2011-09-30, 08:23 | Link #24721 |
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Join Date: Oct 2010
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She certainly did not freak out as her mother was killed and decapitated in EP6 though and if GENSAWAJO where really killed in EP1 and Maria was with them it would invalidate that theory. Although Will's "Blind Girl" part might be a hint here! The issue is if she's always closed her eyes before the "magic" happens then why would she have them open in EP4? Not only that, wouldn't opening her eyes when Beatrice would have told her "leave them close" make her fail the test? Didn't Kinzo say that she passed it? Was the test to have them open while Beatrice blew everyone's brains out? That would be pretty sadistic of her but would be kinda hilarious to watch. "Maria you wanna see real magic, magic to hurt bad people? This is magic" *Bang* *Bang* *Bang*
e- I also dont think Battler was all that good. Your first example about the people being killed in different places than they where found doesn't seem likely. Its much easier for a body to move itself. There's also some red in EP5 that seems to indicate that there's a undisclosed rule that once a person becomes a real corpse it wont be moved around much anymore. I'd have to re-read the time he finds Shannon's corpse again to properly break it apart since I dont remember much about it. I'd say that more than 9/10 times Battler connected the dots wrong or didn't do a proper deconstruction of the scenes. Last edited by Cao Ni Ma; 2011-09-30 at 08:39. |
2011-09-30, 08:31 | Link #24722 | |
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I mean, how can two people pretending to be one be useful? Several ways:
Fair enough. What about one person as two?
Yet there are so, so many downsides:
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2011-09-30, 09:27 | Link #24723 | |||
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EP3 shows her being quite freaked out by Eva-Beato's behaviour and crying into Beato's arms...I wouldn't be suprised if something like this happened in EP4 as well. We also know that she would frequently freak out when people quarreled and would beg them to stop fighting for everyone was going to the golden land. If that happened in a closed circle within one room and somebody pulled the trigger...things would probably wind up with everybody dead (a bloodbath in Kinzo's study in EP1 was also only stopped by Battler and the cousins interfering). Quote:
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2011-09-30, 10:05 | Link #24724 |
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Battler's biggest mistake tends to be in understanding motive. He often gets things wrong because he makes wildly inaccurate assumptions about the people he's dealing with. If you look at his actual investigations, such as at the end of ep4, he draws reasonably plausible conclusions based on what he's actually seeing, he just has no idea how or why it would have happened because he reads people wrong.
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2011-09-30, 10:16 | Link #24725 | |
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I will have to reread those passages in a whole as well before I say anything else, but considering a quick read of the Japanese version of Jessica's and Kyrie's call I'd say it's highly likely that they were either pre-recorded or acted. What speaks for prerecording also is one thing that Kyrie says...that is that she was attacked by the golden string of light through the keyhole 3 times already. The problem in the mansion is that there don't seem to be any rooms with keyholes because they were all changed to...I think they are called deadbolt locks in English. So there is no way that anything would enter through a keyhole...which hints to her not knowing the room she was in or maybe even planning to put her in a different room. |
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2011-09-30, 10:17 | Link #24726 |
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Join Date: Oct 2010
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Well it really doesnt matter though, both are possible and given the lack of evidence we really cant discard either of them. I'd personally like if there was more of a trick to it than just, "peer trough the window and shot them"
Regarding Maria's test. Im pretty sure thats what Kinzo said a few moments before Beatrice gets mad and sets him on fire. About her conduct, what your saying does make sense though. The issue is that there seems to be some inconsistencies, the job now would be to try and figure out why they are there. For one Maria is openly antagonistic in EP1 forward Natsuhi, in certain scenes it even felt like she's heckling her into violence. Now in EP2 she's quite distraught when Battler and Rosa are fighting and wants them to stop. Is it because she just wants them to stop or is it because she wants them to believe in the witch which in part will stop them from fighting? In EP3 her complaints weren't about her mother being killed, it was about being killed herself! She felt like Beatrice broke the promise to her and felt confused by it. Later on in EP4 we see a fantasy scene with Maria not only witnesses her mothers death, but finds a certain catharsis in it. How does this all fit in? Last edited by Cao Ni Ma; 2011-09-30 at 10:35. |
2011-09-30, 10:53 | Link #24727 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
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On the other hand, shooting two shadows in the dark square in the forehead, and doing it fast enough that the second victim doesn't react, is pretty difficult. Yeah. This happens. Although I tend to think it's not much of a hint... and more just a setup to make Maria's death a bit more unexpected. |
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2011-09-30, 11:14 | Link #24728 | |
Dea ex Kakera
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As for when they died, Battler was able to make out that their full weight was on the nooses the first time he looked inside, so it's probably correct to think they died before midnight.
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2011-09-30, 13:59 | Link #24731 | |
Witch's Golden Breaker
Join Date: Sep 2009
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We all know Maria isn't a typical 9-year old and her views on death aren't typical because she believes in the Golden Land, so barring the EP3 incident (in which she seemed more upset about Beato breaking her promises than the actual fact that she was killing) and in EP6 when Kanon killed Rosa, I can't think of anything that indicates Maria would have a habit of acting this way in front of carnage to where she was mercy-killed to prevent that. She seems to behave in different ways from one time to the next across the various EPs, but overall she is pretty laid back about the news that everyone (often including her mother) is dying all around her. I just can't easily accept that Beatrice killed her to spare her the agony of watching others die, when there's very little indicating that it would in fact traumatize her.
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2011-09-30, 15:34 | Link #24732 |
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To clarify, yes, I was asking if someone could possibly construct a scenario where Shkanon is necessary. I suppose red would be allowed, since it's Umineko we're talking about, but I suppose without being as ... blatant, as, like, Shannon is dead. Kanon is alive.
And yeah, I know that's what EP6 was for, but that was sort of Ryukishi going "There. If you don't get it after THIS, there's just nothing else to say.", and in the plot it was used by Battler more as a tool to provoke a Zanatos Gambit with the logic error for Beatrice than as a legitimate mystery for Erika to solve... <_< |
2011-09-30, 16:04 | Link #24733 |
Artist
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Yesterday!
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What you need for that theorical scenario is not necessarily very hard.
It wouldn't have to be necessarily in red but through an actual plot but basically you need to lock some facts akin to these. Shannon didn't kill George. Kanon didn't kill Jessica. Jessica and George have been killed. They didn't kill each other. The only possible other culprits are Shannon and Kanon. There is only one culprit. |
2011-09-30, 16:44 | Link #24735 | |
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In my mind, a "proper" construction of this is a crime which is only possible by the aggregate actions of Shannon and Kanon while they are supposed to be distinctly separated. For instance, if Shannon and Kanon are meant to be in two separate places yet the actual crime would require a person to possess knowledge that is only possible to know if a person were actually in both locations, and no one is ever able to access these two locations except the people who are "supposed" to be in them. Thus, Shkanon would be necessary as Shannon and Kanon distinctly each have access to one location, meaning one person actually has access to both and thus, is the only person who could commit the crime as anyone else would have been prohibited entry to one of the two places. EDIT: Imagine the following scenario...
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2011-09-30, 16:55 | Link #24736 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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At the end of Ep 3 he almost reaches the golden land, after all. Other references can be the identity crisis he faced in Ep 4 when he disappeared... basically ceasing to exist for a while. I've considered Ep 5 too and another reference can be the fact he ended up trapped by a logic error in Ep 6 and nearly catatonic. Though I'm waiting Ep 8 to get more details about why he decided to attempt suicide and when. Did he tried it after he got back his full memory or just a bit of it? Was the knowledge of who was the culprit that pushed him to do it or the regret of not managing to save the others/being the only survivor? Or merely the fact he couldn't cope with his memory slowly returning to taunt him? (or did he began to think that Ikuko=Yasu was the culprit and was trying to escape from her?) |
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2011-09-30, 18:54 | Link #24738 | |
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Something like a room like Kinzo's with barred windows that can't be opened atop of it and verifying that none are inside and then that only Shannon and "future victim X" enters, and then a similar scenario with Kanon, with someone like detective Battler in both case watching the door. It sounds sorta stupid but there's probably ways akin to Hideyoshi's pseudo murder in arc 5 to make this works. If he was really dead and the detective would've been the one hearing him dying and unable to enter from the other side of the door, and the room would've been really empty of anyone but Natsuhi, she couldn't not have been the culprit. Edit: Heh even simpler without even a murder. Ensure that a room is empty and that there's only one way to leave it. Witness Shannon entering it and that none others enters it. Witness that Kanon leaves it and none others. Enter the room and find it completely empty. |
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