Nanoha Franchise General Discussion Thread

[Demi.]

I'm not arguing where it happened, only that it happened. If it happened in the series then I guess my memory didn't fail me afterall.

[Sunder the Gold]

Originally Posted by Demi.

This is what I have a problem with. All these baseless assumptions while absolute refusal to believe any other possibility.

I've considered other possibilities, and rejected them as inconsequential, or accepted them as secondary motivations.

In fact, you've SEEN me consider them. Or would, if you were reading and remembering what I post.

Right, because Yuuno saving the day when it has no baring on the NanoFate dynamic is more hurtful to those fans than Erio saving Fate bridal style...And if you don't think fans would see Erio as a threat, think again.

Not Erio, Verossa. The guy who stopped Uno from setting that base to self-destruct. Erio didn't do that.

I'd totally forgotten that Erio ever showed up there. I have no idea how he got there, in fact.

So no, I'm not talking about Yuuno carrying Fate bridal style. I'm talking about Yuuno infiltrating the base, taking Uno by surprise, and Binding the Number before she enters a destruct code. If the mind-reading bullshit is absolutely necessary, have it be a skill that Yuuno learned from all of his studies as the Chief Librarian of the Infinite Archives.

What does Arf even have to do with the NanoFate dynamic?

It necessitates NanoArf time, because there's no way that Arf won't try to attach herself to Nanoha to remain close to Fate.

As Fate's familiar, Arf is something like a daughter. She's certainly a dependent, more so than a daughter would be, since Fate is literally the source of her life.

When you marry someone, you're supposed to accept their kids, too. You couldn't expect to have a relationship with Hayate (or any of the Wolkenritter) without being forced to build relationships with the rest of the Yagami family. Arf is no different.

You can't do a proper HayateAnyone relationship without having to spend time on AnyoneVita/Signum/Zafira/Shamal. You can't do a proper FateAnyone relationship without having to spend time on an AnyoneArf relationship.

Is Fate going to have kinky sex with her familiar while Nanoha is away?

Oh geez, why the hell did this even occur to you? It's more mysterious than you reading Verossa and coming up with Erio. It has NOTHING to do with anything.

In-fact, what does Teana being saved have anything to do with their relationship at all?

Nothing! Why do you mention it?

I'm getting the vibe that you think any of these characters on-screen at all is a malicious threat to the NanoFate shippers. It makes no logical sense.

I agree! So why is it coming up?

Triple R said that there was no room for Yuuno and Arf in StrikerS's COMBAT SCENES. I showed you how the season could have used these two established characters just as well -- or better -- than the various shallow and undeveloped new characters that Tsuzuki threw into the mix.

WHY did you read any of that as having anything to do with romantic relationships?

Someone's not a Vice fan, I see.

You don't see well at all, going by ALL of the comments you have made to me thus far.

I'm totally a Vice fan. I think he's a great addition to the setting; a good look at one of those "normal mages" we never get to see because of the Godling Mages who make up most of the named cast.

Is it just easier for you to label my feelings towards him as "dislike" rather than accept that my opinions on him are much more complex than that?

He's like that staff-fighting scene in the movie. On its own, it's great; I like to see that sort of thing. But that doesn't mean I'm convinced that either of them belong where they were placed.

Didn't you read ANY of my post about the Bayformer movie?

Having one good character I already liked needlessly replaced with another character I like is not necessary a welcome thing. Getting ham added to my turkey sandwich (or having the turkey replaced with ham despite my order) is not generally a welcome experience.

Again, how does any of this have relevance to your point? As long as none of the aforementioned characters mingle with Nanoha or Fate it should be fine, shouldn't it?

Again, COMBAT SCENES! Did you even LOOK at which of Triple R's points I quoted? It was the one about combat.

Finally, one of the aforementioned meets up one that shall not be named. Okay, if you want to exclusively believe that's why this scene never came up, then power to you.

First, please explain exactly which characters you're talking about. I can guess, but I'd like to know for certain.

Secondly, please provide YOUR reasons why these scenes (multiple, not singular) never came up. Fate and Arf training Caro and Friedliche in one scene, and Yuuno teaching all of the Forwards in another, and Yuuno teaching Caro specifically in a possible third.

I'm leaning towards the latter point, because none of your suggestions even remotely hinted at "romantic teasing."

Because most of them were about COMBAT SCENES.

True, but that takes effort as compared to a character(s) that has already been tried and true interesting, and you know Tsuzuki !=effort

Honestly, I fail to see how Verossa and Shache are more interesting than Yuuno or Arf. Certainly, they didn't get enough development to seem more interesting, which suggests that Tsuzuki didn't find them interesting.

Vice was apparently interesting enough to the writers, as they developed him enough to make him interesting to US.

[Sunder the Gold]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Let me be clear here... yes, I know there are things they could do with Yuuno and Arf to develop them. But after A's, there wasn't anything lingering that they could have addressed. I, for one, would have loved it to see them still in action in StrikerS. But a need is different than a want. Some people haven't figured that out yet (not talking about you).

So you're not saying that Nanoha and Fate had any developmental "needs" after A's, either. You're saying that no one had any "needs".

Although, if that's the case, why mention it in the first place?

Well, the only major thing would have been to develop Nanoha and Yuuno romantically, but I think by that point, Tsuzuki realized the Fate fanatics would have never stood for that, so putting Yuuno on a bus was the only thing he could do, and then decided to just never address anything about Nanoha romantically at all. He doesn't really want to do two women, so subtext is all it is ever going to get to.

He didn't need to develop them romantically; he could continue to tease us. As Demi pointed out, the YuNano fans got a bone tossed to us with Yuuno's cameo appearance half-way through the series.

It's possible that Tsuzuki just couldn't figure out how to keep Yuuno as an active member of the cast while balancing the teasing. Or Tsuki just didn't like Yuuno enough in the first place, or simply grew bored with him, and wanted to explore other characters.

Just because we are motivated enough to find ways to make Yuuno interesting and useful doesn't mean that Tsuzuki is similarly motivated.

I don't think Yuuno could have replaced Vice, since Yuuno is a barrier mage and not a sniper, meaning he wouldn't have that link with Teana.

Yuuno doesn't need to be a sniper. Characters in this franchise perform last minute saves all of the time without sniping, especially when they can fly and teleport. Vice used sniping because he's a sniper who can't fly.

I also pointed out the ways in which Yuuno could sympathize with Teana's situation. Recall his pathetic shooting magic skills. He could help Teana feel more secure with her illusionary spells, just as he contributes with his unique levels of expertise in all non-shooting magic.

On second thought, it might have made a nice development angle if he had injured someone when he was first learning shooting magic, and had made a vow long ago to never use it again.

That would also be cool.

All the things you mentioned are good angles that could have been used, although I don't see Yuuno as a helicopter pilot.

And I don't see why he would need to use a helicopter when he can teleport people. AMF fields don't cover wide areas, they only surround the Gadgets. Even when there are LOTS of Gadgets, the AMF only stretches so far outside of their masses; and you don't WANT to teleport into the middle of your enemies where they can kill-box you with crossfire.

The helicopter couldn't land anyone closer to the action than a teleport, either.

I always thought Suzuka could have replaced Shari

Feasible.

and Arisa could have replaced Alto.

She's, like... filthy rich back on Earth, and she's set to inherit a LOT of influence and responsibility as the new CEO of her parents' company.

You think she would run away from all of that to be a virtual NOBODY on some other planet?

Nanoha and Fate were nobodies back on Earth, with similarly stellar careers waiting for them on Midchilda. It would make as much sense as them hanging up their Devices and staying on Earth.

[Demi.]

You first replied to Kaijo saying you agreed that certain characters were shafted because of NanoFate. Are you telling me all these points are not related to that? If you're giving examples to how they could have been added in without hurting the NanoFate dynamic at all, then wouldn't that prove Kaijos point wrong? Not to mention make it a point to which you disagreed upon.

Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold

Not Erio, Verossa. The guy who stopped Uno from setting that base to self-destruct. Erio didn't do that.

I'd totally forgotten that Erio ever showed up there. I have no idea how he got there, in fact.

So no, I'm not talking about Yuuno carrying Fate bridal style. I'm talking about Yuuno infiltrating the base, taking Uno by surprise, and Binding the Number before she enters a destruct code. If the mind-reading bullshit is absolutely necessary, have it be a skill that Yuuno learned from all of his studies as the Chief Librarian of the Infinite Archives.

You're the one who is missing the point. If Erio carrying Fate bridal style is of no consequence to Tsuzuki's keeping the NanoFate dynamic booming, then how on earth is replacing Verosa with Yuno? The former is clearly more hurtful to these NanoFate fanatics as you guys so love to label them. While your suggestion means nothing to them in the grand scheme of things.

It necessitates NanoArf time, because there's no way that Arf won't try to attach herself to Nanoha to remain close to Fate.

As Fate's familiar, Arf is something like a daughter. She's certainly a dependent, more so than a daughter would be, since Fate is literally the source of her life.

To me, this has a similar relation to why the Wolkenritter are not often seen with Hayate in StrikerS. They're both now emotionally and physically independent. They're free to do their own thing. Fate's contract with Arf was basically wishing for Arfs happiness.

When you marry someone, you're supposed to accept their kids, too. You couldn't expect to have a relationship with Hayate (or any of the Wolkenritter) without being forced to build relationships with the rest of the Yagami family. Arf is no different.

I wasn't aware that Nanoha and Fate were married?

You can't do a proper HayateAnyone relationship without having to spend time on AnyoneVita/Signum/Zafira/Shamal. You can't do a proper FateAnyone relationship without having to spend time on an AnyoneArf relationship.

Yes, you can. You don't need to be aquainted with every person in someones life to have a relationship with that person. Heck, you don't even have to like some people in that persons life in order to have a relationship with them.

Oh geez, why the hell did this even occur to you? It's more mysterious than you reading Verossa and coming up with Erio. It has NOTHING to do with anything.

It does, because unless both Nanoha and Fate are present at the same time, letting the characters you mentioned have screen time with Nanoha or Fate (individually) does nothing to affect the NanoFate dynamic. Only when both Fate and Nanoha are together would they become an unneeded third wheel.

Nothing! Why do you mention it?

You're losing me here...

I'm totally a Vice fan. I think he's a great addition to the setting; a good look at one of those "normal mages" we never get to see because of the Godling Mages who make up most of the named cast.

You sure want to ditch a lot of his scenes for that to be the case.

Having one good character I already liked needlessly replaced with another character I like is not necessary a welcome thing. Getting ham added to my turkey sandwich (or having the turkey replaced with ham despite my order) is not generally a welcome experience.

He wasn't replaced, it's not like Vice took his role. It's a role he was given, which Yuuno never had in the first place.

Secondly, please provide YOUR reasons why these scenes (multiple, not singular) never came up. Fate and Arf training Caro and Friedliche in one scene, and Yuuno teaching all of the Forwards in another, and Yuuno teaching Caro specifically in a possible third.

Because no two men think alike? Just because you thought of it, doesn't mean Tsuzuki even considered it.

Honestly, I fail to see how Verossa and Shache are more interesting than Yuuno or Arf. Certainly, they didn't get enough development to seem more interesting, which suggests that Tsuzuki didn't find them interesting.

Vice was apparently interesting enough to the writers, as they developed him enough to make him interesting to US.

Apparently I misinterpreted your whole post because of the first reply you gave to Kaijo.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold

So you're not saying that Nanoha and Fate had any developmental "needs" after A's, either. You're saying that no one had any "needs".

Although, if that's the case, why mention it in the first place?

Hmm... well, my feelings are a bit complex on the issue, and probably difficult to explain, so we'll leave it at that. I could say that, yes, Nanoha and Fate didn't have any developmental needs, either, but as you noted, that doesn't rule out possible new scenarios. Vivio, for one. I suppose the clearest thing for me to say is that, yes, I would have liked to see Yuuno and Arf developed more in StrikerS.

She's, like... filthy rich back on Earth, and she's set to inherit a LOT of influence and responsibility as the new CEO of her parents' company.

You think she would run away from all of that to be a virtual NOBODY on some other planet?

Because Arisa strikes me as a girl who would just to go full bore and follow Nanoha, Fate, and Suzuka into outer space, company or not. She'd like excitement. Besides, it's not like she is gonna inherit the company and have to run it as a teenager. She can easily spend some time learning stuff in the TSAB, before going back to inherit the company if her parents die. Her parents might also like the idea of their daughter learning about alien tech, so that she can come back and have the company develop it.

Edit: Just want to say, you have to be careful around some people. A nuanced viewpoint can be difficult to grasp for some, who only have a binary like/dislike attitude toward things. I understand what you're saying about Vice, because I've felt the same way about some characters. It can be tough to view a character with more than two dimensions.

[Sunder the Gold]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Because Arisa strikes me as a girl who would just to go full bore and follow Nanoha, Fate, and Suzuka into outer space, company or not. She'd like excitement.

She doesn't strike me as the sort of girl who resents her responsibilities or parents though, and thus not the sort of girl who would snub them by running away.

Besides, it's not like she is gonna inherit the company and have to run it as a teenager. She can easily spend some time learning stuff in the TSAB, before going back to inherit the company if her parents die.

Except wouldn't she be expected to become an intern as a teenager, to get experience with the business world in addition to academic knowledge?

A business that large is also a society unto itself, with bridges to other companies and societies. Arisa needs to curry her own favors and develop her own alliances, and also needs to learn who her enemies will be, LONG before she officially takes over for her parents.

She can't do that on another planet. By the time she comes back, no one is going to really remember or care who she is, everyone is going to be better established than she is, and she won't have any of the experience she needs to establish her own power and authority.

Few people give a damn who your parents are or what your official title is. Most of them only care about how far they can push you over a barrel, or how far you can bend them over if they cross you. They don't even need to be self-serving dicks; they can fully believe that they know better than her about what's best for the company. She needs to be able to convince them otherwise, or at least make it clear that she won't tolerate insubordination.

Her parents might also like the idea of their daughter learning about alien tech, so that she can come back and have the company develop it.

Except Suzuka is the tech-head and aspiring engineer. Arisa's never expressed a similar or greater interest in technology.

Just want to say, you have to be careful around some people. A nuanced viewpoint can be difficult to grasp for some, who only have a binary like/dislike attitude toward things. I understand what you're saying about Vice, because I've felt the same way about some characters. It can be tough to view a character with more than two dimensions.

It's really sad, because I even painted multiple pictures to help make things clear.

Maybe food metaphors aren't working? I could talk about how a good tractor engine doesn't belong in a good sportscar, if that would work better.

Or maybe how a good character like Jean Luc Picard doesn't belong in a good show like Battlestar Gallactica?

The point being that just because a thing is good on its own doesn't mean that it belongs where someone places it. Certainly, it doesn't belong as well as something better suited to that place.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold

Absolutely not true.

It is true, as your own counter-argument ironically makes clear. In fact, your very first substitution suggestion says everything.

It would be trivially easy to rewrite Fate's final battle such that Yuuno rather than Verossa is the one to save the day by stopping Uno from blowing the place up.

Verossa is so important that not only did I forget to bring him up when I was listing the numerous characters of StrikerS, but nobody else who replied to me (until now) bothered to bring him up either.

You could write Verossa entirely out of StrikerS, and give all his role to Yuuno, and it still wouldn't do much for Yuuno.


There really is a limit to how many ways you can splice up conflict while still managing to get people to care about every combatant that's involved, and every front in the battle. StrikerS pushed that to the absolute limit, if not slightly beyond it.

Yeah. "We want to minimize complications to the romantic teasing."

Then why have Nanoha act like a shy, blushing schoolgirl in one of the few StrikerS scenes that Yuuno did show up in? That's not how a person acts when they're meeting up with an old friend that they have strictly platonic feelings for. I'd expect this reunion to be wrote/presented much differently if heading off the slightest possibility of NanoYuuno was a major goal of the writing staff.

Or, "We're just not interested in these characters anymore,..."

Bingo. And that sends a message to viewers that they shouldn't expect to see much of these characters any more. Some viewers resent this, but the majority eventually adapts and moves on. For those that adapt and move on, they naturally stop caring about the "put on a bus" character because they know the writer(s) themselves don't care about the "put on a bus" character anymore.


To be fair, there have been a few times I've been in the "viewers that resents this" group, so I can empathize with you somewhat.

Rumiko Takahashi (of Ranma ½ and InuYasha fame) was so famous for treating some supporting cast characters like this that a fandom term was named after her - "Takahashi Death". It refers to a character that isn't actually dead, but s/he might as well be, since the writer has forgotten all about that character.

One Ranma ½ character I liked was Dr. Tofu. I disliked how Takahashi soon lost interest in him, given that I saw real potential for his character.

[Nanya01]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Some viewers resent this, but the majority eventually adapts and moves on. For those that adapt and move on, they naturally stop caring about the "put on a bus" character because they know the writer(s) themselves don't care about the "put on a bus" character anymore.

To be fair, there have been a few times I've been in the "viewers that resents this" group, so I can empathize with you somewhat.

And this is why we have fanfiction.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Rumiko Takahashi (of Ranma ½ and InuYasha fame) was so famous for treating some supporting cast characters like this that a fandom term was named after her - "Takahashi Death". It refers to a character that isn't actually dead, but s/he might as well be, since the writer has forgotten all about that character.

One Ranma ½ character I liked was Dr. Tofu. I disliked how Takahashi soon lost interest in him, given that I saw real potential for his character.

Why do you think he, Taro and Tsubasa are relatively popular among the fanbase?

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

It is true, as your own counter-argument ironically makes clear. In fact, your very first substitution suggestion says everything.




.

And that pretty much sums up why Sunders reply left me so confused.

[Dr. Casey]

I've always had a pet theory that Takahashi intentionally dropped Dr. Tofu. His final appearance is placed long before the ending of the series (The Hiryu Shoten Ha arc was written in 1990, while the manga ended six years later in February 1996), and I can't think of any other examples on the level of Dr. Tofu of a character so prominent being dropped so abruptly (with Nanya's examples, Taro's appearances were always a special event sort of thing, so he wasn't quite on the level of 'Recurring character that you can take for granted will appear again,' and Tsubasa was present in the very last chapter, so he wasn't completely forgotten even though I wish he'd been utilized more). Dr. Tofu is Ranma 1/2's only example of a fairly prominent secondary character that was present from the early days, being dumped years before the finish line even though there were many stories where he would have neatly fit into the story. A part of me has always wondered if maybe Takahashi grew to become uncomfortable with Dr. Tofu or came to dislike him for some reason, because his presence in Ranma was completely eradicated with not even a single mention of him past 1990. It's actually kinda eerie.

[Sunder the Gold]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Verossa is so important that not only did I forget to bring him up when I was listing the numerous characters of StrikerS, but nobody else who replied to me (until now) bothered to bring him up either.

You could write Verossa entirely out of StrikerS, and give all his role to Yuuno, and it still wouldn't do much for Yuuno.

Adding +3 to 0 leads to a measly total of 3.

Adding +3 to 9 leads to a larger total of 10.

Basically, Yuuno was an established character, and adding Verossa's scenes to his screentime would have mattered more. People already knew Yuuno, and so cared about him (one way or the other; hate is a sort of caring). People already remembered Yuuno, and this would give them more to remember.

People would have remembered Verossa, too, if the series had bothered to develop him more. He shows up only twice before the finale, right? And basically does nothing in those short appearances. He has no impact on the cast or the plot at all; not to the extent that Yuuno did in both of the previous seasons.

There really is a limit to how many ways you can splice up conflict while still managing to get people to care about every combatant that's involved, and every front in the battle. StrikerS pushed that to the absolute limit, if not slightly beyond it.

While theoretically true, it is easier to care about each combatant based on how familiar they are.

No one cares about what Verossa did because no cares about Verossa. People care about Yuuno and Arf, so naturally they will care more about (and thus more easily remember) what these two do.

In fact, that's what this is about. Their fans care so much about what they do that the fact that they did NOTHING is rankling us.

Besides, I wasn't challenging the point that StrikerS's finale is perhaps overly-busy. I was challenging YOUR assertation that Arf and Yuuno could not have a place in it.

(Dealing with the busy-ness of the finale might have been handled by giving it another episode, by cutting out an earlier, unimportant episode, or removing unimportant parts from various episodes until one whole one is removed.)

And that sends a message to viewers that they shouldn't expect to see much of these characters any more.

It surely does.

But that's very much a problem that the fans can complain about, since it's a disservice to the characters and setting, as well as the fans of those characters. As I've illustrated, Yuuno and Arf still had more to give the series.

I know I can't change what happened, or change what will happen. That's not the point, otherwise there'd be a LOT fewer posters and posts here.

I'm complaining because there's something to complain about, and I want to commiserate with other fans who share my disappointment. I want to explore the ways in which these problems could be avoided or corrected.

I do not want to be told that these problems weren't problems, and that the losses were no real loss.

[Justin_Brett]

You could write Verossa entirely out of StrikerS, and give all his role to Yuuno, and it still wouldn't do much for Yuuno.

It would do a hell of a lot more for him than Verossa, though.

[Sunder the Gold]

Originally Posted by Justin_Brett

It would do a hell of a lot more for him than Verossa, though.

Case in point, if Yuuno's cameo appearances had been given to a brand new character created solely for those appearances, no one would remember that character at all.*

The reason people remember those scenes is because Yuuno was the one who got them. And they remembered Yuuno because of the big part he played in the first season, and the significant part he played in the second, as well as all of his appearances in the Sound Stages and official art and the manga materials.

Verossa and Shache had none of that.

Vice got an entire character arc, had an impact with the cast (at least Teana), with many peacetime and combat-time appearances. He did more than stand around and talk, he DID stuff.

People remember his sniping save of Teana because the series gave them a reason to remember and care about Vice.


*The only reason I remember Griffith is because he's Letti's son and I keep ragging on him as a visible symptom of the problems with StrikerS (also because of of that one fanfic where he played the suffering straightman to Hayate). I should NOT be remembering a character because he's an easy target to shoot.

He still proves my point in that I can't remember a single scene he was in or a thing he did after that introduction scene, which I only remember because I tried re-watching through StrikerS to pick out the flaws. (I stopped at the second or third episode, realizing that it was a stupid use of my time.)

[Nanya01]

Who? Griffith?

Yeah, he did nothing in the season, at all. Alto did more simply by flying Rein Zwei to Hayate. Heck, Lucino did as much as Griffith, which was so minor that when I recently saw a picture of Lucino, I couldn't remember who she was. (And Sette's my favorite character, how sad is that? )

[Sunder the Gold]

I have no idea who Lucino is.

I only remember Alto taking over the helicopter because Vice wasn't the one flying it, and because I saw a picture of Alto by accident on danbooru.

[Sansker]

But then what is the point of such a long roster if most of them lack even basic characterization? As a matter of fact some characters could be combine in to one and lost nothing because they are so poor. Even the ones that do stuff like Vice, aren’t that interesting or not even remember by the heroes. I always say that the characters are StrikerS biggest flaw, right next to the plot, but the reason is the sense of little focus and the overwhelming amount of people.

[Nanya01]

Lucino married Griffith.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold

I have no idea who Lucino is.

I only remember Alto taking over the helicopter because Vice wasn't the one flying it, and because I saw a picture of Alto by accident on danbooru.

Lucino acted as the skipper for the Arthra in StrikerS. The girl who contacted Signum when Signum did the unison with Agito.

[Sunder the Gold]

Originally Posted by Nanya01

Lucino married Griffith.

Face A married Face B, and no one gave a damn.

If Vice had married Alto, we'd be cheering. Maybe only for Vice's sake, but at least Alto was more memorable than Face A or B.

[Sansker]

I personally don't care. Vice hasn't appear since StrikerS and nothing of real value has been lost because of it.