[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by RandomUser

Okay I will read the manga to clear some of my many doubts.
Ryukishi it was so hard to explain the meta-world in a human way for the VN readoers?

He wanted us to reason things up... the problem is that he ended up leaving so many possible interpretations open that it got confusing. It also didn't help that some stuffs are likely tied to Japanese culture but harder to work out for us western.

Originally Posted by RandomUser

Almost everyone hates George, my reasons for that are:

Spoiler for episode 6-8:

Originally Posted by RandomUser

1) A possible pedophile/lolicon: Remember when did he fell in love with Shanon.

Re-reading I think the idea isn't that he fell in love for Shannon when she was a child... is that at 18 he was persuaded that each female had to fall for him and felt affronted when Shannon didn't. In fact even if he compares his feelings to 'having his girlfriend stolen for him' he admits back then he wasn't in love with Shannon and at first he just resented her for not loving him.
Likely, although he wanted her to fall for him he didn't mean to fall for her... he ended up falling in love with her only after really trying to get close to her... which happened much later as Jessica said that even though she believed Shannon always crushed on George (it was Battler, Jessica, Battler) they started dating only by around a year... and we also know that Shannon began to notice George only in 1984.

By the time Shannon is 16 (1986) Shannon is technically old enough to get married (if she has the permission of her parents or whoever replaces them) so George can feel fully legittimate in getting engaged with her.

On a sidenote though I don't really like how Umineko had the whole group being pretty young, not only in regards to George and his interest for Shannon but also in regards to Battler's promise, to Shannon's feelings of love for Battler, to Ange hurting Maria...

While yes, they're responsible for the way they hurt others... they're minors. It's adults who should be responsible for them while here we've adults washing their hands clean and children being called to act responsibly.

Originally Posted by RandomUser

2) A petty loser: He was jealous of Battler when Battler/Shanon were an obvious couple.

I think Ryukishi's idea with George was to show a socially awkward boy with his own 'dark sides'. George does what his overly exigent parents say but he's not apprecciated by his peers.
Battler and Jessica always keep improper behaviour and yet they've plenty of friends.

George is hurt by how his efforts aren't rewarded and, as almost everyone in Umineko, takes it out on someone else, namely Battler (and partially Shannon) who's, as usual not deserving to be mistreated.

George is, after all, Eva's son. Eva never managed to swallow the fact that Kinzo chose Krauss over her and likely ended up shaping George in such way. George is better than her but he still has her character's flaws.

Originally Posted by RandomUser

3) A petty winner: After dating Shanon, he still had some resentment against Battler, and he even was shoving in his face: "Battler you missed playing with us all this years and because of that you lost Shanon jajajajajajja".

The general idea is that George is still insecure. You see him as a winner as he gets the girl but he doesn't see himself as such.
Till the end he's afraid Battler will whoop the girl from under his nose.
And in a way George is right as not only Sayo never got over Battler and wanted HIM and not George to save her but the manga confirmed the two would be capable to hit off again if Sayo wasn't suicidal as in those 6 years Battler hadn't changed much (he just got stronger and taller... which however is usually a thing that owuld play in his favour).

Originally Posted by RandomUser

4) An obsesive (don't know how to write this word) lover: Sayo I order you to accept the ring. At least he didn't forced her to put in on the wedding finger.

I agree with you that the whole way with which George handles Sayo is unpleasant. I've hard time reading it in the VN. There's to say though that:

- George is persuaded he's humouring her. Shannon acts as if she would like to do certain things but she's obliged not to do them unless she's ordered (for example when Battler tells her to slap him if he were to attempt to molest her...) so George persuades himself what he's doing is in order to make her comfortable. He's one who tends to humour others in place of instead doing the right thing (he doesn't try to shake Sayo off of her 'I need you to order me' idea or from her furniture complex and play along with Maria's witch obsession instead of helping her to overcome it).

- George doesn't mean it but he's so used at the environment he's in, an environment in which Sayo is a servant, that ends up handling her as such instead than viewing her as his equal. He ends up confusing supportive with submissive.

Originally Posted by RandomUser

5) He is a coward who can only kill kids, stated by Maria.

Honestly I thought that was because he doesn't have the means to kill an adult not because he lacks in courage.

Still the whole thing don't really sit well with me. Between Battler (who's labelled as a kid) or also Jessica and Natsuhi or Kumasawa, it would be much easier to kill Natsuhi or Kumasawa, despite the two of them being adults, because they're rather weak and slow. Battler is specifically stated as rather strong and fast and apparently, even if weaker than Battler and likely George as well, Jessica is strong and fast too. Maybe George is stronger than them but they can still put up a fight.

Kumasawa is old, weak and slow. It would require very little effort to kill her.
Be it strength or courage, Kumasawa is an easier target.

Originally Posted by RandomUser

6) Ange considered him very creepy for some reason. Maybe it's relationed with motives 1) and 5).

Nope. It's explained that Ange doesn't consider HIM specifically creepy, but the type of person he is.

".........I sort of understand. People like Onii-chan and Jessica onee-chan can get along with anyone whether that person's a boy or a girl. ......I hate to say it, but I find guys who act too polite...a bit creepy. ......It's like they're virgins trying too hard or something..."

Originally Posted by RandomUser

7) A very jealous man again: He, who is supposed to be the adult good at playing with kids, immediately lost against Battler in getting along with Maria and he was so jealous of that.

The funny thing is that George is no adult. Just because he's 23 and legally adult this doesn't mean he's mature. He has an inferiority complex toward Battler that he never overcame and Battler is still showing him that he's actually inferior.

George is immature, his speechs in which he tries to act mature are terrible and in a way even the fact that he's always grouped with the kids tell us he's no grown up yet.

Think at how Eva still resents Krauss and ends up resenting Jessica as well.
How Kyrie hates Battler whose only sin is that she assumes him to be Asumu's son.
How Kasumi resents Ange for being Kyrie's son.

And Eva, Kyrie and Kasumi are all adults and supposedly more mature than George. Yet, they share with him an inferiority complex and resentment that still lingers in them. And they take it out on someone innocent and unrelated.

Originally Posted by RandomUser

Even Will (and maybe Ryukishi) hated him, because he purposely omitted the answer of his death in the answer chapter.

Will didn't hate him. He answered only to the question Clair made him.

Personally I get the feeling Ryukishi liked George but maybe it's just me.

Originally Posted by RandomUser

There is even a theory about him hiding the letter from Battler to Shanon due to jealousy, but it doesn't have enough hint for that, it was just speculated for the massive George hating, again almost everyone hates George.

In truth it was suggested by Ryukishi during an interview... because it was George who handed the letters around and therefore this made him suspicious. Note that Ryukishi suggested many theories for why Sayo didn't get her letter so he wasn't trying to single out George on purpose, George was merely a possibility and so he mentioned him.

Technically even Kyrie was suspicious as she resents Battler's existence, she was the first to whom Battler handed the letters and could have tried to get back at Asumu through Battler by ruining Battler's first love. Remember that Battler knew Kyrie from before his mother's death and trusted her even after Asumu died and that it was Kyrie's idea for him to write those letters.

Very likely though neither Kyrie nor George are responsible for the lack of letter.
Servants like Sayo weren't supposed to remain on Rokkenjima as long as she did. They remained 2/3 years usually. By the time the letter incident came about Sayo was on Rokkenjima by 7 years, which was already a record.

When Battler sees her again it's clear he doesn't expect her to still work on the island which might also explain why he has forgotten her.
His link with Sayo was Rokkenjima. Not only as long as he can't return on Rokkenjima he can't meet her but if she were to leave it he would have no idea how to meet her again.
So it can entirely be that Kyrie told him to write his cousins and he didn't even consider to also write to Shannon because he had no idea she was still working there.

Also I've payed extra special attention to how the scene was drawn in the manga... but apparently there was no hint that George had the chance to hide a letter without being noticed by Sayo, who was staring at him all the time.

Sadly the letter doesn't get addressed anywhere among the solutions (Battler will apologize in Ep 8 to Sayo for various things but never for not sending a letter) so we'll likely never know the official answer.

Said all this... George is not a very likable character.

George wants to become a better person... but though he improved he's far from his goal.
Even though he loves Shannon he doesn't really work on making her feel equal to him... possibly due to the social structure he lives in, he doesn't even realize it.
Even though he wants to be good to her thinks it's okay to bully her (it could be called teasing if it wasn't for the fact their positions are so different Shannon has troubles telling him 'no')... however in many shojo manga a boyfriend bullying a girlfriend is depicted as 'cute' so it can be he believes it's okay.
He wants to be good with Maria... however in truth he just humour her and the adults around her (he supports Rosa when she abuses Maria).

He admits he was unfair in his feelings toward Battler (and Jessica)... but never overcomes them nor has the guts to apologize to him.

He's not as bad as the adults... but ultimately he's no good and his backstory isn't even dramatic enough to draw him some sympathy.

The manga basically removed George's almost constant nagging at Battler and, if one looks in the late episodes of the VN there's to say that, although George in them admits he was afraid of Battler, he behaves with him a lot better so it can be that Ryukishi purposely retconned George's behaviour for the manga as he realized he had overdone it, making hard for the readers to apprecciate George's good sides.

In a way it's a good idea as George... is painful to read in the VN... even if as a result he comes out as a much better person in the manga... which doesn't quite fit his character.

On the other side I've always found funny how people complains about George's behaviour... but overlook Jessica's.

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

I know it's weird to hate George and love Rudolf, but Rudolf was always a likable sleezball, and at the very least was honest most of the time, plus he was pretty awesome in episode 3.

Rudolf and honest? Are we talking of the same person? Ep 3 should have given you hints already of how Rudolf cheated both Asumu and Kyrie... and of how his economical troubles are due to the fact he did something illegal was caught and since he had no hopes to win a trial he has to pay a giant sum of money to settle his troubles. And I won't say anymore or I might spoil you but really... Rudolf is not honest.

Contrary to George though, he's supposed to be a likable guy... the likable guy who's using this to his advantage to stab you in the back.

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

Another question, kinda random but the family all have the Golden Eagle somewhere on their bodies but mainly on parts of their clothing, did Eva and Shannon get the thing tattooed onto them? Like i said kinda random but I found it kinda funny, nobody seemed to mention it.

Well, not only I like to think they didn't tattooed Sayo as if she was a branded cattle but I think that's not the case.
I might remember wrong but at that time in Japan tattooes were connected with the Yakuza... therefore it wouldn't be a good idea for Eva or Shannon to have one.

In the manga Sayo is also drawn without it in certain occasions.

They're probably some sort of 'wearable' accessory with the eagle printed on it.
That or it's something we aren't supposed to think too hard over... like haircolour or rain that doesn't wet people.

[RandomUser]

I didn't know that Ryukishi was the one who suggested the letter hiding plot or that the song was official, it's really hard for me to belive that he liked him and the George hating club reaaaaally hates George considering they even omitted the other possibilities of the letter hiding.

By the way, as stated by user Rudolf Ushiromiya (need to put user to avoid misunderstanidings), I also thought that Kumasawa was the easiest kill, so when Maria said that George couldn't kill an adult but he can kill a kid it really stuck me that he is a pedophile in the far and dark side, specially because Ange felt that he was creepy. When a kid feels that a man who is trying a lot to be nice is creepy there is a deep meaning behind it, specially for a kid like Ange.

[Rudolf Ushiromiya]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

On the other side I've always found funny how people complains about George's behaviour... but overlook Jessica's.

Jessica? I thought she was pretty straight forward, the only real bad thing I can think of was

Spoiler for Jessica:

taking advantage of her weak bronchi and faked her asthma attacks to get out of uncomfortable situations.

other than that I don't recall anything that made her stick out too much, I mean she wasn't the brightest and pretty brash but she always came off as more of a rebellious teenager with a stressful upbringing.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Rudolf and honest? Are we talking of the same person? Ep 3 should have given you hints already of how Rudolf cheated both Asumu and Kyrie... and of how his economical troubles are due to the fact he did something illegal was caught and since he had no hopes to win a trial he has to pay a giant sum of money to settle his troubles. And I won't say anymore or I might spoil you but really... Rudolf is not honest.

Contrary to George though, he's supposed to be a likable guy... the likable guy who's using this to his advantage to stab you in the back.

Well honest as in he doesn't kid himself, he doesn't try to ever justify anything and knows he is a bad person himself, he even tells George and Battler I think, not to become a man like him. But yeah I think in terms of morality George has Rudolf beat, I do recall Ange saying something along the lines of him be detestable if I remember (Been a few years since I got to that part), however he is not completely backstabbing, for starters he does actually care about Battler and even shows concern for his education, he also doesn't make the situation with Kyrie uncomfortable by bringing up the past and even paid to have Battler taken care of when he was younger. But yeah despite Rudolf being that cool guy, his faith with women leaves much to be desired, hell, even in his fight in episode 3 he seemed to be making the moves on Lucifer stating her to be an ideal woman and could possibly make him fall for her. And remembering his horrible ordeals back when he was younger makes it hard to call him redeemable, unfortunately I would be lying if I said it was a shock that Rudolf was a pretty bad guy, they kinda through that out the window in episode 2. It was kinda easy to dislike him. I just think his character is awesome. Still pales to Kyrie's character, now her....

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Well, not only I like to think they didn't tattooed Sayo as if she was a branded cattle but I think that's not the case.
I might remember wrong but at that time in Japan tattooes were connected with the Yakuza... therefore it wouldn't be a good idea for Eva or Shannon to have one.

In the manga Sayo is also drawn without it in certain occasions.

They're probably some sort of 'wearable' accessory with the eagle printed on it.
That or it's something we aren't supposed to think too hard over... like haircolour or rain that doesn't wet people.

I was thinking the same thing, I just couldn't imagine Eva wearing something like an tattoo sleeve or something, I figured it would be too tacky for her. But yeha I guess white-haired Kyrie, red-haired Battler, blond-haired blue eyes natural Japanese Jessica, and orange-haired Eva make about as much sense

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by RandomUser

so when Maria said that George couldn't kill an adult but he can kill a kid it really stuck me that he is a pedophile in the far and dark side, specially because Ange felt that he was creepy.

It's not like you couldn't read it like that. But I think this tells more of an underlying, and worrying state of Otaku culture itself than anything in the story of Umineko. Even in big works by big name authors you might stumble upon these very limit-breaching relationships between characters, which in the medium itself is painted as cute and pure and wonderful.
I mean just look at Higurashi no naku koro ni which now probably cashes in over 50% of it's revenues over hug-pillows, half-naked dolls, semi-erotic spin-offs etc...
Many otaku apparently just find the idea of a cute little girl to protect very endearing.

Sure, you can make an argument that George as well is repeating Kinzo forcing himself on Kuwadorian Beatrice against better knowledge. But even then the pedophilia aspect always came second.

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

he also doesn't make the situation with Kyrie uncomfortable by bringing up the past and even paid to have Battler taken care of when he was younger.

Is that really something that he should be congratulated for? He had so many chances to actually put together the mother and son who belonged together from the start. No matter how much of a good mother Asumu turned out to be and what a twisted broad Kyrie might have been from the start, not owning up to that makes him that much more of a bad person.

Paying was always his solution for problems.
He didn't like a woman? He gave her money.
He didn't get good grades? He gave them money.
The wrong woman got a miscarriage? He bribed the doctors.
His company got into shady business? He bribes them to avoid a lawsuit.

I wouldn't say that Rudolph was a through and through bad guy, but he was a spoilt kid that was raised rotten.

[Psypher]

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

Jessica? I thought she was pretty straight forward, the only real bad thing I can think of was

Spoiler for Jessica:

taking advantage of her weak bronchi and faked her asthma attacks to get out of uncomfortable situations.

Interesting, does the manga confirm that she does this?

[Rudolf Ushiromiya]

Originally Posted by haguruma

Is that really something that he should be congratulated for? He had so many chances to actually put together the mother and son who belonged together from the start. No matter how much of a good mother Asumu turned out to be and what a twisted broad Kyrie might have been from the start, not owning up to that makes him that much more of a bad person.

Paying was always his solution for problems.
He didn't like a woman? He gave her money.
He didn't get good grades? He gave them money.
The wrong woman got a miscarriage? He bribed the doctors.
His company got into shady business? He bribes them to avoid a lawsuit.

I wouldn't say that Rudolph was a through and through bad guy, but he was a spoilt kid that was raised rotten.

Hmm, not congratulated, but at least taken into consideration as one needs to take into account how Rudolf is when trying to not be a shady jerk, but at least attmept to be a decent person. For example how Kyrie talked about him in the first episode using the Chessboard thinking: Rudolf is the kind of guy who wants you to chase after him, he doesn't always say what he really means and instead tries to be fickle and leave vague hints, Rudolf even in the midst of the stressful family conference still thought about wanting to be like a family just for a moment if he could . Rudolf is usually shown to not really care about anything or take much seriously aside from money, but he does still show he has some sort of sentimental attachment to his family. I saw this part in the manga and was talked about in the VN, it was small and more of a joke but we do see Rudolf spent a great deal of time with Battler when he was a kid and did the kind of stuff Maria would want to do with Rosa. On the flip side that did cause Battler's phobia so you can take it the other way as well:

Spoiler for image:

And in episode 3 it showed how much Rudolf and Kyrie really trust and depend on each other, never leaving each other out to dry:

Spoiler for image:

Judging by what Kyrie says I assume that was not the first time Kyrie has been in serious danger and Rudolf has come and helped, if Rudolf was as bad as he was painted out to be he would have left her when his life is in danger or can risk getting caught. And although they are shady men as well, at the beginning of episode 2 Rudolf is shown to have other colleges that depend on him and Rudolf doesn't hang them out to dry either despite them all being shady men. So I don't think Rudolf is a good guy and certainly doesn't have nearly as good an excuse to be the way he is as say Rosa, but he has a certain charm about him that makes him hard to hate...too much, at least not want to hate him all the time and he is still aware of it and doesn't justify it by thinking he is a good person.

[Rudolf Ushiromiya]

Originally Posted by Psypher

Interesting, does the manga confirm that she does this?

I haven't actually gotten there, I sorta dropped the manga since I was silly enough to pick it up RIGHT after I read a lot of the VN and was burnt out. But here is the scene from the VN:

Spoiler for Episode 7 spoiler:

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by RandomUser

I didn't know that Ryukishi was the one who suggested the letter hiding plot or that the song was official, it's really hard for me to belive that he liked him and the George hating club reaaaaally hates George considering they even omitted the other possibilities of the letter hiding.

Well, there are two problems.

First, George's attitude is seriously wrong in the west... while among the Ushiromiya is nothing special and it's possible that Japanese fans can understand it better. Remember how the Ushiromiya find normal male supremacy and classism. In other manga it's shown that if a rich guy (like George) were to marry someone poor or from a lower class, that person should feel blessed he was so kind to honour her with her attentions. There are even tales who explains how in the past (but not a far past as for us) the master was even allowed to rape the servants and they weren't entitled to complain.

While for us this is pretty revolting... in the manga world his behaviour is fine. I won't go into how Japanese might feel over this in real life (it might be they draw a line between what can happen in manga and what can happen in real life) but as manga depicts it as fine they probably would have not many problems with George acting like this in a story.

Another problem is that George's behaviour ends up being compared to Battler and George loses badly.

George childishly bullies Battler fueling his fear for vehicles... and Battler keeps on on singing praises about how George is mature and a role model.
George is unhappy when Battler gets along better than him with Maria... and Battler praises him at each turn for how good he's with kids.
George envies Battler and purposely steals the girl that Battler likes... and Battler is supportive of George and Shannon's interaction, worries about George's feelings when Shannon seems dead, claims he has no right to be jealous of them and praises George again.
George is ordering Shannon while Battler never does so.
George asks Shannon to do stuffs while Battler helps her to clean up.
And in the manga we see what is likely Shannon confessing to George what she had done and he shaking his head at her (one of the solutions of Ep 2 posted in Ep 7) versus Shannon confessing to Battler everything and he worrying about the pain she went though (it's a bit an unfair comparison though because in Ep 2 Shannon killed people while in Prime she never got the chance).

Still really, who's better between the two?

Originally Posted by RandomUser

By the way, as stated by user Rudolf Ushiromiya (need to put user to avoid misunderstanidings), I also thought that Kumasawa was the easiest kill, so when Maria said that George couldn't kill an adult but he can kill a kid it really stuck me that he is a pedophile in the far and dark side, specially because Ange felt that he was creepy. When a kid feels that a man who is trying a lot to be nice is creepy there is a deep meaning behind it, specially for a kid like Ange.

Ange never felt that George was creepy. She felt that the sort of behaviour guys like him had with girls was creepy. She's talking of a group of boys in regards to how they act toward girls... not little girls.

George wasn't creepy to her and in fact she said she wouldn't have mind if she had to live with George after her parents died.
Besides between child murderers and pedophiles are different types of horrible criminals. Even if we assume George is one, it doesn't necessarily mean he's also the other.

Originally Posted by Psypher

Interesting, does the manga confirm that she does this?

It was stated in the VN (Ep 7) and the manga just kept the same scene. Jessica confessed doing it to Will.

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

Jessica? I thought she was pretty straight forward, the only real bad thing I can think of was

Spoiler for Jessica:

taking advantage of her weak bronchi and faked her asthma attacks to get out of uncomfortable situations.

other than that I don't recall anything that made her stick out too much, I mean she wasn't the brightest and pretty brash but she always came off as more of a rebellious teenager with a stressful upbringing.

Jessica kept on making fun of Battler for his phobia. She felt the need to inform everyone in the house he suffered of it. Granted no one seems to realize a phobia is something pretty unpleasant to have to say the least and that you can't really help it much, but she's delighted in making fun of him, possibly way more than George.

Jessica is strongly disappointed when Battler turns out stronger than her and tries to put him down in other ways.

Despite making fun of Battler for a phobia, when Battler claims she ate the Umineko she gets upset.

When in Ep 3 Battler encourages her she ends up making fun of him again.

Although Jessica is crushing on Kanon, when Kanon causes the wheelbarrow to lose his balance and he's reproached by Gohda, despite helping him she calls him clumsy. She doesn't mean bad but since Kanon had just been scolded and has other problems this isn't the nicest thing she could do.

Instead than trying to listen to his problems or have him speak up she tells him how he should live his life which is fundamentally what George did with Shannon. She's less ordering him up but she's still pretty pushy. She makes assumptions on him (same as George did with Shannon) instead than trying to listen to him. She admits she doesn't know anything about him... but still thinks she knows what's best for him.

It's hinted at how, 6 years before, Jessica had fun physically beating Battler up. Battler didn't take it as abuse just as rough play and we could wave it away in the same way if it wasn't because Jessica gets violent with Maria as well. Sure, the situation is upsetting but Maria is still a child and in Ep 1 Jessica starts by verbally attacking her when Maria asks her 'who died?' completely uncaring Maria legittimately doesn't know and that among the dead ones there was Maria's mother.

She finds Maria creepy and starts arguing with her even if she knows this could lead Rosa to abuse Maria.
However Maria later gets over the argument without them having the chance to make up so Jessica feels unsatisfied.

She claims she and Sayo are best friends and that she loves Kanon but apparently doesn't even notice their physical resemblance. When Sayo starts dating George she's jealous of him.

Originally she wanted Sayo to get a boyfriend at the same time as her, complaining she wasn't allowed to get it prior to her. She teases her even though she knows she's shy and although she acts supportive of her story with George she's actually jealous.

She grows interested in Kanon at first because she wants a boyfriend because she's jealous of Shannon having one... which is a motivation pretty similar to the one that pushed George pursuing Shannon.

When something makes her uncomfortable she turns her head away from it (see Beatrice's prank) and this leads her to ignore Maria's abuse (same as George only George's reason was different). She humours Maria in her witch belief because it spares her for troubles but since she doesn't believe she often speaks carelessly angering Maria... however she complains when Battler, who doesn't knew about Maria's love for witches, does the same.

She teases George for his love for Shannon and tattles him and Shannon out to Battler.

She looks down to girls who deluded herself into thinking that they know what a boy feels for them.

And then there's a thing that's meaningless for me but that's often used against George. In a fantasy scene George claimed he was willing to kill his own family to be with Shannon... posted with a similar dilemma in Ep 6 Jessica has hesitations instead but ultimately decided on killing the first person she were to meet. It could be a servant, Maria, a relative or one of her parents. Mind you, as all this happen in fantasy scenes I find it pretty meaningless as in truth it never happened but as it's used against George for par condicio it should also be used against Jessica.

Last but not least ultimately in the manga she'll admit that, had she been a better friend to Shannon, Shannon could have opened up to her... recognizing she had been in life a poor friend.

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

Well honest as in he doesn't kid himself, he doesn't try to ever justify anything and knows he is a bad person himself, he even tells George and Battler I think, not to become a man like him. But yeah I think in terms of morality George has Rudolf beat, I do recall Ange saying something along the lines of him be detestable if I remember (Been a few years since I got to that part), however he is not completely backstabbing, for starters he does actually care about Battler and even shows concern for his education, he also doesn't make the situation with Kyrie uncomfortable by bringing up the past and even paid to have Battler taken care of when he was younger. But yeah despite Rudolf being that cool guy, his faith with women leaves much to be desired, hell, even in his fight in episode 3 he seemed to be making the moves on Lucifer stating her to be an ideal woman and could possibly make him fall for her. And remembering his horrible ordeals back when he was younger makes it hard to call him redeemable, unfortunately I would be lying if I said it was a shock that Rudolf was a pretty bad guy, they kinda through that out the window in episode 2. It was kinda easy to dislike him. I just think his character is awesome. Still pales to Kyrie's character, now her....

Rudolf admitted he didn't care about Battler's education because it wasn't worth the effort as, if he were to show concern, Battler wouldn't listen to him. Battler in Ep 1 tells us he has to self care for himself and his studies.

What Rudolf was willing to do was to show up at school celebrations... which could be for social appearance.

Keep in mind that what Battler did, leaving his family, was pretty mindblowing as he publically declared Rudolf was such a bad parent that he preferred to live with his commoner grandparents, leave his family and change his name than to be associated with him.

Kinzo is utterly furious for this situation and could have pressured Rudolf in trying to solve the issue.

Paying for Battler to be taken care of was his duty. Battler was his son and his grandparents were commoners while Rudolf was goddamn rich.

One of Rudolf's main sins is his lazyness. It's Kyrie the one who does the most to bring the family together, Rudolf just... play along.

I'm trying to not spoil you too much since it seems you haven't read yet Ep 7 and 8 but you still have to learn the truth about Rudolf and it's pretty ugly.

There's only one person Rudolf loves and that's himself. He'll sacrifice Battler for his personal gain without too much hesitation.

Him being aware he's a bad guy is not a proof of his honesty is a proof of the fact he knows what he's doing is wrong but doesn't care enough to do something to fix it.

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

Hmm, not congratulated, but at least taken into consideration as one needs to take into account how Rudolf is when trying to not be a shady jerk, but at least attmept to be a decent person. For example how Kyrie talked about him in the first episode using the Chessboard thinking: Rudolf is the kind of guy who wants you to chase after him, he doesn't always say what he really means and instead tries to be fickle and leave vague hints, Rudolf even in the midst of the stressful family conference still thought about wanting to be like a family just for a moment if he could.

Not really. A decent person would have not done what Rudolf did, or would have confessed it 18 years earlier. It's unclear why he wants to confess in such a moment (it's even speculated that he was bribed in order to do so) but he should have at least done it in Ep 7, when Battler's life was in danger and this could have saved it and instead avoided doing so

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

Rudolf is usually shown to not really care about anything or take much seriously aside from money, but he does still show he has some sort of sentimental attachment to his family. I saw this part in the manga and was talked about in the VN, it was small and more of a joke but we do see Rudolf spent a great deal of time with Battler when he was a kid and did the kind of stuff Maria would want to do with Rosa. On the flip side that did cause Battler's phobia so you can take it the other way as well:

Spoiler for image:

Rudolf spent time with Battler doing what he liked despite Battler not wanting to do such things because they scared him doesn't really speak in Rudolf's favour.
The other two kids you see below are Rosa and George. Rudolf simply liked to do such things. It wasn't to spend time with Battler, it wa because he liked doing it.

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

And in episode 3 it showed how much Rudolf and Kyrie really trust and depend on each other, never leaving each other out to dry:

Spoiler for image:

Judging by what Kyrie says I assume that was not the first time Kyrie has been in serious danger and Rudolf has come and helped, if Rudolf was as bad as he was painted out to be he would have left her when his life is in danger or can risk getting caught.

Sadly though Kyrie is mistaken in this. She's her only delusion.

Rudolf ultimately didn't really came to save her, he did to her something horrible unknown to her, something who'll break her. Then he regretted... but never truly bothered to fix it because it was too much effort.

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

And although they are shady men as well, at the beginning of episode 2 Rudolf is shown to have other colleges that depend on him and Rudolf doesn't hang them out to dry either despite them all being shady men. So I don't think Rudolf is a good guy and certainly doesn't have nearly as good an excuse to be the way he is as say Rosa, but he has a certain charm about him that makes him hard to hate...too much, at least not want to hate him all the time and he is still aware of it and doesn't justify it by thinking he is a good person.

Considering Rudolf lives by scamming others he should be a real hypocrite if he were to make excuses for himself.
Rudolf actually had no excuses beyond 'but for me it was more advantageous to do this'. He's a horrible human being but yes, he has a certain charm so he can be liked as a character. This doesn't make him a good person.

[RandomUser]

Well, its' a fact that everyone of the Ushiromiya family had a bad side (like any normal people would have).

Krauss: Gutless pride.
Natsuhi: Too much useless pride (still the best adults in my opinion).
Eva: Crazy manipultaive.
Hideyoshi: Too lenient (spoils Eva a lot, but my second best adult).
Rudolf: Child-Adult.
Kyrie: Yandere psycho.
Rosa: Emotional crazy.
Jessica: Self-righteous liar.
George: Just read the George hating club opinion.
Battler: Sorry, I can't be objective with him.
Maria: Delusional crazy (She is an abused child so I understand and love her while I blame her parents).

Also, even on asian countries the attitude of every Ushiromiya family is considered as trash so I belive that even the japanese hated George. Poor him, even I hate him, even though I don't hate Rosa when she is beating Maria like a sandbag.

PS: This last few pages should be moved to a George hating thread.

[Rudolf Ushiromiya]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Jessica kept on making fun of Battler for his phobia. She felt the need to inform everyone in the house he suffered of it. Granted no one seems to realize a phobia is something pretty unpleasant to have to say the least and that you can't really help it much, but she's delighted in making fun of him, possibly way more than George.

Jessica is strongly disappointed when Battler turns out stronger than her and tries to put him down in other ways.

Despite making fun of Battler for a phobia, when Battler claims she ate the Umineko she gets upset.

When in Ep 3 Battler encourages her she ends up making fun of him again.

Although Jessica is crushing on Kanon, when Kanon causes the wheelbarrow to lose his balance and he's reproached by Gohda, despite helping him she calls him clumsy. She doesn't mean bad but since Kanon had just been scolded and has other problems this isn't the nicest thing she could do.

Instead than trying to listen to his problems or have him speak up she tells him how he should live his life which is fundamentally what George did with Shannon. She's less ordering him up but she's still pretty pushy. She makes assumptions on him (same as George did with Shannon) instead than trying to listen to him. She admits she doesn't know anything about him... but still thinks she knows what's best for him.

It's hinted at how, 6 years before, Jessica had fun physically beating Battler up. Battler didn't take it as abuse just as rough play and we could wave it away in the same way if it wasn't because Jessica gets violent with Maria as well. Sure, the situation is upsetting but Maria is still a child and in Ep 1 Jessica starts by verbally attacking her when Maria asks her 'who died?' completely uncaring Maria legittimately doesn't know and that among the dead ones there was Maria's mother.

She finds Maria creepy and starts arguing with her even if she knows this could lead Rosa to abuse Maria.
However Maria later gets over the argument without them having the chance to make up so Jessica feels unsatisfied.

She claims she and Sayo are best friends and that she loves Kanon but apparently doesn't even notice their physical resemblance. When Sayo starts dating George she's jealous of him.

Originally she wanted Sayo to get a boyfriend at the same time as her, complaining she wasn't allowed to get it prior to her. She teases her even though she knows she's shy and although she acts supportive of her story with George she's actually jealous.

She grows interested in Kanon at first because she wants a boyfriend because she's jealous of Shannon having one... which is a motivation pretty similar to the one that pushed George pursuing Shannon.

When something makes her uncomfortable she turns her head away from it (see Beatrice's prank) and this leads her to ignore Maria's abuse (same as George only George's reason was different). She humours Maria in her witch belief because it spares her for troubles but since she doesn't believe she often speaks carelessly angering Maria... however she complains when Battler, who doesn't knew about Maria's love for witches, does the same.

She teases George for his love for Shannon and tattles him and Shannon out to Battler.

She looks down to girls who deluded herself into thinking that they know what a boy feels for them.

And then there's a thing that's meaningless for me but that's often used against George. In a fantasy scene George claimed he was willing to kill his own family to be with Shannon... posted with a similar dilemma in Ep 6 Jessica has hesitations instead but ultimately decided on killing the first person she were to meet. It could be a servant, Maria, a relative or one of her parents. Mind you, as all this happen in fantasy scenes I find it pretty meaningless as in truth it never happened but as it's used against George for par condicio it should also be used against Jessica.

Last but not least ultimately in the manga she'll admit that, had she been a better friend to Shannon, Shannon could have opened up to her... recognizing she had been in life a poor friend.

I never thought about that, only thing I would question is her feelings of jealousy; people, especially 16 year old girls, can't control their emotions, especially not someone who is already pretty emotional like Jessica. Despite being jealous she didn't go out of her way to try and ruin George and Shannon's relationship or gossip about then in a bad way.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Rudolf admitted he didn't care about Battler's education because it wasn't worth the effort as, if he were to show concern, Battler wouldn't listen to him. Battler in Ep 1 tells us he has to self care for himself and his studies.

Yeah but this is 18 year old Battler, when he was younger he did have concerns for his education. At least when Asumu was alive but his childhood Rudolf cared, at least enough to take note of how his studies are going. I'm pretty sure if Battler was completely slacking off Rudolf would say something and not just pass it off. Plus, in part 8 when Kyrie told Rudolf to convince Battler or else she was not gonna take any chances he seemed troubled at that, if he didn't care he would have just opted to kill Battler like the rest, though again, given the context of that scene is equally as repulsive.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

What Rudolf was willing to do was to show up at school celebrations... which could be for social appearance.

Yeah but he could have just as easily shown up once or twice and left it at that, or simply appear for a short bit and leave. He didn't have to go to every single one and even then he could have gotten a similar effect by sending Kyrie the same way Natsuhi goes to Jessica's school events instead of Krauss.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Keep in mind that what Battler did, leaving his family, was pretty mindblowing as he publically declared Rudolf was such a bad parent that he preferred to live with his commoner grandparents, leave his family and change his name than to be associated with him.

Yeah..I don't actually have a defense for this one, only a theory, Battler claims this but as we see in parts of the VN and a scene in the manga, after his mother died and Rudolf got with Kyrie it was pretty hard for Battler, so while they did get along I imagine that Battler would not bear tos tay there for long after that, considering Rudolf got with Kyrie shortly after Asumu and brought her to their home. Though that is only speculation, I don't think Battler would have left had Asumu still been there.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Kinzo is utterly furious for this situation and could have pressured Rudolf in trying to solve the issue.

I think Kinzo already thought of Rudolf and most of his children as lost causes, in episode one he exclaimed how non of his children were fit to be head of the Ushiromiya family and stated Rudolf only cared about woman or something along those lines, I don't see Kinzo wasting his time on Rudolf to pressure him like that.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Paying for Battler to be taken care of was his duty. Battler was his son and his grandparents were commoners while Rudolf was goddamn rich.

Yeah but I'm sure his grandparents would have gladly taken care of him even without money. Rudolf could have even paid a bare minimum but we see Battler has nice clothes and a good education. If he didn't care he would have simply make small monthly payments and left it at that. He at least took responsibility there.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

One of Rudolf's main sins is his lazyness. It's Kyrie the one who does the most to bring the family together, Rudolf just... play along.

And his Lust. Lol but he did suggest they all talk as a family in episode 1 and Kyrie always held Battler at arms length away due to her supposed relation to him and only seeing Asumu. Rudolf, unlike the other parents with the exception of Rosa, tried to do things as a family just for the sake of having fun. Then again his whole thing was being the one to always goof around but they did nice things like go to the beach and take nice photos together.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

I'm trying to not spoil you too much since it seems you haven't read yet Ep 7 and 8 but you still have to learn the truth about Rudolf and it's pretty ugly.

I read them, it was just a while ago so i forgot a bit of it, i'm just re-reading since I loved the story so much and picking up on small things I missed, which is also why I joined this forum to see other people's thoughts and opinions so don't worry about spoilers.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

There's only one person Rudolf loves and that's himself. He'll sacrifice Battler for his personal gain without too much hesitation.

And money. I think he does at least care about Battler and Kyrie, I mean he did confess to her everything he did in episode 8 I think, and even told her to hate him and acknowledged that he betrayed both her and Battler and took away what should have been a great relationship. I mean you could argue it was simply a selfish need to free his own guilty conscience but he could have just as easily kept it a secret and let the Cat Box close on that and to risk destroying the only ones left who really cared about him just because he couldn't bear to see them that way shows he has more on his mind than just money or woman, that's not something a man who care about nothing else would do.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Him being aware he's a bad guy is not a proof of his honesty is a proof of the fact he knows what he's doing is wrong but doesn't care enough to do something to fix it.

True since by that same logic I can't get mad at Rosa now that I think about it since one can use that same reasoning with her abusing Maria. That being said he did try to reconcile with Kyrie at least int he family department, but yeah as far as money goes..there is no changing that about him unfortunately.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Not really. A decent person would have not done what Rudolf did, or would have confessed it 18 years earlier. It's unclear why he wants to confess in such a moment (it's even speculated that he was bribed in order to do so) but he should have at least done it in Ep 7, when Battler's life was in danger and this could have saved it and instead avoided doing so

True, as a person Rudolf is easily the worst of the siblings, hell he would be perfect for a witch lol. I just think Rudolf did the small things here and there that were out of genuine care when he didn't have to. Unfortunately as you pointed out, the cons vastly outweight the pros in Rudolf's case. One could argue the reason he chose to confess was because he didn't want to leave any regrets, that and everyone was together and being happy, there would likely not be another time like this where he had the courage to do so, plus with Ange around it kinda made it hard to suppress his feelings. What scene did he not save battler in episode 7?

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Rudolf spent time with Battler doing what he liked despite Battler not wanting to do such things because they scared him doesn't really speak in Rudolf's favour.
The other two kids you see below are Rosa and George. Rudolf simply liked to do such things. It wasn't to spend time with Battler, it wa because he liked doing it.

True but it does show they at least hung out a lot when he was growing up and he was in his life, yeah he teased him and but looking at the context he did take him to parks and other places, i'm sure they went on other rides and did things Battler wanted to as well. If he didn't care he just wouldn't have spent time with him at all.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Sadly though Kyrie is mistaken in this. She's her only delusion.

Not in that instance but Rudolf trusted Kyrie intuition above anything else and going by her context she has been in trouble before and Rudolf in some way helped her out of it. Though we don't know the details so I may be a moot point.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Rudolf ultimately didn't really came to save her, he did to her something horrible unknown to her, something who'll break her. Then he regretted... but never truly bothered to fix it because it was too much effort.

Well, he could have just ran away and not even bother fighting with her, he did go out of his way to help Eva and died in the process, I don't think it was due to lack of effort, it was just he didn't really know how to. Every other girl he either forgot about or paid off, so with Kyrie this was the first time he at least attempted to settle things without his wallet or a note.

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Considering Rudolf lives by scamming others he should be a real hypocrite if he were to make excuses for himself.
Rudolf actually had no excuses beyond 'but for me it was more advantageous to do this'. He's a horrible human being but yes, he has a certain charm so he can be liked as a character. This doesn't make him a good person.

True, as much as I like Rudolf it's only as a character and not as a person, kinda the same way one would like Bernkastel. U just think he is well written with a few sparkles of light in him here and there.

[Rudolf Ushiromiya]

Originally Posted by RandomUser

Well, its' a fact that everyone of the Ushiromiya family had a bad side (like any normal people would have).

Krauss: Gutless pride.
Natsuhi: Too much useless pride (still the best adults in my opinion).
Eva: Crazy manipultaive.
Hideyoshi: Too lenient (spoils Eva a lot, but my second best adult).
Rudolf: Child-Adult.
Kyrie: Yandere psycho.
Rosa: Emotional crazy.
Jessica: Self-righteous liar.
George: Just read the George hating club opinion.
Battler: Sorry, I can't be objective with him.
Maria: Delusional crazy (She is an abused child so I understand and love her while I blame her parents).

Also, even on asian countries the attitude of every Ushiromiya family is considered as trash so I belive that even the japanese hated George. Poor him, even I hate him, even though I don't hate Rosa when she is beating Maria like a sandbag.

PS: This last few pages should be moved to a George hating thread.

I always find it hard t critique Hideyoshi, he was like a more mature George with no dark undertones, but he really should have tried to talk to Eva when they were alone about her little episodes.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

I never thought about that, only thing I would question is her feelings of jealousy; people, especially 16 year old girls, can't control their emotions, especially not someone who is already pretty emotional like Jessica. Despite being jealous she didn't go out of her way to try and ruin George and Shannon's relationship or gossip about then in a bad way.

Jessica is 18 and girls can control their emotions without getting violent or abusive or rude.
George is only 5 years older and immature, partly also because the maturing process in boy is slower. And he started being jealous of Battler when he was 17.

The only vague excuse a girl can have is that in Japan there's a lot more pressure on females so that Umineko presents the entire female cast as victim of this and therefore prone to either have emotional crisis or attack of violence.

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

Yeah but this is 18 year old Battler, when he was younger he did have concerns for his education. At least when Asumu was alive but his childhood Rudolf cared, at least enough to take note of how his studies are going. I'm pretty sure if Battler was completely slacking off Rudolf would say something and not just pass it off. Plus, in part 8 when Kyrie told Rudolf to convince Battler or else she was not gonna take any chances he seemed troubled at that, if he didn't care he would have just opted to kill Battler like the rest, though again, given the context of that scene is equally as repulsive.

Where do you get the idea Rudolf cared? Battler stated righ in Ep 1 that it was Asumu the one who cared for her family, not Rudolf. Rudolf never did so that Battler is impressed when he claims he wants to have a talk with them as a family.

Rudolf has slightly more moral sense than Kyrie. He's not happy to kill George either, not just Battler. Probably if he could have he would have spared everyone. However as they become troublesome he simply gets rid of them. George had to be killed because George would have a right to the inheritance, same for Jessica and they wanted it all for them. Battler is from Rudolf's family. He won't be able to take money away from them.

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

Yeah but he could have just as easily shown up once or twice and left it at that, or simply appear for a short bit and leave. He didn't have to go to every single one and even then he could have gotten a similar effect by sending Kyrie the same way Natsuhi goes to Jessica's school events instead of Krauss.

Where did you get this idea he went to them? He volunteered to go to them, Battler turned his offering down and Rudolf never went.
I don't know how much this stick to Japanese reality but actually in manga is depicted as very important to have your parents showing up at school, and if they don't do so this makes the family look bad.

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

Yeah..I don't actually have a defense for this one, only a theory, Battler claims this but as we see in parts of the VN and a scene in the manga, after his mother died and Rudolf got with Kyrie it was pretty hard for Battler, so while they did get along I imagine that Battler would not bear tos tay there for long after that, considering Rudolf got with Kyrie shortly after Asumu and brought her to their home. Though that is only speculation, I don't think Battler would have left had Asumu still been there.

If Rudolf had divorced from Asumu, Battler would have followed his mother or wanted to. Asumu might have mediated so that Battler could have handled it better.

If Asumu had remained there Rudolf wouldn't have been able to marry Kyrie and therefore he would have likely not revealed he had cheated on her. Ence Battler wouldn't have been so disgusted by his behaviour and wouldn't have left.

But then Kyrie would have killed Asumu, likely without getting caught and things would have ended up exactly the same.

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

I think Kinzo already thought of Rudolf and most of his children as lost causes, in episode one he exclaimed how non of his children were fit to be head of the Ushiromiya family and stated Rudolf only cared about woman or something along those lines, I don't see Kinzo wasting his time on Rudolf to pressure him like that.

Kinzo cared of public appearance. It wouldn't be for Rudolf's or Battler's benefit but for the Ushiromiya family benefit.

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

Yeah but I'm sure his grandparents would have gladly taken care of him even without money. Rudolf could have even paid a bare minimum but we see Battler has nice clothes and a good education. If he didn't care he would have simply make small monthly payments and left it at that. He at least took responsibility there.

The fact that his grandparents would have gladly taken care of him without money doesn't wash away Rudolf's obligation to provide for him. His grandparents aren't miserable but it's stated that they're normal people, and we're told Battler lived a commoner life. Ence normal clothes, normal school, normal allowance. Ence small monthy payments that would cover normal expenses... surely he didn't hand him money enough to go on a prestigious high school, or to have expensive clothes.
This despite being stated how, before tricking the wrong person and getting involved into a trial, Rudolf was filthy rich.
It's no big effort for Rudolf to pay for Battler and it's his duty.

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

And his Lust. Lol but he did suggest they all talk as a family in episode 1 and Kyrie always held Battler at arms length away due to her supposed relation to him and only seeing Asumu. Rudolf, unlike the other parents with the exception of Rosa, tried to do things as a family just for the sake of having fun. Then again his whole thing was being the one to always goof around but they did nice things like go to the beach and take nice photos together.

Kyrie being cold to Battler was something one wouldn't notice if he weren't to know where to look. It's Kyrie who brings Ange to meet Battler, it's Kyrie who suggests him to write to his cousins and it's Kyrie who tries to think at making things work.
I can't find where it was ever said that they went to the beach but Rudolf had fun because he liked to have fun.
Rudolf is selfish, this doesn't mean he doesn't care at all, just that he prioritize himself. A selfish person can make nice things if they please him... but this doesn't make him less selfish.

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

I read them, it was just a while ago so i forgot a bit of it, i'm just re-reading since I loved the story so much and picking up on small things I missed, which is also why I joined this forum to see other people's thoughts and opinions so don't worry about spoilers.

So I guess you should know about how Rudolf stole Kyrie's son and handed him to Asumu, claiming it was hers. He never told the truth to any of them.
He didn't do it out of niceness, it was so as to keep the both of them tied to him as Asumu soothed him while Kyrie was good as a business partner.
If Asumu had been a different person, as she realized Battler might not be her child, she might have mistreated him or raised him to hate his biological mother. As for Kyrie, if Rudolf had never stolen her son from her, she wouldn't have been so cornered to the point she was litterally willing to kill for Rudolf's sake if this would help her to keep him.
Rudolf kept on lying to her, claiming he would 'go save her' and she believed he was in the hospital to support her and not Asumu when he was in the hospital because he has organized them both to be in the same hospital and even stole her baby from her.
Such a good saving.

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

And money. I think he does at least care about Battler and Kyrie, I mean he did confess to her everything he did in episode 8 I think, and even told her to hate him and acknowledged that he betrayed both her and Battler and took away what should have been a great relationship. I mean you could argue it was simply a selfish need to free his own guilty conscience but he could have just as easily kept it a secret and let the Cat Box close on that and to risk destroying the only ones left who really cared about him just because he couldn't bear to see them that way shows he has more on his mind than just money or woman, that's not something a man who care about nothing else would do.

That 'confession' never took place in real life. Ep 8 is a story, a game. Even if we assume the characters are something more, at best they're the souls of dead people. He waited to be DEAD before finally finding the guts to tell the truth to Kyrie. That scene is placed in that game to show what Rudolf should have done in real life so that the situation wouldn't end like it did.
All the happy scenes in Ep 8 are there for that purpose. If the characters had acted differently we wouldn't have had a Rokkenjima tragedy. If Kinzo had shared the inheritance everything would have gone well. If Sayo really was three different people everything would have gone well. If Rosa had understood Maria instead of abusing of her Maria wouldn't have ended up helping Sayo. If Natsuhi has accepted to be Sayo's mom her life would have been better. And so on.

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

What scene did he not save battler in episode 7?

Rudolf agrees to kill Battler if he doesn't play along. He also agrees to Kyrie killing Battler if she thinks he's not playing along. Note that Kyrie resents Battler and the decision of what to do is ultimately left up to her. Even if Battler were to be tricked she could claim he was not and kill him.
If he had told the truth Kyrie might have felt more prone to protect Battler, to do something to convince him. Battler trusts her much more than Rudolf and she's much more cunning than Rudolf so for her it would be much more easier than for Rudolf to persuade him.
Instead Rudolf prefers to keep silent as he agrees to kill his son or to let him be killed if he can't trick him.
If circumstances hadn't worked to Battler's favour, very likely Battler would have ended up killed by one of them.

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

True but it does show they at least hung out a lot when he was growing up and he was in his life, yeah he teased him and but looking at the context he did take him to parks and other places, i'm sure they went on other rides and did things Battler wanted to as well. If he didn't care he just wouldn't have spent time with him at all.

Looking at the contest we know that Rudolf carried Battler in places he and not Battler wanted to go and this despite Battler being scared of them.

I like to go to anime conventions. If I were to have a kid I would go to anime convention with him/her. This doesn't mean I go to anime conventions FOR him/her. If he/she hates them and I drag him/her there regardless I'm being selfish and not caring for him at all.

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

Not in that instance but Rudolf trusted Kyrie intuition above anything else and going by her context she has been in trouble before and Rudolf in some way helped her out of it. Though we don't know the details so I may be a moot point.

It's explained that Kyrie was impressed by how Rudolf was in hospital with her while she was delivering and not with Asumu. This is actually a delusion on Kyrie's part. Rudolf was in hospital with both, as he arranged for both to end up in the same hospital and there he stole her child. Kyrie is also impressed because she believes he continued to support her despite her being unable to give him a living child (in Umineko it's explained this is viewed as something for which a woman is seriously to blame), when he actually did so out of guilt for having stolen her child and because he wanted to keep both her and Asumu at his side... not for Kyrie's benefit but because Kyrie was useful.

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

Well, he could have just ran away and not even bother fighting with her, he did go out of his way to help Eva and died in the process, I don't think it was due to lack of effort, it was just he didn't really know how to. Every other girl he either forgot about or paid off, so with Kyrie this was the first time he at least attempted to settle things without his wallet or a note.

Uh? When did Rudolf went out of his way to help Eva? In Prime he didn't stop Kyrie from killing her husband and attempting to kill her, killed her son and attempted to do the same with Eva.
It's also made very clear that he found Kyrie a fitting partner because she was useful to him. They're business partners which makes her more than one night stand... but doesn't necessarily makes her a person he loves.

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

True, as much as I like Rudolf it's only as a character and not as a person, kinda the same way one would like Bernkastel. U just think he is well written with a few sparkles of light in him here and there.

Rudolf is very well written and a character he's really interesting. Sadly though, as a character he's not a good person. Not even remotely.

[Rudolf Ushiromiya]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Jessica is 18 and girls can control their emotions without getting violent or abusive or rude.
George is only 5 years older and immature, partly also because the maturing process in boy is slower. And he started being jealous of Battler when he was 17.

The only vague excuse a girl can have is that in Japan there's a lot more pressure on females so that Umineko presents the entire female cast as victim of this and therefore prone to either have emotional crisis or attack of violence.



Where do you get the idea Rudolf cared? Battler stated righ in Ep 1 that it was Asumu the one who cared for her family, not Rudolf. Rudolf never did so that Battler is impressed when he claims he wants to have a talk with them as a family.

Rudolf has slightly more moral sense than Kyrie. He's not happy to kill George either, not just Battler. Probably if he could have he would have spared everyone. However as they become troublesome he simply gets rid of them. George had to be killed because George would have a right to the inheritance, same for Jessica and they wanted it all for them. Battler is from Rudolf's family. He won't be able to take money away from them.



Where did you get this idea he went to them? He volunteered to go to them, Battler turned his offering down and Rudolf never went.
I don't know how much this stick to Japanese reality but actually in manga is depicted as very important to have your parents showing up at school, and if they don't do so this makes the family look bad.



If Rudolf had divorced from Asumu, Battler would have followed his mother or wanted to. Asumu might have mediated so that Battler could have handled it better.

If Asumu had remained there Rudolf wouldn't have been able to marry Kyrie and therefore he would have likely not revealed he had cheated on her. Ence Battler wouldn't have been so disgusted by his behaviour and wouldn't have left.

But then Kyrie would have killed Asumu, likely without getting caught and things would have ended up exactly the same.



Kinzo cared of public appearance. It wouldn't be for Rudolf's or Battler's benefit but for the Ushiromiya family benefit.



The fact that his grandparents would have gladly taken care of him without money doesn't wash away Rudolf's obligation to provide for him. His grandparents aren't miserable but it's stated that they're normal people, and we're told Battler lived a commoner life. Ence normal clothes, normal school, normal allowance. Ence small monthy payments that would cover normal expenses... surely he didn't hand him money enough to go on a prestigious high school, or to have expensive clothes.
This despite being stated how, before tricking the wrong person and getting involved into a trial, Rudolf was filthy rich.
It's no big effort for Rudolf to pay for Battler and it's his duty.



Kyrie being cold to Battler was something one wouldn't notice if he weren't to know where to look. It's Kyrie who brings Ange to meet Battler, it's Kyrie who suggests him to write to his cousins and it's Kyrie who tries to think at making things work.
I can't find where it was ever said that they went to the beach but Rudolf had fun because he liked to have fun.
Rudolf is selfish, this doesn't mean he doesn't care at all, just that he prioritize himself. A selfish person can make nice things if they please him... but this doesn't make him less selfish.



So I guess you should know about how Rudolf stole Kyrie's son and handed him to Asumu, claiming it was hers. He never told the truth to any of them.
He didn't do it out of niceness, it was so as to keep the both of them tied to him as Asumu soothed him while Kyrie was good as a business partner.
If Asumu had been a different person, as she realized Battler might not be her child, she might have mistreated him or raised him to hate his biological mother. As for Kyrie, if Rudolf had never stolen her son from her, she wouldn't have been so cornered to the point she was litterally willing to kill for Rudolf's sake if this would help her to keep him.
Rudolf kept on lying to her, claiming he would 'go save her' and she believed he was in the hospital to support her and not Asumu when he was in the hospital because he has organized them both to be in the same hospital and even stole her baby from her.
Such a good saving.



That 'confession' never took place in real life. Ep 8 is a story, a game. Even if we assume the characters are something more, at best they're the souls of dead people. He waited to be DEAD before finally finding the guts to tell the truth to Kyrie. That scene is placed in that game to show what Rudolf should have done in real life so that the situation wouldn't end like it did.
All the happy scenes in Ep 8 are there for that purpose. If the characters had acted differently we wouldn't have had a Rokkenjima tragedy. If Kinzo had shared the inheritance everything would have gone well. If Sayo really was three different people everything would have gone well. If Rosa had understood Maria instead of abusing of her Maria wouldn't have ended up helping Sayo. If Natsuhi has accepted to be Sayo's mom her life would have been better. And so on.



Rudolf agrees to kill Battler if he doesn't play along. He also agrees to Kyrie killing Battler if she thinks he's not playing along. Note that Kyrie resents Battler and the decision of what to do is ultimately left up to her. Even if Battler were to be tricked she could claim he was not and kill him.
If he had told the truth Kyrie might have felt more prone to protect Battler, to do something to convince him. Battler trusts her much more than Rudolf and she's much more cunning than Rudolf so for her it would be much more easier than for Rudolf to persuade him.
Instead Rudolf prefers to keep silent as he agrees to kill his son or to let him be killed if he can't trick him.
If circumstances hadn't worked to Battler's favour, very likely Battler would have ended up killed by one of them.



Looking at the contest we know that Rudolf carried Battler in places he and not Battler wanted to go and this despite Battler being scared of them.

I like to go to anime conventions. If I were to have a kid I would go to anime convention with him/her. This doesn't mean I go to anime conventions FOR him/her. If he/she hates them and I drag him/her there regardless I'm being selfish and not caring for him at all.



It's explained that Kyrie was impressed by how Rudolf was in hospital with her while she was delivering and not with Asumu. This is actually a delusion on Kyrie's part. Rudolf was in hospital with both, as he arranged for both to end up in the same hospital and there he stole her child. Kyrie is also impressed because she believes he continued to support her despite her being unable to give him a living child (in Umineko it's explained this is viewed as something for which a woman is seriously to blame), when he actually did so out of guilt for having stolen her child and because he wanted to keep both her and Asumu at his side... not for Kyrie's benefit but because Kyrie was useful.




Uh? When did Rudolf went out of his way to help Eva? In Prime he didn't stop Kyrie from killing her husband and attempting to kill her, killed her son and attempted to do the same with Eva.
It's also made very clear that he found Kyrie a fitting partner because she was useful to him. They're business partners which makes her more than one night stand... but doesn't necessarily makes her a person he loves.



Rudolf is very well written and a character he's really interesting. Sadly though, as a character he's not a good person. Not even remotely.

Yeah, after reading your post a few times and thinking about it I will admit I was biased towards Rudolf because I wanted him to have something good about him, looking for a miracle I guess, that and I loved his character. But morally speaking yeah he was as bad as some of the witches. arguably worse. I could of sworn Jessica and Shannon were the same age though but I may have missed that. That's why I love forums like this one where I can talk to people that have dug deep into the series and picke dup on things I never would have otherwise thought about. Also, I meant Rudolf going with Hideyoshi and Kyrie in episode 3 to help Eva when she was sick.
I do have a few questions now that your brought up Prime worlds and such: What episodes would be considered "canon", to my knowledge episodes 1,2,6, and 7 were "real, while 3,4,5, and 8 were not. Or am I mistaken? I always assumed episode 8 was somewhat canon as it was closing Ange's story. Also would those fantasy world versions of the characters only apply to humans like George? Or can we conclude that the actions taken by witches and furniture were fake as well? Sorry Umineko was pretty confusing without going through it a second time. I still don't know what the hell the Meta World actually is and who can and cannot experience it.

[Rudolf Ushiromiya]

Also, it may be just me but was anyone (At least coming from Higurashi) taken back by the tone change of Umineko? I mean those witches were borderline gods, at first I thought they were just kind supernatural with some magic that made them nearly invincible to normal humans but then they start creating supernovas, summoning gods as attacks, using crazy weapons like Red and Blue keys, and truths, Bernkastel had a universe explode in her stomach and was fine, then a single cat in strong enough to take out Beatrice who wield infinite power/magic? It started to get on the levels of DBZ mixed with Marvel comics kinda crazy. Anyone else taken back or did you enjoy it?

[Mali]

I welcomed the change in the writing style. Umineko has many clashes between oppsites, full of action, and the repeatation were toned down. But I think I missed the times of Higurashi when the characters were just casual and normal.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

Also, I meant Rudolf going with Hideyoshi and Kyrie in episode 3 to help Eva when she was sick.

They didn't go out to help Eva, Rudolph and Kyrie proposed to "get food from the mansion". The fact that they only asked Hideyoshi to come along is of course another hint that this was a ruse, because they suspect Eva to be hiding something and want to threaten him into revealing that. Their act was for one goal again, their own gain.

I do have a few questions now that your brought up Prime worlds and such: What episodes would be considered "canon", to my knowledge episodes 1,2,6, and 7 were "real, while 3,4,5, and 8 were not. Or am I mistaken?

There is nothing like a "canon" and "non-canon" Episode. All Episodes have to have the pieces act within the boundaries of their established character, which means traits that are somehow fixed are true within every Episode.

Also, I assume you haven't read the manga-version of EP8 yet? It gives a slightly better idea of what story had what origin and why it was created.
EP1 and 2 are from the message bottles, so they were written pre-incident.
EP3 was written with conviction that Eva is the culprit.
EP4 was written with the outmost of doubt.
EP5 was written by somebody lacking love and thus abandoned.
EP6 was written with the most of love.
EP7 is more of a writing excercise to understand the principles of the gameboard.
And EP8 is an apology and a message to Ange.

All of the stories are equally real and equally false, depending on how you look at them. They are all events happening within a theoretical space called "Beatrice's catbox". Unless that catbox is opened, all stories have a more or less equal chance to exist, unless the truth of the future cancels them out. The biggest question always has to be, whether they can be true in connection to the 1998 that we are confronted with in EP3, 4, 6, and 8.

[RandomUser]

I thought that in EP3 the culprit was Sayo and not Eva, maybe I'm mistaken, but I managed to solve every chapter using Sayo as the culprit, so I don't think that EP3 was written by someone who belived Eva to be the culprit.

By the way, I'm also trying to solve every chapter using Kyrie and Rudolf as culprits, I managed to do that with EP1, but that means that I'm reading the mysteries without love?

[Mr. Dent]

Originally Posted by Rudolf Ushiromiya

Also, it may be just me but was anyone (At least coming from Higurashi) taken back by the tone change of Umineko? I mean those witches were borderline gods, at first I thought they were just kind supernatural with some magic that made them nearly invincible to normal humans but then they start creating supernovas, summoning gods as attacks, using crazy weapons like Red and Blue keys, and truths, Bernkastel had a universe explode in her stomach and was fine, then a single cat in strong enough to take out Beatrice who wield infinite power/magic? It started to get on the levels of DBZ mixed with Marvel comics kinda crazy. Anyone else taken back or did you enjoy it?

I actually really enjoyed it! Ryukishi's action scenes are really all about the spectacle, but he didn't really get a chance to show that off in Higurashi. The action scenes in Matsuribayashi, for example, actually are jarring, but in a world full of witches and magic, why not go all out? While I did feel a lot of the battles were written solely for how cool they would be, they were always entertaining, and I never felt like they were detrimental to the overall story.

[Rudolf Ushiromiya]

Originally Posted by haguruma

They didn't go out to help Eva, Rudolph and Kyrie proposed to "get food from the mansion". The fact that they only asked Hideyoshi to come along is of course another hint that this was a ruse, because they suspect Eva to be hiding something and want to threaten him into revealing that. Their act was for one goal again, their own gain.


There is nothing like a "canon" and "non-canon" Episode. All Episodes have to have the pieces act within the boundaries of their established character, which means traits that are somehow fixed are true within every Episode.

Also, I assume you haven't read the manga-version of EP8 yet? It gives a slightly better idea of what story had what origin and why it was created.
EP1 and 2 are from the message bottles, so they were written pre-incident.
EP3 was written with conviction that Eva is the culprit.
EP4 was written with the outmost of doubt.
EP5 was written by somebody lacking love and thus abandoned.
EP6 was written with the most of love.
EP7 is more of a writing excercise to understand the principles of the gameboard.
And EP8 is an apology and a message to Ange.

All of the stories are equally real and equally false, depending on how you look at them. They are all events happening within a theoretical space called "Beatrice's catbox". Unless that catbox is opened, all stories have a more or less equal chance to exist, unless the truth of the future cancels them out. The biggest question always has to be, whether they can be true in connection to the 1998 that we are confronted with in EP3, 4, 6, and 8.

Fair enough, and thanks for the explanation. Would you say that it's neccicary to read the manga, or would recommend it even after reading the VN? I assumed the Manga only added in very few new things from the VN I didn't know they had grand explanations for things. And about Rudolf and Kyrie, I did notice that they were never the sacrifices for the second twilight, further proving your point

And a bit off my original topic but what is your opinion on Rosa, she was an awesomely complicated character who can be argued as good or bad. People argue that she doesn't love Maria but after episode 2 I'm very sure that that isn't the case.

[Rudolf Ushiromiya]

Originally Posted by Mr. Dent

I actually really enjoyed it! Ryukishi's action scenes are really all about the spectacle, but he didn't really get a chance to show that off in Higurashi. The action scenes in Matsuribayashi, for example, actually are jarring, but in a world full of witches and magic, why not go all out? While I did feel a lot of the battles were written solely for how cool they would be, they were always entertaining, and I never felt like they were detrimental to the overall story.

Yeah, that makes sense, I guess I was a bit surprised it all, but yeah Lambdadelta vs Bernkastel was pretty epic re-reading it.