something other than "wish for his powers back and fry Yin", and that's ignoring how much of a ridiculous downer ending it would be if he fried her and Antichrist shota still came about. The evidence just doesn't seem to support that interpretation at all.

-Hei was pretty clearly using some form of his electron-wizardry, not his typical barbecue-em' powers. And it really would seem OOC for him to look so accepting, even glad about the outcome the way he did right before.

-Why even bother with the two versions of Yin if they didn't matter and Hei was just gonna fry the hell out of her?

-Pointing to the myth as 'proof' that Yin died is pretty ridiculous, especially when in the same sentence you mention how it diverges from the myth by not having the other guy(s?) around.

-Again, Antichrist shota popping up seems to me to be pretty definitive evidence that Hei didn't just fry her for the greater good. Does anyone actually believe he would fry her if it were already too late for it to help anything?

Yes. It was clear to me that he didn't kill Yin because an avatar (or Izanami) came out (the boy who looked just like her). Aside from it being extremely out of character, I don't think we got all that explication and elaboration for nothing.

[z3phyr.mp3]

Since I've been selectively skipping posts I don't know if this question has been answered or not. But is it safe to assume that big black tower inside Hell's gate, the one in the epilogue, was the new gate that just opened?

[Endrance]

I think this ending is one of those that leaves you confused about what happened and wanting more answers so that by the time the new season is out you have to see it

[blewin]

Originally Posted by slayne310

Here is what I think that happen at the end.

Hei got his power back because the meteor fragment was broken by Yin, which release his power back to him. I believe he change Yin to something else with his power without killing her. Hence the glowing lights like hells gate at end of season 1. Remember Hei has the power to change matters and probably more. The new Yin look alike is probably what they need to stop in the 3rd season if we get one.

yes, I believe that's it, else what's the point of having Hei there? He must have done something.

They said a wish requires a sacrifice. The question is what did Hei sacrifice?

oh, and I still don't get the light/dark Yin thing. Which Yin did Shion make a deal with to make the new world? What did dark Yin originally plan anyway!?

Another question: So Misaki and the new syndicate are left in the old world. Is that it?

Actually, I didn't get Shou's living in a newly copied world until I read the posts here. Because things are so confusing, I don't get that emotional impact of Shou's memory loss that I should have gotten. Compared to Amber's death back in S1, the emotional impact in S2 is a lottttt less. And that decreases the value of S2 (caused by other factors too).

*sigh* Another regret of BONES not making S2 as good as S1.

As to what I do like about this last episode.... I think the shining moment is July's smile in the aquarium!

Plus Misaki's new look.

[Myssa Rei]

Wow, I lose Net connection for a day, and look what happens.

Reading through the posts, I wonder why some people haven't jumped on the way Oreille described the new Earth: as an Ark. You know, the type where you put things in case things go to Hell in a handbasket?

Oh, and it looks like many people are still not reading the explanations that the few of us who didn't give a kneejerk 'OMG THIS SUXXORS!' reaction gave, or tried to give, with what little info we had.


Reference to the Original Myth:

Izanami-no-Mikoto and Izanagi-no-Mikoto, the twin deities and spouses, had one final child, Kagu-Tsuchi, a deity of fire whose flame killed his mother Izanami when he was born, thus introducing Death to the world. The parallel in Darker than Black ends at this point of the myth, as what comes afterwards is Izanagi going mad with grief and killing Kagu-Tsuchi.

Another being is supposed to have come into existence with him, Mizuhame, a deity of water and Kagu-Tsuchi's opposite, whose role was to pacify the fiery deity.


What is Clear:
- Another Earth was created by Shion though his powers, which is populated by copies of people from the original Earth. The memories of the copies were supplied via the ME network. The world is called an Ark by Oreille. The original meteor we saw at the start of the season is consumed to make the memories permanent for the copies.
- Suou and July no longer exist in the original Earth, and live new lives in New Earth, though they don't seem to have any lingering memories. Observant watchers will notice Mai from the first season (the girl contractor who went Moratorium for a while before gaining control of her fire powers) in Suou's class.
- The US invades Japan and takes control of the area around Hell's Gate.
- Misaki and her boss, Oreille and her Doll twins, and Mao form a new Syndicate to resist the US occupation.
- A child awakens inside Heaven's Gate (whom we just call at this point Kagutsuchi, after the myth of Izanagi and Izanami), with an ominous power. It seems like the mythical Kagu-Tsuchi, his birth heralds Death for the world.
- A new gate opens somewhere else.
- Hei is alive, as BK-201's star is shining brightly.
- Genma is killed by Hazuki.
- Though alluded to in Episode 25 of the first season, here we get confirmation that the Gate hastens Doll evolution (as in the case of July and Oreille's twins).


What is Implied:
- The US was behind the original Syndicate the whole time.
- August 7 is alive, and reveals that MI6 is going along with the USA's invasion of Japan. Then again, given the location in the middle of the Gate, it might just be July's inner voice telling him the opposite of what he wanted -- to find Suou.

What is Unclear:
- Yin's fate. In the original myth, Izanami dies giving birth to Kagu-Tsuchi. There's equal evidence at this point for Hei taking the Third Option, or Hei simply frying her.
- The location of the new Gate.

[karice67]

*agrees* Do you think we could make a (locked) sticky post for "READ ME before posting about episode 12?

(and edit: to Myssa Rei - apologies m(_ _ )m, was posting just as you were editing...)


Re: the memories of the clones

Originally Posted by Jin Kizuite

Why did Earth 2.0 fly away? Also they explained clones can't retain memories, so everyone there has meteorite cores?

Originally Posted by orion

No, everyone there doesn't have a core. In fact, they didn't retain all their memories. They are an alternate existence with Suou having a feeling that something's not quite right (like in Dark City). Suou isn't normal just like Dark City's protag. I'm betting she retained something about old Earth.

I know someone has explained this before, but I can't find that post. Refer to ~8 mins and ~21:50 - notice the huge glassy thing that was there in the first scene and not in the last? That is a large meteorite core piece. Basically, the clones on the new Earth can all retain their memories there because that meteorite core is part of that Earth. (Don't ask me how it's incorporated, because that's obviously not explained. It's possible that Izanami had something to do with that.) It seems like they've also been created "as is", as if the new Earth had been existing beforehand, so whatever memories were collected in the supercomputer are retained by them.


Re: the supposed 'new' Gate

Originally Posted by z3phyr.mp3

Since I've been selectively skipping posts I don't know if this question has been answered or not. But is it safe to assume that big black tower inside Hell's gate, the one in the epilogue, was the new gate that just opened?

I've said it before: I think the translation in the sub might be off. Rather than a new Gate appearing, I think they meant that Hell's Gate opened again.

Now, if there is a new Gate, why do you suppose they didn't show/tell us clearly what/where it was? I mean, the fact that there are only two Gates means that a third one APPEARING should be important, right? (And if a third season or some new materials come out that confirm the '3rd gate', I'll bite my tongue or something.)

[Kallen4life]

who's 2 voices were that with the super-computer in the end ?

seemed familiar

[Myssa Rei]

Originally Posted by Kallen4life

seemed familiar

At around 22:53? The twin dolls of Oreille.

Originally Posted by karice67

*agrees* Do you think we could make a (locked) sticky post for "READ ME before posting about episode 12?

(and edit: to Myssa Rei - apologies m(_ _ )m, was posting just as you were editing...)

No worries, still adding stuff. I just hope PEOPLE WOULD READ IT, instead of, y'know, going 'OMG! THIS SUX!!!111'.

[Equidistant]

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

Wow, I lose Net connection for a day, and look what happens.

Reading through the posts, I wonder why some people haven't jumped on the way Oreille described the new Earth: as an Ark. You know, the type where you put things in case things go to Hell in a handbasket?

Oh, and it looks like many people are still not reading the explanations that the few of us who didn't give a kneejerk 'OMG THIS SUXXORS!' reaction gave, or tried to give, with what little info we had.


Reference to the Original Myth:

Izanami-no-Mikoto and Izanagi-no-Mikoto, the twin deities and spouses, had one final child, Kagu-Tsuchi, a deity of fire whose flame killed his mother Izanami when he was born, thus introducing Death to the world. The parallel in Darker than Black ends at this point of the myth, as what comes afterwards is Izanagi going mad with grief and killing Kagu-Tsuchi.

Another being is supposed to have come into existence with him, Mizuhame, a deity of water and Kagu-Tsuchi's opposite, whose role was to pacify the fiery deity.

What is Unclear:
- Yin's fate. In the original myth, Izanami dies giving birth to Kagu-Tsuchi. There's equal evidence at this point for Hei taking the Third Option, or Hei simply frying her.

It's hard to say how much of the myth you can apply to the show considering that Shion(Izanagi) dies in the end while at that point Yin(Inazami) is still alive. You can't really use the myth to say Yin died, and you can't really use the story to say she's alive. I'm hoping that the final OVA episode ends by speeding through the 2nd season and concluding that scene with Hei and Yin since it's really the only thing still left up in the air.

[Myssa Rei]

Originally Posted by CantQuiteGuess

It's hard to say how much of the myth you can apply to the show considering that Shion(Izanagi) dies in the end while at that point Yin(Inazami) is still alive. You can't really use the myth to say Yin died, and you can't really use the story to say she's alive. I'm hoping that the final OVA episode ends by speeding through the 2nd season and concluding that scene with Hei and Yin since it's really the only thing still left up in the air.

Well, I never did say it was a perfect parallel. Hence why I used the original myth as simply a reference.

Kind of how some people use Oedipus Rex in parallel with Hamlet.

[Kanon]

@Myssa Rei: I don't see Mai anywhere in Suou's class. There's a girl that looks a bit like her but it's definitely not her IMO. It would be weird for her to there anyway, as she died two years ago. I think Shion only copied the people still alive on earth at the end of episode 10 (when the "moon" appeared). We can Suou passing by the Black guy and the Old lady from Hei's old apartment's complex in season 1 though.

[Myssa Rei]

Originally Posted by Kanon_

*snips*

I dunno, looks awfully close to me. I guess it's one of those things you can file under 'Not too Sure', but you have to admit that the guy holding on to July reminds a viewer TERRIBLY of November 11, who's also been dead for just as long as Mai. I mean, there is the implication that the dolls have been capturing peoples memories without their knowledge through the ME Network for a while now.

[Ice Block]

First of all, this was a great ep. I give it a 10 for the awesomely fast-paced Hei vs Hazuki fight at the start. I was originally going to post in this thread last night, but how people highlighted New Earth as an Ark reignited the Halo lore fan in me. Anyway...

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

- Did Hei kill Yin? It's plausible, given how Hei actually said he'd do so in the same episode, plus it seems like a way to release Yin from her 'torment'. Also, I'm not too sure he's in the right mindset to take another Third Option like he did at the end of Season 1.

Near the end there, they were already inside Neutral Space. (Only one Yin is present in this scene, strangely, hence I thought it was Amber making a comeback at first [no thanks to KeyHole].) From the past season, we see that this is only possible with Hei's (Bai's) power when amplified with the meteor fragment (happened to Nick too¹). Notice that the sky of this Neutral Space is different from the False Sky that's currently over Old Earth. I can also say that the sky over this region is quite similar to the sky over the shot of Hei carrying Yin at the end.

The act itself was too flashy to be a simple high-ampere current transfer. As others have said, he must have altered her molecular structure. For what reason? Perhaps...

1. to fuse together Light and Dark Yin.
2. to seal her observer spirit.
3. to reverse the doll's evolution.

Thus, I can say that he incapacitated Yin while doing any of the above. For how long will it last? Permanent? Anybody's guess. Either way, IMO, we won't be seeing either of them anymore in future lore as they are trapped in Neutral Space (which I believe is the big tower-like think that's inside the current Hell's Gate). This ending actually provides pretty good closure for both of them -- no more running as the Syndicate has been completely dissolved. Never mind the fact that they're trapped in Neutral Space, or whatever is happening to the world outside.

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

- What role with Earth 2 play in the future? Probably little, really, as it's mentioned to be an Ark, possibly as a backup just in case everything on the original Earth literally goes to Hell.

Originally Posted by orion

And since Suou and the others were transported from old to new Earth, it's not impregnable anymore.

The Ark is created to preserve species and to reseed when the Flood has passed. Looking back at Amber's words in S1Ep25, we can say that a great Flood is expected to come soon, and this is heralded by the changes within dolls and the contractors starting to act on emotion². With soon, I of course mean within the next 100 to 1000 years . The problem here is how will it reseed? Perhaps that is left for the New Earth's population to figure out (once they have figured out their origins, etc).

Another problem is: how Suou + July supposedly got cut->pasted onto the New Earth, in contrast with the copy->paste that happened to everyone and everything else (with Shion's usual defects being the absence of the gates, resulting in a relatively peaceful society). This does not make sense, as there is no way to physically transfer them between two worlds, specially that they were both with Hei and Yin in the Neutral Space (unless of course, the Neutral Space itself serves as a portal between the New and the Old Earth's dimensions³). This leads me to believe that they were never cut->pasted, and the Suou and July we see there are Shion's copies like the rest of the population. About the deja vu? Everyone on New Earth gets them from time to time, but they just shrug it off. Then it will all make sense to them come the big revelation, Endless Eight style .

Or, it could just be Shion's gift to Suou, simple as that. Aw, how touching.

Originally Posted by physics223

Contrast that with Black Yin's collar. It's not Black Yin.

It's supposed to be quite obvious even without the collar thing: Light Yin's hair is pale white while Dark Yin's is bluish white.

Originally Posted by Jin Kizuite

Why was Augest 7 alive? He should of just stayed dead being an episodic boss that died when he showed up.

Because he's a real magician. It's what they do best, the grand event in their magic shows. Genma supposedly smashed his face to prevent proper identification. I doubt they had genetic records of MI6 agents to properly identify the corpse, so it could just have been some random that got facesmashed.

All in all, this ending provided appropriate closure for our characters -- hopefully more background info regarding Yin's past situation will be revealed as advertised in the OVAs. The plot may still continue, but it's pretty hard to make Darker Than Black without our Chinese Electric Batman. I can see them making a prequel and/or a Heaven's War run though (Amber mentioned that they fought Heaven's War many times in S1Ep25, though I don't know how accurate the sub is).

And I love the irony on how Misaki and Oreille's group is now referred to as the Syndicate.

[orion]

Actually, I think the collar bit is prob a mistake, like someone didn't color it in. You need to take into account the background that Yin is in also imo. The spirits are tightly swirled behind Yin for Black Yin which is what's happening for the one who says "Kill me." Black Yin was the one who was talking the most and uttered the "It's not too late" line.

[Nightengale]

Originally Posted by orion

Actually, I think the collar bit is prob a mistake, like someone didn't color it in. You need to take into account the background that Yin is in also imo. The spirits are tightly swirled behind Yin for Black Yin which is what's happening for the one who says "Kill me." Black Yin was the one who was talking the most and uttered the "It's not too late" line.

Whoever didn't color around 20+ frames needs to get fired. stat.

Also, the way I saw it, when Yin spoke, Black Yin also spoke the same with synonymous movement. It'd make sense seeing as they're still supposed to be interlinked, and killing Yin's soul would also eradicate Izanami.

[Ice Block]

vs
(click to enlarge) Hint: Look at the hair.
Quite clear right? They were completing each others' sentence(s), somewhat like Oreille's twin dolls.

[-Sho-]

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

Wow, I lose Net connection for a day, and look what happens.

Reading through the posts, I wonder why some people haven't jumped on the way Oreille described the new Earth: as an Ark. You know, the type where you put things in case things go to Hell in a handbasket?

Oh, and it looks like many people are still not reading the explanations that the few of us who didn't give a kneejerk 'OMG THIS SUXXORS!' reaction gave, or tried to give, with what little info we had.


Reference to the Original Myth:

Izanami-no-Mikoto and Izanagi-no-Mikoto, the twin deities and spouses, had one final child, Kagu-Tsuchi, a deity of fire whose flame killed his mother Izanami when he was born, thus introducing Death to the world. The parallel in Darker than Black ends at this point of the myth, as what comes afterwards is Izanagi going mad with grief and killing Kagu-Tsuchi.

Another being is supposed to have come into existence with him, Mizuhame, a deity of water and Kagu-Tsuchi's opposite, whose role was to pacify the fiery deity.


What is Clear:
- Another Earth was created by Shion though his powers, which is populated by copies of people from the original Earth. The memories of the copies were supplied via the ME network. The world is called an Ark by Oreille. The original meteor we saw at the start of the season is consumed to make the memories permanent for the copies.
- Suou and July no longer exist in the original Earth, and live new lives in New Earth, though they don't seem to have any lingering memories. Observant watchers will notice Mai from the first season (the girl contractor who went Moratorium for a while before gaining control of her fire powers) in Suou's class.
- The US invades Japan and takes control of the area around Hell's Gate.
- Misaki and her boss, Oreille and her Doll twins, and Mao form a new Syndicate to resist the US occupation.
- A child awakens inside Heaven's Gate (whom we just call at this point Kagutsuchi, after the myth of Izanagi and Izanami), with an ominous power. It seems like the mythical Kagu-Tsuchi, his birth heralds Death for the world.
- A new gate opens somewhere else.
- Hei is alive, as BK-201's star is shining brightly.
- Genma is killed by Hazuki.
- Though alluded to in Episode 25 of the first season, here we get confirmation that the Gate hastens Doll evolution (as in the case of July and Oreille's twins).


What is Implied:
- The US was behind the original Syndicate the whole time.
- August 7 is alive, and reveals that MI6 is going along with the USA's invasion of Japan. Then again, given the location in the middle of the Gate, it might just be July's inner voice telling him the opposite of what he wanted -- to find Suou.

What is Unclear:
- Yin's fate. In the original myth, Izanami dies giving birth to Kagu-Tsuchi. There's equal evidence at this point for Hei taking the Third Option, or Hei simply frying her.
- The location of the new Gate.

People read this , it might answer your questions .
Thanks for your explanations .
I think because all happened so fast that's we were confused
Damn thoses US invaders . Kagutsuchi will kill them .

[Myssa Rei]

A little disclaimer: there's no given name to the being born within Hell's Gate. Kagutsuchi is just a placeholder name we're using (to keep with the mythological references ahaha) until BONES gives his real name, as much as Shion is Izanagi and Yin is Izanami. It kind of fits though.