(L) Tokyo Ghoul

[Solace]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

That's why it's usually a very bad idea to read source material before watching a show: It often destroys your ability to approach any story with an open mind.

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Students are generally advised not to watch the performance of a play before reading the original source because doing so would usually fix a certain interpretation of the material in their minds.

Um, what?

The bottom line remains the same: You've got to be able to separate your views of any interpretation of a story. Master that ability first, before you try to compare one interpretation with another. You must first be able accept that there are any number of valid interpretations of a story, before you attempt a critique. Otherwise, you'd just end up making a lot of pointless comparisons that matter only to you, and not necessarily to other people.

The essential idea is that there's no such thing as "one best interpretation". Any number of interpretations can contend. And indeed, the more you have to consider, the richer your experience of the story.

Of course there's no such thing as a "definitive work". You're just stating the obvious here, and completely missing (or evading) what I'm talking about.

It's fully possible to look at each work as their own thing while also comparing them. I do it, others can too. It's just critical and analytical thinking. I've already stated clearly that people who are only watching the anime aren't missing out on the plot. That doesn't mean I can't question the value of the changes made from the original. It also doesn't mean I expect everyone to agree with me.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by Solace

That doesn't mean I can't question the value of the changes made from the original. It also doesn't mean I expect everyone to agree with me.

And you're stating what I see to be a weakness in thread moderation.

What's the point of telling me about the changes from the original, when the only reference I have at the moment is the anime? And to make matters worse, such comparisons usually come down to the equivalent of: "Forget the movie. The book was better."

Yup, that's really helpful to my understanding of the movie, thanks.

By all means, go ahead with anime versus manga comparisons. But I'm questioning why it needs to be done in a thread for the anime rather than the manga. If posters can't observe the discipline of separating the two while making their analyses, I'd rather that they don't, as more often than not, they'd inadvertently give away important plot points and spoil the enjoyment for others.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Solace

I realize there are some who only watch or read _____ and ignore everything else, and while people are free to do that, I feel that's a shame.

And going back to your original objection, since that's what you claim I avoided or misunderstood...

where in my post did I claim that fans should either just watch the anime or read the manga?

My exact words, which you helpfully quoted, are: "Students are generally advised not to watch the performance of a play before reading the original source."


There's a difference between saying:

1) Arrrrgh, the anime is ruined!!! Why did they make those changes? The manga was so much better!

and

2) Hmm, the anime made a lot of changes. I like the manga much better, but let's see how the changes work for the anime.



When I insist that people should judge an anime adaptation on its own merits, I speak from the perspective of Point 2.

I'm not at all saying you shouldn't read the manga source, or that you shouldn't compare. But I am saying that if you're going to compare, be careful to avoid confusing storytelling for manga, with storytelling for animation. They are two different mediums with different strengths and weaknesses, and you simply wouldn't do either medium any justice by comparing them directly.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

And you're stating what I see to be a weakness in thread moderation.

What's the point of telling me about the changes from the original, when the only reference I have at the moment is the anime? And to make matters worse, such comparisons usually come down to the equivalent of: "Forget the movie. The book was better."

Yup, that's really helpful to my understanding of the movie, thanks.

And who says I'm talking to you? This isn't the "anime only viewer section". It's open to anyone who wants to discuss anime, and that includes people who want make comparisons as long as they refrain from spoilers.

By all means, go ahead with anime versus manga comparisons. But I'm questioning why it needs to be done in a thread for the anime rather than the manga.

Because someone is inconvenienced no matter what thread we tell them to discuss in.

If posters can't observe the discipline of separating the two while making their analyses, I'd rather that they don't, as more often than not, they'd inadvertently give away important plot points and spoil the enjoyment for others.

That's not a call you or I can make. All we can do is prepare ourselves for the unexpected (spoilers), and all I (or any staff member) can do is moderate the consequences.

EDIT:

And going back to your original objection, since that's what you claim I avoided or misunderstood...

where in my post did I claim that fans should either just watch the anime or read the manga?

You're opinions are directly rooted in the fact that you are primarily an anime only viewer. This isn't the first time you've mentioned that or expressed these kinds of opinions.

"I'm an anime only viewer, don't taint my experience with your comments about other material" is a clear sign of someone who desires a walled garden of community discussion with people who are also only anime viewers. It's a viewpoint that often seeks to push out anyone who is interested in the anime who might already be exposed to at least some material outside of what has aired.

My exact words, which you helpfully quoted, are: "Students are generally advised not to watch the performance of a play before reading the original source."

Yes, I can read. On one hand, you claimed that it's a bad idea to read the source material before watching an adaptation because it can create a closed mind (bias, basically). In itself this isn't exactly untrue, but you're basically saying "watch the adaptation before reading the source material" as if that approach is any different: you're still biased by what you've already been exposed to.

This is why it conflicts with what you claim teachers tell students. Any good teacher will understand that you cannot remove bias, you can only mitigate it. You do this by teaching thinking skills: the ability to analyze something, approach it critically, and apply what you've previously learned to it.

In any language literature class, a teacher should be using various versions of the same material as lessons for students to compare/contrast so that they can learn to look at a part as well as the sum of all parts. No teacher would dare say "This version of Romeo & Juliet is inferior/superior to this version". They would use the differences to force the students to think about things both subjectively and objectively. The point is to get them to consider things they had previously not been able or open to see.

There's a difference between saying:

1) Arrrrgh, the anime is ruined!!! Why did they make those changes? The manga was so much better!

and

2) Hmm, the anime made a lot of changes. I like the manga much better, but let's see how the changes work for the anime.



When I insist that people should judge an anime adaptation on its own merits, I speak from the perspective of Point 2.

There's also the third option: 1 & 2. People who believe 1, but stick with 2 to see how it plays out. No one perspective is correct, because it's merely opinion, just more or less interesting to read by others. I've seen plenty of "Manga/novel was better!" people who have come to accept and enjoy the anime they initially wrote off as inferior. I'm one of them. Most recently, I changed my impressions of the Knights of Sidonia anime. It's pretty good.

I'm not at all saying you shouldn't read the manga source, or that you shouldn't compare. But I am saying that if you're going to compare, be careful to avoid confusing storytelling for manga, with storytelling for animation. They are two different mediums with different strengths and weaknesses, and you simply wouldn't do either medium any justice by comparing them directly.

I think most people do an acceptable job of that. Like a lot of things, it's easier to notice the vocal unhappy minority than the silent but contemplative majority.

Anyway, I think we've derailed this topic enough. If you want to continue this, feel free to make a new topic or we can talk through PM.

[Hazou]

Am I the only person having trouble understanding the tone of this anime? I'm laughing at inappropriate moments. Because it's so damn hammy and cheesy to the core.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by Hazou

Am I the only person having trouble understanding the tone of this anime? I'm laughing at inappropriate moments. Because it's so damn hammy and cheesy to the core.

You're not the first person, I think, to feel that the script and acting were a tad over-the-top. I get the same feeling too, but I'm perhaps not as affected by it as you are, because I've got used to what appears to be a norm for Japanese programmes. By that, I don't just mean anime but also J-drama and Japanese game shows. Especially game shows.

There seems to be a tendency for the Japanese to "over act". And this can be especially jarring in TV drama, with real-life actors behaving and speaking as though they were starring in an anime.

Tokyo Ghoul is tame by comparison, especially for its genre.

[MK-95-]

As a huge fan of TG, it sets my heart ablaze to know that the anime is finally up & running. I hope we at least get to see chapter 75 animated. I so want to hear dat SFX.

[ookamigirl]

#3

Spoiler for plot:

Kaneki learning at his new job.
Now even the government is starting to move.
Things will become more intense for ghouls.
New characters made an appearance, nice.
That kid sure has a lot to get used to and none of it is easy.
Toka seems to be having an even harder time but she deals well.
Playing teacher was Hinami was kinda sweet ^^
A little bit of normal in all the ghoulness.
Good episode with not much action.
More of a base layer episode.

[Mr Nr]

Well this was more of a breather episode then the previous two but I like it. Introducing to Hinami the young ghoul girl, Uta a ghoul mask maker, Renji a ghoul, Kureo and Koutarou both investigators or as the ghouls says 'Doves'. And of course towards the end we were introduce to a new character not yet named but he certainly has an air of uppity towards him I think (well just his introduction though). Whilst there was a lot of characters introduce, it never felt rush instead it felt natural. Animation is once again solid. I do like Kureo and the voice actor does a good of him. Yes there is still censor but by now that's to be expected. Just think if there's a lot of black screen it's really gruesome. I understand the censoring given what's right and what's not in Japan and also the TV Station also might be more strict (they could also be the ones that did the inverted colors last week not the anime studio). It really all depends on what's being shown, and given the gruesome psychological level of Tokyo Ghoul it sadly has to get censor. Also they may be changing from the manga from what I heard but keep in mind this a adaptation. Thus meaning that they will change in order to not only fit the length (which still has not yet be announced but I'm willing to bet split cours) but also change what's important for the anime and what's not. I feel like if anyone changes even a slight from the manga it's the end of the world. But that's enough of that. Other then that this still has solid directing and strong writing as always. I'm very excited to see where this goes (hopefully with less censor and more inverted colors if they have to have either).

[Horse]

So far, so good. Whatever dip in quality I saw last week isn't visible here. Although Kaneki was looking super... well... moe, lol.

I quite liked this ED as well and Takahiro Sakurai makes everything (even) better.

[R.LocK]

Clever work. I'd like to have some scenes have more build-up in Blu-Ray, but the work's solid.

[hamazura]

the pace is so damn fast, how many chapter in this episode alone?

[R.LocK]

About five chapters and a half with anime-only material. Just about the same rate as previous episodes.

[Hazou]

Originally Posted by hamazura

the pace is so damn fast, how many chapter in this episode alone?

That's my problem. I was hoping for a Deadman Wonderlan esque or Psycho Pass.

A much slower episode.

So for Episode 1 for Tokyo Ghouls I would have liked:

-Begin the way they did with Rize and the guy
-Establish characters Hide and Kaneki
-Kaneki and Rize on a date, after the friends did some stuff, go to school, etc.
-The Climax/To be Continued would have been Rize attacking Kaneki

Episode 2 I would have liked:

-Start where it ended Rize, attacking Kaneki, then have them die
-A more Kaneki in the hospital establish Hide a little more
-Transplant
-His struggle for humanity

I just feel like they want me to connect with Kaneki and Hide and they did nothing to establish an emotional baseline for these characters. I mean the last 2 minutes of episode 1 was powerful stuff. But it would have meant more if they slowed this anime the dafudge down.

[Horse]

Doesn't feel fast to me at all. v( '')v

[Hazou]

Originally Posted by Horse

Doesn't feel fast to me at all. v( '')v

It feels fast because they didn't establish anything with me. They just establish ideas. They don't establish characters, story, etc.

Like Nishi or something like that. He only had a few minutes of screen time in both episodes and then suddenly that exciting thing happened. And I was like, wait what....

[R.LocK]

^Which is why I complained about second episode.

This one is the type I like, though.

[blakstealth]

Pretty enjoyable episode. Getting more of the Ghoul characters and their purposes for the story and their own personalities is pretty cool. So, is Yamori the Jason from the beginning of the first episode? I wonder the purpose of that thing he lost is...probably to crush some Ghoul bones maybe.

[Kaoru Chujo]

That episode just made me nervous. Have they introduced the young girl just to have her killed? Nice work by the director and writer to get me so worried.

It's an interesting feeling to be sympathizing with ghouls. The cafe-owner seems like a good guy.

The young girl (Hinami) is played by Morohoshi Sumire, a 15-year-old on the direct route to stardom: she was the jellyfish in Kuragehime, Arisu in OniAi, and stars as Ichigo in Aikatsu.

EDIT: I've updated the characters/seiyuus page to include the characters played by her, Miyano Mamoru, and Ohkawa Tohru.

[Fellen]

As a manga reader the changes made and rushed pacing didn't bother me as much this episode as they did during episode 2, the changes were definitely handled better this episode so i hope if it's gonna keep making changes it will be more like this.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Horse

Doesn't feel fast to me at all. v( '')v

Same here. In fact, it would have been bad for all this exposition to last more than one episode. We learned plenty of things about Ghouls and their world this week, but it never felt like they were glossing over everything. I got plenty of times to assimilate all this new information.