2010-12-13, 20:35 | Link #19721 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
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In any case, whatever her motive was, you said yourself that conceptual denial does not equal conceptual impossibility. Unless we are given a reason that Piece-Erika cannot exist in her respective boards, I think trying to interpret those boards without her existence is going in the wrong direction. Like I said, I still think there may be something symbolic to Erika, but conjectures about that should be a separate matter. i.e., she can be both YASU (this will become a commonly used acronym) and a person on the board of EP5. Last edited by witchfan; 2010-12-13 at 20:51. |
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2010-12-13, 20:35 | Link #19722 |
Thought Being
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Canada
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I disagree to an extent about Ryuukishi. I believe he /has/ thought this far. While Umineko can be very convoluted to us, I firmly believe he has a very clear concept of his meta world and how it works in his head. He's just slowly revealing it, or he'll leave it up to speculation, but I don't think he's just randomly throwing meta characters such as Erika and Kanon and Clair at us without knowing the implications of them. Based on the fact of how he's been able to set this up this kind of overarching story, not once, but twice with Higurashi, I have more then enough faith that the meta elements and how they're handled are all thought out.
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2010-12-13, 20:47 | Link #19724 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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The problem I have with Erika being erased because she understood she didn't exist, is the fact that there are strong hints that she already knew that to begin with.
In the first place she's always claimed to be Bern's piece, and to have been created by her. She also made evident furniture talks. I also can't help but to notice that the assumption of this theory is that Erika wouldn't be erased otherwise. But then what was the purpose of the gun duel and all that lengthy explanations about the existence erasing bullets? I think Erika and Beatrice were both well aware that they didn't exist as humans, but that alone isn't enough to kill a furniture. Hell even Kanon knows he isn't a human, that never made him to disappear.
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2010-12-13, 21:04 | Link #19725 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
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Well, Jan-Poo, to rehash what Renall said: it's implied conceptual denial, and not conceptual impossibility, is what's necessary to erase oneself from the meta-world.
I think the denial doesn't have to be one of your phyiscal existence, and you can erase yourself simply by doubting your sense of self; where you stand as a being (as in Battler's case). In light of this, one possible explanation is that Erika erased herself after having an existential crisis of sorts. My conjecture was that rather than realizing she cannot possibly exist, she saw that, while she is the Witch of Truth, she cannot see the truth. This is a problem as big, if not larger than the denial-in-red of Battler in EP4. |
2010-12-13, 21:19 | Link #19726 | |
Blick Winkel
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Gobbled up by Promathia
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I think it was "Erika failed at her job and thus faded into obscurity", etc. rather than "she knew she didn't exist at all". Besides, she herself was the one who announced "Hey guys, I'm not really here at all". |
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2010-12-13, 21:21 | Link #19727 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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There is still he problem that you think that Erika erased herself, while the evidence shows that even so the bullet was supposed to kill her instantly she still managed to survive for another few seconds through her will power.
Basically she knew she was already done for, but she managed to still stand to be "killed" in a more dramatic way. This implies the opposite that you are suggesting. That is, that the bullet can still have effect while Erika maintains a strong will to survive.
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2010-12-13, 21:33 | Link #19729 | |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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My guess is that conceptual denial is something that still has to happen via someone else's actions (Beatrice denying Battler, Dlanor and Erika killing him temporarily, Beatrice finally fading out, Erika's disappearance), but requires a receptive state of mind. We actually have a fair number of examples of it, but no clear rules.Then we wrote a better book than he did? That's an accomplishment at least.
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2010-12-13, 22:42 | Link #19730 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
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But my memory might be tricking me, and I'm completely wrong here. If you think I'm forgetting something obvious, you can let me know and I'll watch the scene again. Quote:
Last edited by witchfan; 2010-12-13 at 22:53. |
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2010-12-14, 00:02 | Link #19731 |
Miss Kimi
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Residing as the 18th guest of Rokkenjima
Age: 28
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Lol, Ryukishi is certainly not retarded. Heck, the fact that we are all debating over a fictional world in a fictonal world about a META world watching over ANOTHER fictional world but somehow related to that OTHER fictional world...
Haha, Ryukishi is amazingly genius for thinking this all up. Be thankful for him, for we wouldn't have such a juicy mystery to dissect today!
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Last edited by CrystalStarlight95; 2010-12-14 at 09:10. |
2010-12-14, 00:51 | Link #19732 | ||
The True Culprit
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2010-12-14, 01:36 | Link #19733 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Meta-Meta-Meta-Space
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Instead of Erika erasing herself, could her existence be denied because everyone else realized she didn't exist? From the metaworld and up, that is.
If you think about it, Erika was a tool for one side to attack the other. When the other side realized that she wasn't real, they could easily brush aside this character as irrelevant. This kinda words, right? EDIT: Oops, Renall kinda mentioned this already. |
2010-12-14, 02:00 | Link #19734 |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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The idea of meta-fiction isn't all that new. Untrustworthy narratives told by unreliable narrators stacked upon unreliable narrators. The question is, which of the famous works have influenced Ryukishi?
Spoiler for Obviously this would be spoiling lots of things...:
The point is (for those not reading spoilers), he could definitely be doing this sort of thing. It wouldn't be taking meta-fiction too far at all. Some of the greatest authors of the 20th century (and also Stephen King) have done it, so it's certainly not niche either. Now, whether he's a Vladimir Nabokov or more of a Stephen King... EDIT: Actually now that I think on it, it's quite easy to imagine Ryukishi considering the "message bottle" part of And Then There Were None and asking himself "What if the confession only coincidentally matched the evidence found? What if no evidence was found? The only thing 'proving' a mystery happened is the story that told the mystery itself..."
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2010-12-14, 09:50 | Link #19737 |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: United Kingdom.
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I have a question since I haven't read episode 6 or 7 yet; is Battler explicitly mentioned or make an appearance on episode 7's gameboard?
I just feel that the Shannon = Yasu is just too obvious, there has to be something new twist that could happen. I personally believe that a member of O7th Expansion started the Shkanon rumour and mentioned it regularly to makes it rise in prominence. I believe the actual reason our Battler didn't return to the Island was because he WAS Lion/Yasu. What I believe happened was that if Natsuhi didn't accept Baby battler, a deal would be struck with Asumu to make her 'give birth' to Battler when both Kyrie and Asumu miscarried (or perhaps Asumu had a ghost baby (if that's the correct term)). I believe this might make more sense with Battler's being the person from 19 years ago epiphany in EP5 after knowing that he wasn't Asumu's son. If Rudolf was aware of this, it would explain why he went to high lengths to get Battler to come when he had Battler as his son. (hope that doesn't sound too confusing) If there was a Battler in EP7 then I could guess that he is another of Kyrie's sons called Battler since Rudolf would not have the obligation to marry Asumu and could therefore have a new child without original battler being annoyed. Did anyone else think of this? |
2010-12-14, 10:12 | Link #19739 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Problem is that we didn't even know the existence of the baby before EP5 and as stated you are able to solve the mystery before at the end of EP4. Even worse is that if Battler was really the baby then he would be the prime candidate for the actual culprit in EP5. Battler has time and time again been declared to not be the culprit in any of the games.
I do agree that Shkanon thing being a dead giveaway. A lot of the elements from the first 4 games felt to intentionally lead us in a direction so that we, using the internet, would elaborate and create possible truths with other readers. In essence we are the Witch Hunt, trying to find the truth and making crazy speculations in the process. She could dislike her for whatever reason she wanted. |
2010-12-14, 10:21 | Link #19740 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
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P.S. I'm of the opinion that there are no unrelated remarks in the first episode as it is basically the real world. All the later setups deviated from reality as witch needed to change character personalities at least a bit to make the board work differently. Last edited by Zekses; 2010-12-14 at 11:08. |
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