Madoka Magica - General Discussion

[Raiga]

Originally Posted by felix

Can't wait to hear what her wish was… Doesn't her name mean something like respectful?

BTW is her name officially Kyōko or Kiyoko?

The former. If someone told you it was the latter it was a romanization error.

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Very well said.

Honestly, Slick Rick, you do realize that the bulk of your criticisms of Kyubey could be extended to the majority of all
action-oriented animes, let alone magical girl animes, right?

I'm quite aware of this but normally this is taken for granted just so the audience could get to the point where the protagonist starts kicking ass. The issue is completely ignored because it just a trope to get the characters powered up. In this show its played quite differently and the issue is brought to the forefront. Some people are just stuck in the trope and can't think outside of the box to examine the real issue here. Just because its an anime doesn't mean you have to stopping using her brain to examine the situation in the context given.

You keep talking about Kyubey's deceptions.

What deceptions, exactly?

He was certainly using Kyoko arrival last episode as a pretext to contract Madoka. He also cut Sayaka out of the conversation because he knew she'd dislike him trying to convince Madoka about becoming a MG.

Are you considering that he might be telling the truth, Slick_Rick?

If so, then what?

I pretty he really does want them to become MG's. That I'm pretty certain off. I cast doubt on everything he says. Not so much that he outright lies he plays by some sort of rules but he certainly keeps things back.

[Kawakanai]

Its going to be interesting to see how the flow of forum opinions go after episode 6. Wowee, there are some passionate folks here in the Madoka forum. I love this series!

BTW, has anybody talked about what influenced Urobuchi to dip into Faust and other German references like the rune system?

(Excellent breakdown of the runes here http://wiki.puella-magi.net/Deciphering_the_runes)

I suspect some people have made connections between Faust and the Kyuube/MG system? And excuse me in advance if I missed those discussions but I'm newish to the threads (Sorry if I missed it 66 pages to this thread thus far ). Perhaps a better question would be now that we are 5 episodes in, how tightly wound is Faust with the series mythology?

It always intrigues me when a anime production tries to pull literary references into their world. I guess I'm curious how integral to the story it is or is it just window dressing and exotic frill for the magical aspects of the show.

[Kawakanai]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

Considering the fact that getting fixated about kyubey being evil will give you a bad taste if your guess is wrong

If Urobuchi has information in the following episodes to clearly show Kyuube was neutral or good all along, I'll just think 'good one, you had me going there Urobuchi' and happily think about the implications of the new information.

While I might be invested in a certain idea or perspective in respect to Madoka right now, as others have pointed out, the series is not finished and will soon be over anyway. I have no dog in this hunt, and new information contrary to my current thoughts on the series will not stain my enjoyment of the series. In fact, surprises and twists is what makes a show interesting.

In the end, Madoka is Urobuchi's creation and what he does with it is up to his creative direction.

My only expectation as a viewer is: am I being entertained?

Yes, yes I am!

[applejuice]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

You may as well say that anyone who holds a different taste than you, is somehow wrong. Character designs are subjective as to whether one likes them or not.

I gave up on keeping that 'subjective' or 'objective' whatever criticism any-more, since no-one ever cares about it on internet anyway.

At any rate, I'm finding the whole "selfish" theme being repeated and hinted at to be highly amusing.

One can make the case that Kyube is selfish, but being selfish isn't wrong or evil by itself. We're all selfish. Hell, Madoka is selfish (to keep it thread related). That doesn't make it wrong. If you want something, and you are up front and honest about what you want... does that make you a bad person?

I'm pretty sure there is misunderstanding. My wording was, Kyuube is not a good person in different standard other than being selfish. Also, you can still say 'someone is more selfish than others'. If that's the case, Kyuube has to be on top for playing with girl's lives.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by applejuice

I'm pretty sure there is misunderstanding. My wording was, Kyuube is not a good person in different standard other than being selfish. Also, you can still say 'someone is more selfish than others'. If that's the case, Kyuube has to be on top for playing with girl's lives.

There's really no such thing as "more selfish." It's more of a binary thing; either you are or you aren't. Well, if you want two cakes and your friend wants three cakes, I suppose you could equate your friend being a bit more selfish, but that's stretching it. At any rate, what Kyube and the girls want aren't exactly equatable, so who is more selfish is merely personal opinion. To me, they're all selfish. Who you see as more selfish, does say something about you, though.

[applejuice]

^ Well, you can say it is personal opinion, but...

Let's say there is extremely poor girl who found 1 dollar coin on the floor. She took it, thus she is selfish.

Let's say there is certain German dictator who massacred tons of innocent people for sake of his belief and pride (or just simply crazy, but whatever). Thus, he is selfish.

I know these examples are extreme, but I still think you can say about degree of selfishness according to their motives or consequence. From the information given, Madoka is selfish since she is not becoming Puella magi and just crying over Mami's death since she doesn't want to die. Kyuube is selfish because he is putting girls into the path that is 'no better than death (according to Homura)' for certain unknown motivation (which is most likely just to remove witch, but his abnormal interest in Madoka suggests something bigger). I consider Madoka's reaction is much natural to any human, when Kyuube is a bit more outrageous from his enthusiastic luring for RECRUITO.

You can still say it is opinion, though.

[Kaijo]

Your examples don't work, because the girl was never in the position of sacrificing tons of human lives. In both cases, each person took advantage of the situations before them to benefit themselves. That's what is meant when selfish is said to be binary. Either you take advantage of something for your benefit, or you don't. It's and either/or situation.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by totoum

I'm becoming more of a believer that QB himself isn't evil,but the 'MG system" is evil,the only ones who seem to enjoy it are the ones who've lost all sense of morality like Kyoko.Homura says it sucks,Mami says it sucks and Sayaka says at the start of episode 4 that she had no idea what she was getting into.

Now that's an interesting observation.

There definitely does seem to be something wrong with the Magical Girl system of this show. Perhaps it is inherently evil. Or perhaps it has simply become corrupted over time (maybe by a lot of 'bad apple' magical girls?)

And there is something very systematic to how Kyubey operates. And that's actually a major reason why I have a very hard time imagining him as an Evil Overlord villain type.

Truly manipulative and treacherous villains like Emperor Palpatine, Lex Luthor, Jail Scaglietti, etc... tend to have a certain charisma and style to them. They're careful, but they tend to have dynamic, if not complex, personalities. Kyubey's personality is very one-dimensional in comparison.

I mean, I honestly can't even imagine Kyubey making an evil grin while saying "Just as planned! Ha ha ha ha ha!" Can you? Unless Kyubey is putting on an absolutely amazing Academy Award winning acting performance, he just doesn't have that sort of "Sneering Bastard" personality in him. Do you see what I'm saying, totoum? I know my point is a bit vague.

Kyubey oddly comes across as intelligent, but barely sentient. He's like an android that has to follow his programming, and has little freedom beyond that. Perhaps the best specific comparison I can think of here is the T-800 from Terminator 2. The T-800 had a mission, and that was that, and nothing else mattered to him. Does that make him evil? It makes him cold, perhaps heartless. But evil, to me, suggests something a bit more personable than that. Something shaped by autonomous intent.

If not the T-800, then perhaps Kyubey is like Robocop: His thinking is largely mechanical, and he has directives that he absolutely 100% most follow, but he does have some personal desires and motives laying deep beneath the surface. If so, it'll be interesting to see what those desires and motive are.

Right now, I'm thinking that Kyubey is like a T-800 or a Robocop.

QB is part of that system,but I don't know if he's thinking to himself "I can't wait to completely ruin the life of a girl",

I very strongly doubt he's thinking that to himself. I just don't see any evidence of outright sadism in him. I really don't. Kyubey is not particularly caring, sure, but he doesn't come across as particularly malicious, either.

even if he's not and has no ulterior motives,the fact alone that he's part of an "evil" system makes him "evil" to most people.

With all due respect, I think that's flawed logic. If the system is evil, then Kyubey may simply be a victim of it as well.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

So, we can we drop the whole selfish angle? I mean, if we're gonna use it, we have to apply the standard evenly. Hell, I don't believe in true altruism myself, so I'd agree that everyone does something because of a selfish desire.

This is a tangental point, but I disagree with you here, Kaijo.
I believe in true altruism.

Remember that recent mining disaster? I believe it was in Argentina or Chile, but I can't recall off-hand which it was.

What I do recall, though, was news reports talking about how the men trapped inside were arguing with each other over the order in which they would be rescued... as each one wanted to be rescued last.

In other words, the men were putting the lives of their co-workers ahead of their own lives. That's true altruism, Kaijo. That's genuinely selfless.

However, I will admit that this degree of selflessness is probably rare. It does exist, though.


The problem is actually the opposite of what you argued. The problem is that a lot of people that are assessing this show and its characters, do tend to see selfishness as being of an entirely binary nature. And then anything that comes even one iota short of total selflessness is called "selfish", and I think that's too simplistic, and far too judgmental.

Selfishness and selflessness exists on a continuum, I think.

There are extremes at either end: The relentlessly greedy and miserly on one end (think Ebeneezer Scrooge before his personal redemption), and folks like those miners I mentioned earlier on the other end.

But most people fall inbetween.

So, selfishness is a relative scale. And, in my opinion, for someone to be deserving of the criticism "selfish", he or she needs to be more selfish than the average human being. I don't see that with Madoka or Sayaka. The average human being would probably be wishing for a trillion dollars, or for immortality. Compared to that, their wishes are relatively selfless.

Now of course Sayaka hopes that she'll get some personal benefits from her wish. But that doesn't mean that she doesn't want Kamijo to become happy again for his own sake. That doesn't mean she's being selfish. She's not. Far from it, imo.

So, again, people are holding up far too low a measure for "selfish".

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

I'm quite aware of this but normally this is taken for granted just so the audience could get to the point where the protagonist starts kicking ass. The issue is completely ignored because it just a trope to get the characters powered up. In this show its played quite differently and the issue is brought to the forefront.

I don't see this show putting the issue of "Why girls? Why not adults?" to the forefront. I don't see this show putting the issue of "Why not call in the military?" to the forefront.

This show is emphasizing the basic danger aspect of being a magical girl more than most other magical girl shows do, but it's not raising most of the questions that you are. The fact that we're dealing with teenage girls here (as opposed to adults) is as glossed over by this magical girl show as it is by any other that I've seen. At least so far.

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I don't see this show putting the issue of "Why girls? Why not adults?" to the forefront. I don't see this show putting the issue of "Why not call in the military?" to the forefront.

This show is emphasizing the basic danger aspect of being a magical girl more than most other magical girl shows do, but it's not raising most of the questions that you are. The fact that we're dealing with teenage girls here (as opposed to adults) is as glossed over by this magical girl show as it is by any other that I've seen. At least so far.

Those aren't the issues those are only alternatives I suggested. The issue has to do with QB, his methods and motives, normally this is completely irrelevant to the story as its just a pretext as I have said.

Danger is only an element of the issue as its gets us to consider if being a MG girl is really such a good thing or are we truly making a deal with the devil. While some of us might be like Sayaka and ignore the danger even if we know it, other might be more prudent in our evaluation like Madoka. We have the advantage of the writers emphasizing the shadiness of QB actions and for the most part these girls with the exception of possibly Homura haven't yet come to question some of the things he tells them. An adult would probably make a more informed decision but I generally can't separate the fact that these girls are so young and inexperience to why he they would be so susceptible to him. If anything I view him so far in the light of a sexual predator/pedophile.

[applejuice]

Just remind you guys;

Shaft's website is updated;
http://www.shaft-web.co.jp/
which now lists every work by Shaft until Madoka now. It's a bit parallel to the situation when Shaft pages was updated during Bakemonogatari's airing. Also, they are recruiting not just animators, but also production assistant staffs. Rather than emergency call like last time, it's more of business purpose, I think. Though, we can expect some quality improvement after all.

http://animapple.blogspot.com/2011/0...y-updated.html

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

This is a tangental point, but I disagree with you here, Kaijo.
I believe in true altruism.

Remember that recent mining disaster? I believe it was in Argentina or Chile, but I can't recall off-hand which it was.

What I do recall, though, was news reports talking about how the men trapped inside were arguing with each other over the order in which they would be rescued... as each one wanted to be rescued last.

In other words, the men were putting the lives of their co-workers ahead of their own lives. That's true altruism, Kaijo. That's genuinely selfless.

When I talk about the "no such thing as true altruism" idea, it means that even those Chilean miners were going to get something out of this. The self-respect of their peers and the world, the rush of endorphins from "doing the right thing." Then there is the social aspect, where if one or two say they will be last and it catches on, everyone has to say they will be last in order to keep up.

There is selfishness in everything. But as I hope I've made clear, that's not a bad thing. We humans are geared to act in our own interest. If a greedy motherfuck will donate large sums to charity... it's a great tax write-off!

So that's why I don't think badly of Sayaka. Because even if she made a selfish wish (and the jury is still out on that), she's still taken on a death sentence. In the good book, there is a line, "No greater love hath a man than this; that he lay down his life for his friend." While I'm no longer religious, there is an element of truth to that.

What I mean by "apply the standard evenly" is the laughable point that somehow Sayaka is selfish but Madoka isn't. If we're going to apply it evenly, the Madoka is just as selfish, acting in her own best interest. Whether or not one agrees with an action taken, does not absolve the action of its inherent properties.

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

Danger is only an element of the issue as its gets us to consider if being a MG girl is really such a good thing or are we truly making a deal with the devil. While some of us might be like Sayaka and ignore the danger even if we know it, other might be more prudent in our evaluation like Madoka. We have the advantage of the writers emphasizing the shadiness of QB actions and for the most part these girls with the exception of possibly Homura haven't yet come to question some of the things he tells them. An adult would probably make a more informed decision but I generally can't separate the fact that these girls are so young and inexperience to why he they would be so susceptible to him. If anything I view him so far in the light of a sexual predator/pedophile.

Pedophile? Isn't that a bit hyperbolic? Why not just call him a nazi so we can Godwin this thread? If I wanted that kind of language, I'd turn on Faux news.

We don't know why he recruits just young girls. Of course, the reason is because it is a Magical Girl show, but there has been no internal revelation for why that is. Perhaps young girls are the only ones with magical potential. Perhaps, as some said, Madoka wished this world into existence because she wanted a world of magical girls. In any event, we have witches which are a clear threat to humans, and magical girls are apparently the only ones who can stop them. It's not very fair to paint him a sexual predator if he's acting in this line.

You can hold your viewpoint that he's evil, without resorting to hyperbole that's better left on an extremist pundit's broadcast.

[zato_1one]

The seiyuu answered some questions from fan about the series. I heard that it had some hints about Sayaka. Can someone here translate it?

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm13473066

or

http://nicosound.anyap.info/sound/sm13473066

[Ichijo]

I don't know if this was posted, but I think this theory makes sense, even though it looks like a plot of Shin megami tensei game.

http://wiki.puella-magi.net/Speculah..._System_Theory

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Pedophile? Isn't that a bit hyperbolic? Why not just call him a nazi so we can Godwin this thread? If I wanted that kind of language, I'd turn on Faux news.

We don't know why he recruits just young girls. Of course, the reason is because it is a Magical Girl show, but there has been no internal revelation for why that is. Perhaps young girls are the only ones with magical potential. Perhaps, as some said, Madoka wished this world into existence because she wanted a world of magical girls. In any event, we have witches which are a clear threat to humans, and magical girls are apparently the only ones who can stop them. It's not very fair to paint him a sexual predator if he's acting in this line.

You can hold your viewpoint that he's evil, without resorting to hyperbole that's better left on an extremist pundit's broadcast.

Don't distort my words, I'm saying I view him in a similar light. I see him taking advantage of these girls naivete to get them involved in a situation they know very little about. His methods so far I tend to find underhanded and unlikable. It is a valid comparison to me. I'm not saying he rapes little girls but he does take advantage of them in a somewhat similar fashion, IMO. Kind of "Hey little girl get in my car, I'll give you some candy" and when they get to the ultimate destination she finds a little more than candy waiting for her. Oh but they got the candy so I guess you'd call him not such a bad guy after all, right?

We don't know everything yet but what I see allows me to form an opinion. You don't need to try to paint me as some sort of extremist to try to invalidate that opinion.

I don't really hold the viewpoints he evil just that he quite possibly might be and I have been leaning towards it more and more as episodes have gone by.

[cat_monster]

The seiyuu answered some questions from fan about the series. I heard that it had some hints about Sayaka. Can someone here translate it?

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm13473066

or

http://nicosound.anyap.info/sound/sm13473066

Spoiler for interview excerpt:

(Japanese: Eri Kitamura's comments that seem important)
「さやかが…かわいそうです。かわいそうな方向にしか行かないかなぁ…？ いや、でも、一寸の光は射してるんですよ？」
「２、３回、いやもっとかな、そうだと思ったら、ひっくりかえってひっくりかえってひっくりかえってひっく りかえって…みたいなことがさやかの場合起きます」
「さやかはおいしい役だったな、と（思います）。『本当にさやかはおいしい役だよ、エリ、頑張れ』と斎藤千 和ちゃんが言ってくれるぐらい、かなりキーパーソンになってきます」

(general tenor)
・Ms. Kitamura says that she feels pity for Sayaka. She implys that Sayaka will be in a pitiable condition. But, she also implys there will be also a slim hope (or mercy? / 光 = light) for Sayaka.
・She says the expectations about Sayaka will be reversed over and over again.
・Sayaka is a keyperson. Chiwa Saito (Homura's voice actress) said to her, "Eri, you are lucky to play the role of Sayaka. Give it your all! "


I tried but the above might be not a good translation due to my poor English proficiency.
Especially, I am not sure about the translation of the words "かわいそうな方向にしか行かないかなぁ…？ いや、でも一寸の光は射してるんですよ？". There will be more suitable English expression than mine.
I hope someone will make a better translation.

[sirn]

Episodes staffs!

Previous: episodes 2-5

Episode 6
Script: Urobuchi Gen
Storyboard: Sasaki Shinsaku
Episode Director: Asari Fujiaki
Animation Director: Fukunaga Jun'ichi, Miyashima Hitoshi

Episode 7
Script: Urobuchi Gen
Storyboard: Nishita Masayoshi
Episode Director: Kidokoro Satoaki
Animation Director: Kobayashi Ryou, Kado Tomoaki

Episode 8
Script: Urobuchi Gen
Storyboard: Omata Shin'ichi
Episode Director: Kawabata Takashi
Animation Director: Kondou Yuuji, Matsumoto Tomoyuki

Episode 9
Script: Urobuchi Gen
Storyboard: Shichishima Noriko
Episode Director: Masahiro Mukai
Animation Director: Katayama Miyuki

Originally Posted by cat_monster

There will be more suitable English expression than mine. I hope someone will make a better translation.

Spoiler:

My English is not very strong either, but I think "she's going to move in a pitiful direction, but there's a ray of light at the end" will do.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

Don't distort my words, I'm saying I view him in a similar light. I see him taking advantage of these girls naivete to get them involved in a situation they know very little about. His methods so far I tend to find underhanded and unlikable. It is a valid comparison to me. I'm not saying he rapes little girls but he does take advantage of them in a somewhat similar fashion, IMO. Kind of "Hey little girl get in my car, I'll give you some candy" and when they get to the ultimate destination she finds a little more than candy waiting for her. Oh but they got the candy so I guess you'd call him not such a bad guy after all, right?

We don't know everything yet but what I see allows me to form an opinion. You don't need to try to paint me as some sort of extremist to try to invalidate that opinion.

I don't really hold the viewpoints he evil just that he quite possibly might be and I have been leaning towards it more and more as episodes have gone by.

Well, you're welcome to your opinion. It's just that people will generally think you're odd, if you sit outside a flea market and say "I look at you all like pedophiles and sexual deviants for exchanging goods and services!"

Hell, do you see yourself as a sexual predator for engaging in capitalistic practices? Because you've offered payment for services in the past.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Well, you're welcome to your opinion. It's just that people will generally think you're odd, if you sit outside a flea market and say "I look at you all like pedophiles and sexual deviants for exchanging goods and services!"

Slick_rick is speaking in a symbolic way,kinda like how the big bad wolf in the little red riding hood symbolises pedophiles despite the fact there's nothing sexual in the story.

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Well, you're welcome to your opinion. It's just that people will generally think you're odd, if you sit outside a flea market and say "I look at you all like pedophiles and sexual deviants for exchanging goods and services!"

Hell, do you see yourself as a sexual predator for engaging in capitalistic practices? Because you've offered payment for services in the past.

A strawman argument. I'm not arguing capitalism or anything similar. I'm arguing the taking advantage of girls. When you trade a wish for be coming a MG you should understand fully what you're getting yourself into. We don't know all the trouble MG go through but Mami herself said it's not something she wish on anyone and Himora goes to great lengths to stop Madoka from becoming one. This should all gives us pause to consider what happens to them.

If you feel that way I guess you feel I have no right to criticize prostitution or drug traffickers right? That's just the exchange of good and services too. I'm arguing the right and wrong of what he sells and does.