Madoka Magica - Movie 3 Spoilers and Speculations

[Hagoshod]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

lol We don't even know what are Homura's true desires.

You serious?

She wants to be with the Madoka. That's it. She's one of the simplest characters in the story.

And hell, I'm perfectly fine when a character is written that way. It's just weird when someone takes that archetype and makes it out to be some completely mysterious character with deeply complex motives.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Hagoshod

She wants to be with the Madoka.

If that's her true desire she definitely isn't selfish. After all, she was willing to part with her forever when she was about to become a witch. And at the end, when she becomes the devil, she's aware that Madoka will eventually become her enemy, which most likely also means permanent separation.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Hagoshod

You serious?

She wants to be with the Madoka. That's it.

I think it's a bit more complex than that. If she just wants to be with Madoka, why not rewrite history to make their bond tighter? Why not take Sayaka's place (i.e. make herself Madoka's closest childhood friend of several years)? And if she just wants to be with Madoka, then why the hell would Homura make Madoka a transfer student from America? (Mind you, this bit is hard to make sense of in-canon anyway, but still, it's there, lol)

[Hagoshod]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

If that's her true desire she definitely isn't selfish.

uhh

But she breaks the universe and screws everyone else over to accomplish that.

[AuraTwilight]

If that's her true desire she definitely isn't selfish. After all, she was willing to part with her forever when she was about to become a witch. And at the end, when she becomes the devil, she's aware that Madoka will eventually become her enemy, which most likely also means permanent separation.

That's like saying that no one who's ever done something knowing it wasn't sustainable in the long term can't be selfish.

If we define her true desire as "Wants to be with Madoka", it is an inherently selfish desire because that desire is about herself gaining something (Madoka's company) at the expense of someone else (Madoka's freedom of choice). The fact that her emotional investment is in another person outside of herself doesn't make it un-selfish and/or selfless, it just explains where Homura's self-interest lies.

You seem to be intent on defining self-interest as necessarily being about the person themselves, only. Many scholars and experts of real-world psychology and contemporary ethics would disagree, enough that arguing this point is entirely outside the scope of a fucking anime series.

If Homura were COMPLETELY selfless, she wouldn't be getting anything out of this; not even a transient thing like spending a few days with Madoka before they turn into enemies. If Homura were completely selfless, she wouldn't be trying to have her cake and eat it too, which she IS. That Homura brings up the possibility that she'll lose Madoka forever doesn't mean she's not going to try to have her way anyway.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Hagoshod

But she breaks the universe and screws everyone else over to accomplish that.

That would mean she's doing something wrong. I'm not denying that.

If we define her true desire as "Wants to be with Madoka", it is an inherently selfish desire because that desire is about herself gaining something (Madoka's company) at the expense of someone else (Madoka's freedom of choice).

I agree. But if being with Madoka was her motivation, she would have made it so that they could be together in a more favorable way. As Triple_R said, Homura could have made Madoka her childhood friend or something like that. But it seems to me the only reason Homura's posing as student at Madoka's school is to keep her in check, since it's established that Madoka could overwrite Homura's suppression at the any moment. Otherwise she probably would keep her distance. That's the impression I get at the very least.

If Homura were COMPLETELY selfless, she wouldn't be getting anything out of this; not even a transient thing like spending a few days with Madoka before they turn into enemies.

I disagree. I think she would be selfish if getting those few days was at least part of her motivation. If she got those days as a consequence of her actions but wasn't actively trying to get them, I don't think that makes her selfish.

If Homura were completely selfless, she wouldn't be trying to have her cake and eat it too, which she IS.

I don't think so.

[AuraTwilight]

I agree. But if being with Madoka was her motivation, she would have made it so that they could be together in a more favorable way. As Triple_R said, Homura could have made Madoka her childhood friend or something like that. But it seems to me the only reason Homura's posing as student at Madoka's school is to keep her in check, since it's established that Madoka could overwrite Homura's suppression at the any moment. Otherwise she probably would keep her distance. That's the impression I get at the very least.

Maybe? Rewriting Madoka's life story and altering her relationships with her childhood friends is still unforgiveably nasty to me, though. And since there's an earlier scene of Homura drinking tea on the road and messing with Sayaka and whatnot I don't feel like Homura's really getting such a bad deal, here. She seems virtually omnipotent.

And let's be honest, even if Homura could suppress Madoka from a distance, do you think she's turn down teh hugz oppurtunity? :P

I disagree. I think she would be selfish if getting those few days was at least part of her motivation. If she got those days as a consequence of her actions but wasn't actively trying to get them, I don't think that makes her selfish.

She's certainly letting herself have more than is absolutely necessary, in contrast to Madokami, is my point. Whatever the truth may be, it doesn't cast Homura in a favorable light.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Rewriting Madoka's life story and altering her relationships with her childhood friends is still unforgiveably nasty to me.

It's pretty nasty, yes.

And since there's an earlier scene of Homura drinking tea on the road and messing with Sayaka and whatnot I don't feel like Homura's really getting such a bad deal, here.

Her villain act is certainly pretty creepy. I'm not sure if I buy it though.

She seems virtually omnipotent.

Hardly. She couldn't even make Sayaka forget everything about her.

And let's be honest, even if Homura could suppress Madoka from a distance, do you think she's turn down teh hugz oppurtunity?

It would be hard, but it'd consistent with her character imo.

She's certainly letting herself have more than is absolutely necessary, in contrast to Madokami, is my point. Whatever the truth may be, it doesn't cast Homura in a favorable light.

What does she have? Madoka's friendship? Nah, they just met and Madoka's first impression of Homura is that she's some sort of nut case (and it wouldn't surprise me if that was Homura's intention). Other than that, I can't really think of anything.

[Triple_R]

Honestly, to a certain extent, I think Homura has lost it. I think she's snapped. Some of her reality re-writing is just so random and pointless, in-canon at least.

Now, I do think that some of her sincere sober feelings are still coming out in some of her actions. But the girl has cracked, like a Batman villain. I hope that a future installment of Madoka Magica is about Madoka reaching out to Homura to try to restore the poor girl's sanity.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I hope that a future installment of Madoka Magica is about Madoka reaching out to Homura to try to restore the poor girl's sanity.

I hope not. That would be so cliche. I wouldn't watch a second season based on that premise.

[AuraTwilight]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

I hope not. That would be so cliche. I wouldn't watch a second season based on that premise.

What if it was done realistically? Ala Homura needs like actual therapeutic counseling instead of just love miracle bull?

[Vegard Aune]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Honestly, to a certain extent, I think Homura has lost it. I think she's snapped. Some of her reality re-writing is just so random and pointless, in-canon at least.

...Yeah, I think that is pretty undisputable at this point. Her Soul Gem had been corrupted to the point-of-no-return, and she kinda prevented Madoka from doing her thing to fix that... Yeah, if she was still perfectly sane that would just plain and simply not make any sense considering what happened.

Not that I think what happened made any sense in the first place.

[Sayaka's sandbag]

Homu's going off the rails on a crazy train!

Kind of sad in a few ways but also somewhat expected, seeing as you know, she had seen her bestest pink die over and over, then having seen her become the Concept of Hope ect, then being separated from her... Yeeeeaaaah, if I were in Homu's position I'd have to say that I would have cracked. I still want to see the face Homu pulls on Madoka when she (Madoka) comes to clean and collect Homu.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MLp7YNTznE

Listening to Crazy Train now reminds me of Homu. XD

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

I hope not. That would be so cliche. I wouldn't watch a second season based on that premise.

Well, I don't think it would be cool if Madoka just struck back full force against Homura without even trying to help/understand Homura.

I can imagine an epic fight between Madoka and Homura that's as much a battle of words as it is a battle of energy blasts (or what-have-you). A tearful Madoka tries her best to emotionally reach out to Homura while Homura shouts back with a powerful mixture of passionate love and deep-seated resentment.

It could be an awesome, emotionally riveting scene if executed well.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Sayaka's sandbag

I still want to see the face Homu pulls on Madoka when she (Madoka) comes to clean and collect Homu.

Homura's neither magical girl nor witch, so that shouldn't be possible. Or are you talking about the scene in the movie?

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Well, I don't think it would be cool if Madoka just struck back full force against Homura without even trying to help/understand Homura.

No that's not what I mean. I think a face to face confrontation will seem trite to me no matter how they do it. I just don't buy that Madoka can convince Homura to change her mind, and a fight between them would be rather idiotic considering they're both god-like and probably can't really defeat each other unless whoever writes the series asspulls the whole thing. I think this is a case where I'd like the conflict to be resolved in a lateral way (lateral, not literal lol). I don't know exactly how though.

[Sayaka's sandbag]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Homura's neither magical girl nor witch, so that shouldn't be possible. Or are you talking about the scene in the movie?

Just before Homu takes Mado's power to become Homucifer. :3

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

No that's not what I mean. I think a face to face confrontation will seem trite to me no matter how they do it. I just don't buy that Madoka can convince Homura to change her mind, and a fight between them would be rather idiotic considering they're both god-like and probably can't really defeat each other unless whoever writes the series asspulls the whole thing. I think this is a case where I'd like the conflict to be resolved in a lateral way. I don't know exactly how though.

I agree. Madoka's true narrative strength is all in its intricate mysteries and how they are revealed in the most emotional ways possible.

From there, battles will come as they do. That's the easy part.

The difficulty is in creating new mysteries now that the story has gone to god-mode, so to speak. Rebellion created some mystery by the somewhat cheap method of putting the protagonist in a fake reality without understanding it. That's OK and all, but it's not really a card that should be played again.

Things are very open-ended now, but are there really any good options for a continuing plot line? Character deaths don't really have much impact any more (as resurrection and restoration has become commonplace), and more god-flipping would get old fast. I really feel like the franchise has cornered itself by making this bold move with no follow-up game plan.

On the other hand, I didn't think they'd be able to follow the series with anything of meaningful impact, and man did they prove me wrong. So here's hoping they can do it again. And hopefully with a good message, like how the original ending went. I've started to accept that Rebellion makes good narrative sense regarding Homura's motivation, but it still completely undermines the message of the original series, replacing it with a far inferior one, if any at all.

------------

By the way, regarding how things actually happened, I've come to more or less accept that it was the power of Homura's curse that she used to "ascend". Curses that make witches are said to be as powerful manifestations of despair as the wishes that make magical girls are of hope. And, curses always take a form related the original wish, which in Homura's case was to redo her meeting with Madoka, with the power to protect her. So that's exactly what happened, and why Homura became so powerful. Although this means that Homura's power is likely only restricted to "protecting" Madoka (which includes suppressing her), so she likely doesn't have any special powers regarding things or people unrelated to Madoka.

Also, god-Homura was born of curse in a world where she couldn't become a witch, so she became something else (a "demon"). Not sure if "ascending" by power of curse is the cause of her new "I like being evil" attitude or not.

And, of course we have yet to learn anything about the ramifications of a world created by despair. Could be an interesting angle.

Also, Homura keeping Sayaka around with the slight potential to oppose her is quite interesting too. It basically proves that Homura is not entirely certain that she's doing the right thing for Madoka, doesn't it?

Originally Posted by Sayaka's sandbag

Just before Homu takes Mado's power to become Homucifer. :3

For you who's spoiled already it may not be such an experience. But for me, I'll never forget how sudden and terrifying it was. I doubt I'll ever experience a wham moment like that again in my life.

[Hachiko]

Holy smokes, I just realized something.

Spoiler for OMG!:

In the 3rd movie, Madoka at the end is a transfer student that spent three years in the States (hopefully California). This has to be a Barack Obama reference because Madoka is the symbol of hope, and Barack Obama's message during the lead-up to his first term in office was that: the audacity of hope. So it kinda made sense for Homura to be smart and make Madoka a Yank. Oh yes, and there is a town in Japan called Obama.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

By the way, regarding how things actually happened, I've come to more or less accept that it was the power of Homura's curse that she used to "ascend". Curses that make witches are said to be as powerful manifestations of despair as the wishes that make magical girls are of hope. And, curses always take a form related the original wish, which in Homura's case was to redo her meeting with Madoka, with the power to protect her. So that's exactly what happened, and why Homura became so powerful.

This is my theory. When Homura touched Madoka, she stole a fragment of the Cycle of Life, what she refers to as "the memory of Madoka before Madoka disappeared from this world." That gives her the ability to access the multiverse, and she uses it to connect her soul gem across all timelines. I mean, the curse in her soul gem alone isn't really all that powerful. She's just a magical girl after all, and one of weakest ones. But Homura looped time more than 100 times, so if she could tap into the curses accumulated in her soul gem in each and every one of those time lines... Well, that would give her power equivalent to Madoka's, if not even stronger.

Your theory seems quite plausible too, maybe more than mine. I'm on the fence with this, to be honest.

Also, god-Homura was born of curse in a world where she couldn't become a witch, so she became something else (a "demon"). Not sure if "ascending" by power of curse is the cause of her new "I like being evil" attitude or not.

That's not it. When QB sees that Homura's soul gem has something inside that it's darker than curses, he wonders why Homura's soul hasn't disappeared. Remember that when the soul gem of a magical girl is filled with curses, the soul gem breaks and the soul of the magical girl disappears. What is left behind is the witch. That's why Madoka wished to take care of witches before they were born. Once the witch is born, the soul of the girl is no more.

Anyway, Homura replies that her soul doesn't disappear because of an emotion that QB would never understand: love, which according to her is more powerful that either hope or despair (the plot kinda supports the claim).

Homura's neither a magical girl nor a witch because she's the single "being" capable of filling her soul gem with curses darker than curses while keeping her soul intact, which is an impossibility.

Although this means that Homura's power is likely only restricted to "protecting" Madoka (which includes suppressing her), so she likely doesn't have any special powers regarding things or people unrelated to Madoka.

Well, she covered the whole universe with her "barrier" so it's quite clear her power isn't restricted to Madoka and people related to her. Every life form in the universe is now affected by her power.

[Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

This is my theory. When Homura touched Madoka, she stole a fragment of the Cycle of Life, what she refers to as "the memory of Madoka before Madoka disappeared from this world."

Actually, I think this is an important either way. She needed the necessary pieces for human Madoka to even exist in the world again before she could build a new reality around her (regardless of the other details in her method of doing so).

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Remember that when the soul gem of a magical girl is filled with curses, the soul gem breaks and the soul of the magical girl disappears. What is left behind is the witch. That's why Madoka wished to take care of witches before they were born. Once the witch is born, the soul of the girl is no more.

Was this explained at some point, or is it conjecture? I always interpreted that the soul became the witch, rather than disappear.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

That's not it. When QB sees that Homura's soul gem has something inside that it's darker than curses, he wonders why Homura's soul hasn't disappeared.

As far as this timeline's QB is concerned, MG souls disappear due to the Law of Cycles taking them away. He had never even observed a real witch transformation, so I interpreted QB's observation to be surprise that the Law of Cycles wasn't taking effect.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Well, she covered the whole universe with her "barrier" so it's quite clear her power isn't restricted to Madoka and people related to her. Every life form in the universe is now affected by her power.

OK. What is her "barrier", exactly, do you know? Is it the same "witch's barrier" of hers that she was lost in for the first half of the film?