Opinion of Sasuke after last Manga Chapter [Manga]

[ShadowAssasin]

Originally Posted by james3wk

lol, Sorry. Here is a fun Animesuki link Naruto Characters' Data Book.

Additionally, here are some statistical variations between the Databook One and Two Stats (collected by wrstljr, a fellow Naruto fan from a forbidden site)

Most Overall Points (Out of 40, 5 per category)

(Order of Categories/Numbers=Ninjutsu,Taijustu,Genjutsu, Intelligence, Power, Speed, Stamina/Spirit, Seal Speed (read clockwise from the top of the octagon)) (This does not include power-ups facilitated by Kyuubi, Curse Seal or Sharingan.)

Before Chuunin exam:
Sasuke - 18.5 (2.5, 2.5, 1.5, 2, 2, 3, 2, 3)
Naruto - 14.5 (2, 1.5, 1, 1, 2, 2, 4, 1)

After Chuunin Exam (pre-VOTE fight, no data is collected again until Part II starts, but these were the statistical coditions of the two fighters at VoTE):
Sasuke - 22.5 (3.5, 2.5, 1.5, 2.5, 3, 3.5, 3, 3)
Naruto - 18.5 (3, 2, 1, 1.5, 3, 3, 4, 1)

I was wrong, it seems, Naruto and Sasuke went up equally (by 4 points). But, Sasuke improved everything (except Intelligence and Taijutsu), whereas Naruto only improved some of his stats (his Intelligence equals Sasuke by VoTE ).

Thanks James; the entire debate was based on naruto allegedly surpassing Sasuke; posting does become tiresome and tedious especially when debating with certain people(and apparently, sometimes hopeless). "Sledge hammers" are completely unnecessary when the logical architecture of an argument is faulty.

However, I'll admit that the quality of training between them was perhaps equal before and during the exams; there were certain details I carelessly forgot to factor in; apparently I need to read it over again sometime.

Originally Posted by james3wk

By the stats Neji is 25 out of 40 by the Rescue Sasuke arc, so that means Sasuke could have never beaten Neji, but we know that Sasuke at VoTE could have beaten Neji and possibly eaisily.

Are the stats are a representation of the character without additional sources of power such as the kyuubi and cursed seal? (I thought I read you stating this) During that time, without the cursed seal Neji was definitely ahead of Sasuke as he was already in the academy a year earlier and also confirmed as a genius and"rookie of the year" like Sasuke. It seems as though you're severely underestimating Neji; he was one of the most feared and respected ninja by the other students during the exams, and at one point even Kakashi admits that Sasuke doesn't even stand a chance against him( The cursed seal, of course, changes this later on). If you are interested in reading Kakashi actually state this, its on chapter 80, page 3.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by ShadowAssasin

Are the stats are a representation of the character without additional sources of power such as the kyuubi and cursed seal? (I thought I read you stating this) During that time, without the cursed seal Neji was definitely ahead of Sasuke as he was already in the academy a year earlier and also confirmed as a genius and"rookie of the year" like Sasuke. It seems as though you're severely underestimating Neji; he was one of the most feared and respected ninja by the other students during the exams, and at one point even Kakashi admits that Sasuke doesn't even stand a chance against him( The cursed seal, of course, changes this later on). If you are interested in reading Kakashi actually state this, its on chapter 80, page 3.

Okay, I can accept that (it makes sense that the more experience Neji might be able to defeat non-seal using Sasuke), but the problem I mentioned still exists. For example, just going by the stats, Kakashi could have beaten Sarutobi. Kakashi was ranked 34.5 out of 40 and Sarutobi (right before he died) was ranked 34 out of 40. Despite their accumulated statistic scores I see no way that Kakashi could have beaten Sarutobi, unless Kakashi had the MS back then, and even then, I do not believe that Kakashi could have won.

These statistical scores are meant to only provide basic information about each characters overall skill, they are not determining factors in any "what if...?" battle scenario. As you and I have both stated countless times, the determing factor in a fight in the Narutoverse, is more perserverance than actual skill or ability. The person standing in the end, is the one who fought the hardest and had the greatest stregth of will (i.e. they kept fighting). This is obviously an idealistic notion of fighting, but still the ideal is the heart of Naruto.

[ShadowAssasin]

Originally Posted by james3wk

These statistical scores are meant to only provide basic information about each characters overall skill, they are not determining factors in any "what if...?" battle scenario. As you and I have both stated countless times, the determing factor in a fight in the Narutoverse, is more perserverance than actual skill or ability.

Then why do people such as "Lastoftheuchiha" base their arguments on these databooks?(not that hes the only one, just the only one that came to mind off the top of my head at the moment) I've read quite a few discussions between him and you in particular(amusing ones at that) and I remember many of his comments being based on the information given in these "databooks". I don't remember them being unreliable... Not that I'm saying they aren't; I just don't understand the point of them if they aren't accurate.

[Shinabaru Nara]

still a emo fa* i wish i cud say it but ill get sued for saying it with this political correctniss dumb libralls have

[james0246]

Originally Posted by ShadowAssasin

Then why do people such as "Lastoftheuchiha" base their arguments on these databooks?(not that hes the only one, just the only one that came to mind off the top of my head at the moment) I've read quite a few discussions between him and you in particular(amusing ones at that) and I remember many of his comments being based on the information given in these "databooks". I don't remember them being unreliable... Not that I'm saying they aren't; I just don't understand the point of them if they aren't accurate.

The most important information in the Data Books is the complete list of all the jutsus used in the series (as well as their skill/strength level) and background information (i.e. birthdate, number of specific level missions, etc). (This information is what Last of the Uchiha and I argued the most over, specifically interpretations of said information.) Besides that, their are also Bingo book/Nin-card stat listings (these are the pictures explored in the link I provided as well as the specific numbers I mentioned). These stats reflect the basic skill level of each individual, but they do not reflect specific power-ups, etc. For instance, Bloodlines, demon abilities, and other such sudden power-ups are not really figured into the statistical analysis due in part because they do not reflect the true abilities of the individual (for instance, the Sharingan can see through high level genjutsus with ease, yet the normal Uchiha eye can not, so Sasuke has a genjutsu rating of 2.0 pre-timeskip, but with the Sharingan he probably has a genjutsu rating of 4.0). Again, the stats reflect basic information (that a foreign country or, more specifically Kabuto (since the format is based off of his nin-cards), could collect), so hidden strengths are never shown on the cards.

[Hage-bai]

His character played a part in destroying this storyline especially after the timeskip. His death which won't happen is already too late to save this overhyped series.

[ShadowAssasin]

Since the data book isn't a reliable source... (and I'm waiting for someone...)

Originally Posted by Keroko

I... am quite honestly surprised at the contradictions you just posted. You say Sasuke doesn't care about Naruto, yet at the same time you say that Naruto closing the gap between them frustrated him becasue it made him feel that he recieved inadequite training. If Sasuke didn't care about Naruto, then he wouldn't have challenged Naruto in the hospital. After all, if he did't care about Naruto, then how strong Naruto is didn't matter. But Sasuke cared. Sasuke knew that Naruto was catching up to him, at times even surpassing him (even if only by Kyuubi, but Sasuke didn't know that back then) which frustrated him, because to him, that meant he was growing slower then 'the dobe'

So Naruto's... perhaps I shouldn't say growth, lets say Naruto's extraordinary feats, were very much a part of the reason for Sasuke leaving Konoha. Once again, not the reason, but one of the gears in the bigger part.

Surprised? Then get ready for another shock of your life, because I didn’t contradict myself. Sasuke didn’t care about naruto in the sense that “naruto” was not the reason he left. If “naruto” was a reason, Sasuke would have came back looking for him to settle the score when he had finished going through that cursed seal spell(we all know how adamant he is about settling scores don’t we); however it was naruto that chased Sasuke down. As I stated before, naruto is not part of any of Sasuke’s ambitions or agendas. The only thing the rooftop incident did was accelerate the inevitable. The only thing Sasuke cared about was his growth and progress, naruto’s progress made his appear slow because he was so ahead of him before.

Originally Posted by Keroko

And yet Sasuke was greatly frustrated by the fact that Naruto's attack did conciderably more damage.

Yes, being the arrogant snob that Sasuke is, he was frustrated that naruto (a regular Joe with no talent) was coming so close to him.

Originally Posted by Keroko

By all means, do tell what nifty trinkets Naruto returned with. So far all I'm counting is a broken berserker rage.

naruto didn’t receive lots of “nifty trinkets”, however he’s not empty handed. He’s much stronger, and able to control and access and control more of the kyuubi’s power; which may not sound like much, but look at the landscape after the Orochimaru fight. naruto is a heavy hitter; and he’s going to be even stronger after the sage training is over. The fact remains that he’s pretty much the top amongst his peers (except for Sasuke); he did not come empty handed. It’s the constant comparison to the only one of his peers who achieved exponential growth in terms of power and ability that makes it seem that way.

Originally Posted by Keroko

Calmer, colder, its like he erased all of his emotions, barring several outbursts against Itachi (which is understandable, he was facing the source of his loathing after all). Come to think of it, he has become pretty much his brother in terms of personallity.

Sasuke was never an emotional person to begin with; the personality chart in the data book also confirms this (the personality chart is reliable isn’t it james?). He was already calm tactful type, and later became calmer, plain and simple.

Originally Posted by Keroko

More, but not enough. Like I said, glaring Naruto instead of yelling Naruto was a nice adition, but that is pretty much where the changes end. He's still an idiot most of the time (the Kage Bunshin training episode was practically insulting, though the manga took it easier then the anime) he still charges in without thinking most of the time, only starting to think at the final moment, which is no change from what we've seen since the Wave arc.

Thanks, you just confirmed it, he developed more. Apparently it wasn’t enough for you, however it’s inconsequential for my point.

Originally Posted by Keroko

Does it? The only time that was said was in the beginning, and perhaps once or twice by people just getting to know him.

Yes, it does, you just confirmed it yourself.

[Keroko]

Currently rereading the manga, I've been using the anime for a lot of things lately, which was a stupid thing to do, especially in regards to Naruto's character development. The anime seriously chunked that out of the window. -_-

I'll get back to you after I'm up to date again.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by ShadowAssasin

Are the stats are a representation of the character without additional sources of power such as the kyuubi and cursed seal? (I thought I read you stating this).

The stats are only a vague referential for the character, they aren't meant to be compared between different characters and they don't take things like Bloodline, CS, Bijuu, etc. into account.
Differently speaking they are mostly worthless (and trying to add them up is completely so). They are only meant to give an idea of the characters's strong and weak points.

[CMSensei]

The people who don't like sasuke does'nt like his attitude and the way he doesn't acknowlege some people in his life, that made him seem more dark.

Really he did that because it what itachi sayed to order to get your revenge you have to kill your bestfriend. which made him more insoliate to him self when he was young. Now he left his past behind and he got caught up in power.

But I still have hope, but not so much.

[pizzajincuuriki]

You kno at the beginning I wrote this is my own opinion so try not to flame me for it, but go ahead...

Sasuke is a genius in combat only. Everywhere else he is well, quite stupid. He said he would claim power his own way at VoTE right? I have not seen him do that. He claimed power in Oro's way yes. He also claimed power in Itachi's way to achieve mangekyo. And now he is achieving power in tobi's way. He crys for his brother and plans to avenge him...by doing the exact opposite of what he told him to do.

He refused to grow, and then became frustrated at his lack of growth. He became comfortable...and instead of realizing it and trying to achieve power by maybe a path similar to rock lees, he went to everyone else but himself to do it in as little time as possible. Sasuke refuses to see his own flaws and work on them. He bitched and moaned about naruto surpassing him, but never trained until he had to.

Sasuke is like putting bambams brain in Rocky balboa. Yeah he has the potential to kick sooooo much ass, but hes a fucking baby!

I was honestly a sasuke fanboy up until oro stepped in. Actually, reading the parts when sasuke died for naruto and activated the sharingan against oro in the forest of death still give me warm fuzzy feelings inside. But that all stopped once he decided to take the easy way out. Now im not against asking for help in fact im glad naruto did and so did pretty much everyone else, but sasuke just pretty much had himself plvled to glory.

And now my hate of sasuke has expanded into outright rage at the fact that I have to see his punk ass acting all high and mighty about power he hardly had to work for.

Sasuke loves to go to other people for the answers so much his nindo should be plagurism. Whereas people like naruto find their own answers and eventually become stronger for it.

To me sasuke has become what Kuja was in Final Fantasy 9. A souless husk (a pretty one ill admit) who will kill get everyone to do dirtywork for him while he reaps the endless benefits that eventually give him ultima and he will destroy the planet.

I appreciate you reading all this. If any part of this makes no sense to you tell me and I will try to help you understand my point of view. If all you want to do is argue, leave me the hell alone.

[kk2extreme]

i dont want any more powerful ninjas got defeated by sasuke (handicap or not), let see after the time skip, he defeated: orochimaru (while he was sick), deidara (he saved himself from the final blast by covering himself w/ manda, cheap), itachi (he was sick too and did not even try to win ), and now the hachibi.

sigh...

[ShadowAssasin]

pizzajincuuriki, its pretty refreshing to read an anti sasuke post without the poster's dislike for him being based on the gap between him and naruto. I gave you a rep+ just for that, even though I disagree with most of your post. I also like how you haven't included the author in your argument at all.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spoiler for space:

Originally Posted by pizzajincuuriki

He said he would claim power his own way at VoTE right? I have not seen him do that. He claimed power in Oro's way yes. He also claimed power in Itachi's way to achieve mangekyo. And now he is achieving power in tobi's way. He crys for his brother and plans to avenge him...by doing the exact opposite of what he told him to do.

I think when he stated that he’d gain power in his “own way” he really just meant that he wouldn’t kill his best friend the way Itachi did to gain the Mangekyou. He was also disgusted as he heard the details of how Madara gained the Mangekyou; all in all, it sounded like he just meant that he’d gain power in what ever way he felt like…

I agree with your last comment though, Sasuke simply will not let go of his hate. However, I don’t condemn him because he wants to kill Danzou. If his emotions weren’t overwhelming his decisions, I think the best thing he could do is speak to Tsunade & Co. to try and deal with him that way…

Originally Posted by pizzajincuuriki

He refused to grow, and then became frustrated at his lack of growth. He became comfortable...and instead of realizing it and trying to achieve power by maybe a path similar to rock lees, he went to everyone else but himself to do it in as little time as possible.

Everyone had trainers, even Rock Lee. You’re acting as though Orochimaru plugged him into the matrix and uploaded martial arts programs in his head. Rock Lee trains the hardest, but that doesn’t mean the other ninja (especially Sauske) don’t train hard as well. From the glimpses we’ve seen of Sasuke’s time with Orochimaru, pretty much all that we’ve read him mentioning was in regards to training; such as when Sai was introduced to him, he simply dismissed Sai and said “let’s get to the training.” That sounds like he worked pretty hard to me.

And, if you’re talking about the cursed seal and how it makes things easier for him, well I consider that yet another hurdle to overcome considering he had to learn how to control it properly.

Originally Posted by pizzajincuuriki

Sasuke refuses to see his own flaws and work on them. He bitched and moaned about naruto surpassing him, but never trained until he had to.

lol, okay, I have no idea where you got this from.

Originally Posted by pizzajincuuriki

Sasuke is like putting bambams brain in Rocky balboa. Yeah he has the potential to kick sooooo much ass, but hes a fucking baby!

First of all, you wouldn’t have to put “bambam’s” brain anywhere because Rocky Balboa wasn’t a particularly intelligent person to begin with (outside the ring); and interestingly enough, the message of that movie parallels the message of this manga: heart and tenacity overcoming talent. So, naruto actually parallels Rocky more than anyone else in the entire manga; especially more than someone like Sasuke.

Although Sasuke is about to do something very irrational, I don’t view him as “stupid” the way you’re trying to depict him in this comment. naruto actually fits that description bam bam’s brain) more than anyone else, since he frequently becomes confused about various situations and often requires people to explain things to him. (And actually, I think it’s overdone sometimes even though it’s meant to be comical… they really make him look retarded)

Originally Posted by pizzajincuuriki

But that all stopped once he decided to take the easy way out. Now im not against asking for help in fact im glad naruto did and so did pretty much everyone else, but sasuke just pretty much had himself plvled to glory.

Can you elaborate on how he was power leveled to glory? If you’re referring to the way he attained the Mangekyou, I’d say I didn’t like that Itachi gave it to him either, however, I have no doubt that he would’ve found a way to attain it himself anyway. Also, he could have attained it long ago at VOTE by killing naruto; and that would have been considerably less difficult than the fight he endured with Itachi.

Originally Posted by pizzajincuuriki

And now my hate of sasuke has expanded into outright rage at the fact that I have to see his punk ass acting all high and mighty about power he hardly had to work for.

lol, he also acted high and mighty in part I that’s just how he is; and he did work hard in part II.

Originally Posted by pizzajincuuriki

Sasuke loves to go to other people for the answers so much his nindo should be plagurism. Whereas people like naruto find their own answers and eventually become stronger for it.

You have to clarify this for me also; specifically about how he was supposed to learn about events transpiring even before his time without “going to others”. I also seem to remember naruto going to others for answers pretty often as well, not that there is anything wrong with that to begin with…

[BlackShinobi07]

Still bada$$!!!!!!!

[CMSensei]

Originally Posted by kk2extreme

i dont want any more powerful ninjas got defeated by sasuke (handicap or not), let see after the time skip, he defeated: orochimaru (while he was sick), deidara (he saved himself from the final blast by covering himself w/ manda, cheap), itachi (he was sick too and did not even try to win ), and now the hachibi.

sigh...

sasuke has been defeting powerful ninjas everyone seems to be dieing. What if naruto just about had it and snaped and killed him in the manga. sakura would hate that would she.

[Master Mold]

Originally Posted by kk2extreme

i dont want any more powerful ninjas got defeated by sasuke (handicap or not), let see after the time skip, he defeated: orochimaru (while he was sick), deidara (he saved himself from the final blast by covering himself w/ manda, cheap), itachi (he was sick too and did not even try to win ), and now the hachibi.

sigh...

What? When did Sasuke ever beat the 8 tailed Jinchuuriki?

That one is still a toss up.

[CMSensei]

Originally Posted by JINBEI

What? When did Sasuke ever beat the 8 tailed Jinchuuriki?

That one is still a toss up.

he never did he got stronger and told naruto that he can see it in side of him.

[Miss. A n n i e*]

Really, I used to love Sasuke. Now... he's a jerk who betrayed everyone who loved him and his home town... and he even killed his own brother who never had bad intentions!! But OMG he's still... so... hot...

[AuroraFlash]

Originally Posted by Cynthia Herrera

he never did he got stronger and told naruto that he can see it in side of him.

Ah, so Sasuke could see the 8-Tales inside of Naruto, very interesting. Was he playing chess with the 9-Tales or what was he doing within Naruto?
I guess you are mistaking something there.

[DailyMelody]

If you'd ask me Sasuke is overpowered and should die very quickly, but that won't happen because if Sasuke would die and Naruto would be there > Naruto would get "emo/sad/whatever" etc.
Oh and don't forget Sakura.