Nanoha - StrikerS - Episode 17 Discussion / Poll

[Nightengale]

Hostile = Anything obstructing them from obtaining the Relic.

[An Hero in Disguise]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

It basically means he DOESN'T CARE.

His Priority has been the lost logia then, above the lives of people in the city, because they aren't important.

We've already brought up this point when I first came up with this idea of Doc's goals. He cares but not to the point he's going to give up in case some innocent little girl stands between him and his goal.

By building weapons.

How would you oppose TSAB without weapons? (sorry for bringing CG up again but I hate Suzaku and want him dead ASAP)

Thats not true, his current actions support those records of him.

And even if he does do good in his past, does that mean he could be forgiven just like that?

There's little known about the time he supposedly committed his first crime. It could matter a lot.

Would you be talking like that if Doc wins and makes the majority of people turn to his side? Only those with power can forgive.

[Mow Yun]

Originally Posted by Adr 00

Hostile or not they are still humans.

Ps.i hope Erio would do something extreme in secret to increase his power.

We already got that with Teana early on in the season, though, which would make it feel redudndant : /

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Nightengale

Hostile = Anything obstructing them from obtaining the Relic.

Wich means that even if a harmless 5-year-old is holding a relic, they would be wiped out and the relic taken. Lovely.

[Guppy]

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

We've already brought up this point when I first came up with this idea of Doc's goals. He cares but not to the point he's going to give up in case some innocent little girl stands between him and his goal.

He's shown little enough sign of that so far. Sure, Scaglietti boasts about his humanitarianism, but his own attitude to the products of his research - and his willingness to cause further destruction after his mission objectives were already accomplished - contradict his own words.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

We've already brought up this point when I first came up with this idea of Doc's goals. He cares but not to the point he's going to give up in case some innocent little girl stands between him and his goal.

I'll throw it back at you, PROVE IT.

Prove to me that he cares, I've done all the examples that he don't, show me one action that prove he cares.

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

How would you oppose TSAB without weapons? (sorry for bringing CG up again but I hate Suzaku and want him dead ASAP)

And destroying a stable government system that has done no great wrong to it's people is how mankind would evolve?

Back to the stone age?

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

There's little known about the time he supposedly committed his first crime. It could matter a lot.

Yeah, tell that to the judge.

"I killed a man, but it's okay because I used to be a doctor for 20 years and had saves hundreds of lives..."

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

Would you be talking like that if Doc wins and makes the majority of people turn to his side? Only those with power can forgive.

I don't see why Jail would have the people's support, what has he done for them?

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Guppy

If he actually has a beneficial goal, then he could state those benefits more clearly. "They're holding back progress!" isn't much of an argument.

Then what is a good argument to you? The un-necessary retardation of scientific progress IS in itself a major crime by denying future generations the benefits of the technology progress will bring.

Uh huh. So would you trust someone who couldn't even articulate the cause they were willing to start a war over?

Be fair. We only saw a speech one minute long. He actually did go over all the main points. He explains why he's doing this, shows a fraction of the potential his technology might bring, and puts his hand out. He currently built a weapon, but it is easy as dirt to see how easily making over A mages might bring some benefits to society. That's about all anyone can do in a one-minute speech - speak his introduction.

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

I'll throw it back at you, PROVE IT.

Prove to me that he cares, I've done all the examples that he don't, show me one action that prove he cares.

The fact that we couldn't verify a single death except maybe for Ginga's mom is a clue. A few small things also point to it. 10 set his cannon in a way so that it broke the wall but nobody inside was killed. 6 could probably have used a lot less gas to achieve effective concentrations (and thus he can gas a whole lot more area) had Scarlietti chosen a lethal chemical agent rather than sleeping gas. Ms. Lightsaber Wielder neutralized her target Zafira and Shamal, but did not seriously finish them off or the like

The one time I could see killing intent was when 10 set her Heavy Barrel to Physical Destruction mode and targetted the helicopter. But considering Vivio's supposed value, well, I'd forgive him.

Further, I don't understand your obsession with deaths. If we assume (as we have to to have this discussion) that Scarlietti is really an idealist with his own sense of objectives, and we assume that those objectives (to match Scarlietti's viewpoint) will bring immense good to society, then the lives of a few individuals is honestly not a killer objection.

Besides, TSAB is the enemy army as far as he's concerned. If you compute the mathematics that way, Scarlietti was REALLY NICE.

And destroying a stable government system that has done no great wrong to it's people is how mankind would evolve?

1) You are only guessing it is stable from TSAB propaganda.
2) Stable is not the same as a good government. Monarchies have been pretty "stable" for centuries as a system. Doesn't mean we aren't happy when they change to Democracy, even if a few heads are lost.

[Nightengale]

Originally Posted by Guppy

He's shown little enough sign of that so far. Sure, he boasts about his humanitarianism, but his own attitude to the products of his research, and his willingness to cause further destruction after achieving his own mission objectives, contradict his own words.

Well, let's look at a different point of view. The viewpoint of his research products towards him instead. Doesn't look all that bad, unless he's programmed them that way or brainwashed them. Lutecia doesn't mind him (( even though he most likely sold her away to buyers )) and the Numbers...well... Uno seems to like him at least.

Further destruction afte mission objectives? His objective is to layeth the smackdown on GC/RF6 with as little casualty as humanly possible, and clearly, during the speech, all Drones were already non-aggressive, since they were just flying around doing nothing while TSAB evacuates.

Because if he was really serious, Sein + Otto + Quattro + AMF should've been more than enough to kill Hayate, Carim, Regius and everyone in that room.

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

And destroying a stable government system that has done no great wrong to it's people is how mankind would evolve?

Back to the stone age?

There was absolutely no indication that he wants to destroy TSAB. If he wanted to, he wouldn't had offered his namecard and business propositions to TSAB/anyone watching, and Regius/Hayate/Shamal/Zafira/etc would be dead about now. He destroyed the symbol, but he purposely left the people behind that symbol alive, and that shows genocide and bloody revolution isn't his main desire.

[Guppy]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Then what is a good argument to you? The un-necessary retardation of scientific progress IS in itself a major crime by denying future generations the benefits of the technology progress will bring.

Who decides what's unnecessary?

Does every scientist who can't pass his ethics board get to launch an armed rebellion?

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Be fair. We only saw a speech one minute long. He actually did go over all the main points. He explains why he's doing this, shows a fraction of the potential his technology might bring, and puts his hand out. He currently built a weapon, but it is easy as dirt to see how easily making over A mages might bring some benefits to society. That's about all anyone can do in a one-minute speech - speak his introduction.

His readiness to use that potential for death and destruction doesn't exactly suggest that he's a responsible caretaker of power. If you're going to start with an introduction like that, I think it'll take more than a one-minute speech to turn things around after that.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Then what is a good argument to you? The un-necessary retardation of scientific progress IS in itself a major crime by denying future generations the benefits of the technology progress will bring.

Let's say everyone can do research without being hold back. What would stop people from getting the wrong kind of research? Neural gasses, nuklear weapons, that sort of stuff. It's illegal by law, it's used to kill people, but hey, everyone could research what they wanted, right?

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Be fair. We only saw a speech one minute long. He actually did go over all the main points. He explains why he's doing this, shows a fraction of the potential his technology might bring, and puts his hand out. He currently built a weapon, but it is easy as dirt to see how easily making over A mages might bring some benefits to society. That's about all anyone can do in a one-minute speech - speak his introduction.

Ad that's just the point, he's only build weapons! Fate's speech in the heli shows why the mass building of weapons was outlawed. What's to stop someone with not so good intentions from building his own army of over-A-ranked mages?

[An Hero in Disguise]

Originally Posted by Guppy

If he actually has a beneficial goal, then he could state those benefits more clearly. "They're holding back progress!" isn't much of an argument.

Uh huh. So would you trust someone who couldn't even articulate the cause they were willing to start a war over?

I don't think anything I've seen so far suggests that he should be allowed the freedom of action to demonstrate what he has in mind.

Bottom line: if you're going to violently overturn the status quo, you'd better have a damned good reason. If Scaglietti has one, he's done a terrible job of communicating it. Under those circumstances, I can't see how that adds up to a reason for supporting him.

I wasn't the one writing his speech. My point is that his words MAY be true. There's no way to say for sure until we see the series' finale.

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Go look at the manga, go watch the first season. The leaders of those worlds intentionally use that lost logia, and got themselves blown up.

For the sake of 'Scientific achievements', you are willing to risk an entire planet?

Who were those leaders? Were those administrated worlds? Anyway that simply means they weren't careful enough. TSAB can build "space stations" hanging between dimensions - why conduct some dangerous research on a heavily populated planet?

If it's not clearly stated, then WHY are you so eager to believe in him when he has long held a record that proves otherwise?

I was just stating a scenario.

But in that case are you going to wait till someone dies then? SO are you the type that has to have reality smack you in the face before you wake up? DO you really need people to start dying before you wonder that maybe this isn't the right thing to do?

Here? Simply because nobody else does

Even when people start dying that may be not enough to convince me this isn't the right thing to do.

Originally Posted by Keroko

Yes.

Then our points of view are different.

Oh really?

Spoiler for Hostile targets?:

A bunch of archeologists are hostile targets now? Interesting...

They probably obstructed the access to the Relic, that's it.

Originally Posted by Keroko

Wich means that even if a harmless 5-year-old is holding a relic, they would be wiped out and the relic taken. Lovely.

Yes, an obstacle is an obstacle, whtever it is.

Originally Posted by Guppy

He's shown little enough sign of that so far. Sure, Scaglietti boasts about his humanitarianism, but his own attitude to the products of his research - and his willingness to cause further destruction after his mission objectives were already accomplished - contradict his own words.

Said destruction was one of those objectives. He's nice enough to provide the possibility to evacuate personnel.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Then what is a good argument to you? The un-necessary retardation of scientific progress IS in itself a major crime by denying future generations the benefits of the technology progress will bring.

Science is a VERY BIG field, what could he be doing for the good of the people, that he CAN'T TELL them?

WHY can you trust such a man?!

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

Be fair. We only saw a speech one minute long. He actually did go over all the main points. He explains why he's doing this, shows a fraction of the potential his technology might bring, and puts his hand out. He currently built a weapon, but it is easy as dirt to see how easily making over A mages might bring some benefits to society. That's about all anyone can do in a one-minute speech - speak his introduction.

A one minute speech, to explain how many minutes of violence and destruction?

Do you think the men and women under siege would just shrug it off?

"Our lives were in danger because you want to prove a point?!"

[Guppy]

Originally Posted by Nightengale

Well, let's look at a different point of view. The viewpoint of his research products towards him instead. Doesn't look all that bad, unless he's programmed them that way or brainwashed them. Lutecia doesn't mind him (( even though he most likely sold her away to buyers )) and the Numbers...well... Uno seems to like him at least.

I was referring to Fate and Elio. The others - it's possible that he's a nice guy in private, but it's also possible that he created them that way.

Further destruction afte mission objectives? His objective is to layeth the smackdown on GC/RF6 with as little casualty as humanly possible, and clearly, during the speech, all Drones were already non-aggressive, since they were just flying around doing nothing while TSAB evacuates.

He'd already rendered RF6's base thoroughly inoperative. If he wanted to level it just to make sure, with everyone incapacitated inside, then that's fine... but bragging about how humanitarian he was being at the same time was rather rich.

[Guppy]

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

I wasn't the one writing his speech. My point is that his words MAY be true. There's no way to say for sure until we see the series' finale.

True. But in the meantime, it's hardly a reason to reserve judgement. We all call it as we see it. If they give us more information later, then fine, re-assess things then.

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

Said destruction was one of those objectives. He's nice enough to provide the possibility to evacuate personnel.

Hardly "nice," in the case of RF6's base - all that amounted to was phoning in a 10-second bomb warning.

Mind you, if he's serious about this campaign of his, then he probably should wipe out as much opposition as possible - but preferably leaving out the self-congratulation about what a peace-loving guy he really is.

[Nightengale]

Originally Posted by Keroko

And that's just the point, he's only build weapons! Fate's speech in the heli shows why the mass building of weapons was outlawed. What's to stop someone with not so good intentions from building his own army of over-A-ranked mages?

Well, Project F isn't exactly a weapon project...

But, he is offering his illegal technological expertise to the highest bidder. Unless he has hidden evil plans with Relic/Material which we still know jack about, he seems to be pretty business-like in how he deals with his technological variety.

Basically, if TSAB stops their crock-minds, and made a deal with him, things may you know...turn for the better, considering how understaffed things are.

Kinda like Rurouni Kenshin's post-Kyoto arc aftermath for the Jyuuken.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

Who were those leaders? Were those administrated worlds? Anyway that simply means they weren't careful enough. TSAB can build "space stations" hanging between dimensions - why conduct some dangerous research on a heavily populated planet?

I don't believe this, "Weren't careful enough" ? Why not just DON'T do it in the first place, that's the most safest by far.

Why not just build a station? Because it ain't free. And the lives of the researchers there can't be bought.

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

Here? Simply because nobody else does

Even when people start dying that may be not enough to convince me this isn't the right thing to do.

Enough said.

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

They probably obstructed the access to the Relic, that's it.

Yes, an obstacle is an obstacle, whtever it is.

Once again, enough said.

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

Said destruction was one of those objectives. He's nice enough to provide the possibility to evacuate personnel.

Here's an idea, DON'T attack them. For what reason does he need RF6 out of the way other than to further his own greed?

[asaqe]

Originally Posted by Ultima_Rasengan05

awww, well it was only clips of highlights in this episode, so I wouldn't know how Vice's past was shown...oh wells, it was just a hunch anyways.

But Subaru vs. Nouve rematch would be good.
of course, if Ginga turns evil, then its Subaru vs. Ginga...I wouldn't be surprise if they both destroy each other and Ginga gaining her memory back again after all of that...that would be an epic ending to that fight, but we would lose two great characters in the process.

Well I will waiting when in ep 18-19 we see Ginga naked in a glass jar. Who can forget about that?

[Guppy]

Originally Posted by Nightengale

Basically, if TSAB stops their crock-minds, and made a deal with him, things may you know...turn for the better, considering how understaffed things are.

Maybe they should have bought him off... but the question is, how long would he stay bought? I doubt the TSAB would give him unlimited rein to perform his experiments, so sooner or later things would probably still come to a head...

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Nightengale

Basically, if TSAB stops their crock-minds, and made a deal with him, things may you know...turn for the better, considering how understaffed things are.

No way, not after what he pulled.

Maybe before the attack, but after? No government body would work with the very man that had attacked them without warning or reasons.

It's like paying terrorist to share their toys and secrets after bombing a military base.

EDIT:

Somebody take over for me...I got school tomorrow....

[An Hero in Disguise]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

I'll throw it back at you, PROVE IT.

Prove to me that he cares, I've done all the examples that he don't, show me one action that prove he cares.

He successfully avoided any deaths during all the known events his weapons were involved in.

Also there was a statement here that Doc didn't control the Drones and let them go on rampage: first - it still never caused any casualties among innocents; second - in Ep.17 it seemed like he had control over the Drones whennecessary after all.

And destroying a stable government system that has done no great wrong to it's people is how mankind would evolve?

Back to the stone age?

Why do you think he wants to destroy it completely? Seemed to me he was more eager to turn the authorities to his side.

Yeah, tell that to the judge.

"I killed a man, but it's okay because I used to be a doctor for 20 years and had saves hundreds of lives..."

How did you come up with this? I didn't mean anything like that, but rather the circumstances that could turn him into criminal.

I don't see why Jail would have the people's support, what has he done for them?

It's an imaginary scenario to show that there will be no necessity for someone to forgive his crimes in case he emerges victorious.

Originally Posted by Keroko

Let's say everyone can do research without being hold back. What would stop people from getting the wrong kind of research? Neural gasses, nuklear weapons, that sort of stuff. It's illegal by law, it's used to kill people, but hey, everyone could research what they wanted, right?

OMG, yes, of course, yes. Nothing should hold the progress back. Who do you think is going to judge what kind of research is allowed or not? Nuclear weapons is only one side of a medal called nuclear power for example. And so on.

Ad that's just the point, he's only build weapons! Fate's speech in the heli shows why the mass building of weapons was outlawed. What's to stop someone with not so good intentions from building his own army of over-A-ranked mages?

You sound like it's as easy as making a wooden pole to go and hit peoples' heads with it. If somebody with not so good intentions has enough resources to create a nuclear bomb for example it's not the bomb's inventor's fault, OMG.