Madoka Magica - Character Discussion - Kyubei

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Pileus

Some speculation about Kyubey:

Scenario 1: It feeds on grief and despair to survive, so it creates hope and despair by creating magical girls. However, as Sayaka mentioned, "the balance of hope and despair is zero," so Kyubey must grant the girl a wish if it wishes to create despair. In a way, Kyubey is like a parasite that feeds on humans.

Scenario 2: Kyubey was created by humans in an attempt to create a utopia. Kyubey serves to remove grief from the human race by sacrificing young girls and those who are unhappy (victims of witches). The goal of those who created Kyubey is to remove despair from the world, but of course, that is impossible. This is similar to the theme in the Lois Lowry book The Giver.

Scenario 1 is much more likely and Kyubey is likely to have some deeper background than just a parasite that happens to exist on Earth. Otherwise, I will be disappointed. Of course, the whether Kyubey is evil argument can still exist (is a parasite or a predator really evil? are viruses evil if they depend on their host to survive?), but the philosopher's job is to argue about stuff like ethics...

After watching ep 8, I think there's a 3rd possible scenario as well.

I'm going to play the devil's advocate here, but what if QB is doing a necessary evil to save human kind?

For example, one of the Great Old Ones or Elder Gods are encroaching upon earth and QBs job is to find a MG strong enough to repel it?

Thus, he has created a battleground to find the strongest, and naturally this battleground has grown into something that corrupts all but the strongest of wills / innocence. This is also intended as if they can't even handle the evils and desires brought on by themselves, how can they deal with an ancient evil that corrupts the minds of human kind?

We know QB is an incubator, but we don't know what he incubates. Naturally, we assume whatever it is he incubates is something evil, but what if his role is to incubate a strong MG like Madoka? QB states himself that Madoka's potential is so great, that she could be the strongest in the world and it would be an easy task for her to save Sayaka and return her to her original form.

[FlavorOfLife]

Originally Posted by taofd

We know QB is an incubator, but we don't know what he incubates. Naturally, we assume whatever it is he incubates is something evil, but what if his role is to incubate a strong MG like Madoka? QB states himself that Madoka's potential is so great, that she could be the strongest in the world and it would be an easy task for her to save Sayaka and return her to her original form.

2 quick problems i can see with this
i) The system is set so that even the strongest will succumb sooner or later because witches may not give out grief seeds but you expend certain amounts of power to battle witches. Depending on the frequency of seed drops, you either end up losing in the long run (much like gambling in casinos) or you have a good supply of reserve but sooner or later run out of witches and start starving

ii) Kyubei stated he has no idea why Madoka is so strong. If he was deliberately trying to create Madoka level MS, he would at least have an inkling why

[Jimmy C]

And his last line in ep8 pretty much state his aim is "witches".

[taofd]

Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife

2 quick problems i can see with this
i) The system is set so that even the strongest will succumb sooner or later because witches may not give out grief seeds but you expend certain amounts of power to battle witches. Depending on the frequency of seed drops, you either end up losing in the long run (much like gambling in casinos) or you have a good supply of reserve but sooner or later run out of witches and start starving

ii) Kyubei stated he has no idea why Madoka is so strong. If he was deliberately trying to create Madoka level MS, he would at least have an inkling why

In response to i) why?

Currently the only purpose of grief seeds is not to replenish magical energy, but to store TAINT that accumulates from using your power. I think Sayaka gives a big hint in ep 8, in that everytime shes uses her power, she accumulates more hate.

In response to ii)
Perhaps I wasn't clear. I don't think he's trying to "create" Madoka level MG, he maybe simply scouting for them. And we don't really know WHAT QB is thinking right now, we just know he is seeking strong MG and that he wants Madoka for her potential.

In response to the post about how QB has equated witches to MG, to paraphrase.

What he actually said was:

"Kono Kuni de wa seichou to chuu no jousei no koto wo, shoujo te yobun darou?"
In this country, developing females are called "girls".

"Datara, yaga de majou ni naru kimitachi no koto wa mahou shoujo te iubeki da yo ne?"

Then it only makes sense to call those who become witches, "mahou shoujo".

In this sense, he is comparing the development of girls to women, as MG developing into witches. This is a big hint, as personality development is one of the central points of the show. We know Madoka is one of the most "innocent" of the girls, and I would fathom that "innocence" is where MGs get their power (makes sense considering the history of "mahou shoujo").

I would also like to add that, it seems in anime there is an often found theme of childhood being innocence, and in the journey to adulthood somehow shedding that innocence and doing "necessary" evils. This seems to be a prevailing theme specifically in Japanese culture.

[Pileus]

Originally Posted by taofd

We know QB is an incubator, but we don't know what he incubates. Naturally, we assume whatever it is he incubates is something evil, but what if his role is to incubate a strong MG like Madoka? QB states himself that Madoka's potential is so great, that she could be the strongest in the world and it would be an easy task for her to save Sayaka and return her to her original form.

If incubator is taken literally, I think that would mean that Kyubey's job is to hatch eggs. The "eggs" in this case would be soul gems, which would eventually hatch into witches. The mystery here is why Kyubey would want to create such a powerful MG/witch like Madoka.

[erneiz_hyde]

"Kono Kuni de wa seichou to chuu no jousei no koto wo, shoujo te yobun darou?"
In this country, developing females are called "girls".

"Datara, yaga de majou ni naru kimitachi no koto wa mahou shoujo te iubeki da yo ne?"

Then it only makes sense to call those who become witches, "mahou shoujo".

This is better understood in the original Japanese Writing. Someone wrote this somewhere here already, but as a refresher:

Mahou = 魔法　（Magic) => 魔(devil, witchcraft) 法(methods, principles)
Shoujo = 少女 (Young Girl)　=> 少(small) 女(girl)
Mahou Shoujo (魔法少女)= literally Young Girls Practicing the Way of Witchcraft. But it's also commonly translated as Magical Girls.

aaaand

Majou (魔女）=> 魔(demon, witchcraft) 女 (Woman, an adult as opposed to a Girl)
literally, a "Woman who Practices Witchcraft", or simply a "Witch".

So yeah, it's a given that (少女) will inevitably turn to an adult (女). It's a rather clever wordplay, if I may say.

[taofd]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

This is better understood in the original Japanese Writing. Someone wrote this somewhere here already, but as a refresher:

Mahou = 魔法　（Magic) => 魔(devil, witchcraft) 法(methods, principles)
Shoujo = 少女 (Young Girl)　=> 少(small) 女(girl)
Mahou Shoujo (魔法少女)= literally Young Girls Practicing the Way of Witchcraft. But it's also commonly translated as Magical Girls.

aaaand

Majou (魔女）=> 魔(demon, witchcraft) 女 (Woman, an adult as opposed to a Girl)
literally, a "Woman who Practices Witchcraft", or simply a "Witch".

So yeah, it's a given that (少女) will inevitably turn to an adult (女). It's a rather clever wordplay, if I may say.

Haha good point, although in this case I didn't think Kanji was as important since the main point I wanted to make was regarding how grief, witches, and the "essence of the magical girl". After all, I think I did hear Urobuchi / Shinbou say at some point that they wanted to do something different with the Mahou Shoujo genre, but conserve some of it's root elements.

[FlavorOfLife]

Originally Posted by taofd

In response to i) why?

Currently the only purpose of grief seeds is not to replenish magical energy, but to store TAINT that accumulates from using your power. I think Sayaka gives a big hint in ep 8, in that everytime shes uses her power, she accumulates more hate.

In response to ii)
Perhaps I wasn't clear. I don't think he's trying to "create" Madoka level MG, he maybe simply scouting for them. And we don't really know WHAT QB is thinking right now, we just know he is seeking strong MG and that he wants Madoka for her potential.

Answered in same post you made in the other thread

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by taofd

After watching ep 8, I think there's a 3rd possible scenario as well.

I'm going to play the devil's advocate here, but what if QB is doing a necessary evil to save human kind?

For example, one of the Great Old Ones or Elder Gods are encroaching upon earth and QBs job is to find a MG strong enough to repel it?

Thus, he has created a battleground to find the strongest, and naturally this battleground has grown into something that corrupts all but the strongest of wills / innocence. This is also intended as if they can't even handle the evils and desires brought on by themselves, how can they deal with an ancient evil that corrupts the minds of human kind?

We know QB is an incubator, but we don't know what he incubates. Naturally, we assume whatever it is he incubates is something evil, but what if his role is to incubate a strong MG like Madoka? QB states himself that Madoka's potential is so great, that she could be the strongest in the world and it would be an easy task for her to save Sayaka and return her to her original form.

Oh my, are you new here? Since about two-three weeks ago some interesting people were taking this very seriously and owned pretty much everyone on the board. I didn't know exactly what happened, perhaps the new revelation that ruled this out ended(?) the spectacular show. I was expecting more say from them actually......

Currently, QB is without a doubt evil, and will stay that way until more information came out.

After all, I think I did hear Urobuchi / Shinbou say at some point that they wanted to do something different with the Mahou Shoujo genre, but conserve some of it's root elements.

I think they said that they are going to deconstruct the genre. Everyone keeps forgetting that "devil"(魔) is the root of "magic"(魔法), and treated "Magical Girls" as some Happy-Go-Lucky colorful and fun job. So, perhaps Gen thinks it's time to set them (us) straight.

[taofd]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

Oh my, are you new here? Since about two-three weeks ago some interesting people were taking this very seriously and owned pretty much everyone on the board. I didn't know exactly what happened, perhaps the new revelation that ruled this out ended(?) the spectacular show. I was expecting more say from them actually......

Currently, QB is without a doubt evil, and will stay that way until more information came out.



I think they said that they are going to deconstruct the genre. Everyone keeps forgetting that "devil"(魔) is the root of "magic"(魔法), and treated "Magical Girls" as some Happy-Go-Lucky colorful and fun job. So, perhaps Gen thinks it's time to set them (us) straight.

Aha, I actually did see a few posts relating Cthulhu to Madoka Magica, but I was taking more of a symbolic approach.

What makes a Mahou Shoujo Genre, Mahou Shoujo?

If you consider that Cthulu-esque beings represent a lot of the negative emotions of humanity, it makes sense that MG are naturally the antithesis to such things. Is see the show more about both sides of the MG coin, with witches the natural opposite of MG when they lose whatever "spark" that defines them as MG.

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

Currently, QB is without a doubt evil, and will stay that way until more information came out.

Also, what makes you say this? He hasn't done anything truly evil yet. He has been subtly manipulative (could be justified there is a great good he is working towards) and lying by omission, but that can easily be explained if he simply doesn't understand Human-kind, which was mentioned by Homura.

[FlavorOfLife]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

Oh my, are you new here? Since about two-three weeks ago some interesting people were taking this very seriously and owned pretty much everyone on the board. I didn't know exactly what happened, perhaps the new revelation that ruled this out ended(?) the spectacular show. I was expecting more say from them actually......

Its more like people decided trying to point out holes to them, which was constantly handwaved away, was a waste of energy and waited for the script to prove the entire thing. Which ep 8 did

[erneiz_hyde]

I get the feeling this taofd guy is actually Kaijou mk.2! lol

Also, what makes you say this? He hasn't done anything truly evil yet.

By the newly known fact that MGs will eventually become Witches, this changes everything...And read the older discussions for why. But hey, nobody knows for sure. He might later turn out to be at the bottom receiving end of the spiral of despair.

Btw I thought up a good analogy to argue about inQBtor's position would be the "organization" from the "Claymore" manga.

Its more like people decided trying to point out holes to them, which was constantly handwaved away, was a waste of energy and waited for the script to prove the entire thing. Which ep 8 did

Really? I was rather enjoying that little legal defense show. Btw, are the team really disbanded? I still see RRR around, but what happened with Kaijou? Banned? or did he deactivate his own ID?

[taofd]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

I get the feeling this taofd guy is actually Kaijou mk.2! lol
By the newly known fact that MGs will eventually become Witches, this changes everything...And read the older discussions for why. But hey, nobody knows for sure. He might later turn out to be at the bottom receiving end of the spiral of despair.

Btw I thought up a good analogy to argue about inQBtor's position would be the "organization" from the "Claymore" manga.

Really? I was rather enjoying that little legal defense show. Btw, are the team really disbanded? I still see RRR around, but what happened with Kaijou? Banned? or did he deactivate his own ID?

I can assure you I am not lol. I'm not trying to troll, just revitalize the discussion.

Also, my points were written AFTER episode 08. I don't think this revelation means the theory is defunct, contrary, I think it supports the notion even more.

Please see: http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=702

[Sekirei07]

Is it just me or does anyone find QB eating himself to be the most morbid thing he has done so far?

[Kaoru Chujo]

Animated gif rom a Japanese site, where it had a caption saying this is the reaction of one foreign viewer to "InQBtor."

Spoiler for image:

Sorry if this has been posted before.

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Sekirei07

Is it just me or does anyone find QB eating himself to be the most morbid thing he has done so far?

Yeah that was pretty disturbing 6__6;

[Seihai]

Originally Posted by Sekirei07

Is it just me or does anyone find QB eating himself to be the most morbid thing he has done so far?

As some people would say: "TASTES LIKE FEAR!!"

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

Really? I was rather enjoying that little legal defense show. Btw, are the team really disbanded? I still see RRR around, but what happened with Kaijou? Banned? or did he deactivate his own ID?

Kaijo was given a temp ban. He should be back in a couple days.

The revelations of Episode 8 are kind of like new evidence being introduced into an ongoing court hearing that all but confirms the defendant's guilt.

That's my take, anyway. Kaijo may disagree. I am looking forward to his posts after he returns.

[Deconstructor]

I do not think the defense team should give up yet.
After all, Phoenix Wright defended clients that admitted to their crimes. Some of his defendants were universally condemned by the general public. In most cases, he was able to prove that his clients were innocent because there was more to the story than initially seen.

There are still four episodes left. Right now, it looks bad for Kyubey... but the sky is darkest before the dawn.

With that, I will pack my prosecutor's suitcase and head on over to Homura. :D

[venk]

LOL, it would be very fun to seeing how someone still defending that kyubey