2010-09-09, 13:41 | Link #1002 | |||||||
Banned
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Hmm, of course, we're left with the problem that a normal unshielded human would be able to survive against such an attack, too, since it take destroy paper. Darn it.... Quote:
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The answer is yes. Anyone who tries to claim otherwise, is being disingenuous. Quote:
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Or maybe everyone is just nice and kind and patient to their opponents? Hmmm.... Oh, stupid me, I totally forgot that one of your many explanations is that everyone is an idiot, deliberately using slow attacks (magic AND mass-based!) all the time! That's our lovable resident genius here ark, here. Naturally, since you're pretty smart, if you were in the series then you wouldn't give people a chance to speak because they'd all be moving like molasses compared to you, ya? Ah, it's so much fun coming up with baseless theories! I'm really starting to love your modus operandi! You're right; one unified theory is no fun at all. It's much better to come up with 1001 of them! Quote:
It's the difference in taking out 6-12 tons of material, vs. several hundred pounds. Anything that can take out 4 tons of material, is going to simply vaporize the smaller, less-dense object. Simple math. Last edited by Kaijo; 2010-09-09 at 14:02. |
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2010-09-09, 13:54 | Link #1003 |
Writer, Jester, MtG nerd
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I hate the tank strength argument. It's strictly disingenuous.
I mean, you;d been making these devil advocate arguments, although interesting, they are more theory than anything. I break a wall with my fist, was the fist strong or the wall weak? Structural damage does not occur in battles because the walls were weak. The walls are strong and their breaking is supposed to show how hard they are being hit. Likewise when they say an HE round can bust a tank it is for an effect that is supposed to say 'this is a damn good weapon ( that didn't work)' otherwise they would not even had said anything! it'd be anticlimatic and meaningless. Speaking of, is there any evidence that the marriages have a sense of humor? Alright, *i hit you with a spit ball. You block it with another paper* i then say 'That spit ball was strong enough to take out a tank' For what reason does my saying this make my attack sound powerful? Its unrealistic. Try to understand motivation of the speaker's language instead of undermining it into insensibility.
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2010-09-10, 00:29 | Link #1004 | |||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
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If we assume the Power of HEAT and HE round is both 1, then the HEAT round with an efficiency of 1 can defeat a tank with a resistance of 1x1=1. A HE round can only defeat a tank with a resistance of 1x0.1 = 0.1. Quote:
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But 2 or 5, you did manage to get one correct answer: that we should find a pattern. And the simplest pattern is: The BJ simply isn't as good as some think it is. This leaves the problem of what to do with the better instances, and a dual layer system using already established components handles that. Quote:
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BTW, real disingenuity is to continue to allow your GUESSES about what the Miriage is saying to override the reality fed into your face. |
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2010-09-10, 00:32 | Link #1005 |
Writer, Jester, MtG nerd
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As if I never claimed the author doesn't know what he's doing. I stopped posting here because people hated me for pointing that fact out.
How about the HE rounds in Nanohaverse being capable of destroying a tank unlike our own, eh? Your logic.
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2010-09-10, 01:01 | Link #1006 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
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Edit: Nevermind that. I just realized you're doing what I called you on some time ago, piling speculation on top of speculation and calling the result a conclusion. You assume the Mariage's HE round was of a certain power with no further indications as to whether your assumption was justified or not. Then you further assumed that this would be inadequate to destroy what you consider a tank. Finally, you make a "conclusion" that a defense against this attack was weak because the attack itself was weak. Actually, that's just further speculation. Last edited by Jimmy C; 2010-09-10 at 05:30. |
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2010-09-10, 07:55 | Link #1007 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
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The short answer to your question is that the scenario as presented in the soundtrack demanded it. The long answer goes like this. We are first given the following facts. First, we are told the round is HE, and that it is to be fired from a arm-based howitzer.
Next, we are given the actual sound of the shot and impact (a long delay). We can thus confirm the initial estimate that the shot speed would be low with observation. I hope this settles any objections you have with the speed. Next, we are told that the shot just fired can kill a tank. The type of tank is not specified. We may wait for the actual damage observation to show up, but in the meantime:
Now, we are actually given a candidate observation of the damage done. I say candidate here because it is in a source that's definitely secondary relative to the main source (SSX soundtrack), and the very previous picture shows that it is probably not meant to be literal. I'm very happy to just ignore it and go on prediction here. Nevertheless, Kaijo ironically shows more enthusiasm than me for taking it literally (if only he can show such enthusiasm regarding other, more-highly canon visuals). Fine. The candidate observation shows a very low amount of damage (confirming our prediction) on target. Since at Kaijo's insistence I've included it as valid, I'm forced to feed him what the image means. Which is, of course, round destructive power is extremely low. As for the whole thing about paper mache tanks or firecrackers, they are entirely Kaijo's exaggerated assertions. I do not violently object to them only because he has nevertheless correctly identified, IMO, the author's basic drive on this. As you can see, every step of the procedure leading up to the conclusion that the rounds are rather weak has its origins in canon. As usual I'm sure some would oppose my ultra-literalist take, but I don't see why a theory that actually uses every piece of available in-zone evidence should be considered inferior to one that uses one piece (the word "tank") to the exclusion of all others, much less be considered a "piling of speculation on speculation". I am hurt, and puzzled. |
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2010-09-10, 10:26 | Link #1008 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
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Similarly, it doesn't matter how fast or slow a high explosive round was going. If the detonation of the explosive charge is adequate to destroy a tank, does it make any difference if it's going at 10m/s or 50m/s? You assumed that the speed of the round mattered, it doesn't. You also assumed that the charge in the round fired was "light," too light to damage what you consider a "true tank." This time, you feel you have justification from the following: Quote:
Without that, you're simply disregarding the alternative that weakens your position. You assumed that the explosive used was weak, I assumed Subaru's defenses were strong. Once again, we're both making assumptions that best help our position. And just in case you try to argue that the round fired cannot contain much explosive material (even though I already point out you cannot state the cannon didn't have a bigger diameter than the arm) I want to ask, do you know exactly how much more efficient was the explosive material the Mariage used compared to contemporary Earth ones? It could be better, could be lots better. You can no more prove that isn't the case than I can prove it is. In the end, you're simply assuming that it isn't while I'm assuming that it is. Once again, we're both making assumptions that best help our position. This entire farce is due to you arguing from assumptions that best help your position while disregarding those that strengthen your opposition's. I'm not interested in making you change your position. I just refuse to let you carry on thinking that it's based on anything stronger than unprovable assumptions. |
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2010-09-10, 10:29 | Link #1009 | |||||||
Banned
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A HEAT round needs a power of 1 to destroy a tank. An HE round needs a power of 10 to destroy a tank. Thus, the HE round has a larger destructive capacity, ie, it will make a bigger boom. Place a bomb next to a concrete block the same size as you, and then stand next to the bomb. When it blows up, odds are the block will fare better than you. In order to make the mariage's words true, the blast would have to be big enough to take out the block, so it would need to be much bigger, ie, more powerful. And any such blast that could take out a concrete block, wouldn't leave much of you left over. The real problem is exactly what Jimmy said; you're speculating. You're making up things in order to make your pet theory work. You're taking things and trying to jam them around your pre-conceived notion. That's not how science works. You take what we know and use that to form the most likely answer. What the mariage fired can destroy a tank. That requires a fairly large explosion. Any such explosion that would consume a heavily armored target like a tank, would completely vaporize any smaller unarmored target. That's what we call facts. Also, you're forgetting that Earth has nothing like the mariage, so even trying to guess a maximum or minimum for its power level is a fool's errand. They are clearly more highly advanced than anything we have, so it's highly likely that they could compensate easily for any recoil or size of shell via any number of advanced methods. Since it's audio only, we can't say. So again, trying to cram the mariage into your little box is a fool's errand. Quote:
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So, how do you rationalize this away again? But you're still being disingenuous by not acknowledging the unified theory. Everytime a BJ was destroyed by a non-magic attack, it was either due to the target being weakened in some manner already, or a more powerful attack than the target. That one explanation covers everything. Whereas you continue to want to see the BJ/AB as something so incredibly weak, it'll break and fall apart when someone moves, despite the fact that it's managed to save the lives of numerous mages who have taken kinetic impacts. As was pointed out, Nanoha and Fate smashing into buildings. If an insect's wing can rip a BJ, then there is no way they should have been able to survive those impacts. Even older Nanoha shouldn't have survived being slammed into several walls by Vivio. Your love of physics says that's impossible. Quote:
And any explosion that could do that to tanks, would render any normal humanoid-sized figure into mush. At the least, it would strip Subaru naked by burning away her paper mache BJ (if we go by your theory that it's fairly weak). Even if it's non-flammable, the sheer force of the blast would tear it to shreds. Quote:
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The problem with all your intellectual masturbation over possible shell size, cannon size, etc. is that we're still dealing with a very advanced piece of technology: the mariage. Your figures really aren't relevant because they can easily have access to shells of the same size, but greater destructive power. So even a 15mm cannon can pack more explosive force than our Earth weapons., thus you really need to stop trying to show off how much you know about Earth military technology, because the analogies don't hold. The only thing we know is that a mariage could take out a tank with an HE shell fired by turning it's arm into a howitzer. The alternate explanation you are trying to avoid, is that it means the mariage has access to higher technology than Earth, and thus Earth weapons and a mariage's weapons aren't comparable at all. Quote:
The reality is that Subaru's BJ survived an HE shot that the technological-advanced weapon of destruction calculated could take out a technological-advanced Belkan tank. No amount of speculation or twisting of reality by you will override that fact. But we will continue to derive enjoyment from watching you try. So please, keep at it. We're having a lot of fun with this. =) |
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2010-09-10, 12:08 | Link #1010 |
Truth Martyr
Author
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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Regards to sizes:
I want to point out that the Panzerfaust 3 and RPG-29 can have warheads ranging from 60mm to 90mm caliber - a tad bigger than ark's guesstimated size, but still fairly smallish. I'd also like to point out that the original Panzerfaust was utilised in like manner to the Marriage's weapon; in this case instead of the user holding the tube, the tube is built-in. I'd also like to point out that the Panzerfaust was capable of killing tanks of its era, and that it had a fairly small warhead - the shaped charge was only 800 grams, the rest of the weight of the weapon being propellant, casing, etc; and had a speed of 45m/s. Which meant that for ranges in excess of 45 meters it would take several seconds to travel the distance (admittedly it lacked sufficient propellant to do so - typical engagement being either point blank ambush or from about 60 meters). So a weapon taking several seconds to hit? Doesn't nescessarily mean anything. Also, regards HE and HEAT: Using HE as a catchall term isn't accurate as there are various means of using high explosives to defeat armor. High Explosive Anti Tank is the most common: essentially a warhead that when it detonates, forces a jet stream of metal to punch through armor. The point about HEAT rounds being less effective on living bodies is probably due to the fact that a human body won't have enough resistance for the warhead to make contact and detonate - it'll just go through the body. High Explosive Squash Head is a bit different: it uses thin metal shells filled with explosives and a delayed action fuse. The warhead hits the target, the explosive is squashed against the surface, and then the fuze detonates, resulting in transmission of a shockwave through the outer surface and through the tank. What that means is that the outer armor remains mostly intact but a shockwave is transmitted through the armor along with spalling, causing damage and killing the crew inside the vehicle. What's pertinent to this discussion? HESH rounds are fired at lower velocities to maximise the amount of explosive sticking in on point, rather than being dispersed from a high velocity impact. Generally speaking though, using both types of weapon on a human body, it's debatable as to whether the human body would be able to set off the triggers. Though as with the .50cal Raufoss HE/API round, even if the explosive isn't triggered, you've just been hit with a large warhead - the explosion is the least of your worries.
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2010-09-10, 21:48 | Link #1011 |
Random Translator
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: New Brunswick
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... I have a question, have you considered that Subaru might have cast a barrier type magic off scene as she plunged into the flames? I mean, recall that Erio had to reinforce his Barrier Jacket in SSX to better endure the intense heat of the flames as he fought the Mariage.
Now, what prevents Subaru from using further magic for better protection? Not only is she in a dangerous situation where the very walls and ceilings could collapse on her, but also fire and electrocution risks as well. Not only that, she knows that the Mariage are crawling all over the place.... I don't know guys but you know, there is a chance she decided to double up on protection. She even set up a small barrier to better protect Ixpellia from getting hit but shrapnel/damage. I was just reading the Japanese Nanohawiki and came across an entire list of protection and shield magic. # バリアタイプ * プロテクション(Protection) * ワイドエリアプロテクション(Wide Area Protection) * ライトニングプロテクション(Lightning Protection) * プロテクション・パワード(Protection Powered) * バリアバースト(Barrier Burst) * ディフェンサー(Defensor) * ディフェンサープラス(Defensor Plus) * サークルプロテクション(Circle Protection) * スフィアプロテクション(Sphere Protection) * 防御魔法 * ホイールプロテクション(Wheel Protection) # シールドタイプ * ラウンドシールド(Round Shield)
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2010-09-10, 22:14 | Link #1012 | |
Banned
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Also, the auto-barrier and barrier jacket are passive defenses, always on. The other spells need to be cast to be active, and most mages only cast those when there is a direct need, and cancel it as soon as possible afterward. Subaru only shielded Ix to protect her while she fought the Mariage leader, and if such a thing was deliberately done, we probably would have seen any spells Subaru cast on herself. We can make guesses all day long, but the truth is that it all comes down to what we know for sure. Unless told otherwise, we pretty much have to take things at face value. As long as there is no contradiction, then there really shouldn't be a problem. |
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2010-09-11, 06:48 | Link #1014 | |
Adeptus Animus
Author
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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So if both Erio and Subaru switched to their most powerful Jackets, it's very likely Subaru's defenses would outclass Erio's, since hers were designed with armor in mind. |
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2010-09-15, 20:24 | Link #1019 | |
I am no one
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Inside your head
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Even in the earlier operation in StrikerS, we can see that Erio's getting his ass handed by a giant drone, in a FREAKING train (I suppose it's an armored train, therefore has thick armor). Keep in mind that this is ERIO, a speedster with low protection. It's no wonder heavy-class barrier jacket like that one worn by Subaru can soak antitank damage when light-class jacket owned by Erio can breaching through a thick metal plate while getting his ass kicked. |
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2010-09-15, 20:40 | Link #1020 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Barrier Jackets are hardcore protection. Do not be fooled by their appearances. These things keep some rather squishy mages from being splattered by forces that SHOULD reduce a human to a smear on the concrete. I don't know who invented and standardized the concept; this mixing of various protective magics into an easily-summonable and wearable form; but they probably deserved some sort of award for it.
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