Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[Aquaman OS]

To be fair the OPs pitching KiraxLacus from the start kind of suggests that was always the pairing they had in mind. Same with AthrunxCagalli. I don't think they seriously rewrote the pairing thanks to fan complaints or feedback.

[Wild Goose]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

If someone is meant to be a killer and do only bad things than toss them in a fire. If someone has no way of being productive, such as even putting things together with glue at the very least, than they're a blight upon society and purging them saves heartbreak and is merciful.

I vaguely recall somewhere that you mentioned being raised Catholic (might be wrong on that). You do realise that the above statement pretty much goes against the entire concept of Christianity, wherein Jesus came to die for the sins of the world, so that redemption and reconciliation with God would be possible. The Christian faith is a redemptive faith, not a faith based on punishment. (Distortions and the concept of "every action has consequences" aside.)

Religious aside though, this is so ridiculously wrong that I'm not even sure where to begin. For one, this violates pretty much every single principle of criminal law, in which you are judged on what you have done, not what you might do. How can you convict someone of murder when it hasn't even happened yet? Psycho-Pass and Minority Report explore this, incidentally, and there are serious ethical concerns. Something like this is too open for abuse.

Predestination? Genetic determinism? Bullshit. We make our own fates through our own efforts. Nurture, not nature.

Also, I want to note that a lot of the performing arts and talents have very little to do with genetics. Singing and playing instruments, for example (but especially singing) are skills which you can become good at by lots of practice. If you have natural talent (which is unquantifiable and completely unrelated to DNA), that gives you an extra edge and thrusts you into excellent and great, but you can still be very good with just effort.

And I'm going to repost an earlier post that you seem to have ignored:

-=-

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Durandal wasn't a dictator as he didn't want control beyond seeing that the Destiny Plan is implemented and does what it's intended to do. That way people are judged based off their potential instead of personal wealth, reputation, where they were born, or the such.

Let me get this straight. You want Durandal to play God and set people into predetermined paths, regardless of free will. It doesn't matter what their personal dreams are, how their life experiences will shape them. Their lives will be preselected for them based on their genes.

I take it you've never watched Gattaca.

In that case, a tiny skinny underweight kid would never have been selected for military service. Except that skinny underweight kid ended up being America's most decorated soldier.

Also, from the prospect of military service, you get better results from a volunteer, someone who chose to serve, as opposed to someone who was shunted into the service. There's a very good reason why most first world countries, especially the US and UK went with a volunteer military as opposed to conscripts. Let's not forget that special forces don't look for someone with the physical ability (genes), they look for that intangible of determination. Quoting from The Warrior Elite, by Dick Couch, BUD/S instructors prefer candidates with the guts to get through, because it's easier to condition physical performance than it is to forge a determined spirit.
-=-
DNA does not determine whether you will be a good soldier or not. Hell, DNA has absolutely jack shit to do with the physical conditioning required for military service. In universe we see this with one of Serpent Tail's pilots, who's a Coordinator but was setup with a body that's physically weak and he has great difficulty in handling G-forces and the rigors of military life. So what does he do? He doesn't go, "Well my genes show I can't be a soldier." No, he compensates with effort and physical conditioning and works to be able to pilot.

Originally Posted by zeroexia

This thread has become really funny. But I thank everybody that has responded to Destined_Fate. You all have shown your maturity and ability to distinguish between what is ludicrous and what is rational.

I have an unfair advantage in that I actually studied law in university, and initially intended to practice. Didn't quite work out, but I found something that I'm good at.

He advocates killing people on the basis that they are a blight on humanity. They apparently can be deemed a blight on humanity because their DNA says so. They may not even have committed a crime but because Durundal interprets their DNA as being destined to be a killer, they have to die.

REALLY, DESTINED_FATE? REALLY? I think your ideology is disturbing and dangerous to humanity.

Not to mention raises serious ethical concerns with regard to law enforcement and prosecution, because the basic principle is you are prosecuted for what you have done. We don't charge people because they might kill someone, we charge them because they have killed someone.

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

To be fair the OPs pitching KiraxLacus from the start kind of suggests that was always the pairing they had in mind. Same with AthrunxCagalli. I don't think they seriously rewrote the pairing thanks to fan complaints or feedback.

No, they didn't rewrite, but it's kind of unfortunate that KiraxCagalli and AthrunxLacus feel more natural. *shrug*

[Daniel E.]

I must ask people to calm a bit here. In the past, I have spoken with several of you, and I must now ask that you remember those earlier conversations before posting again.

[Gundamx]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

To be fair the OPs pitching KiraxLacus from the start kind of suggests that was always the pairing they had in mind. Same with AthrunxCagalli. I don't think they seriously rewrote the pairing thanks to fan complaints or feedback.

yeah.... I was like OMG why is she with Athrun instead of Kira(or single) when she show up :heh
(The writer must love NTR/reverse NTR)

[Destined_Fate]

Kurohane

Shinn was meant to be a pilot as Durandal's test, which he conducted in secret in the past, showed that he had the potiential to be something amazing as well as bearing the same SEED factor that Kira and Athrun enjoyed. That's a rarity and is something that's only extremely well used upon the battlefield. Hence why he always favored Shinn, treated him well, and pushed for him to be a War Hero that got results as that's what Shinn did. Shinn is also the only pilot to have never been defeated by Kira in SEED Mode. Athrun is the only pilot that actually defeated Shinn in a fight.

-

S.Freedom

ZAFT and the Feds made their peace and joined together after the Logos reveal. They were allies of ZAFT and approved of the invasion of ORB as it was meant to purge Logos due to ORB ignoring requests to hand the terrorist over. ORB brought it upon themselves, Kira and co. didn't care. They sided with ORB and Logos at the Battle of ORB and allowed Logos to retreat while making no effort to hunt them down. Instead they waited for Shinn to do it than opt'd to attack Durandal afterward with the intent to murder him.

-

zeroexia

Not very productive of you at all and very personal. If you don't want to deal with me than put me on ignore as personal attacks aren't justified against me at all.

-

RES-01 Perses Gundam

Good, than I expect you to drop this than. Also, "Correct"? Who are you to decide that exactly?

-

Wild Goose

Actually I'm not religious because I tested many religions in my youth and saw very little difference between any of them at their core. So religious fighting isn't about religion, it's about individual power bases maintaining their power and not wanting to share with others.

That's all I have to say to your highly offensive post. Attacking me on religious grounds is wrong and you should be ashamed.

[Wild Goose]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Wild Goose

Actually I'm not religious because I tested many religions in my youth and saw very little difference between any of them at their core. So religious fighting isn't about religion, it's about individual power bases maintaining their power and not wanting to share with others.

That's all I have to say to your highly offensive post. Attacking me on religious grounds is wrong and you should be ashamed.

Way to not only cherry pick the argument, but yet again you're twisting what I've said, which I'll note appears to be your favored tactic when you are unable to answer to the points you are confronted wth.

Ignoring that angle, which was an observation of mine, based on faulty memory, with no offense or malice intended - and for crying out loud there's absolutely nothing wrong with following any religion - ignoring that angle, you still haven't addressed the ethical issues arising, how your intent violates the basic principle of crminal law, and how genes are not a determinant of sucess in disciplines which are skills-based, as skills can be trained, and physical performance conditioned.

Tl;dr, I was not attacking you for being a Christian (acknowledging that you are not a follower of that faih and that no offense was intended), but you still have not answered the counters to your points, and you are willfully ignoring the legitimate points that have been raised.

That, to my eyes, appears as someone who is not being entirely intellectually honest.

[Destined_Fate]

Change your dialogue to be less personal, offensive, and confrontational towards me and than I'll address your points. You haven't even apologized for your attacks against me and instead attack me more. Why should I bother when you cannot even admit that what you said against me was over the line? No, instead you justify your personal attacks instead as if it suddenly makes it okay for what you said towards me.

It doesn't.

[Washu-Chan]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

To be fair the OPs pitching KiraxLacus from the start kind of suggests that was always the pairing they had in mind. Same with AthrunxCagalli. I don't think they seriously rewrote the pairing thanks to fan complaints or feedback.

Was the Shinn/Luna pairing intentional, or was it by accident? If he's to be believed, Fukuda said that Shinn was supposed to lose everything at the end, with the exception of Luna.

And the funny thing about that is that Kenichi Suzumura and Maaya Sakamoto, Shinn's and Luna's VAs, respectively, did get married IRL in 2011.

I think that the TV Movies and (possibly) the HD Remaster tweaked the relationship so that it doesn't come off suddenly.

[Destined_Fate]

Shinn and Lunamaria were always meant to be paired together. It was just handled poorly in the original TV airing. The Specials better reflected the intention better by making Lunamaria not as interested in Athrun and more interested in Shinn a great deal as well as giving them more earlier scenes. The SEED HD Remaster also added in the scene where Lunamaria has the "love eyes" on Shinn when they're all going to Boot Camp thus establishing that she was interested in him during SEED time and they were friends long before Destiny starts due to their going to Boot Camp and becoming ZAFT Red's together.

[RES-01 Perses Gundam]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Kurohane

Shinn was meant to be a pilot as Durandal's test, which he conducted in secret in the past, showed that he had the potiential to be something amazing as well as bearing the same SEED factor that Kira and Athrun enjoyed. That's a rarity and is something that's only extremely well used upon the battlefield. Hence why he always favored Shinn, treated him well, and pushed for him to be a War Hero that got results as that's what Shinn did. Shinn is also the only pilot to have never been defeated by Kira in SEED Mode. Athrun is the only pilot that actually defeated Shinn in a fight.

What's your point really? That Shinn is as good as Kira in terms of piloting ability?

S.Freedom

ZAFT and the Feds made their peace and joined together after the Logos reveal. They were allies of ZAFT and approved of the invasion of ORB as it was meant to purge Logos due to ORB ignoring requests to hand the terrorist over. ORB brought it upon themselves, Kira and co. didn't care. They sided with ORB and Logos at the Battle of ORB and allowed Logos to retreat while making no effort to hunt them down. Instead they waited for Shinn to do it than opt'd to attack Durandal afterward with the intent to murder him.

You don't seem to have an inkling about the fractious nature of the Earth Alliance. The EA fleets that joined up with ZAFT were renegade ships; they were defying the state of hostility between EA and ZAFT by defecting to their enemies. Even though LOGOS was all but destroyed with Djibril dead, EA neither surrendered nor called for a ceasefire, so technically EA and ZAFT were still at war. How do you call that "make peace"?

Both Orb and ZAFT had slightly differing objectives going into the battle. While both sought to apprehend Djibril, the overriding priority of Orb was to defend their homeland. Even if you ignore the fact that the entire Orb fleet was mobilised primarily to defend Orb against a ZAFT invasion, Kira and Cagalli could not confirmed that Djibril was in Orb before their defensive battle began. So how could you accuse Kira of collaborating with LOGOS when he didn't even know Djibril was in Orb? Besides Cagalli did try to find Djibril, so for God's sake stop accusing them of deeds they never did!

Actually I'm not religious because I tested many religions in my youth and saw very little difference between any of them at their core. So religious fighting isn't about religion, it's about individual power bases maintaining their power and not wanting to share with others.

That's all I have to say to your highly offensive post. Attacking me on religious grounds is wrong and you should be ashamed.

What the heck? I'm curious as to how you could test (you mean explored?) many religions and how you failed to recognise the many differences that exist between the religions.

[Wild Goose]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Change your dialogue to be less personal, offensive, and confrontational towards me and than I'll address your points. You haven't even apologized for your attacks against me and instead attack me more. Why should I bother when you cannot even admit that what you said against me was over the line? No, instead you justify your personal attacks instead as if it suddenly makes it okay for what you said towards me.

It doesn't.

With voice.

Destined_Fate,

As I understand things, your whole thrust is that my observation was an attack on your person, using religious grounds. As I understand things, it is apparent that you were offended by my mistaken assumption that you were a Christian. As I have said before, no offense nor malicious intent was intended. To my perspective, I was contrasting your viewpoint with that of the Christian faith, with my error being my assumption that you shared that faith. Nevertheless, as you feel so strongly on this matter, I apologize for assuming you were a Christian, and for making an observation based on what I had assumed was our shared faith. And I apologize for offending you with my observation.

For the record, I wish state that I was raised Anglican, and while I am no longer entirely what one would describe as a devout follower of Christ, nevertheless the faith I was raised in is still dear to me. On that point - on that personal point - I disagree with your earlier statement that "If someone is meant to be a killer and do only bad things than toss them in a fire." The Christian faith taught me that redemption is possible, that it is possible for someone to repent and change their ways, provided they are willing to do so.

I will reiterate my earlier point: to my eyes, you have twisted my words - something you have accused others of doing in the past - and you are using this issue as an excuse to refuse to answer legitimate points that I have raised. Furthermore, you have chosen instead to attack me instead of responding to my counters to your argument, and you are projecting your own actions onto me.

You are free to act as you wish; that is your right. Nevertheless, I also have the right to confront you on your actions.

[Destined_Fate]

Shinn is better than Kira since he defeated Kira before(even after Kira went SEED) and never lost to him. While against Athrun he lost control and thus let his guard completely open for Athrun to take advantage of. We've seen that when Shinn fights with a more steady mind/resolution Kira lost and later on never defeated him. He even fought toe to toe with Athrun until the last episode becaues of his rage.

It was peace as the Feds no longer desired to fight ZAFT and ZAFT no longer wanted to fight them. Humanity, except ORB, was united against Logos. Kira and Cagalli didn't even bother, they also knew that Yuna was a traitor. So it being revealed that Yuna was protecting Djibril shouldn't have been a shock to anyone and it made Kira and co. look like fools when Djibril escaped because of them. Let's also not forget that Kira and co. never once went after Logos, they had Shinn do all the work when Kira and co. weren't busy messing things up.

This isn't a religious debate. I merely saw that in the end religion is merely a tool by the minority to try and control the majority.

-

Me attack you? Now whose twisting what now? You attacked me, I asked an apology for your offensive personal attacks against me. You instead defended your personal attacks and now accuse me of attacking you just because I wanted an apology and for you to take a less offensive and confrontational tone towards me.

I see no reason to continue this with your insistence that you weren't in the wrong and that you were justified on making those personal attacks against me.

[Washu-Chan]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Shinn and Lunamaria were always meant to be paired together. It was just handled poorly in the original TV airing. The Specials better reflected the intention better by making Lunamaria not as interested in Athrun and more interested in Shinn a great deal as well as giving them more earlier scenes. The SEED HD Remaster also added in the scene where Lunamaria has the "love eyes" on Shinn when they're all going to Boot Camp thus establishing that she was interested in him during SEED time and they were friends long before Destiny starts due to their going to Boot Camp and becoming ZAFT Red's together.

I'm guessing that if we were to follow the Zeta analogues, Luna was probably a combination of Emma Sheen and Fa Yuiry.

[Wild Goose]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Me attack you? Now whose twisting what now? You attacked me, I asked an apology for your offensive personal attacks against me. You instead defended your personal attacks and now accuse me of attacking you just because I wanted an apology and for you to take a less offensive and confrontational tone towards me.

I see no reason to continue this with your insistence that you weren't in the wrong and that you were justified on making those personal attacks against me.

I made an observation based on my mistaken assumption of a shared faith leading to some common ground. I explained my position and where I was coming from. I attempted to explain no offense or maliciousness was intended. When you refused to accept that explanation, I then apologized to you because you demanded the apology. I made no personal attacks to you - had anything I said been truly a personal attack, I'm quite sure I would have cautioned as such by now, given that moderator presence has been made known. That has not happened. However, you chose to construe an observation I made as a personal attack, and so I apologized to you on that.

I also pointed out that you were twisting my words and intent. I had not attacked you in any form, when referring to Christianity; I contrasted your opinion with the teachings of that faith. You chose to accuse me of making a personal attack to you on religious grounds. I would say that is twisting my words.

To summarise, I really don't know what more you want. I have apologized to you. I have explained my viewpoint and where I am coming from based on my personal beliefs. And I have drawn your attention to your refusal to answer legitimate points I have brought up, legitimate ethical and legal concerns. You instead choose to insist that that is a series of personal attacks - even though I have given you what you claimed you desired.

I find it deeply ironic that you demand that I take, in your words, "a less offensive and confrontational tone" towards you, when your own tone responding to everyone here is offensive and confrontational.

[RES-01 Perses Gundam]

Originally Posted by Destined_Fate

Shinn is better than Kira since he defeated Kira before(even after Kira went SEED) and never lost to him. While against Athrun he lost control and thus let his guard completely open for Athrun to take advantage of. We've seen that when Shinn fights with a more steady mind/resolution Kira lost and later on never defeated him. He even fought toe to toe with Athrun until the last episode becaues of his rage.

Sigh. There is no end to this cyclical debate about who's the best pilot. Let's just conclude this farce with the understanding that we each have our own beliefs and opinions.

It was peace as the Feds no longer desired to fight ZAFT and ZAFT no longer wanted to fight them. Humanity, except ORB, was united against Logos. Kira and Cagalli didn't even bother, they also knew that Yuna was a traitor. So it being revealed that Yuna was protecting Djibril shouldn't have been a shock to anyone and it made Kira and co. look like fools when Djibril escaped because of them. Let's also not forget that Kira and co. never once went after Logos, they had Shinn do all the work when Kira and co. weren't busy messing things up.

Are you in the right Gundam universe? It's the Earth Alliance, consisting of member suprastates which happen to be called Federations. Oh? So does a desire to end war amount to peace? Are you really that naive? Does the world even work that way? What happened to peace treaties and ceasefires?

Sigh, you are circumventing my points of argument again. If you don't pay close attention to what I write, how do you expect us to debate on equal terms?

[Znozzy]

Originally Posted by RES-01 Perses Gundam

Sigh. There is no end to this cyclical debate about who's the best pilot. Let's just conclude this farce with the understanding that we each have our own beliefs and opinions.

The three are the best at what they do, to make it easier, let's use stat points

Kira - Melee 7, Ranged 10
Athrun - Melee 10, Ranged 7
Shinn - Melee 8, Ranged 8

Kira excels at Ranged combat, Athrun excels at Melee combat and Shinn is the jack of all trades.

Makes sense, Yes? Noone of them are better than the other, but they are all good at certain things.

Strike vs Aegis came out as a draw due to Athrun running out of juice.
Saviour vs Freedom came out with Kira ontop due to him making Athrun lose concentration.

Impulse vs Freedom came out with Shinn ontop due to strategy.
Gouf vs Destiny came out with Shinn ontop due to seriously, it's a Gouf.

Destiny vs Strike Freedom came out with Shinn and Kira ending up in a Draw once they both went SEED-Mode, Shinn returning for supplies on Laser barrel's orders.

Destiny vs I-Justice came out with Athrun winning twice due to better Melee experience and skill.

It's pretty simple, really. One simply let's fandom get in the way, good thing i hate them all huh?

[Washu-Chan]

Originally Posted by Znozzy

The three are the best at what they do, to make it easier, let's use stat points

Kira - Melee 7, Ranged 10
Athrun - Melee 10, Ranged 7
Shinn - Melee 8, Ranged 8

Kira excels at Ranged combat, Athrun excels at Melee combat and Shinn is the jack of all trades.

Makes sense, Yes? Noone of them are better than the other, but they are all good at certain things.

Strike vs Aegis came out as a draw due to Athrun running out of juice.
Saviour vs Freedom came out with Kira ontop due to him making Athrun lose concentration.

Impulse vs Freedom came out with Shinn ontop due to strategy.
Gouf vs Destiny came out with Shinn ontop due to seriously, it's a Gouf.

Destiny vs Strike Freedom came out with Shinn and Kira ending up in a Draw once they both went SEED-Mode, Shinn returning for supplies on Laser barrel's orders.

Destiny vs I-Justice came out with Athrun winning twice due to better Melee experience and skill.

It's pretty simple, really. One simply let's fandom get in the way, good thing i hate them all huh?

Also, during the Destiny vs. IJustice duel, Shinn also lost focus due to him being too frenzied to notice that Luna was between himself and Athrun.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Znozzy

The three are the best at what they do, to make it easier, let's use stat points

Kira - Melee 7, Ranged 10
Athrun - Melee 10, Ranged 7
Shinn - Melee 8, Ranged 8

Kira excels at Ranged combat, Athrun excels at Melee combat and Shinn is the jack of all trades.

If they are, it's because their mobile suits are like that. I'd say they're all actually pretty well rounded when they're at their best.

I certainly wouldn't say, for example, that Kira's melee skill is only a 7 compared to Athrun's 10.

[Kurohane]

^ I can agree with this statement. Kira has been shown just as good as being a melee fighter as Athrun. It's just the Freedom isn't as centered on that as the Justice. Same with the Destiny, it was balanced with a beam rifle and cannon as long range, with an anti-beam sword, the pulse palms and two beamerangs or what you call them as melee. It was a pretty averaged out mobile suit.

Also, dang, Destined_Fate got banned? I saw it coming for a while now, but still, I can't believe it.

[Znozzy]

Originally Posted by monster

If they are, it's because their mobile suits are like that. I'd say they're all actually pretty well rounded when they're at their best.

I certainly wouldn't say, for example, that Kira's melee skill is only a 7 compared to Athrun's 10.

Honestly, Meleeing has always been Athrun's ace in the sleeve when it comes to his arsenal, he is the first one to draw his dualsabers and run in for a prolonged melee fight while Kira prefers to handle things at range, i'm not saying Kira is unskilled at Melee, i'm simply saying Athrun excels at it seeing how he'd rather run up close and saber duel while Kira prefers to shoot things down at long/mid range.

Shinn .. well, either long-range cannon'ing things or bumrushing it with the AS-Sword. Whatever he feels like at the moment.

Also, 7 isn't low for Kira's Melee, i'd say it's more than fair and up to par with him as a pilot in the show, take in mind the statpoints i gave them only apply to those three, not grunts.

Take it with a grain of salt, it's just a example how i see the pilots skills in the show, Kira being the mid/long range guy, Athrun being mid/close and Shinn being the Jack of all trades. All being good at their thing, there is no " Best pilot of the three "