Madoka Magica - Spoilers & Speculation

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

You could be reading too much into it. Kyube needs an MG. He could have meant it more like "a girl who wants to contract with me". Yeah, he didn't say that, but you have to be careful picking out things, especially when we're dealing with a translation that's no an exact science.

You asked, I answered. I don't know if it means what it seems, but a hint is a hint. It may come to nothing, but you can't just dismiss it because it doesn't work with your take on the series. Let's wait and see I suppose.

[Jimmy C]

Here's a question, would Kyubei be willing to grant wishes that leave a girl unable to become a magical girl?
For example, an auto accident, both parents are dead and the daughter is moments away from dying herself. She wishes her parents hadn't died, but nothing for herself.
If he can't or won't grant such wishes, then it's possible he won't grant a timeloop/reset wish, because the girl won't be a magical girl at that point in the past.
In fact, if he grants a reset wish, he'd have to give the same girl two wishes for her to become a magical girl. One to cause the reset, and again in the past to actually make her a magical girl. That has to be against the rules, right?
If that's the case, then there can't have been a reset after the opening scene of the series.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

Here's a question, would Kyubei be willing to grant wishes that leave a girl unable to become a magical girl?
For example, an auto accident, both parents are dead and the daughter is moments away from dying herself. She wishes her parents hadn't died, but nothing for herself.
If he can't or won't grant such wishes, then it's possible he won't grant a timeloop/reset wish, because the girl won't be a magical girl at that point in the past.
In fact, if he grants a reset wish, he'd have to give the same girl two wishes for her to become a magical girl. One to cause the reset, and again in the past to actually make her a magical girl. That has to be against the rules, right?
If that's the case, then there can't have been a reset after the opening scene of the series.

Interesting take. This would rule out Homura wishing Madoka to have a normal life and not be an MG.

It's frustrating because we don't know the limits of wishing. The silence on the subject is deafening.

[Dark Wing]

Well I remember Kyuube saying in episode 2 when asked by one of the girls what they can wish for he did say the skies the limit...that being said maybe anything your heart desires just that no one actually thinks about their wish before asking for it.

[Decagon]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

The power only needs recharging if it's used. If there are 3 MG's in an area, and and one of them takes it down, then it means the other two didn't need to expend any power in the first place. A grief seed can apparently be used for more than one charge, so even two MG's fighting together can still get something out of it.

Hell, if one MG used 100 MP to take down a witch, and gets a 200 MP grief seed... then two MG's could each use 50 MP to take down the witch. Same MP used, but greater safety in numbers.

Mami could have easily wanted something like this deep inside; after all, she told Madoka about how alone she felt, and was very happy to have Madoka as a friend/MG comrade.

I can agree that more MGs fighting a witch can provide safety, but Grief Seeds' drop rate seem to be subject to a RNG of sorts. If the model of safety in numbers was favorable, I think there would have been stronger intraterritorial affiliations developed between MGs rather than seeing the solo agents, roaming and stationary, that we do now.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Perhaps because he knew Mami was nearby, and could demonstrate and explain better. After all, what better way to make sure they understood the details then someone who had been going through it; a previous customer, if you will. Perhaps you might have a bit of a point here, but past this, Kyube has put no pressure on either of the girls, and has even gone out of his way to warn them about what they are getting into, and to consider their wish carefully. When he leaves, he merely apologizes for getting them involved, and doesn't tempt them with anything.

So I'd have to say the overwhelming majority of evidence suggest Kyube isn't really evil. He's just doing a job. Hell, he's providing humanity with a way to save themselves from witches, and we can only bash him for it? Perhaps this is the only way (barring a wish that eliminates all witches and prevents future ones).

Yes, being an MG until you die seems bad... but honestly speaking, if someone offered you superpowers and said they needed you to fight crime, you'd take it. You know you would; many of us have fantasized about being a superhero from when we were kids. We've watched many shows about heroes who continue the tireless fight against crime, and we call them heroes for a reason.

You act like Kyube is forcing people into it, when he's not. He's warning them upfront what they are getting into. It's up to each person to decide. Perhaps in some cases like Mami it may seem a bit bad, but I consider that he gave her a chance at a new lease on life. I think everyone here would make the same choice.

I think this comes down to our differences in personality than anything else. Through various personal reasons, I am very suspicious of people I first meet until I have established trust.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

In reading through this thread, it's clear that a lot of people are making assumptions. And that's fine - this is the "Spoilers & Speculation" thread after all. In order to make speculations, you sometimes have to factor in an assumption or two.

However, some people here are treating their assumptions as undisputed fact, and I think that creates "blind spots" and overly rigid thinking for people who aren't willing to consider that their assumptions may simply be wrong.


Decagon, has it been stated that it's absolutely 100% impossible to wipe out all the witches, one-by-one? Has it been stated that it's absolutely 100% impossible to "win the war", once and for all? It may be very, very unlikely, but if it's not 100% impossible, there is at least some chance that a magical girl could come out of this alive.

Where is the fault in saying that an MG contract is one to spend the rest of your life fighting with death awaiting at the end? That whole interpretation was based on Homura's fatalistic view of a MG's life as her comments from the last episode tell us she has seen many die over her time involved in the magical world. The argument you are referencing has nothing to do with if a MG has light at the end of the tunnel, but whether or not that sort of contract with its costs can designate Kyubey's morality and neutrality in his pursuit of creating MGs.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Indeed, Kyubey's substantial interest in Madoka suggests to me that one of two ideas is going through his mind:

1) "This girl has enough potential that she could tip the balance of power in the favor of magical girls against the witches! She has the potential to win this war for my side once and for all!"

2) "This girl has enough potential that she could be of great use to me in achieving my secret ultimate goal!"

Kyubey is treating Madoka as "special", very special. Why would he do that if she would just be Recruit 21508 in an inevitably endless war that's hence ultimately meaningless and nothing more than a hopeless meat-grinder? So I'm inclined to think that there must be a way to "win the war" or "break/beat the system", or Kyubey wouldn't be that interested in her. Even if he has a grand nefarious scheme, that scheme must involve changing the status quo in some drastic way that benefits him, which still points to the magical girl/witch system not being entirely unalterable.


It could be that the magical girl/witch system is like an arms race. The side that gets the most powerful arm wins. Or, perhaps Kyubey knows that by getting a magical girl as powerful as Madoka on his side, he ups the ante in the arms race, forcing things closer to a head.

I agree with a number of your interpretations from post 133, so I'm not sure if this was meant to be an example of speculation, but I'll bite. If this was the case, he could have remained near her and console her rather than leave. He may have even suggested to her to revive Mami, as Kaijo noted earlier. Assuming she would have been some incredible asset he couldn't let alone, his brief departure could be interpreted as a scheme to push a reaction (ie, losing a wish). Assuming he generally felt like giving them space and was going to leave for good, then some may claim his remarks about Madoka's potential earlier were meant to coax her and that she was not that unique in her power potential.





My point of contention has been the MG contract, which I see as this:
Benefit: Ability to use magic, save people/kill witches who hurt people, a wish
Costs: Risk one's life fighting witches
Hidden cost(!): Not having a wish granted

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by Decagon

Assuming she would have been some incredible asset he couldn't let alone, his brief departure could be interpreted as a scheme to push a reaction (ie, losing a wish). Assuming he generally felt like giving them space and was going to leave for good, then some may claim his remarks about Madoka's potential earlier were meant to coax her and that she was not that unique in her power potential.

Remember when he left to find someone to take over Mami's area he said " Our time together was short but enjoyable. Thank you, Madoka." but nothing to Sayaka which would suggest that he maybe regretting not getting Madoka more then Sayaka. This may hit that Madoka dose have great power sleeping within like Kyuube said earlier.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Decagon

Where is the fault in saying that an MG contract is one to spend the rest of your life fighting with death awaiting at the end? That whole interpretation was based on Homura's fatalistic view of a MG's life as her comments from the last episode tell us she has seen many die over her time involved in the magical world. The argument you are referencing has nothing to do with if a MG has light at the end of the tunnel, but whether or not that sort of contract with its costs can designate Kyubey's morality and neutrality in his pursuit of creating MGs.

Well, a big part of the reason why I made that argument is because I see people acting like Kyubey is this terrible, awful being just because he's creating Magical Girls to fight withes with.

Now, Kyubey may very well end up being a major (if not main) antagonist in this. This would certainly be the case if he's some cold puppet master arming both sides (both magical girls and witches).

But if all he's doing is contracting magical girls in order to deal with the threat of witches, I really don't think that makes him a horrible villain.

In fact, how's this for a comparison?: Kyubey might be to magical girls what Batman is to his various Robins.


Both involve teenagers in dangerous life and death situations (Robin Number 2, by the way, infamously died in a very horrific fashion himself, not significantly better than how Mami was taken down).

Both are fighting seemingly endless battles against very dark and entrenched foes, and entice teenagers to join them in that.

Both give significant blessings to the teenagers they involve (for the Robins they get to live in a gorgeous mansion with billionaire playboy Bruce Wayne and play with all sorts of wondrous gadgets and machines, for the magical girls they get a wish and magical girl superpowers)

However, neither Batman nor Kyubey ever truly retire, and so the teenagers they involve never really get to retire either.

So... is Batman a totally terrible guy for being a lot like Kyubey?

Just something to think about.

I agree with a number of your interpretations from post 133,

Hey, thanks.

Well, sorry if I came off a bit too strongly.

My point of contention has been the MG contract, which I see as this:
Benefit: Ability to use magic, save people/kill witches who hurt people, a wish
Costs: Risk one's life fighting witches
Hidden cost(!): Not having a wish granted

If that's the hidden cost, then yeah, it's not a fair contract of course.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

So... is Batman a totally terrible guy for being a lot like Kyubey?

No, because Batman actually fights along side his Robins, whereas Kyubey just watch from a safe distance, and doesn't even look sorry when his "Robins" end up kicking the bucket.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

No, because Batman actually fights along side his Robins, whereas Kyubey just watch from a safe distance, and doesn't even look sorry when his "Robins" end up kicking the bucket.

Can Kyubey fight? He didn't seem to be able to put up much of a fight against Homura back in Episode 1.

And so he was a little cold in how he reacted to Mami's death. So was Homura, frankly, but I don't see people making a big deal about that...


Look, I'm not saying that Kyubey is Mr. Nice Guy, but I don't think that what he's done on-screen so far is enough to make him a villain.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Can Look, I'm not saying that Kyubey is Mr. Nice Guy, but I don't think that what he's done on-screen so far is enough to make him a villain.

You asked if Batman was as bad as him. I sad no, and proved my point. Is he a villain, the antagonist? Don't know, but we weren't talking about that.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Look, I'm not saying that Kyubey is Mr. Nice Guy, but I don't think that what he's done on-screen so far is enough to make him a villain.

Shhh! You're asking people to keep their minds open about motivations and such! People here have already determined everything we need to know, despite it not being said or shown.

Edit: the Batman analogy isn't perfect, but you did well getting the point across. We don't think of Batman as evil because he has Robins fighting bad guys.

Kyube is more akin to a military general/recruiter. He sees the overall tactics, but it isn't his job to be on the front lines. He's better suited to the backline, moving up troops where he can. If he's helping to fight a war to save humanity, can we really call him evil?

[creb]

If Kyuube warns Sayaka that the new girl is going to end her, then I might think he's not a "villain". It'll be interesting to see what Kyuube does in the next episode. For such a passive character, one can't help but feel he's this evil puppet-master pulling everyone's strings, girls and witches alike.

The fact that new girl had no qualms telling Kyuube her plans for Sayaka sort of makes me think that at the very least, he's got his own agenda that does not place the welfare of any individual magical girl very high. That might not make him evil, but it certainly doesn't make him a shining bastion of righteousness either.

[Kaijo]

It could also mean it doesn't matter. Perhaps Kyoko is hoping Kyube will tell Sayaka, and the new Magical girl will leave rather than choose to fight. Even if he tells... so what? Kyoko was prepared for a fight anyway.

But yes, it will be interesting to see what Kyube does.

[Wakan Tanka]

What's with the blue&green bottles....? shouldn't the man in the factory use the fatal one (the green bottle) instead of using both of 'em at once....this what Madoka's mom said.

[PzIVf3]

Spoiler for Clear Scan :

[BaKaBaKaOtaKu]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

Here's a question, would Kyubei be willing to grant wishes that leave a girl unable to become a magical girl?

i say,that is a pretty good point. now, people here, can we explore on jim's observation..i want to know what might be homura's wish if the reset theory is forfeited.oh wait, the Opening scene might be a sneak peek to the near-end of the series..meaning,what we're watching will lead to the prologue..XD

[panzerfan]

Current assumptions about Kyubey rest on very important matter of what exactly Kyubey is in relation to the current catastrophe, this spectre of witches.

I stated in prior discussion that that:

C. Assuming that Kyubey does not really have such an arrangement at all.
1. Kyubey is the creator of this system of equilibrium between witches and magical girls.
2. Kyubey is merely an enforcer of a pre-existing system of equilibrium.
a. Kyubey is an arbiter of Ex factis jus oritur.
3. Kyubey is thrusted into this contingency of sorts.
a. The work of unknown perpetrator(s) is the casus belli for this conflict between magical girls and witches.
b. Kyubey is simply responding to events beyond that of his control.

This perception of good vs that of evil rests heavily in to where does Kyubey stand on this subject matter. For all the concerns of us, the observers, Kyubey if acting for the greater good as a utilitarian against the blight of witches, he would be sufficiently just morally.

Even so, I have serious doubt as to whether if it is actually morally just to prevent witches to claim their victims. Is it like the old folklore in denying Hades what is rightfully his to claim when you would exorcise these witches from the mortal plane?

Come to think of it, it might be moot to look into this if Kyubey's a moral Nihilist.

@Jimmy_C: methink it can even be Sayaka channeling a certain Emiya Shirou/Archer before going up against destiny.

[Jimmy C]

So far, every episode title has been a spoken line in the episode itself, usually in an unexpected way.
Everyone's expecting Sayaka to say ep5's, "There's no way I'll regret it."

I'm thinking it'll be Kyoko saying it to Sayaka, right before delivering her killing blow.

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

So far, every episode title has been a spoken line in the episode itself, usually in an unexpected way.
Everyone's expecting Sayaka to say ep5's, "There's no way I'll regret it."

I'm thinking it'll be Kyoko saying it to Sayaka, right before delivering her killing blow.

Or it could be the other way around...

[Jimmy C]

Do you really see Sayaka being able to kick Kyoko's ass at this time?