Several VS opinions

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Derringer

Hey. Pick a side. You're destroying the fun this debate by just picking apart the arguments of both sides.

Pick a side? What makes you think that I'm even interested in who'd win?

Originally Posted by Derringer

How is the advantage of the Zero System in question? It enhances the performance of the pilot. Given that both pilots are of high proficiency, one person has extra help while the other doesn't.

But how can we be sure that the Zero system confers much of an advantage?

Originally Posted by Derringer

Gundanium is about god damned invincible. It takes numerous beam shots to be able to damage it. I merely pointed that the material also has the other properties. The Luna Titanium in Gundam X is damageable by a lot of stuff, but is still pretty god damned strong, though not as strong as portrayed in Wing. Well let's see here. All throughout Wing, the bad guys always had a horrendous time finding out where the Gundams were hiding since they were invisible to almost all forms of detection.

I believe that the Gundams in Wing were only hard to detect in the first half of the show. Nearer the end, the only one that was stated to have any significant stealth capabilities was Deathscythe.

Originally Posted by SNT1

Wing Zero has 88150 kg, says MAHQ WZC profiles...

Thanks. If Wing Zero also has 88150kgf of thrust, then (given a minimum combat mass of 50 tons) it would have a maximum acceleration of about 1.75g. This figure seems relatively consistent with the animation.

Originally Posted by SNT1

Trying to derive a number from an animation (inconsistent ones at that) is both stupid and useless.

Incorrect. If you want to disparage the idea, you'd be far more accurate to characterise it as childish and silly. Of course, the same characterization can also apply to trying to figure out which of two fictional machines is superior as well, so I don't think it'd be much of a criticism.

By the way, why do you give the impression that derived results are only useful if they were perfectly accurate?

Originally Posted by SNT1

Take Hamrabi for example, suck-ass on paper yet a monster with Yazan @helm. Food for thought.

That actually seems like a good reason to not place too much faith on the published specs, which tend to be subject to change. The animation seems to be the much more reliable source.

Originally Posted by monstert

Considering that, other than its twin satellite cannon, Double X isn't so different than most high performance mobile suit, I was willing to say that the Zero System do give an advantage for Wing Zero. However, the Zero System was never used against Double X. Therefore, trying to quantify how much of an advantage the Zero System gives, in my opinion, is not as easy as you're tring to make it out to be. Especially since most of the mobile suits in Wing were easily defeated anyway even without the use of the Zero System.

The Zero system's capability against Double X isn't necessary to figuring out what Wing Zero's overall performance, so it shouldn't be necessary for our purposes.

Originally Posted by monstert

Which is why I believe most military developer won't give so much effort in producing such type of system unless they felt the advantage it gives is definitely worth the effort of finding the right person to use it. And if such is the case, then I doubt they would be please with anything largely less than the theoretical capabilities of the system. And since there was indication (as far as I remember) of neither the Zero System not performing anywhere near its theoretical capabilities nor of anyone using it to its limits or beyond, then what's shown in the anime isn't really enough in describing exactly how much of an advantage the Zero System can give. To really gauge the advantage of using it, we would need more information about the Zero System, which we don't have (as far as I know).

I don't think that these are much of a concern. A prototpye is developed to test an idea. Often, the designers will have very high expectations of their designs, but these expectations often don't pan out. The very reason for building prototypes is to work out what kind of flaws are inherent in a design and to determine whether it's suitable for mass production. Wing Zero most certainly fits well here because I don't think that the designers ever expected that the Zero system would drive people (even more) nuts.

The possiblity that we've never seen the Zero system used to its full potential isn't really that important either. There's two reasons; the first is that we can only work with what we know, and the second is that it's quite likely that no mobile suit has been shown to it utmost ability either. In the real world, we don't worry about this kind of theoretical potential either.

Originally Posted by M_Flores

If I were to pick, I'd say Wing Zero. Because of the cheap tactic of being able to tuck the TBR under the shield while drawing out the beam saber - this is, IMO, an effective tactic because the user can fight a close combat battle while having the option of taking a quick pot shot at the enemy from a ready stance, plus the shield also covers and protects the rifle to some extent.

That's an interesting idea, but doesn't that also mean that any mobile suit that has fixed weapons would have a much greater advantage in melee combat as well?

Originally Posted by M_Flores

I haven't seen much of XX in action, but I assume that the TSC is a little slower and probably has to stand still to fire (I have absolutely no evidence to back this up though), while Zero has seen to do decent maneuvering while firing the rifle.

Not quite. Double X only has to stand still to charge up its twin satellite cannon, but it should be able to move around once it's fully charged up. This charge up process is quite slow; given the speed of light limitations, it takes around 12 seconds for the whole process if it's on Earth. The twin satellite cannon has an extreme range - it managed to paste targets thousands or tens of thousands of kilometers away, and it's power output seems vastly greater than that of any Gundam equipped weapon.

[Derringer]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Pick a side? What makes you think that I'm even interested in who'd win?

Because you bothered to come up with the scenario, and asked questions related to which suit's capabilities would offer the highest advantage and at which Lagrange point. Yes you are interested.

So, why don't you offer your advantage speculation since you seem to not be satisfied with ours.

But how can we be sure that the Zero system confers much of an advantage?

Because it is an advantage. When a normal soldier can suddenly react 10 times faster (courtesy of Trent's in-show comments), that's a significant advantage. If both pilots were highly proficient, well, now the other guy is even more highly proficient.

I believe that the Gundams in Wing were only hard to detect in the first half of the show. Nearer the end, the only one that was stated to have any significant stealth capabilities was Deathscythe.

They were hard to detect throughout the entire show. The properties of Gundanium are respective to the alloy itself, and not the mobile suit.

[M_Flores]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

That's an interesting idea, but doesn't that also mean that any mobile suit that has fixed weapons would have a much greater advantage in melee combat as well?

Now that you mention it, XX could use the same tactic as well with it's own rifle. Also, what fixed weapons are you talking about? Do you mean the TSCs and the chest weapons? IMO, the TSC's would have to take the time to flip out and since they're over-the-shoulder weapons, it might actually have a bigger tendency to miss on close range since the enemy can just duck. However, with the rifle under the shield tactic, one can saberlock, while the shield arm can take a pot shot at the leg, or at the cockpit or wherever while defending as well. Otherwise, we would have seen Freedom Gundam use full burst whenever it was saberlocked with Providence (which it didn't), so I guess XX's TSC cannons would be too long and bulky to use during a saberlock whereas the TBR (although not the smallest weapon around) is still compact enough to quickly throw in a shot with a quick flip of the shield arm. Although like I said, I guess XX (as well as almost every other Gundam with a rifle) can use this tactic - however, Zero's TBR is probably by far the more powerful handheld projectile weapon, which is still a slight advantage.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Not quite. Double X only has to stand still to charge up its twin satellite cannon, but it should be able to move around once it's fully charged up. This charge up process is quite slow; given the speed of light limitations, it takes around 12 seconds for the whole process if it's on Earth. The twin satellite cannon has an extreme range - it managed to paste targets thousands or tens of thousands of kilometers away, and it's power output seems vastly greater than that of any Gundam equipped weapon.

There we go. That's just the opening that the enemy needs. That 12 second (I assume this also varies with the location) window can be just enough for Wing Zero to stop XX from charging up, while it's rifle is ready sitting guarded by the shield.

You having said that, I guess once XX has charged its TSCs, Zero is pretty much toast, because since XX can move around once it's charged, it can close the distance to mid-range or close enough to the point that Zero wouldn't have enough time to dodge. (Which the same can also be said once Zero's TBR is ready).

I still put my bets on Zero though.

[monster]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

The Zero system's capability against Double X isn't necessary to figuring out what Wing Zero's overall performance, so it shouldn't be necessary for our purposes.

Just a thought, but I think M_Flores may have had it right when (s)he implied that the Zero System doesn't do as much to the mobile suit as it does to the way the pilot fights.

I don't think that these are much of a concern. A prototpye is developed to test an idea. Often, the designers will have very high expectations of their designs, but these expectations often don't pan out. The very reason for building prototypes is to work out what kind of flaws are inherent in a design and to determine whether it's suitable for mass production. Wing Zero most certainly fits well here because I don't think that the designers ever expected that the Zero system would drive people (even more) nuts.

That may be the case for most prototypes, but the scientists who designed it never did build the Zero System. And I don't think lack of recources prevented them from doing so. Which means they must've had an idea of how dangerous it can become (with the wrong pilot) and had no way of "fixing" it. Besides, other than people going nuts (which shouldn't be a problem in your scenario) there was never any other limitations/flaws that you could point specifically to the Zero System.

The possiblity that we've never seen the Zero system used to its full potential isn't really that important either. There's two reasons; the first is that we can only work with what we know, and the second is that it's quite likely that no mobile suit has been shown to it utmost ability either. In the real world, we don't worry about this kind of theoretical potential either.

Perhaps, but what we do know about the Zero System just isn't enough. There's a time when you can do the best you can with what you have, but there's also a time when you should realize that what you have isn't enough to go by and simply not do it.

Well, that's just my take on it. You yourself or others more knowledgeable/creative/imaginative than myself might actually find something to work with to get a definte answer on how much advantage the Zero System gives.

[Derringer]

Here's an article on MAHQ:

Originally Posted by Rei Murasame

I'd like to break the Zero system down in to several different modules, each with a different intended function and potential side effect.

At first, I was going to list its operation as a chain, a sequence of 'modules', but after a bit of thought, I realised that can't actually be how it works. I think it uses a processing ring, controlled by the AI. (I'll explain what I mean shortly).

Before I start though, I'll need to clarify that the Zero system can't make anyone do anything, it can only offer suggestions. It's also completely pragmatic, and will show primarily the best ways to win and win with the best outcome possible in respect to survival, unless you specify otherwise with your thoughts.

1. Zero System AI - the centre of the ring, decides on what 'output' to give, based on the information recieved from the other modules on the ring.
2. Environmental, situational, tactical, strategic. - Monitors the condition of the battlefield ect, and relays this data back to the AI.
3. Mobile Suit monitor - Monitors the condition and capabilities of the MS, and relays this data back to the AI.
4. Pilot monitor - Monitors the pilot's status.
5. Output - After querying 2, 3 and 4 continally, the AI formulates every feasible course of action, and presents them directly to your mind, sorted in order of logical effectiveness.

Where all the problems begin, is really in the content of the Output in #5. This is because, as the battlefield changes, options and courses of action expire, and Zero would need to continually update the pilot on the situation. This sounds alright, but in a life thretening situation, if a course of action expires, it may result in death, and I think it's at that point where the pilot panics and is unable to quickly make the choice (module #4 would know this) that Zero compels you to choose the best one by decieving you with 'hallucinations', which are tailored to elicit a swift choice. Basically, if you're in no mental state to make a choice, then Zero will trick you into choosing the one it thinks offers the best chance of survival. This isn't always good, as it could compromise the actual objective of the fight. All of the Gundam pilots in Gundam Wing, at one point or another suffer from this.

It's for this reason, that they say things like, "Keep your head on", "Don't let Zero control you.", "Remember the reason why you're fighting."

A strong pilot, can avoid the hallucinations and trickery, by remaining calm, and firmly validating every suggestion that Zero presents to him/her. As long as you keep in mind the reason you're fighting, you can impose conditions on what consitutes 'victory', and control the Zero System.

Example:
Let's say we're in a typical Gundam Wing type situation, piloting Wing Zero. You're faced with a Taurus, and there's a colony behind it at a distance. Zero shows you hundreds of solutions, these 2 being an example of 2 results (diverse):
1. Blast the Taurus with the twin buster rifle, its the fastest, safest way. However the colony becomes collateral damage.
--- A pilot who cares for the colony will need to dismiss this option quickly as 'not victory', and not even give it a millisecond more thought. Hesitation or panic however, will cause Zero to show you hallucinations (like the Taurus killing you) to make you just choose this option out of desperation.

2. Apply some thrust, draw the beam sabre, and ram it into the Taurus' torso.
--- A strong pilot would actively choose this, despite it being slower and potentially more risky, because he would mentally dictate to Zero, that the conditions for victory are the survival of both himself and the colony. A weak pilot wouldn't do this, and would be scared into choosing option #1 instead, to save his own skin quickly, because that's human instinct.

Now, imagine being presented with decisions like that, but more complicated, under combat stress, perpetually, and it becomes clear how difficult it might be to control something like that. Losing sight of your reason for fighting or your moral convictions for even a second could result in horrific reprocussions. (Quatre vs Mercurius & Vayate, Zechs vs Wufei)

On the flip-side, if Zero is 'convinced' from early on that certain options are unchoosable, that under stress it may actually force you to obey your own 'morality' inadvertently, by pursuading you to choose what you thought was 'a victory'. A great example of this phenomenon, is in Duo Maxwell's first encounter with the Zero System with Lt. Trent's Taurus Mobile Dolls. In his subconcious, he was concerned about Hilde, and Zero knew this. So it aided him as he wiped out tons of Tauruses with the Buster Rifle, but on the last one that was in front of the colony (when he panicked), it showed him a hallucination of what would happen if he chose to use the Buster Rifle (the death of Hilde) as a way of forcing him to follow the path that'd lead what he defined as 'victory' in his mind, which is the survival of himself and Hilde. By showing him her death, it scared him into choosing the beam sabre in a snap decision (the part where he screams "NO!!"). And lo and behold, when the hallucination ends, he finds that Zero's mind-game has caused him to choose to use the sabre.

Duo's reaction was funny.
"Wha... what the hell is this...!?"
He deemed it too dangerous to continue using, so I guess he didn't trust himself enough to master it.

The last thing I need to cover, is why the Epyon has a 'modified Zero System', and how it was able to 'predict the future' within a reasonable margin of error.

At Luxembourg, Trieze appears to have taken the Zero System and placed it in Epyon, and modified it so that it'll deliver output based on a longer projected time period. This makes the Epyon less tactical, and more biased towards being strategic first. (Heero shows this when he uses it). Arguably, this also makes its output slightly more lagging than Zero's, because in a situation where a quick tactical decision is needed, it'll have to switch from long blocks of data, to short blocks of data - wheras Zero works the opposite way around, and tends to operate more tactically (short blocks) unless you deliberately request that it do otherwise. Each has its own merit, as Zero is well suited to the needs of the Gundam pilots, and Epyon is well suited to the needs of well... people like Treize and Zechs.

So how does Epyon read the far future then? Well, it'd need to have 'Environmental and Situational' data for the entire Earthsphere being fed into it, as well as past events and trends, and the mind of someone tied to all of those. Under house arrest at Luxembourg, Trieze would have a lot of time to show Epyon everything that's happened so far, as well as the means to hook Epyon up to all events taking place in the earthsphere. Then, using extremely long blocks of data, he could get into Epyon, and ask it to project for him all the choices and their outcomes, with respect to what his mind would consider a 'victory'/'ideal outcome'. (sounds a lot like Zero when I described it above, just with long blocks now). Epyon then proceeded to show him all the general choices and its predicted long-term results of those choices - one of them being the Episode 49 and 50 that we know so well, which is the outcome that Trieze liked the most, despite the fact that he'd actually have to sacrifice himself to Wufei to achieve it.

In this way, Trieze may be considered a type of 'Jesus', which is interesting seeing as he told Heero that Epyon 'might be a god'. At any rate, Trieze resigned himself to that fate, because from what Epyon showed him, having a war with White Fang and dying, was the only way to bring peace.

With that underway, Epyon was then given to Heero Yuy, who entered its cockpit in slight confusion, and Epyon responded to this by showing him his future, and his death, and other scenarios, which completely blew his mind, and affected his decisions as well.

After that, Epyon ended up in Zechs' hands, and we can imagine that by now it wouldn't even need to do much to keep the ball of 'fate' rolling.

Epyon was in the hands of all 3 of the major players at the end of Gundam Wing, and since they all were hoping for the same peaceful result, they all gridlocked themselves into the ideal future that Epyon showed them, by avoiding the 'bad' outcomes, and taking the actions that'd result in the Episide 49 & 50 that we know. (and also in the long term, the Endless Waltz that we know). And in that way, Epyon's prediction was correct from the start, seeing as it would've shown Treize what Heero and Zechs were likely to do upon seeing what Epyon had to offer - and that's part of the reason why Trieze felt the need to give Heero the Epyon at the time that he did.

And I think that's basically how Epyon operates - its the same as the Zero System in all respects, except that its redisposed to looking further when making its analysis and predictions.

Heero: "Do you think you've created a god?"
Trieze: "...maybe I have."

I think that's all for now, I can't think of anything that I missed.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Derringer

Because you bothered to come up with the scenario, and asked questions related to which suit's capabilities would offer the highest advantage and at which Lagrange point. Yes you are interested.

"I'm less interested in which mobile suit will win as I am in what arguments can be made about them."

You're projecting; I've already stated what I was most interested in. Also, take a look at the questions that I posed:
"Is there enough data to determine which has the advantage?
What would be the optimal tactics of the two machines?
What difference, if any, would there be if this duel took place at the L1 or L2 points"

It should be fairly obvious that I'm more concerned with thet discussion (and logic) of the answers than in the answers themselves.

Originally Posted by Derringer

So, why don't you offer your advantage speculation since you seem to not be satisfied with ours.

If you absolutely insist, I don't think that we know enough about Wing Zero's and, especially, Double X's performance for any conclusive analysis. Part of my motive in the first place was to find out if anyone had made (or knew of) any useful information in this regard.

Originally Posted by Derringer

Because it is an advantage. When a normal soldier can suddenly react 10 times faster (courtesy of Trent's in-show comments), that's a significant advantage. If both pilots were highly proficient, well, now the other guy is even more highly proficient.

Since when did people react 10 times faster; do you have any direct quotes?

Originally Posted by Derringer

They were hard to detect throughout the entire show. The properties of Gundanium are respective to the alloy itself, and not the mobile suit.

In that case, can you refresh my memory and tell me when in the last 15 episodes or so that anyone had difficulty finding the Gundams?

Originally Posted by M_Flores

Now that you mention it, XX could use the same tactic as well with it's own rifle. Also, what fixed weapons are you talking about? Do you mean the TSCs and the chest weapons? IMO, the TSC's would have to take the time to flip out and since they're over-the-shoulder weapons, it might actually have a bigger tendency to miss on close range since the enemy can just duck.

That's pretty much the kind of fixed weapons I was referring to, basically anything that could be brought to bear while the arms are engaged. Any over-the-shoulder weapons can be left in the deployed mode for the duration of a combat, so time shouldn't be much of an issue. I wasn't really referring to Double X with this tactic in mind, since keeping a full cannon charge is both impractical, and probably a very bad idea. However, the twin satellite cannnon is powerful enough, and has a large enough beam thatI don't think that dodging is much of an option when it's fired (Admittedly, it's rarely fired at close ranges, and never at point-blank ranges).

Originally Posted by M_Flores

However, with the rifle under the shield tactic, one can saberlock, while the shield arm can take a pot shot at the leg, or at the cockpit or wherever while defending as well. Otherwise, we would have seen Freedom Gundam use full burst whenever it was saberlocked with Providence (which it didn't)

Actually, now that I think about it, that's exactly what Kira should have done to maximise Freedom's advantages. He sort of showed how to pull it off in the battle of Orb in Destiny.

Originally Posted by M_Flores

Although like I said, I guess XX (as well as almost every other Gundam with a rifle) can use this tactic - however, Zero's TBR is probably by far the more powerful handheld projectile weapon, which is still a slight advantage.

Unless Wing Zero's armor offers significant protection against Double X's regular beam rifle, I don't think that weapon power is much of an issue.

Originally Posted by M_Flores

There we go. That's just the opening that the enemy needs. That 12 second (I assume this also varies with the location) window can be just enough for Wing Zero to stop XX from charging up, while it's rifle is ready sitting guarded by the shield.

The charge-up time really leaves Double X as a sitting duck. However, given sufficient distance, it should still be able to get a shot or two off.

Originally Posted by monstert

Just a thought, but I think M_Flores may have had it right when (s)he implied that the Zero System doesn't do as much to the mobile suit as it does to the way the pilot fights.

Maybe, but it'd be no different qualitatively than say a new HUD for modern fighter planes. If a system only affected the pilot, and conferred no measurable advantage, then the natural conclusion would be that it confers no advantage period.

Originally Posted by monstert

That may be the case for most prototypes, but the scientists who designed it never did build the Zero System. And I don't think lack of recources prevented them from doing so. Which means they must've had an idea of how dangerous it can become (with the wrong pilot) and had no way of "fixing" it. Besides, other than people going nuts (which shouldn't be a problem in your scenario) there was never any other limitations/flaws that you could point specifically to the Zero System.

That argument doesn't really work. After all, they could have built Wing Zero without the Zero system as well. If I recall correctly, they decided against it, and shelved the project, because it was considered unnecessary.

Originally Posted by monstert

Perhaps, but what we do know about the Zero System just isn't enough. There's a time when you can do the best you can with what you have, but there's also a time when you should realize that what you have isn't enough to go by and simply not do it.

I'm not so sure about that. After all, either a technology confers an advantage or it doesn't. If it does confer a significant advantage, then it should be fairly telling; on the other hand, if we can't tell if it is truly advantageous, then it most likely isn't significant. This is exactly how we treat real technologies as well.

Originally Posted by Derringer

Here's an article on MAHQ...

While Rei Murasame made an interesting post, notice that she concerned herself with discussing the Zero system's processes. The post doesn't say anything about how well it actually works, and she's just speculating given the same information that we have.

[Derringer]

Well, I'm done seeing as how I don't have the Wing DVDs with me to re-look things up.

[M_Flores]

My conclusion to the Zero System would have to be that it gives no real advantage to the MS itself unless we're talking about pilots. The Zero System I believe does not make the MS any better than its own full capabilities, whether the Zero System is on or off, the Gundam will always only have TBR, machine guns and sabers as combat options.
What if XX's pilot was a super newtype coordinator thing whatever and can predict opponents moves just as good? Again, I conclude that the Zero gives no real advantage should we assume both MSs are performing at their absolute peak regardless of pilot.

[RX-78GP04G Gerbera]

Well, since that has been taken care of, how about some more challenges?

Like F91 Gundam F91 vs. XM-07C Vigna Zirah

[4Tran]

I missed this earlier:

Originally Posted by M_Flores

My conclusion to the Zero System would have to be that it gives no real advantage to the MS itself unless we're talking about pilots. The Zero System I believe does not make the MS any better than its own full capabilities, whether the Zero System is on or off, the Gundam will always only have TBR, machine guns and sabers as combat options.

I'm not so sure about that. Technically, an advanced control system/ergonomics wouldn't do anything to improve a vehicle's firepower or acceleration, etc., but it would still have a noticeable affect on combat. Often, something as simple as superior gunsights can make for a very marked improvement. The question is therefore how much the Zero system improves Wing Zero.

Originally Posted by M_Flores

What if XX's pilot was a super newtype coordinator thing whatever and can predict opponents moves just as good? Again, I conclude that the Zero gives no real advantage should we assume both MSs are performing at their absolute peak regardless of pilot.

In a scenario with equivalent pilots, it wouldn't make any difference: if Double X's pilot were a newtype, then Wing Zero's pilot would be as well. It would be the difference in the machines' respective capabilities that would end up telling.

EDIT: Newtype powers seem to fall in the same category as the Zero system - it's supposed to provide an advantage, but this advantage is undefined. I'm not sure that they would provide some sort of overwhelming advantage.

[RX-78GP04G Gerbera]

How about the final 2 Zanscare MS of Victory? (excluding the Zanspine and Rig Ring)

ZMT-S33S Gottrlatan vs. ZMT-S34S Rig Contio

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by RX-78GP04G Gerbera

ZMT-S33S Gottrlatan vs. ZMT-S34S Rig Contio

These two are similar enough that it's just about impossible for one to be definitively better than the other. Rig Contio has a slight, almost insignificant, acceleration advantage, but even that's offset by the Gottrlatan's advantages of slightly smaller target profile and higher mass. Even their armaments are fairly equal. I guess it's just a question of whether one prefers the big gun/beam tonfa/missile pod combination or the big launcher/shot claw/torso-mounted beam gun combination. Either way, they represent some of the most deadly mobile suits in the UC universe.

[kiramuro]

Originally Posted by RX-78GP04G Gerbera

How about the final 2 Zanscare MS of Victory? (excluding the Zanspine and Rig Ring)

ZMT-S33S Gottrlatan vs. ZMT-S34S Rig Contio

Can't really say which one is better based on so little evidence. Gottrlatan looks cooler plus Katejina is the pilot yeah lets go with her as the winner.

[RX-78GP04G Gerbera]

Yeah, I like to come up with these kinds of matches where it's difficult to immediately determine a winner =) Even by stats and such, it's hard (making it more fun to discuss, lol).

Of course, making others that are more "distant" in terms of abilities and such is fun as well with the right pilots. ^_^

[Zero system]

How about Orb's MVF-M11c Murasame vs Titan's ORX-005 Gaplant

[RX-78GP04G Gerbera]

If you go just based on specs and/or animation, then the Murasame would probably win. The Gaplant is very lacking in weaponry; limited to just its 2 beam rifles on its arms and 2 beam sabers...though that is usually made up for a bit with its speed and mobility (something that "normal" pilots can't handle well).

[4Tran]

I haven't been able to find any reliable performance figures for the Gaplant, but it would be reasonable to assume that it can generate an acceleration of around 2g (by way of comparison, Zeta Gundam would be at 1.81g, and Nu Gundam would be at 1.55g). Murasames, like most Destiny line mobile suits, probably have an acceleration of 3.5-4g. There's another whopping difference between the two machines: the Gaplant is a much bigger mobile suit, and will therefore have a much greater target profile. These points conspire to put the Gaplant at a major disadvantage in a one-on-one duel.

Originally Posted by RX-78GP04G Gerbera

...though that is usually made up for a bit with its speed and mobility (something that "normal" pilots can't handle well).

I wonder why this is: regular fighter planes generally have a maximum g-load of -3/+9.5g, so unless a vehicle is poorly designed, there should be no reason for a decent pilot to be unable to handle g-forces less than this. Is there anything unusual about the Gaplant that makes it less effective in the hands of lesser pilots?

[RX-78GP04G Gerbera]

Dunno why...just going by what I was able to dig up on it besides MAHQ and they tend to say the same thing...saying that one of the Gaplant's disadvantages was that only a Cyber-Newtype or the physically strongest pilots could handle it...guess it goes to show that printed stats can't be completely relied on all the time.

The Gaplant is pretty much like its Kai counterpart...meant mainly for high speed hit-and-run type of tactics and not really one on one MS combat. Maybe if it was equipped similar to the Kai (with scattering beam cannons, missile launchers and such) and not JUST beam rifles, it might do a little better.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by RX-78GP04G Gerbera

...guess it goes to show that printed stats can't be completely relied on all the time.

That's true. In this case, the specifications don't show the Gaplant to have very good performance at all, which is directly contradicted by the show itself. Since all the specs should be based on the shows, I defer to the show as the more reliable source. As a nod to realism, the highest performing machine should have, at best, double the acceleration of a standard design of its generation. I assume that the Gaplant is a high-performance mobile suit/armor, hence an acceleration of ~2g would be both consistent with its portrayal, and conveniently, is about double that of a Hizack. Going by the same assumptions, a Murasame can't trail Freedom's performance by too much, so an acceleration of 3.5-4g seems to make sense. This too is consistent with the animation since Destiny mobile suits don't seem to have any trouble attaining flight by using brute-force thrust.

Originally Posted by RX-78GP04G Gerbera

The Gaplant is pretty much like its Kai counterpart...meant mainly for high speed hit-and-run type of tactics and not really one on one MS combat. Maybe if it was equipped similar to the Kai (with scattering beam cannons, missile launchers and such) and not JUST beam rifles, it might do a little better.

Having a better variety of weapons couldn't hurt, but I don't think that it'd help a lot either. The Gaplant has sufficient firepower to destroy a Murasame, and it could do so with one or two hits; hence firepower isn't really the problem. Its main problem is that it's designed to use its superior speed to defeat slower opponents. However, the Gaplant is the slower machine in this case, so what's normally it's greatest advantage is all of a sudden a disadvantage.

It would be the same problem for real-life planes. For example, the Me-262's greatest advantage was its speed compared to its prop-driven opponents (disregarding the fact that it normally faced off against bombers). It still stood a good chance against its contemporaries despite having all sorts of engine troubles, and lack of maneuverability. Pit it against a MiG-15, and all those advantages disappear, and the Me-262 would have the combat performance of a beached whale in comparison.

In addition, even if the two machines were perfectly matched, the Gaplant is a target twice the size of a Murasame. If everything else was even, being that much easier to hit is pretty much a death sentence.


As an aside, the Gaplant is probably my favorite mobile suit in Zeta, but the early-UC designs just don't have the performance to keep up with Destiny-era mobile suits.

[RX-78GP04G Gerbera]

Yeah...makes UC a bit more "realistic" IMO...Destiny leans more towards Super Robot over logic/science/etc, lol.