AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Retired M-Z > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2015-03-18, 09:12   Link #34961
Bluemail
Zero of the roulette
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Finland
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
In my theory, Rosa would have had created the forgeries, CotGW and the resolve to commit the murders between November 1985 and October 1986.
I'm nitpicking, but Legend, Turn and Confession aren't exactly "forgeries", as they are in fact written by "Ushiromiya Maria", the person behind Beatrice. Forgeries are fake message bottles by other people that are presented as written by "Ushiromiya Maria".

As an actual comment, why couldn't Rosa write the message bottles earlier? Sayo began writing the message bottles soon after hearing that Battler is going to return, surely if he would return a year earlier, the same could happen. But there not being all the resolve for the crime yet at that point is a valid answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
Again this is not perfect. If I may ask a question, how come a lot of people hate this theory? Rosatrice is actually a pretty good theory. I know a lot of its believers didn't even think to come up to this theory but still. It is plausible, possible, and consistent with the red truths in the story.
I think a lot of people hate the theory because its supporters often come off as elitists, who know "the real truth" most people are too stupid to notice, and many people jump on the bandwagon without thinking deeper about it themselves. It would be fine to present it as an alternative theory, but Ryukishi has already made it pretty clear what the real answer is. In my opinion Rosatrice is, while perhaps possible with certain logic, still inferior to Sayotrice in its ability to create a coherent answer to everything. Keep theorising about Rosatrice as an alternative solution, by all means, as it can evolve. But it can never replace Sayotrice as the driving force behind Umineko's mysteries.

I wrote a couple of blog posts countering KnownNoMore's Rosatrice videos some time ago, if you'd like to take a look:
http://heartofthegoldenwitch.tumblr....satrice-part-i
http://heartofthegoldenwitch.tumblr....atrice-part-ii

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
- Game 2: Rosa calling the servants furniture, a term that was created by Yasu and these words were heard by Battler himself.
It is entirely possible the Beatrice that bribed Rosa used the term before, in a letter, for example. Rosa just took on the word herself, or was instructed to use it. EP8 manga also says that "a servant has to be like furniture" is a rule of Genji's, so Yasuda might not have invented that term in connection to the servants after all. Rosa might have learned the term from him ages ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
- Game 2: In the meta-world, Beatrice seems to know of Rosa's bad experiences very well and what Rosa wanted to do to her siblings. Like, Beatrice said that Rosa wanted to bite off Eva's tongue. This seems like something someone wouldn't say out loud and would keep to themselves. Wouldn't this make Rosa a potential killer, wanting to kill or step over those that wronged her (e.g. EP7 when she didn't back Eva up)?
My theory is that the EP2 Tea Party is a meta representation of the letter Rosa received from Beatrice that invited her to be an accomplice to a murder game, what Rosa thought about it when she first read it and after she realised Beatrice was really going to kill everyone. She imagined her revenge, but when confronted with a real situation, she couldn't stomach it.

Also, Sayo too knows that the siblings didn't get along that well, and played with that to motivate Rosa. She might not know the exact words Rosa had in her head, unless she actually said it to Eva or someone else at some point, but maybe that isn't so important?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
- Game 4: Earth to earth. Illusions to illusions. When fiction is shut up inside a cat box, it becomes truth.

It is shown that the shutter was locked by George under Battler's surveillance and that he gave the key to Gohda via window. Taking Willard's solution into account, doesn't this translate George switching the labels of the keys or the wrong key? Doesn't this make George suspicious? Also, why would George not lock the shutter for Gohda and Kumasawa? If anything it should serve as a shelter for protection for the two of them, if the cousins believed that people were being killed.
George doesn't need to be the one to switch the labels on the keys, as long as Kumasawa and Gohda are in on it. They still think it's all a game, having lied about demons and witches to the cousins before. Also, none of the keys in the servant's room actually have labels, as seen in EP1. Gohda and Kumasawa would immediately realise there is something fishy about the key, but the cousins should not. I'm a bit proud about figuring out the solution to this closed room a long time ago, hehe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
- Game 6: Maria said that Rosa killed everyone (typed as "the others" by Witch Hunt). In Japanese, she said "everyone". Doesn't this point at Rosa having potentially killed everyone? We know that she only killed Sakutaro and Chiester 556, so that shouldn't translate as being "everyone". Plus Sakutaro was with her, so she should have at least referred to Chiester 556.
I think this is up to interpretation, and could refer to just 556 and Sakutarou. Couldn't there also have been more toys Rosa broke?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
That is a good interpretation right there. Your interpretation is the same one that I had in mind, but your is actually much more detailed and constructive.
Thank you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
- What's your take about the part that Higurashi is a novel in the VN, Lambdadelta and Bernkastel as TV characters in the manga and Higurashi as a TV show in the anime?
The Higurashi novel might have some relation to the one Ooishi and Akasaka wrote at the end of Himatsubushi-hen. Battler refers to Keiichi's mom as the mother of the main character, though, and I'm not sure that Ooishi and Akasaka would write that book from Keiichi's perspective. It is possible that Higurashi is a novel Ikuko released earlier, which I doubt, as she said that she hadn't shown her manuscripts to anyone before Touya. My guess would be that there is someone else in that fragment that had access to the meta world somehow, as a piece of a witch involved with Higurashi. Or it is a book based to a degree on real events in Umineko's world, perhaps written by someone from Higurashi. We don't know if it involves the plot of multiple timelines.

About the TV shows, well, Higurashi could have been adapted from the novel and... Bern and Lambda once happened to contact someone who thought they'd make great cartoon characters? Featherine is messing around? Don't think about it too much, you'll just get a headache. By the way, while everyone refers to the show in the anime as Higurashi, all clips are actually from the Urahigu skits that came with the Kai DVDs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
- Skylark 13 and Okonogi in 1998?
I do think that Amakusa Juuza is Skylark 13 and Okonogi is Okonogi. As in, they are the same people that appear in Higurashi, but in another fragment, where the Hinamizawa disaster might not have happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
- The Ange in the meta-world that said in red that she came from a world where nobody came home?
In the world where Battler and Eva survived, no one did come home to her. That means Rudolf, Kyrie or Battler. Gretel is the Ange from 1998 who thought that only Eva survived, and had yet to meet Touya. And even then Battler would never actually come home, but that isn't important.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
- The part when Ange was about to choose the trick ending and the magic ending, in the narration that narrated a bit on Ange's thoughts, there were the purple text of the words "left" and "right". Doesn't this suggest that Bernkastel is the true game master and that the Bernkastel and Battler that fought were pieces on a meta-level? What do you think?
I think that Beatrice just borrowed Bernkastel's idea, to highlight the question of if Beatrice can be trusted. Even if you trust everything she says, the sleight of hand is all logical. But if she lies as the culprit, she can also make it an impossible magic trick. I'm not actually sure about all of this riddle's implications, so I'd like to hear your interpretations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
- Also, have you read Higurashi Hou? There was also a phenomenon that seemed to resemble the meta-world when Hanyuu talked with Tamura-hime-mikoto. And it was also established that they were actually aliens, including Une. What's your take on this? Are they witches too?
I have indeed read Hou. While I'd like a clarification from Ryukishi how canon Outbreak and Kamikanshi-hen actually are, they have elements that fit. I think Hanyuu, Tamurahime no Mikoto and Une are metaphysical beings similar to those in Umineko that are born of the idea of the different tribes of brain parasites. The parasites are their vessels, the anti-fantasy version of them. The brain parasites cannot travel between fragments, but at least Hanyuu has powers similar to voyager witches in that she can observe different fragments. I don't remember if Tamura and Une did that. Them being aliens probably refers to the brain parasites originating from outer space, but could also refer to an ability to traverse the sea of fragments searching for a fitting one to live in.

Last edited by Bluemail; 2015-03-18 at 15:08. Reason: Whoops
Bluemail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-03-19, 11:03   Link #34962
Inbuiltx9
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Umineko-solution…part 2… showing that Im right... XD

I still have to read the answers (if I got one…-will do so!), but these days Im busy with RL and I also had to verify my theory.

And I found plenty of more hints, actually the whole of Umineko seems to be one giant puzzle now. Absolutely EVERYTHING hints at prime and at the meaning of the magical ending of Umineko.


Big hints in ep 4 to the ending of Umineko

Just look at episode 4. When Rosa destroys Sakutarou.
it opens a hole in Marias chest and she is becoming a black witch. She “hates, hates, absolutely hates everyone” and wants Rosa “to share the same fate.” Now if that isn’t a reference to Beatos/Sayos last feelings before she died…That’s basically repeating how Sayo felt when she became a black witch before the rokkenjima-accident. But... that is not REALLY true- cause sayo/beato never was a true witch (Ange says so at the end of ep 4 and lambda too: “if it weren’t for me, you wouldn’t even believe you were a witch yourself”)





Beato is no real witch+the meaning of TRUE Magic

So why is Beato no real witch? Because she needs someone to acknowledge her.
True magic is the possibility to create happiness in your world and change the world however you like. It doesn’t need ANYONE to acknowledge this magic, all this magic needs is for you yourself to believe in it. to understand that we were shown maria's past and that’s also hidden (or sometimes even clearly stated) in the talk between Ange and Mammon in ep 4.

Ange: "If you won't be satisfied enough until someone acknowledges you, that's the same as not acknowledging yourself..."

We all know that Beato always needs someone to acknowledge her – its Maria in her Mariage Sorciere, its Lambda at the start of the meta-world, where Beato didn’t know what happened and Lambda was needed for Beato to believe she was really a witch. Beato doesn’t acknowledge herself, therefore she is not a real witch (Ange ep 4 to beato: “its because you’re not a real witch”). Maria could have become a TRUE witch, she created happiness where there was none, and had friends and everything was fine, even though other people called her pitiful. But Maria didn’t care and her magic was the real thing, that’s why she could have become a witch of origins and make 1 from 0. But still, Maria was not wise enough yet, she was still depending somewhat on what other people said and believed, because she was too young (Im quoting ep 4 here) and so Ange really hurt her with her words. Maria ALMOST made it, but she too lost against the "red truth"...
Now let me say what ryukishi basically does here: he shows us what magic truely WOULD mean, what it WOULD BE capable of, but he uses the WHAT IF-story, because Maria didnt really succeed. We dont get to see "real magic" until the very end of episode 8...(ep 6 that was intended for that was interrupted, or: "abandoned")
While Maria in Mariage Sorciere was able to make 1 from 0, Beato could only make more from an already existing 1. And that’s why at the end of ep 4, the golden land falls apart once Maria leaves. There is no one who acknowledges Beato now as a witch, and since she has not reached the status of a “sapiens” (sorry let me borrow this word from the Stoa, cause it fits PERFECTLY), she alone cant sustain the world.

At the end though, Beato wants to share her world with battler, and not with maria. But battler doesn’t acknowledge her. And thats why he really is somehow torturing beato... Also, in prime the same happened before sayo died. He was “too late” in understanding it. battler being "Too late" is also a big reference to prime btw. its not just referring to the meta-world. Like, when Im checking my theory now, basically EVERYTHING is referring to prime...




I believe in magic now

Ep 4-Mammon: "We think, therefore we are. Whether you acknowledge or deny magic, the existence of the magic called the Seven Stakes of Purgatory...is therefore a fact."

And with this, you actually can believe in magic. My understanding was always: believe in magic and you can see it, but ultimately, that’s just a delusion, because the red says otherwise (“magic doesn’t exist”). But the concept of Umineko is not that. Its that magic really DOES exist as long as you believe in it. The truth of the world is different, but your own truth is forming the world. I don’t know if I explained it well – but the concept of Umineko itself is that the magic TRULY exists if you allow it to exist in your world. So its really not something cheap like “believe and you share the same delusions”.

We see what (white=true) magic really looks like for the first time at the end of ep 8, so I guess thats what ryukishi meant when he said he'd make everyone believe in magic with his last episode. Since magic is "autarchic" or "self-acknowledging",theres really no need to explain how this ending is possible even though Battler is dead. Its sufficient to say: magic exists.





They are ALL DEAD! after what happens in prime

Ep 4:
Mammon:"Do humans live so that they can be satisfied at the moment of their death?"
Ange:"Woudlnt it be pretty tough if you were unsatisfied about something at the moment of your death?"
Mammon: "If so, then humans live only so that they can meet a satisfied death."

That is Beato! Sayo died without being satisfied, and so did everyone else! “I wonder if Marias soul is still wandering about with a hole in her chest” (Ange ep 4). Yes she is! And when Maria gets Sakutarou back, she can finally rest peacefully (“leaves the golden land”). And sayo is full of grief too. Sayo DIED before being satisfied, she did NOT happily leave the island with battler. Battler was TOO LATE before she died. Like he is too late in the games as well. Everyone that dies goes to purgatory (like kasumi, mammon: “if you have the tiniest bit of virtue, well see each other in purgatory”).

Beatos death after the 5th game refers to her death in prime. And Battlers locked room in ep 6 refers to his locked room in prime, the beginning of the "world" in ep 3 refers to the beginning of the "world" in/after prime, the tests in ep 4 refer to the tests in prime, oh and beato changing her decision in ep 4 probably refers to a decision-changing in prime, etc. pp. its ALL conncected to prime. but we've been saying : "no, we cant know what happened in prime yet" -_- Thats pretty dumb...




The capsule-machine-scene in ep 4 is meaningful! and hinting at the ending of Umineko (who would have thought?!)

Even though they are all dead, Battler STILL manages to save beato. And I already explained how. Battler can actually grasp happiness quite easily. That’s what the capsule machine-scene is for. Ange ep 4: “Even though the content of the capsule was cheap, I wanted to grasp this tiny bit of happiness myself, but I couldn’t, so Battler Onii-chan helped me. After just 2-3 trials he easily grasped the capsule and gave it too me. At that time he really seemed to be so reliable”.
What Ange cant do – find happiness on her own, Battler can. And he says in ep 6 he understood “true magic”. Now, Im almost 100% sure he really created the happy ending/magic ending of umineko himself. Cause he can use true magic and thus create an ending sayo wished for. After a few trials (the first episodes) he can achieve happiness on his own easily. Magic is difficult, but after a few trials, he has no problems in using the most difficult magic there is. And he doesn’t need anyone to acknowledge the world he created, because that’s...well, thats what true magic is about.
Oh! and this! Bern ep 6: "then I will just leave, but, battler, you need an observer for your game." (beato always needed someone to "observe" her games.) Battler: "No, we dont need anyone to acknowledge our game but Erika and me ourselves". Makes sense NOW. Battler really understood magic there...



No he did NOT create the logic error on purpose

TRUE MAGIC is NOT something banal and lame like “Im able to trick everyone with my play-acting”. When he says “I completely understood magic” in ep 6, he means THIS, he refers to the magic-ending he creates. To the fact that he can achieve happiness for them.




Battlers role in the story and his character + black vs white magic

I always had the impression that, even though they always said it was battlers fault that everyone died in the first place, and even though they talked about “battlers sin”, that that was kinda harsh. After all, he had a habbit of talking without thinking (still has it with 18), he was only 12 years old, and his mother died shortly afterwards. He didn’t even neglect his promise on purpose, he just forgot…I know they say that is EXACTLY what his sin is, but I never really saw it as a true “sin” the way I understand the word. He might have caused it, but he never did anything on purpose. And that’s also why I always see him as the true "good guy" in the story. Beato is a black witch, I think we should think of him as a white “witch” - and in ep 4, Ange explained this concept: You should just take on the hatred another person feels and let it vanish with your white magic. Black magic does the opposite- it`s putting everything on someone else to get rid of one's own bad feelings. lambda ep 6: "We have to throw them into hell so we are sure we are still on this side." Also just think about erikas reactions in ep 6 "ah I understand. its nice to be finally on this side."

And I think Beato put a LOT of her hatred on battler (yes, she somehow hated him too (manga ep 7)) but he is “like a phoenix” and is always standing up. Honestly, I sometimes wondered if everything was alright with him XD, since he was never taking revenge and he "forgot too fast" (bern ep 8). I also found it strange how he was getting along pretty well with beato in ep 3, considering what happened in ep2. And how he would hear Beato out at the end of ep 4 and promise her to help her even though Beato had thrown him into the sea of oblivion and just let Ange die only moments before. And at the end , in the manga of ep 8, he says he forgives Beato, because more hatred would lead to nothing. And he even wanted to be friends with Bern, who was a giant a*** in ep 6. Battler was always honest. he was always presented as "innocent" (Ronove) and "pure for his age (Beato ep 4). the only “flaw” is his naivety – which also leads to him misjudging a situation over and over again. Like with ep 2 – he misjudged the servants “no one is guilty, kumasawa would never do something like that, nor would gouda nor…” –but they were ALL involved in it ;he constantly misjudged his family – especially striking in ep 4 when they all lied to him; in ep 6- he misjudged Erika; in ep 8, he misjudged Bern; in ep 3- he misjudged Beato and Virgilia and when he was 12, he misjudges the feelings of Sayo and didn’t realize what life she led and what that promise meant to her. Even Ange wanted to tell him in ep 4 he shouldn trust her because he wouldn’t know if she was on his side, but he still wants to shake hands just after hearing he shouldnt trust her. Though he immediately realized that he was "wrong" in doing so when Ange doesnt want to…
I think that’s pretty much what Virgilia refers to when she says in ep 5 that “there is a weakness Battler has”. That’s like a golden threat (no pun intended) in the story. Every mistake he makes stems from that, and so its also the reason why he never gets what he wants. his way of trusting everyone and forgiving everything is surely the harder one and he only gets is rewarded for his efforts in the last scene of the story, but his "naivety" is also the reason he can achieve true happiness. I think thats one of the main messages of umineko. In the end, he never ever is causing anyone harm on purpose. So his "stupid" behavior is not surprising anymore. If we really think along the lines “black magic vs. white magic” that really makes sense.

No he did not create the logic error on purpose XDDD Cant repeat it often enough XD

That’s why its so weird to say “battler understood true magic, he can make a fool out of everyone now by tricking people like beato did”. That’s like COMPLETELY going AGAINST EVERY CONCEPT that was ever established. like the one point that enables battler to save beato is now completely gone and he starts to trick and betray his opponents. It makes more sense to say: He understood true magic, and that is creating a world, where Beato can finally rest in peace, where he fulfilled his promise to her to take her away from the island, and where he makes it back to Ange. He NEVER EVER wants to trick anyone the way beato did in ep 3. But he is so naive that Erika -who is the complete opposite to him and doesnt trust anyone - could fool him completely (because that is the weakness of his character!). the reason ep 6 didn’t work out as planned is the same reason why nothing ever works out the way he wants it– because he is faaaaar too naÔve and wants to believe in the good side of his opponent... he always trusted the "wrong" people (that basically refers to everyone XD), so its really no wonder his plans were screwed up in ep 6 too.
the way I see it, thats another message of umineko: the way of trusting others and of forgiveness is very very hard, much harder than just to become a "black witch", but you'll be rewarded IN THE END -> With the magic ending AGAIN, not everything went exactly as planned but in the VERY! end, he made it. That is true magic, that is what he means by saying he is able to take beato out from the game-board. and this character trait of believing in the good side of someone is the reason he is able to let everyone find peace in his last game. saying : "oh, he manipulates everyone now, just like beato, isnt it wonderful!" (sarcasm) is completely destroying everything about his character and about the message of umineko.


Other

More proof that magic ending = battler-wrote-a-story-ending

I already said before that the magic ending in ep 8 is battlers story and how even the lyrics of Shikata Akiko (last song that plays when beato and battler drown in the sea) refer to that:
“Riposa in pace nel racconto, que ho scritto … ecco il mio ultimo incantesimo" (I dont know how to write Italian, I can only understand it)
Translation: “Rest in peace in the story that I have written. See here, this is my last magic”.

So, Im pretty sure with what Ive written until now, just because it all starts to make sense now…still have to read the answers (?) though.





with this, maybe Prime will never be revealed...

What I fear now!!! Is that Ryukishi might NEVER show what happened in prime. Because that way two stories exist at the same time -the one where touya/ikuko write a book and the one Im convinced of, where they are all in purgatory and battler manages to create a new world. And because ryukishi said in "our confession" that he reveals everything about beatos stories but that he wants the reader to understand the "third story" on his own... Im really afraid he will not show it. But even without it, IMO the Touya/Ikuko ending doesn’t make any sense at all and doesn’t explain anything, but I could think that Ryukishi wrote it this way for people who absolutely don’t want a metaphysical explanation to have an answer in Touya/Ikuko. Like I said – I don’t believe that this is what the story truly is about just because:
-you cant explain what true magic is
-you cant explain what battler means when he says “I completely understand magic now and I believe I can take you out of here”
-you cant explain what happened in prime
-you cant explain why Ange in the real world sees the same delusions that are only contained in a book that Touya/Ikuko write
-you have to explain a whole lot with “lie” “lie” “lie”
-your characterizations and concepts don’t make any sense (for example you have to say: "battler now FINALLY has learned how to trick everyone."... now if that wasn’t really a meaningful ending to his "journey" in his search for the blue bird…(sarcasm))
-your story has no message and follows no progression (mine is: battler from not-understanding-magic-at-all to create-a-whole-world & battler-coulnt-save-sayo-while-alive to battler-saves-beato-with-magic)

-but still, there are obviously enough people Ryukishi managed to "convince", even though it doesn’t make sense. AT ALL! I still hope for ryukishi to reveal prime though. the people who dont believe in magic can just say: then nothing ever happened, they all died in prime and noone made it out alive. The end. XD
I prefer: Its the story of some people who died without having their life fulfilled but they were saved with magic.

Last question I wanted to readress: "But Umineko is supposed to be mystery!"
The core of the story will always be a mystery. Because Battler has to find out who, how and why to even get out. Nothing is hindering the story though from amplifying itself in order to contain other, really great messages that cant be transported that well in a raw mystery, like the whole issue about the truth and the question about forgiveness and redemption. So there is really no problem to say: umineko is a mystery. but Umineko is also a fantasy.
And Im sorry to say, if I have to judge the genre of umineko (Ill be so bold here since I just finished my studies in literature) and decide for a shelf the librarian should put the book on, it would be fantasy no doubt. just because of the fantasy elements. they always (not just in umineko) overrule the mystery-elements so to speak. It doesnt matter at all if the fantasy elements are real or not in the story. Alice in Wonderland is not "drama" either, just because it was all a dream. Neither is the Wizard of Oz. So judging from this perspective, its always fantasy. That doesnt change the fact though that this fantasy in Umineko includes a mystery and thats what the core of the story is made of. Everything I mentioned now is only possible to understand if you solved beatos game-boards, and they are nothing more than pure mystery.

Last edited by Inbuiltx9; 2015-03-19 at 14:51.
Inbuiltx9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-03-19, 14:13   Link #34963
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Quote:
Like I said – I don’t believe that this is what the story truely is about just because:
-you cant explain what true magic is
-you cant explain what battler means when he says “I completely understand magic now and I believe I can take you out of here”
-you cant explain what happened in prime
-you cant explain why Ange in the real world sees the same delusions that are only contained in a book that Touya/Ikuko write
-you have to explain a whole lot with “lie” “lie” “lie”
-your characterizations and concepts don’t make any sense (for example you have to say: "battler now FINALLY has learned how to trick anyone"... if that wasn’t really a meaningful end to his story…)
-your story has no message and follows no progression (mine is battler from not-understanding-magic-at-all to create-a-whole-world, battler-saves-beato-with-magic)
Except none of this is true and you very easily can. If you're going to say Ryukishi managed to "convince" these people, it means that this is the logical intention made to take away from the novel.

People insisting Ryukishi is deliberately tricking the reader and they found the TRUE TRUTH HE SECRETLY MEANT are uh...kind of engaging in Death of the Author.

Which is antithetical to the themes of Umineko as established in episode 5 most obviously.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-03-19, 15:18   Link #34964
Inbuiltx9
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Quote:
Originally Posted by Higurashi-Z View Post
I don't have time now to read everything here about the discussion if battler planned the logic error or not but would like to remember that he hintet at that on ep 8 when playing poker with the cousins :

And another thing that I would like to say is that is that as far as i remember the scene about the logic error is the only when they about their next move as playing a card game with lambda looking what cards battler had on his hand. In all the other scenes they an anology about playing chess and not poker
Yes, he wins in the end! In the very very end!!! This quotations doesnt refer to only game 6, it refers to the whole of umineko. he loses every game, but in the very end he wins. thats the main point of the story, like I already pointed out. thats why this is said in ep 8, and not earlier. if you havent read the discussion, please do. Cause I think that it is showing it pretty clearly.

And yes, it was the only scene. But 1.) this is lambdas analogy. Its always! been like poker somehow from beatos perspective. And 2.) its because battler is the game-master now. we somehow see the story from his pov, which is "create a lie". Beato too was always thinking: what move could they make next? And acting and preparing accordingly. and 3.) most importantly its because of the strange rule where they blatantly lie just for the other to uncover that lie. here battler also notices that they act like politicians.
I dont see these two points as hints as suppporting any side of the discussion.
Inbuiltx9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-03-19, 15:48   Link #34965
Inbuiltx9
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
But Battler is doing the very same mistakes that Beato did again, both in EP6 and much more strongly in EP8. He IS to a certain degree accepting the role as a black sorcerer, just as much as Beato took on the role of the black witch, and he is running away with it, forgetting Ange's actual feelings.
Thats a good point! But I dont think he ever forgot Anges feelings. Actually, I think it even would have workes out if Bern didnt intervene. Because she was never meant to be a "player" like Bern told her. But Im not saying you're becoming flawless once you understood magic. I also doubt that he planned on Beato drowning herself. It just shows that you can never control and know what people think. Understanding the other is quite difficult.
And I also find it hard to say he took on the role of a black sorcerer just because he makes mistakes. He made a mistake in ep 6 too. Like I already said, he is naive, and thinks everybody will just get along. That is not "black magic" like beatos magic - black magic is defined as putting all the negative emotions on someone else and is not true magic, "but just a sin". Beato IS putting all her negative emotions on someone else-on the ushiromiya family before she died and also on battler (see at ep 8 -bern: "did you already forget what you went through?" Battler: There were times when I thought that too, but it was actually me torturing her all the time. And more hatred would lead to nothing".
Battler never ever did what beato did (I just wrote a post), and true magic, the "white magic" is doing away with all the hatred. So for him to make mistakes because of his naivety and misjudging the situations so often, is really not the same as becoming a "black sorcerer".

Quote:
EP8 basically spells it out what magic in Umineko is: It is learning to accept the truth, and then find a way to construct your life around it. What Battler is doing in EP6 is exactly the same thing that Beato was doing, except that he is shifting blame away from everybody close to him.
Looking at Dawn now, it has one very distinct feature that none of the other Episodes feature: Until Erika willingly steps up to become the murderer, there is no culprit, it is just a game. And when Erika becomes the culprit they weave the illusion of the witch around the victims, not the culprit. It is the ultimate present that Battler could think of.
Isnt that just what battler is doing if you think of battler planning for erika to be the culprit? thats One of the major reasons I think he DIDNT plan it that way. He would really be a black sorcerer if he just shiftet the blame onto erika. But he said he "understood true magic" and that is NOT true magic. That is BLACK magic. You say is a black sorcerer because he planned the ep 6 to happen this way. I say he didnt plan it this way because he is a white sorcerer.
And I also say: because he didnt plan it, the game was "abandoned". The game was called this way, it was never called "finished". But thats what it would be, if everything went according to plan, wouldnt it? We also dont know what battlers plans were, who was supposed to be the culprit (Battler himself?), if there was supposed to be a culprit at all.. We dont know.
The ultimate present Battler could think of is of course this: fulfilling Beatos wish. And what is Beatos wish? She clearly stated it, we dont have to guess: its for Battler to take beato away from the island. Battler ep 6:"Im able to get you out of the "game-board" (read:island, because the game-board only includes the island, look at the opening to have it illustrated ) , I believe that is your wish". Isnt it quite obvious what Battlers plans were for ep 6?
And not only ep 8 is saying what magic is - I think ep 4 is much much more interesting and revealing concerning magic.


Quote:
Actually, I think EP6 perfectly fulfilled the promise he gave to Beato and that is why he decided to give it only to Beato (which rings a little of, not releasing it).
If you think he fulfilled the promise thats good. Im glad we agree on the point that battler wanted to fulfill his promise in ep 6. But I think the promise was: I come back for you and Im going to take you away" and later on sayo always thinks while she waits "hurry, take me away from here already!". She suffers on this island, she is enclosed there (bird cage metaphor). I think the most important part of his promise is still missing in the end. Sayos wish was never for anyone else to be the culprit, no actually thats the least thing she would want. End of Ep 5: "Im the culprit! believe me! Im the culprit! Why wont you anyone believe me? Im never letting a human be the culprit!" So dont you think the wish battler wants to fulfill is the wish we know about, and not a wish we have to make up? We know about the wish that she wants battler to take her away from the island. And thats what happens and the end of ep 8.

I have to agree with what AT is saying here, you are searching for a problem where there technically is none. I don't even know if I'd call it a paradox.
Yes, the blood splatter here makes it quite likely this was meant to be Red Truth: There will be no people who were able to survive, when the seagulls cry. But, while it was always meant to imply the passing of the storm, this scene calls into question when this point in time "when the seagulls cry" is supposed to be. It is basically the same as her Red Truth that she "will not allow this story to have a happy ending" which, while true, is not necessarily true for everyone (Ange).


Maybe the differentiation that we are doing between personality and persona is a little bit to confusing while reading, so maybe instead of persona we should talk of identity.
For me, Sayo doesn't have a crisis of personalities, but of identities. This stems from both her actual identities - Yasuda Sayo and Ushiromiya Lion - being powerless (Sayo) or legaly non-existent (Lion), which forces her to use her work identity Shannon for all her problems. Yet, once she learns that her identity as Shannon might not suffice to fully express her full potential, she constructs other identities to express them. Out of fear of rejection she refuses to grow as one person and instead adds new identities, like tumors, to herself.


I would argue that, even Erika not falling for any of the traps would have been fine. In that case the game would have ended as just that, a game, and the explosion would have been disguised as the witch.
I would say, like I explained above, that Battler's only goal with this story was, to lift the blame from everybody, yet he wasn't above accepting Erika's readiness to become the villain of the play.


EP8 manga loudly cheering in the background


I would highly agree.
EP8 largely suggests that Battler/Tohya had never intended to contact Ange and that he had hoped that his stories would do the trick for him. It clearly shows that he hadn't expected the level of frustration and anger that had built in Ange over the years. He is actually revealed to be quite a dick in this one (and his redemption only kind of works, even in the highly editet manga version).


Actually, the TIP Gamemaster Battler gives a little insight into the process that Ryukishi implied to be happening in the meta-world. The Gamemaster is a god of sorts, yet he can't lie back but has to prepare every eventuality, every character background, every motivation in advance, or else the game breaks down.
We only have to make the logical jump and think of the gamemaster being an author again. If you don't prepare your plot accordingly it's forced to run into complications and plot-holes, which then can be abused by readers and critics to interpret your story differently than you wanted them to.


Yeah, I think the guy is just a little bit clumsy at expressing himself. But there's this stereotype that people who write the longest novels are the ones who are worst at directly expressing their thoughts...so that would fit.
I also wouldn't read too much into some of the throwaway lines in his interviews, at least not beyond the direct confirmations he gave for his plot ideas. I still think for example, that with this line he wanted to say that men and women act like that in life a lot of times, because they are taught to act like it, but it also drives them unhappy because they forget other important aspects.
But maybe that's just me expecting more from an author who actually wrote some quite inspiring characters.[/QUOTE]
Inbuiltx9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-03-19, 16:08   Link #34966
Inbuiltx9
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
But Battler is doing the very same mistakes that Beato did again, both in EP6 and much more strongly in EP8. He IS to a certain degree accepting the role as a black sorcerer, just as much as Beato took on the role of the black witch, and he is running away with it, forgetting Ange's actual feelings.
Thats a good point! But I dont think he ever forgot Anges feelings. Actually, I think it even would have workes out if Bern didnt intervene. Because she was never meant to be a "player" like Bern told her. But Im not saying you're becoming flawless once you understood magic. I also doubt that he planned on Beato drowning herself. It just shows that you can never control and know what people think. Understanding the other is quite difficult.
And I also find it hard to say he took on the role of a black sorcerer just because he makes mistakes. He made a mistake in ep 6 too. Like I already said, he is naive, and thinks everybody will just get along. That is not "black magic" like beatos magic - black magic is defined as putting all the negative emotions on someone else and is not true magic, "but just a sin". Beato IS putting all her negative emotions on someone else-on the ushiromiya family before she died and also on battler (see at ep 8 -bern: "did you already forget what you went through?" Battler: There were times when I thought that too, but it was actually me torturing her all the time. And more hatred would lead to nothing".
Battler never ever did what beato did (I just wrote a post), and true magic, the "white magic" is doing away with all the hatred. So for him to make mistakes because of his naivety and misjudging the situations so often, is really not the same as becoming a "black sorcerer".

Quote:
EP8 basically spells it out what magic in Umineko is: It is learning to accept the truth, and then find a way to construct your life around it. What Battler is doing in EP6 is exactly the same thing that Beato was doing, except that he is shifting blame away from everybody close to him.
Looking at Dawn now, it has one very distinct feature that none of the other Episodes feature: Until Erika willingly steps up to become the murderer, there is no culprit, it is just a game. And when Erika becomes the culprit they weave the illusion of the witch around the victims, not the culprit. It is the ultimate present that Battler could think of.
Isnt that just what battler is doing if you think of battler planning for erika to be the culprit? thats One of the major reasons I think he DIDNT plan it that way. He would really be a black sorcerer if he just shiftet the blame onto erika. But he said he "understood true magic" and that is NOT true magic. That is BLACK magic. You say is a black sorcerer because he planned the ep 6 to happen this way. I say he didnt plan it this way because he is a white sorcerer.
And I also say: because he didnt plan it, the game was "abandoned". The game was called this way, it was never called "finished". But thats what it would be, if everything went according to plan, wouldnt it? We also dont know what battlers plans were, who was supposed to be the culprit (Battler himself?), if there was supposed to be a culprit at all.. We dont know.
The ultimate present Battler could think of is of course this: fulfilling Beatos wish. And what is Beatos wish? She clearly stated it, we dont have to guess: its for Battler to take beato away from the island. Battler ep 6:"Im able to get you out of the "game-board" (read:island, because the game-board only includes the island, look at the opening to have it illustrated ) , I believe that is your wish". Isnt it quite obvious what Battlers plans were for ep 6?
And not only ep 8 is saying what magic is - I think ep 4 is much much more interesting and revealing concerning magic.


Quote:
Actually, I think EP6 perfectly fulfilled the promise he gave to Beato and that is why he decided to give it only to Beato (which rings a little of, not releasing it).
If you think he fulfilled the promise thats good. Im glad we agree on the point that battler wanted to fulfill his promise in ep 6. But I think the promise was: I come back for you and Im going to take you away" and later on sayo always thinks while she waits "hurry, take me away from here already!". She suffers on this island, she is enclosed there (bird cage metaphor). I think the most important part of his promise is still missing in the end. Sayos wish was never for anyone else to be the culprit, no actually thats the least thing she would want. End of Ep 5: "Im the culprit! believe me! Im the culprit! Why wont you anyone believe me? Im never letting a human be the culprit!" So dont you think the wish battler wants to fulfill is the wish we know about, and not a wish we have to make up? We know about the wish that she wants battler to take her away from the island. And thats what happens and the end of ep 8.

Quote:
I have to agree with what AT is saying here, you are searching for a problem where there technically is none. I don't even know if I'd call it a paradox.
Yes, the blood splatter here makes it quite likely this was meant to be Red Truth: There will be no people who were able to survive, when the seagulls cry. But, while it was always meant to imply the passing of the storm, this scene calls into question when this point in time "when the seagulls cry" is supposed to be. It is basically the same as her Red Truth that she "will not allow this story to have a happy ending" which, while true, is not necessarily true for everyone (Ange).
Well, no point in arguing about that any more I guess. My point is NOT if the red truth can be valid or not, my point is DOES IT MAKE SENSE TO PUT SUCH A RED TRUTH THERE. and Im looking at it from a story-telling POV. But this wont be resolved. I also find it hard to believe Eva died now, but this red truth doesnt make any sense for me. If you're perfectly fine with it thats ok too. I dont have any explanation anyways.

Quote:
Maybe the differentiation that we are doing between personality and persona is a little bit to confusing while reading, so maybe instead of persona we should talk of identity.
For me, Sayo doesn't have a crisis of personalities, but of identities. This stems from both her actual identities - Yasuda Sayo and Ushiromiya Lion - being powerless (Sayo) or legaly non-existent (Lion), which forces her to use her work identity Shannon for all her problems. Yet, once she learns that her identity as Shannon might not suffice to fully express her full potential, she constructs other identities to express them. Out of fear of rejection she refuses to grow as one person and instead adds new identities, like tumors, to herself.
Good explanation! Though I dont really think that this just comes from lion vs sayo, but more from the fact that she was never accepted. But apart from that, I completely agree with you.

Quote:
I would argue that, even Erika not falling for any of the traps would have been fine. In that case the game would have ended as just that, a game, and the explosion would have been disguised as the witch.
I would say, like I explained above, that Battler's only goal with this story was, to lift the blame from everybody, yet he wasn't above accepting Erika's readiness to become the villain of the play.
I disagree. His goal is stated, we dont have to guess: he wants to end the game completely, win for the witch, prove he completely understood magic and release beato from the game-board because he believes that is her wish. Nothing of that came true, so the game was abandoned. I dont think we need adicional intepretation here.
I also find it hard to believe that his goal was to lift the blame. because thats what umineko is NOT about - its saying: ACCEPT the faults and redeem yourself. Thats what purgatory is about. Not "it wasnt me, it was all her!". And thats also why in ep 8 manga, everyone confessed and readily accepted all of the sins. There is no more "putting blame on others". I can NOT imagine ANY situation in which battler with his characterizations and role in the game would EVER try to shift the blame on someone else.

Quote:
I would highly agree.
EP8 largely suggests that Battler/Tohya had never intended to contact Ange and that he had hoped that his stories would do the trick for him. It clearly shows that he hadn't expected the level of frustration and anger that had built in Ange over the years. He is actually revealed to be quite a dick in this one (and his redemption only kind of works, even in the highly editet manga version).
The point was: he is in a similar situation as Sayo. And he is afraid. Dude, he lost his memories. He doesnt have any feelings for Ange at all. How is he a "dick"? For a while he couldnt contact Ange at all, he only could have learned of her identity through the last book, all the others werent popular enough. And even though he didnt feel anything for this girl and was afraid he still wanted to meet Ange. How is he a dick??? I sure dont think he planned on losing his memories...

Quote:
Actually, the TIP Gamemaster Battler gives a little insight into the process that Ryukishi implied to be happening in the meta-world. The Gamemaster is a god of sorts, yet he can't lie back but has to prepare every eventuality, every character background, every motivation in advance, or else the game breaks down.
We only have to make the logical jump and think of the gamemaster being an author again. If you don't prepare your plot accordingly it's forced to run into complications and plot-holes, which then can be abused by readers and critics to interpret your story differently than you wanted them to.
Agreed. At least he has to try to think of everything. At some points even beato was having a hard time...
Inbuiltx9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-03-19, 17:41   Link #34967
Inbuiltx9
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Written without capitals, whatever the other one wishes XD Sorry for the many posts, I dont know how the multi-quoting works...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
PrimeBattler/Tohya didnít want to save any fantasy Ange. He wanted to save PrimeAnge. If he saved a delusion, a fantasy character, well, it takes away the meaning of the story.
At this point we wouldnít have needed Battler to create chick Beato in Ep 6, he could be content with fantasy Beato with whom he talks after chick Beato brough him the cookies.
-_- I dont know if you do it on purpose to misunderstand me or not XD But, no, because this one doesnt have her memories chick beato is not ok at first!. he accepts her later on though. But he is completely fine with this piece-beato that regained her memories, even though the game-master-beato is still dead...But my theory says Ange probably is the real person, so no point arguing about it.

Quote:
I think you hadnít understood what I said. I was referring to the fact that Erika was lead to believe the deaths took place when Battler screamed when instead it happened later on.
So what? We were discussing a red truth that declares a death, I dont care right now when Erika sees what.


Quote:
Creating words is decorating the truth. Those words do not exist. Beato didnít plan to have Battler becoming a writer and create words. She wanted him to understand her and to accept her.
I think you have a problem with understanding the concept of a book in Umineko. Beato also wanted something else apart from him understanding her heart and she said it countless times. Even the opening hints at it...

Quote:
This is the quote as reported in the VN:



Bern in the past was also a piece who was left alone solving a logic error. I can see her having a lot of fun knowing she has trapped not only the gamemaster but also the Piece that represents the gamemaster and that the both of them will have to deal with the logic error.
Yes, its the english quote. Thanks, but that wouldnt have been necessary. I know what it says. I wanted to check the japanese text though but I can just take a look at it myself. And I still say: I think she talks to the viewer there. Not once did they ever refer to game-master and piece together, lambda and bern say it was themselves that were trapped in the logic error and bern "when she was still a piece". I know the answer will be now: see, a "piece"!", but no, since there was no higher-layer bern the situation is slightly different here. But my point is: they were the very same person. it wasnt someone else. Really, your concept of piece and meta being clearly seperated is not working. The thing you assume here is pure speculation btw.

Quote:

Showing us a Battler thatís not PieceBattler in the closed room is just a fantasy scene like showing us Jessica killing Kyrie with her fists or Kanon pulling out a blade or Kinzo wandering around. There are tons of instances were the original pieces are Ďembellishedí if you prefer. For me itís more simple to call that Jessica a FantasyJessica because sheís clearly not the real Jessica but just a character in a fantasy scene.
Fantasy scenes or magic scenes, whatever term you prefer, are depicted so they seem to smoothly work with the Meta but actually are all an embellishment and this happens way more often than itís said that his soul is trapped there.
??? Of course it does, since a logic error is not something that happens all the time...I dont really get what you want to say. Because you havent answered to my arguments. I can repeat them again if you want to, but that doesnt really get us anywhere...

Quote:
I think you totally missed my point.
Umineko works this way:
A story is written. Then itís embellished. Then Meta characters discuss over it and they the player is unaware of what had happened beyond what the gamemaster will tell him even if the story involved him as well. That is unless he was raised to the level of Meta after taking part to the story as a piece (Battler switches to being Meta in Ep 1 Teaparty therefore he has experienced Ep 1 directly without Beatriceís narration and Erika switched it during Ep 5 and though weíre not make certain about at which point this happened exactly itís post when she was introduced to the characters).

We know that MetaBattler when was a player was totally unaware of what the piece representing him on the gameboard was doing beyond what Beato was telling/showing him. He even thought PieceBattler could be the culprit for all the gameboards!
This tells us that meta characters and pieces arenít one and the same even when PieceBattler was supposedly MetaBattlerís piece.
Now letís move to EP 5. In Ep 5 MetaBattler isnít involved in the game and yet weíre presented a scene in which he fight with Dlanor.
Can that be PieceBattler? PieceBattler is never depicted as Meta aware and Beato herself said that the Piece version of Battler shouldnít be able to see her but this Battler does.
That one who fight with Dlanor is FantasyBattler (or MagicBattler). In short the whole scene is all an embellishment. No fight ever took place and Lambda wrote that nice fantasy scene so as to cover up the real way in which Battler jumped outside. She embellished Battlerís escape from Kinzoís closed room.
And now youíve FantasyBattler whoís not PieceBattler nor MetaBattler. Heís just an embellishment.
And so, for more dramatic value, in Ep 6 Kanon, after going through walls, is shown as rescuing the trapped FantasyBattler who looks like MetaBattler.
Itís a beautiful embellishment but itís just that.

Umineko has fun referring to pieces, fantasies and meta characters as one and the same and it thematically work as theyíre, in a way, 3 versions of the same person.
MetaBattler didnít personally made the phonecall yet as he and PieceBattler share the same soul Erika accounts him as responsible for it. But if Battler was really the same person as PieceBattler he would know PieceBattler had killed no one.
I dont get what you want to say again. I said: the concept is not clear-cut so it doesnt work. I give countless examples where you see it. I never said they are the same - they arent. that was my point in the first place. but they "are" their pieces sometimes. You have a problem with explaining it all with your clear-cut-differentiation, or better said: you have to make an effort. I have no problem at all.
And sadly, Im getting slightly frustrated at not having my arguments countered Ive been saying fantasy is an embellishment all along, but there are no clear differences between the pieces. Thats why they call all the pieces in ep 5 tribunal together and only the normal pieces are there and only one! battler. because there is no clear-cut-difference between the layers. according to your clear-cut-boundary-theory there should be 3 battlers present. I say the concepts overlap, I dont say piece and meta are the same. Sometimes they are, sometimes they arent. Its just that. Your response sadly completely misses my point.

Quote:
Beatrice also had fun confusing Battler, moving his piece in such a way it seemed an extension of him, acting as if she could interact with the gameboard when it actually were all fantasy scenes.
MetaBattler was never killed by Beatrice in Ep 4 after she says ďIím going to kill you nowĒ. Itís never said he died.

If you donít see Metabeato body around in some episodes and she looks as if sheís on the gameboard itís because sheís clearly building up the illusion sheís a witch who can really interact with the gameboard and do magic and all. We know the scenes with Beato on the gameboard are fantasy. When this intention is dropped you can see in Ep 5 that MetaBeato is in the Meta while FantasyBeato is showing up in all the fantasy scenes. Sheís clearly not PieceSayo but just Natsuhiís fantasy.
This part about how beato wants to create this illusion that she enters the game-board is pure speculation and never hinted at.we + battler see that beato directly enters the game-board without leaving her body, and in the meta beatos illusions dont matter. thats exactly what i mean when I say you have to make an effort to support your theory. and we see how battler takes eva-beatrice into the meta. And the fact that the pieces are called pieces even in the meta...and why pieces are able to become "aware of themselves" and leave their game-boards like bern. absolutely everything shows there is no clear-cut-boundary.

Quote:
The court is definitely not held on Rokkenjima. Itís either fantasy or meta, more likely meta than fantasy but it can be a mix of both as fantasy works just fine in the meta and itís presented as real (though Dlanor implied that also is just an embellishment and Virgilia never made her tea with magic).
FantasyMaria isnít invited in the court because she had no relevance whatsoever with Ep 5. You might have noticed they didnít invite Sakutarou either.
Im fine with no fantasy-people being there since I dont think theres a clear-cut-difference between the layers. sakutarou is not on rokkenjima in 1986 in the first place. I dont care that much where the court was held - its the meta or "hell", but if you want to know - its correspondance is kinzos chapel on rokkenjima. you speculate that thats the reason - that they had no relevance. maybe, maybe not. there are no hints for what you assume. she did take part in the plot. if they assemble every piece, then fantasy-piece-maria must be present too, even though she only has a small role. they are probably the souls of the dead anyways, so no wonder that in the court there is only one of them present each time. so you say the court is in the meta, and mixed with fantasy so that its possible for there to be two beatos - the piece and the game-master? Thats the point "you're making an effort" to sustain your theory again. Dlanor never accepts magic, no matter where she is. the fact that she was "summoned" to beatos world is already magic. its just her role to not accept it. Dont think too hard about it.

Quote:
Really, even if I cut your reply so as to keep the message not overly long, I get your point. I simply do not agree with it. Itís pretty logic you donít have a problem with your theory asÖ well, itís your theory.
no, thats not logical at all, since theories can have flaws. and Im kinda sad that we really got nowhere since you only assumed I had postulated things I never did. and ive even explained that all before too...but with your statement, that is pretty much the end of any discussion.

Quote:
Through all Umineko characters weíre made aware of the embellishments in details. We get a really long, detailed scene of Kanonís beautiful rescue of Battler. That fantasy scene is the embellishment thatís a fundamental part of the story and that covers up how Shannon left the room she was in, dressed up as Kanon, took his identity, switched place with Battler and then dropped said identity.
Often in Umineko Beato has then summarized the magic scene so that the discussion could keep short.
I see no reason to make a long scene disappear from the story.
Sadly, again, I have no idea what you want to say with your answer. Im not saying at all it should disappear, Im saying the layers are mixed! Im saying this happened because its not! just fantasy-embellishment. Im sorry, dont take it wrong, but I really think there is no point in repeating again what I said, especially since, as you pointed out, my post should have been long enough already to make my point come across. Appearantly it wasnt.

Quote:
So, if you think itíll be suicide why didnít Lambda say this would kill him and everyone else but just told him heíll lose the only precious thing he was left by Beato?
The only precious thing left by beato is the game-board. and this wouldnt just kill battler, it would repeat what happened at the end of episode 3. they showed there what happens when the game-board is ripped apart. I dont have to speculate here. its just that beato was only pretending back then, but you can already see what happens.

Quote:
The term piece doesnít refer to just the pieces on the gameboard.
Pieces is a general term to refer to someone/something who is/can be used or manipulated to further another person's purposes.
ChickBeatoís purpose was to serve Battler and in a way Battler, by placing her on the gameboard, gave her some sort of life. Remember that ChickBeato is the personification of the rules a bit like Dlanor id the personification of Knox. So placing Beato on the gameboard doesnít mean placing a person on the gameboard but just using on that gameboard the rules.
MetaAnge is a piece in EP 4 but sheís not on the gameboard.
A fantasy piece is just a fantasy. It doesnít exist. Itís an embellishment, a fantasy explanation. As soon as the fantasy scene ends, goodbye fantasy piece. It disappears and it can reappears later on for another fantasy scene.
FantasyBattler ran nowhere once left out of that room because that scene was purely fantasy and never happened as depicted. PieceBattler might have been told to ran away so that when Erika would be there she wouldnít see him.
FantasyBattler is just an embellishment, heís neither PieceBattler who has to act as a real person nor Meta Battler whoís busy being forced to marry Erika.
Piece refers to any being thats on a layer under your own. Im aware of that.
Im asking you again then, who is fantasy-battler in the room that experiences everything? Noone sees him there. There is no point in embellishing anything. Im not even arguing for a fantasy-piece-battler, Im arguing against it. And Im asking you again (...) why erika says to him "get yourself out of the room first". But lets stop here, if I may borrow your words: "Itís pretty logic you donít have a problem with your theory asÖ well, itís your theory." You still havent answered why fantasy-piece-battler forgot everything, but I dont mind anymore. Lets end the discussion at this point because I just have to repeat myself.

Quote:
So what exactly is the scene weíre told in which weíre shown that Kanon goes through walls? Itís just a fantasy scene.
??? yes? I know, its the fantasy-layer. But it should be the same layer she just said the rescue happens on. when in fact, its not. But Ill stop here.

Quote:
No, Iíve not. Iíve just explained you how it works.
Please, donít assume that Iím making baseless theories or that I didnít run through all Umineko testing them.
And please dont assume Im assuming that. All I say is that they dont make much sense. There are still questions you just ignored. I can see your theory working more or less, I can also see Rosatrice working more or less, Id rather stick with whats said in umineko itself though. Here for example: "His soul is locked in the room" and not "his fantasy-piece is locked in the room". But the discussion has become pointless here.

Quote:
So we just have to cut that sentence because it doesnít fit to your theory? There are instances where itís mentioned family gathering werenít always perfect. Battler was scared by Kinzo who showed him the stakes. Battler was scared by Rudolf and Eva who told him about the witch wandering on the island. It makes plenty of sense that one day he felt asleep while on the island, was left in a room to sleep, woke up alone and got really scared. Weíre also told that Battler was prone to get scared as a child right in Ep 1 when he remembers how Rudolf told him that the monsters that were scaring him were just fantasy. We arenít told everything that happened to all his 12 family gatherings after all.
He didnít have to repeat in each and every game that hey, once he got scared because he woke up alone in a room.
I really donít get why youíd jump into interpreting things like Rudolf fearing to be killed as meaning he was killed by Kyrie in Prime (he was much more likely killed by Eva).
At this point I dont know if I should laugh or cry about these answers...Im not! cutting the sentence. But did you even read my post? That is not meant in a sarcastic way, Im honestly asking that, because again, your answer sadly makes not much sense. I even explained the sentence. The whole second paragraph of what you're quoting is explaining it.
And if you want to call those scenes you mentioned "horrible memories" I dont mind. If you want to invent a random, unimportant scene where battler was in a room he didnt know, I wont mind either. If you want to say every scene in Umineko we see is randomly referring to stuff that is not important at all, even that -I dont mind it at this point. I just have to repeat myself here: Im saying pretty much everything in Umineko has a meaning (why Im saying that even that! I already explained) and is referring to something. I say I can reconstruct prime and find other hints that fit.And we never get to know clearly what this part of Battlers thoughts are referring to, but again, I have already said all that...
Yes, you didnt get what I meant. Rudolf is saying "I will probably be killed" and he himself thought "I will probably be killed by Kyrie". We all thought "he will be killed by the culprit and rudolf knows something" when in truth, his sentence was not referring to this assumption but "only" to being killed by kyrie. Im not jumping to anything, Im just repeating what is said (manga, ep 8). It doesnt have anything to do with who he was killed by in prime.


Quote:
No offense but I think youíre taking too much creative interpretation with Prime.
No offense taken. Im taking the hints we get and I put them together. Im not randomly inventing stuff. I wont say "this refers to a scene we never had a hint to" or "this is referring to a scene we never got to see". What I find far worse is to assume we shouldnt be able to reconstruct prime after ep 8. But its pointless to discuss this, if you dont take the hints given and just say "its impossible, not enough information yet". So lets stop it here.

Quote:
Youíve just told me youíve to interpret differently how Battler said he was scared as a child and made huge jumps between what was presented to us and what you thought happened in Prime but when I say Iím considering part of the plot a scene youíre saying Iím interpreting things differently and this is wrong?
Iím going by what is described in the manga. Weíve a lovely fantasy scene to use as reference. And plenty of instances in which fantasy scenes were just the depicted embellishment used for the story of whom characters were made aware.
Honestly I skipped that part of that answer because I didnít agree with the basis for your interpretation so to me it was pointless to discuss it.
No, I didnt make any jumps and was only sticking to what is said. I cant help it if you didnt read my explanation of battlers "when I was very young". Im metaphorically interpreting, but I NEVER (yes, the evil capitals) invented scenes the way you did without there being any hints. Please dont mix that up.

Quote:
Iím not sure if Iíve understood your question fully but we were shown in Ep 5 that the gamemaster can withhold some red truths (Cornelia was forbidden from using a red truth) and that Dlanor can seal some possibilities (Battler wasnít allowed to use red to state that Kinzo was dead even though he was a wizard and territory lord).
Also, Dlanor and Co in truth do not exist. Theyíre just an insurance that some rules in the game will be respected. Cornelia and Geltrude are revealed to be nothing else but personifications of the seals. They have awareness of facts Erika wasnít informed of and either has no obligation to inform her or canít.
Cornelia said to Dlanor she was forbidden by Lambda to use that red truth but not to Erika. If she had told Erika maybe she would have been spared from punishment.
Dlanor, although used by Erika as her ally, is stated more than once as someone impartial.
Sheís, after all, a personification of rules that can serve Erika but also can work against her.
In this case Dlanor most likely had instructions to not allow a certain interpretation so he sealed the possibility to use it. Since Beato told Erika that she could remove that seal (not the seal on the window, the seal that stopped people from using that interpretation), evidently Erika took advantage of her position of Ďstand iní for Battler to act as gamemaster and stop a certain info from being used.
As Gaap said the windows were never checked but very likely the doors werenít personally checked by Erika either. She just got Battlerís red that the seals were still in place. In order to check the windows she either has to climb on the walls again (though Iím not sure that from the outside she could make sure if the seals are still in place or the window is merely closed) or she has to break the seals on the doors to enter in and check if the seals on the windows are still on work.
Well, there wasnt a question in the first place. I agree with almost everything you said and I agree with everything I said. No prob here.

Quote:
It was discussed long ago. The gist of it is that each character donít just represent a single sin. Eva is definitely as prideful as Natsuhi if not more, very prone to fall into wrath, greedy for a position thatís not hers and envious of how Krauss got it easily.
Rudolf is definitely a victim of sloth but heís also greedy for money and canít keep his pants on.
RosaÖ well, I guess she got lust because sheís desperate for a man but when Maria does something that upset her sheís just wrath.
Pride is something you can actually apply to most of the characters, starting with Battler and going with Kinzo, Krauss, Natsuhi, Eva, George and, in a way, even Jessica.
Gluttony fits with Hideyoshi but we know Battler is a glutton too and itís implied George is as well and the same applies to Maria.
Sloth works for Rudolf but also occasionally for Battler, Gohda, Kumasawa, and possibly Rosa. In a way for Kinzo too if we consider him prior to meeting Beatrice. In a way this works with Genji also as heís more of a passive observer of Sayoís drama but thatís up to interpretation.
Envy is Kyrie but also Eva, possibly Natsuhi (sheís not happy how sheís the only one not having the one wing on her clothes), George, in a minor way Jessica, vaguely Hideyoshi (he claims heís jealous of Rudolf here and there but in a totally not unhealthy way so I donít think itís anything big), Kanon, Shannon before coming to an agreement with Beatrice, Rosa.
Lust is used for Rosa but could also be used for Rudolf and Kinzo and I guess Battler. Sheís also used with Jessica and Eva.
Wrath works for Eva but also for Rosa. Natsuhi too can be worked up to wrath (though she requires more built up) and Battler as well is very prone to get angry but he cools down quickly. Kinzo is definitely prone to wrath and so is Jessica whoís slower to cool down than Battler. Krauss too has his wrath moments even if he manages to control them better.
Greed fits all the siblings and their husbands/wives, George, Kinzo, in a way Maria (she was greedy for her mother love but thatís pretty understandable), Shannon and Kanon, vaguely Battler (even if he represses it).
If we include Erika also weíve her being represented by pride, wrath, lust, sloth (she didnít check the corpses), envy.
A character can look more prone to fall into the same sin but thatís all. They arenít personification of a sin, theyíre real people who commit various sins. Thatís why the stakes used on them occasionally differ.
... hopefully I hadn't forgotten anything that was said...
I hope this helps.
Yes, thanks for the explanation. Glad to find a solution.

I feel like Don Quijote and Sisyhos at the same time now though. Please dont take any offense from that, but I I might not answer immediately if you want to reply - Im busy with real life anyways. I also think a large part of the discussion has become pointless, and you wanted to end it too so lets just do that and think about something that will lead to a more fruitful discussion.

Last edited by Inbuiltx9; 2015-03-19 at 18:47.
Inbuiltx9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-03-19, 18:34   Link #34968
Bluemail
Zero of the roulette
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Finland
Age: 24
Inbuiltx9, I like your character analysis of Battler and agree that he did not create Dawn with the intention of being caught in a logic error. I think the card game in EP8 hints at what happened after the logic error occurred. Battler knew he could solve the closed room with Shkanon, but decided to feign defeat for the chance that Beato could solve it and revive. And as haguruma said, he intended to 'lift' the blame from everyone, without 'shifting' it on anyone. As in, the murders were all supposed to be a game, until Erika ruined it. I guess the bomb device still activates by accident without anyone to blame somehow, to keep it consistent with reality.

I do not agree that Ikuko and Touya's story is just a world created by Battler. Battler can create game boards within Rokkenjima as an Endless Sorcerer, but he doesn't have powers on the level of a creator witch. I think Featherine is the only one we know who is capable of creating a complete world outside Rokkenjima. I believe that meta Battler and Touya are separate entities, but Touya's struggles with his former identity and what happened on Rokkenjima are what created the meta Battler we know. It is similar to how Bernkastel was born from Rika's struggles in Higurashi.

I believe the lyrics of Ricordando il passato refer to Battler casting a spell for Beato, instead of creating a world for Ange. I like your theory that the boat scene in the magic ending is the ending of Dawn a lot. In it he fulfills Beato's wish of taking her out of Rokkenjima, and lays her to rest at the bottom of the sea with himself by her side. While that exact song is played.

I also don't think that EP6's memory of being locked in an unknown room has that much to do with what happened in Prime. I'd rather think it's indeed Battler or perhaps Ange's (the next scene is Ange waking up in the Hachijou estate) childhood memory. Remember, the narration mentioned familiar voices coming from somewhere close. At what time in Prime would Battler be locked alone in a room while the others were spending time together nearby? I also like haguruma's idea that the locked room is a parallel to Touya's situation.


Now then, what exactly happened on Rokkenjima in Touya's world? What we know to be true is the contents of Eva's diary, basically EP7's Tea Party. We also have what Touya tells Ange when he reveals himself as Battler.

"On that day, I escaped through the underground passage. I was told that an underground passage led to a hidden mansion on the opposite side of the island. However, the place we escaped to was a submarine base, not Kuwadorian. From there, I got away on a motorboat. However, it must have capsized somewhere along the way."

What I find curious is that he says that someone told him about an underground passage to Kuwadorian. Then he says "we" escaped to a submarine base, but only "I" got away on a motorboat. I checked that the Japanese was consistent with this translation. Ange's thoughts say that "at any rate, he went into the underground passage, split up with Aunt Eva there, and escaped to the submarine base". Is this plausible, or just Ange's mistaken interpretation? Is Touya's memory too hazy to use the exact wordings of his testimony as clues?

There are a couple of possible candidates for who told Battler about the underground passage. Eva, who was still alive, Rudolf, who called him to meet him in front of the chapel, and possibly Beatrice, as she was with him in the boat scene of the magic ending and we cannot be 100% sure if she died when she was shot by Kyrie. It's also possible the other one in "we" is the same person.

If we assume that Eva is this person, there are a couple of questions. First, would Battler trust Eva's story over his dead parents? Would Eva trust Battler? Second, why didn't they stay together, and Battler escaped on the motorboat while Eva escaped to Kuwadorian? Third, why didn't Eva ever tell Ange that Battler did not die, or was alive at least the last time she saw her?

What if it was Rudolf? I personally like the idea that Rudolf would try to save him from Kyrie even if he refused to help them. Assuming Kyrie was not listening in on the converstation, he would tell Battler about the underground passage on the phone and tell him to escape. Rudolf could have helped him even after that, but he was then killed by Eva. Again, lingering questions remain. First, would Rudolf betray Kyrie for Battler? Second, did Rudolf know about the submarine base? If he only knew the passage went to Kuwadorian, he and Kyrie would eventually meet Battler anyway as they would need to go there to avoid the explosion. Was Rudolf just buying time, perhaps enough to tell Kyrie that Battler really is her son? Third, who was the other person in 'we', as Rudolf died before meeting Battler? Or was he actually able to meet Battler before Eva caught up with him?

Was it Beatrice herself, after all? She survived the massacre and met Battler. She explained the situation to him and they escaped to the submarine base. Beatrice refused to go, but Battler escaped. First question: why was it shown that Beatrice was shot if she survived? Did she somehow survive even if Kyrie shot at her? Second, how much did Beatrice tell Battler and would Battler trust her? Third, why didn't Beatrice escape with Battler? In the magic ending, Battler 'kidnapped' her, but did this happen in reality?

I'm doubtful about the Eva theory and while I like the Rudolf idea thematically, I think the Beatrice explanation might answer everything. To save Beatrice, we need to assume Kyrie either did not actually shoot at her (Only Eva's assumption of what happened? Why wouldn't it happen?), the bullet did not hit (faulty Winchester) or she survived anyway with injuries that caused blood to trickle from her mouth (as the narration tells us). In that case I'm asking honestly: can we be sure if Ryukishi intended for the EP7 Tea Party to contain any falsehoods at all? Or is it all truth, as the red words imply?


I also want to share my thoughts about Kyrie's characterization in the EP7 Tea Party. While the sprites in the VN don't show much craziness, it's a whole different deal in the manga. I had too much love for Sayo before, thinking she never intended any real murders, I was thinking I could so to say 'lower my standards' for Kyrie too. I believe Kyrie might have actually turned as cynical and uncaring as presented. I thought that Kyrie might have been some kind of psychopath from the start, which could make an interesting character in itself, but then I thought about her character in EP8. I believe what was shown about the characters on Battler's final game board was not made up and it was part of their true hearts, even if only a little bit. So Kyrie at least had the possibility of caring about Ange.

I believe everything goes back to the switching of Kyrie and Asumu's babies. Because of it Asumu was able to take Rudolf from him, essentially by using Battler as a chain to bind him. Her hell of jealousy twisted her personality, and by the time Ange was born, she was ingrained with the thought that children are just chains. This is why she says to Eva that she never really cared about Ange. When Rudolf finally tells Kyrie that Battler was her son all along, Kyrie realises what could have been and what she could have avoided becoming.

Last edited by Bluemail; 2015-03-19 at 18:48.
Bluemail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-03-19, 19:55   Link #34969
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
Written without capitals, whatever the other one wishes XD Sorry for the many posts, I dont know how the multi-quoting works...
Thank you, this is greatly apprecciated! ^_________^

And now I apologize. I'm sorry, I'm not misunderstanding you on purpose but I've honestly having quite a lot of troubles following you.

I keep on getting the feeling that I'm talking about something but either I'm not driving my point or we end somehow talking about two different things without realizing which maybe gave you the feeling I didn't read your posts apparently more than once since you mentioned this twice in your reply and you hinted at it previously as well.

I did. I read post before replying to them. And if I take time in replying is because due to work I end up having to do it late at night.

But well, if you think the discussion has become pointless, and you wanted to end it I've no problems dropping it.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-03-19, 20:21   Link #34970
Inbuiltx9
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
Inbuiltx9, I like your character analysis of Battler and agree that he did not create Dawn with the intention of being caught in a logic error. I think the card game in EP8 hints at what happened after the logic error occurred. Battler knew he could solve the closed room with Shkanon, but decided to feign defeat for the chance that Beato could solve it and revive. And as haguruma said, he intended to 'lift' the blame from everyone, without 'shifting' it on anyone. As in, the murders were all supposed to be a game, until Erika ruined it. I guess the bomb device still activates by accident without anyone to blame somehow, to keep it consistent with reality.
Thank you! I was hoping for such a discussion about this locked room!
Hmm, thats of course possible, it fits with everything if he wanted to give beato the chance to solve the room. i cant think of anything that makes me disagree. but couldnt it also be that he just didnt know about the windows? I mean, at the end the window seals not being checked seems banal (thats also an argument in your favor) but every trick seems simple once you know how it works, doesnt it? and erika appearantly was convinced she would trick battler with that. though really, like I said - your theory is completely valid as far as I can see and I accept it as a possibilty.
Oh, then I misunderstood and I apologize. I assumed by "lifting it from everyone" it implied "shifting it to erika". but just "lifting it" - thats completely in line with what I was thinking about. the bomb could actually be the intended culprit XD Yes, might be the bomb activates...

Quote:
I do not agree that Ikuko and Touya's story is just a world created by Battler. Battler can create game boards within Rokkenjima as an Endless Sorcerer, but he doesn't have powers on the level of a creator witch. I think Featherine is the only one we know who is capable of creating a complete world outside Rokkenjima. I believe that meta Battler and Touya are separate entities, but Touya's struggles with his former identity and what happened on Rokkenjima are what created the meta Battler we know. It is similar to how Bernkastel was born from Rika's struggles in Higurashi.
that is another possibilty as well!!very interesting!!! Ill think about it! But then, in your opinion, what is he referring to when he says "The gameboard will probably vanish, but I now completely understand magic and I think I can take you out of here. I believe that is your wish." Doesnt it fit perfectly with the magic ending we saw? And doesnt it imply that by understanding magic you're able to take beato out? And all of that occurred on the third day on the island, while beatos game-baord only takes place on the first and second day. So Id say- with magic he let her get out. and that also means his magic reaches further than beatos game-board. also this: you could also say that since the game-board vanished and battler is creating a new world that doesnt have anything to do with the original two days where beato influences the events, there is no contradicition with battler being able to make his magic last this long.

"I think Featherine is the only one we know who is capable of creating a complete world outside Rokkenjima."
But isnt battler more or less featherine?
But I really like your higurashi-reference very much too, because it wouldnt be the first time the same ideas in the two stories are used. So then how would you explain the "Ange-paradox" at the end (see further below) with this theory? im interested.

Quote:
I believe the lyrics of Ricordando il passato refer to Battler casting a spell for Beato, instead of creating a world for Ange. I like your theory that the boat scene in the magic ending is the ending of Dawn a lot. In it he fulfills Beato's wish of taking her out of Rokkenjima, and lays her to rest at the bottom of the sea with himself by her side. While that exact song is played.
No wait, I meant to say, that the world he creates is a world for Ange AND Beato. But, primarily for Beato because thats what he owes her after making her suffer so much.

Quote:
I also don't think that EP6's memory of being locked in an unknown room has that much to do with what happened in Prime. I'd rather think it's indeed Battler or perhaps Ange's (the next scene is Ange waking up in the Hachijou estate) childhood memory. Remember, the narration mentioned familiar voices coming from somewhere close. At what time in Prime would Battler be locked alone in a room while the others were spending time together nearby? I also like haguruma's idea that the locked room is a parallel to Touya's situation.
I dont believe everything that is a reference to the real life has to be exactly as it occured. Like with the test in ep 4, the places in prime were completely different and the "question" was too...(none in prime). and I interpret the voices are him longing for his family. did you by chance read my long post about prime one/two pages ago? I tried to explain when it could have happened -after what we get to see in episode 7 would be my guess. then its still the night of the first day, something still happened on the second day. but by that time everyone was already dead ("something big happens while I was compeltely unaware").
Also please consider this: the memory-part this person X (ange?/battler?) experiences in the room and when X hears the voices occur while this person is also shown the red text that is exactly the same as battlers logic-error room, isnt it? and all the thoughts with the bath-room and the closet and the window and the witch biting of this persons ring-finger. I really think this refers to battlers experiences in ep 6. And X is battler after having lost his "heart" by the ring, because they said he wouldnt be able to think about how to leave the locked room anymore after that. Not remembering anything about the situation he is in fits. So while I do agree the voices could be seen as a counter-argument, I think of them metaphorically as only him thinking there is someone he wants to see again. or even like this: as someone mocking him-the voices makes him long to go there but he cant. It wouldnt be the first time-he was made fun of by letting him think he can get out of the door too...If what I think is right, that it IS battler there, there are no voices anyways, they would only his hallucination/someone mocking him, because on the game-board, everyone else is in the guest-house while he is in the mansion.
Oh but listen to this: it could also be that when battler died in the locked room, he already "heard" the voices of the people of afterlife and he wants to leave the room to be able to meet them. What do you think about that? But yes, I also like hagurumas idea very much. in a certain way, I even read it like that too.

Quote:
Now then, what exactly happened on Rokkenjima in Touya's world? What we know to be true is the contents of Eva's diary, basically EP7's Tea Party. We also have what Touya tells Ange when he reveals himself as Battler.

"On that day, I escaped through the underground passage. I was told that an underground passage led to a hidden mansion on the opposite side of the island. However, the place we escaped to was a submarine base, not Kuwadorian. From there, I got away on a motorboat. However, it must have capsized somewhere along the way."

What I find curious is that he says that someone told him about an underground passage to Kuwadorian. Then he says "we" escaped to a submarine base, but only "I" got away on a motorboat. I checked that the Japanese was consistent with this translation. Ange's thoughts say that "at any rate, he went into the underground passage, split up with Aunt Eva there, and escaped to the submarine base". Is this plausible, or just Ange's mistaken interpretation? Is Touya's memory too hazy to use the exact wordings of his testimony as clues?

There are a couple of possible candidates for who told Battler about the underground passage. Eva, who was still alive, Rudolf, who called him to meet him in front of the chapel, and possibly Beatrice, as she was with him in the boat scene of the magic ending and we cannot be 100% sure if she died when she was shot by Kyrie. It's also possible the other one in "we" is the same person.

If we assume that Eva is this person, there are a couple of questions. First, would Battler trust Eva's story over his dead parents? Would Eva trust Battler? Second, why didn't they stay together, and Battler escaped on the motorboat while Eva escaped to Kuwadorian? Third, why didn't Eva ever tell Ange that Battler did not die, or was alive at least the last time she saw her?

What if it was Rudolf? I personally like the idea that Rudolf would try to save him from Kyrie even if he refused to help them. Assuming Kyrie was not listening in on the converstation, he would tell Battler about the underground passage on the phone and tell him to escape. Rudolf could have helped him even after that, but he was then killed by Eva. Again, lingering questions remain. First, would Rudolf betray Kyrie for Battler? Second, did Rudolf know about the submarine base? If he only knew the passage went to Kuwadorian, he and Kyrie would eventually meet Battler anyway as they would need to go there to avoid the explosion. Was Rudolf just buying time, perhaps enough to tell Kyrie that Battler really is her son? Third, who was the other person in 'we', as Rudolf died before meeting Battler? Or was he actually able to meet Battler before Eva caught up with him?

Was it Beatrice herself, after all? She survived the massacre and met Battler. She explained the situation to him and they escaped to the submarine base. Beatrice refused to go, but Battler escaped. First question: why was it shown that Beatrice was shot if she survived? Did she somehow survive even if Kyrie shot at her? Second, how much did Beatrice tell Battler and would Battler trust her? Third, why didn't Beatrice escape with Battler? In the magic ending, Battler 'kidnapped' her, but did this happen in reality?

I'm doubtful about the Eva theory and while I like the Rudolf idea thematically, I think the Beatrice explanation might answer everything. To save Beatrice, we need to assume Kyrie either did not actually shoot at her (Only Eva's assumption of what happened? Why wouldn't it happen?), the bullet did not hit (faulty Winchester) or she survived anyway with injuries that caused blood to trickle from her mouth (as the narration tells us). In that case I'm asking honestly: can we be sure if Ryukishi intended for the EP7 Tea Party to contain any falsehoods at all? Or is it all truth, as the red words imply?
I really like your way of theorizing!!! Exactly, its weird what Touya says! and I admit, though I still stick to my battler-in-a-locked-room-theory for now XD I had the thought that he could somehow survive that.

But let me answer what I think:
1."Is this plausible, or just Ange's mistaken interpretation?"
I dont think thats plausible at all. its just anges interpretation. touyas story is left vague on purpose.

2."Is Touya's memory too hazy to use the exact wordings of his testimony as clues?". could be, but this is a fantasy-scene anyways. you know, this touya sitting in front of ange has written a book - the book we all know about and in which ep 8 took place. now: we are still in reality. How is it possible for this ange, the real ange, to have seen the events of ep 8 "so the red of the witch applies" when it only happened in a book? thats like me writing a book and you have the memories of what happened in there. Dont you find that weird? And also - Ikuko should be 90 or something. She is described even by Ange as a young woman, so its not just the pictures in the VN. What do you think?

3." we cannot be 100% sure if [Sayo] died when she was shot by Kyrie"
Yes, like you said, she was shot with the broken winchester, that didnt work on jessica either. I think thats a plausible reason for sayo to survive

4. "If we assume that Eva is this person, there are a couple of questions.First, would Battler trust Eva's story over his dead parents?"
There sure are, and thats actually the only point I havent found any clues about at all...
now for your question, I think he would, as this is shown on the game-boards. He was sometimes suspicious of eva or other family memebers, but in the end, he always chose to trust them, even though his parents had died. But maybe there is a hint in ep 3 that I havent found yet...

5.Would Eva trust Battler?
I think she would, because she knows that Rudolf and Kyrie acted spontaneously. Battler doesnt even know about the "golden land" so my take on it is yes.

6."why didn't they stay together"?
This!!! That is what made me doubt Touyas story in the first place. I have no idea why he wouldnt go with Eva.


7. "What if it was Rudolf? I personally like the idea that Rudolf would try to save him from Kyrie"
Oh you dont know how much Id like this idea too! I really hoped rudolf would show a bit more that he feels like a father and I was honestly a bit sad when he actually considered shooting him. I was even rooting for Rudolf in ep 7 "Eva against Rudolf" just so that Battler would still have a chance to get out of the island through Rudolf. But I dont believe Rudolf survived sadly. He was shot by an intact winchester and battler was already late even before the whole eva vs. rudolf took place. and afterwards eva still went to george whose body wasnt too far away. If battler came in the time-span when Rudolf might still have been alive, I think he would have met eva.

8.Third, who was the other person in 'we', as Rudolf died before meeting Battler?
Could you say again where he used we? I just dont remember what scene you're referring too.

9. "Or was he actually able to meet Battler before Eva caught up with him?"
Well if we accept ep 7 to be the truth, then he didnt, because rudolf wondered why battler is late and expected it to be him just before eva arrived.

10. "why was it shown that Beatrice was shot if she survived?"
I think there is no reason but just to confuse the viewer. Edit: maybe there IS a reason, like I said down below.

11. Did she somehow survive even if Kyrie shot at her?
since kyries gun is broken, I think there is a big possibility she survived. Wasnt eva also shot by kyrie? I have to take a look at the scene again...

12.Second, how much did Beatrice tell Battler and would Battler trust her?
Lets think about the state Beato was in - she was really miserable. I find it hard to believe that she would so openly confess everything to him when in the games, she always wanted him to understand her by himself. And this scene from ep 5 "I knew a man who believed with all his heart and the suffering he went through when he was forced to abandon his belief" (beato) is stuck in my head. Since it refers to seemingly nothing I can only assume it refers to prime. So I guess he and Sayo still met somehow in Prime, but I dont think he would immediately say: "Ok, lets go then". That just doesnt sound like it. It sounds more like alcohol will help you now XD

13.Third, why didn't Beatrice escape with Battler? In the magic ending, Battler 'kidnapped' her, but did this happen in reality?
Hmm, I still think she died before being able to leave the island. "If you died without being satisfied, wouldnt that be pretty bad?" (more or less quoted ep 4, mammon). But if we assume that they made it out alive, I have no answer until now. I doubt Battler would leave someone behind though.

14. to let beato survive we have to assume: "the bullet did not hit (faulty Winchester) or she survived anyway with injuries that caused blood to trickle from her mouth (as the narration tells us)."
I agree, Beato survived. I think its a combi out of both what you said - the winchester probably hit but missed any life-threatening parts. actually, that might be it...!!!!You just gave me a good idea! What do you think?: She was injured after that, but still could move about. She made it for quite a long time (the second day) but ultimately she died of blood loss (I dont know, Im unsure as long as we dont have hints like a similar situation like this happening before). Then occurs the whole Battler-locked-room-phase, but it wasnt that she intended to leave him there. It was the blood-loss that resulted in battler not "solving the puzzle before beato died" in him "being too late". maybe carring something heavy might even have done the trick. So Beato in the end, wouldnt have killed anyone on purpose...
Well I guess that could be, but Im still doubtful as long as I cant find a hint that shows/talks about someone living a long time throughan injury. In any case, I think its a combi of both. We probably have to assume she is injured.

15. "In that case I'm asking honestly: can we be sure if Ryukishi intended for the EP7 Tea Party to contain any falsehoods at all? Or is it all truth, as the red words imply?"
This!!! That gave me such a hard time. I also asked myself that because I wanted to be able to doubt the Eva-survives-part. But heres why I decided we can be pretty sure everything is true: in ep 7, bern says there is no game-master. And without a game-master there cant be any falsehoods. here I dont believe bern is lying btw. And the manga in ep 8 is pretty much confirming everything Ange saw in ep 7 too. So if we start to doubt that, I dont think reasoning is possible anymore...

MY QUESTION:
And let me add a question too: the battler we know leaves two days later : ON A MOTORBOAT? On his OWN? he hates these things! I cant imagine him just leaving on one on his own, considering the way battler acted only two days ago. Thats what also made me doubt he ever left the island like touya said. To me it felt like "be careful!, here we give you a clue that it cant be true". What other purpose would Battlers "I hate vehicles" have? I read it as a clue.
Quote:
I also want to share my thoughts about Kyrie's characterization in the EP7 Tea Party. While the sprites in the VN don't show much craziness, it's a whole different deal in the manga. I had too much love for Sayo before, thinking she never intended any real murders, I was thinking I could so to say 'lower my standards' for Kyrie too. I believe Kyrie might have actually turned as cynical and uncaring as presented. I thought that Kyrie might have been some kind of psychopath from the start, which could make an interesting character in itself, but then I thought about her character in EP8. I believe what was shown about the characters on Battler's final game board was not made up and it was part of their true hearts, even if only a little bit. So Kyrie at least had the possibility of caring about Ange.

I believe everything goes back to the switching of Kyrie and Asumu's babies. Because of it Asumu was able to take Rudolf from him, essentially by using Battler as a chain to bind him. Her hell of jealousy twisted her personality, and by the time Ange was born, she was ingrained with the thought that children are just chains. This is why she says to Eva that she never really cared about Ange. When Rudolf finally tells Kyrie that Battler was her son all along, Kyrie realises what could have been and what she could have avoided becoming.
Yes! I agree! I also think Kyrie was not really as heartless as its presented in this scene. Even though I dont doubt she said all that. I dont remember but didnt she ask eva in the end to take care of Ange? Or was it just evas thoughts? she was pretty much acting tougher than she really was. she had something of a psychopath, she was lying to battler all along, playing to get along with him. And when she called him in ep 4 and says that he was his son, she obviously lied too. But I still dont think she was completely heartless.
I like this:"When Rudolf finally tells Kyrie that Battler was her son all along, Kyrie realises what could have been and what she could have avoided becoming." That actually sounds just as sad as it is. Yes, she certainly did back then and she will never have the chance to make it right ;_; So Id really like to have seen a bit more of that scene, more of her reaction. Maybe she and battler making up or something. Im so sad that the scene was only so short...
And no, the 8th game was no lie. I still think they are all souls and when battler says in ep 8 something like "this is no normal gameboard, on halloween the souls of the dead are really close to the world of the living" I really think he means it -that Ange meets her true family. It sure didnt happen as battler presented it, but I think he let the pieces do and say what they wanted to say so they could say goodbye.

Last edited by Inbuiltx9; 2015-03-19 at 21:03.
Inbuiltx9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-03-20, 03:04   Link #34971
Bluemail
Zero of the roulette
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Finland
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
Thank you! I was hoping for such a discussion about this locked room!
Hmm, thats of course possible, it fits with everything if he wanted to give beato the chance to solve the room. i cant think of anything that makes me disagree. but couldnt it also be that he just didnt know about the windows? I mean, at the end the window seals not being checked seems banal (thats also an argument in your favor) but every trick seems simple once you know how it works, doesnt it? and erika appearantly was convinced she would trick battler with that. though really, like I said - your theory is completely valid as far as I can see and I accept it as a possibilty.
The justification for sealing of blue truth using the windows is perhaps one of the things I have most problems wrapping my head around. In a way it created the situation where someone had to create another riddle to solve the closed room instead of directly solving it with blue, so Beato could just win with a new riddle instead of giving up her heart as a solution. But the sealing came from Dlanor, with the authority of Erika? Was Battler controlling the situation somehow after all? What the hell?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
that is another possibilty as well!!very interesting!!! Ill think about it! But then, in your opinion, what is he referring to when he says "The gameboard will probably vanish, but I now completely understand magic and I think I can take you out of here. I believe that is your wish." Doesnt it fit perfectly with the magic ending we saw? And doesnt it imply that by understanding magic you're able to take beato out? And all of that occurred on the third day on the island, while beatos game-baord only takes place on the first and second day. So Id say- with magic he let her get out. and that also means his magic reaches further than beatos game-board. also this: you could also say that since the game-board vanished and battler is creating a new world that doesnt have anything to do with the original two days where beato influences the events, there is no contradicition with battler being able to make his magic last this long.
I think Battler understanding magic and thus being able to take Beatrice out of the game board refers to how he could write a story to fulfill Beatrice's wishes and how he could always imagine Beatrice with him even if she was dead. Battler might have originally intended that he and Beato both actually survived the boat trip instead of falling from the boat. Then he could have indulged himself in imagining Beato by her side even more strongly. But how it actually turned out, I think, is that Battler realised that he had to lay Beatrice to rest if he ever wanted to have a real life as Touya, and for Ange's sake he should not stay playing around with witches forever. This is why Beatrice says she and Battler have different worlds to go back to. Battler fulfilled Beato's wish of being taken out of the Rokkenjima, but he couldn't take her with him any further. As Battler's memory drowned with Beatrice, he kept Beatrice company in the purgatory until Touya finally met Ange. This was Battler's final purpose, after which he left the human world and joined Beatrice in the land of the dead, and they could rest in peace.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
"I think Featherine is the only one we know who is capable of creating a complete world outside Rokkenjima."
But isnt battler more or less featherine?
But I really like your higurashi-reference very much too, because it wouldnt be the first time the same ideas in the two stories are used. So then how would you explain the "Ange-paradox" at the end (see further below) with this theory? im interested.
I believe it's more like Touya is a part of Featherine instead of meta Battler. Meta Battler is the part of Touya only concerned with Rokkenjima's catbox, but Touya is also part of a duo creating mystery novels and forgeries, where Ikuko is the direct piece of Featherine. I'll talk about the "Ange-paradox" when I'm at that part of the post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
No wait, I meant to say, that the world he creates is a world for Ange AND Beato. But, primarily for Beato because thats what he owes her after making her suffer so much.
Oh, I see. The overall lyrics fit with Beato more than Ange, but I see no reason why parts of it couldn't reference both. But in essence, it's a Beatrice and Battler song.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
I dont believe everything that is a reference to the real life has to be exactly as it occured. Like with the test in ep 4, the places in prime were completely different and the "question" was too...(none in prime). and I interpret the voices are him longing for his family. did you by chance read my long post about prime one/two pages ago? I tried to explain when it could have happened -after what we get to see in episode 7 would be my guess. then its still the night of the first day, something still happened on the second day. but by that time everyone was already dead ("something big happens while I was compeltely unaware").
Also please consider this: the memory-part this person X (ange?/battler?) experiences in the room and when X hears the voices occur while this person is also shown the red text that is exactly the same as battlers logic-error room, isnt it? and all the thoughts with the bath-room and the closet and the window and the witch biting of this persons ring-finger. I really think this refers to battlers experiences in ep 6. And X is battler after having lost his "heart" by the ring, because they said he wouldnt be able to think about how to leave the locked room anymore after that. Not remembering anything about the situation he is in fits. So while I do agree the voices could be seen as a counter-argument, I think of them metaphorically as only him thinking there is someone he wants to see again. or even like this: as someone mocking him-the voices makes him long to go there but he cant. It wouldnt be the first time-he was made fun of by letting him think he can get out of the door too...If what I think is right, that it IS battler there, there are no voices anyways, they would only his hallucination/someone mocking him, because on the game-board, everyone else is in the guest-house while he is in the mansion.
Oh but listen to this: it could also be that when battler died in the locked room, he already "heard" the voices of the people of afterlife and he wants to leave the room to be able to meet them. What do you think about that? But yes, I also like hagurumas idea very much. in a certain way, I even read it like that too.
Alright. I give in about the voices, though I prefer to think they were there at some point, so some childhood memory would be at least part of it. Thanks for bringing up the wedding ring, that actually fits with my theory. Battler feigned defeat to give Beato a chance to solve the logic error, but when he Erika's ring was forced on him he couldn't solve it himself anymore, turning the situation really dangerous. Maybe that's why piece Battler struggled in the room more than he had to. The memory scenes could have happened after Battler got the ring as well.

If Battler was locked into a room on Prime, and perhaps even died there, can you explain how does this room actually work? If it was just a chain-lock, Battler could leave any time he wanted. In the real world he would not be binded by any red truth. Beato also would need to seal it somehow from the outside. Maybe Beatrice would kill him if he left with the wrong solution, as the witch who lurked in the darkness outside the room? I believe you theorised that Battler was actually locked in the same cell as Kyrie's group was in EP4. This would explain why Battler could only leave by someone's else's approval, making the closed room challenge and being locked within a thing in Battler's mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
2."Is Touya's memory too hazy to use the exact wordings of his testimony as clues?". could be, but this is a fantasy-scene anyways. you know, this touya sitting in front of ange has written a book - the book we all know about and in which ep 8 took place. now: we are still in reality. How is it possible for this ange, the real ange, to have seen the events of ep 8 "so the red of the witch applies" when it only happened in a book? thats like me writing a book and you have the memories of what happened in there. Dont you find that weird? And also - Ikuko should be 90 or something. She is described even by Ange as a young woman, so its not just the pictures in the VN. What do you think?
Well I'm not of the opinion that the scene is a fantasy scene. Ignoring anything by saying "this is a fantasy scene anyway" isn't really constructive, but I don't think you meant it that way. Also, how do you know that Touya has actually written EP8? I have a theory that it might actually be just meta Battler's (and Bernkastel's) construct, though I think there's merit in thinking that Touya created at least some version of Twilight of the Golden Witch as well.

I wrote a post about my theory of the nature of the meta world on the last page, did you read it? I suppose Ange witnessing the events of EP8 is the "Ange-paradox" you mentioned before. My theory is that Ange really goes on a journey into the meta world when she is on the brink of suicide, and everything she experiences as Ange-Beatrice is real in a sense. EP8 is created by meta Battler and used to guide Ange on her spiritual journey, until she finally returns to the rooftop in her world and decides not to jump. It is paradoxical and magical, but I think belief in some sort of real magic existing in Ange's world is a healthy attitude in making sense of Umineko. It is a story after all, and it is mystery strictly when concerned with Beatrice's games and perhaps not so much outside the catbox.

Where did you get the idea that Ikuko is 90? I believe Touya and Ikuko are at most in their fifties when they meet with Yukari. But my theory is that Ikuko is actually Featherine, or at least her king piece, which is why she looks so youthful. Ikuko is either immortal or Featherine just likes to keep her looking young. Yeah, I gave in to the witch in this case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
8.Third, who was the other person in 'we', as Rudolf died before meeting Battler?
Could you say again where he used we? I just dont remember what scene you're referring too.
The 'we' is a reference to Touya's testimony. "However, the place we escaped to was a submarine base, not Kuwadorian." If Rudolf was dead before he met Battler, he couldn't have accompanied him to the submarine base.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
10. "why was it shown that Beatrice was shot if she survived?"
I think there is no reason but just to confuse the viewer. Edit: maybe there IS a reason, like I said down below.
I don't think anything is there just to confuse the reader. Like Beatrice's fantasy scenes, there needs to be a reason for everything. Either it's an observer's interpretation of an event or a legitimate trick played by the culprit on the detective in real world terms, not just a confusing line in a book.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
11. Did she somehow survive even if Kyrie shot at her?
since kyries gun is broken, I think there is a big possibility she survived. Wasnt eva also shot by kyrie? I have to take a look at the scene again...
Yes, Eva was shot by Kyrie too, so it's possible the same thing happened with Beatrice. Kyrie thought she shot where she aimed, but the fault in the gun caused the bullet to miss or hit a spot that was not immediately lethal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
12.Second, how much did Beatrice tell Battler and would Battler trust her?
Lets think about the state Beato was in - she was really miserable. I find it hard to believe that she would so openly confess everything to him when in the games, she always wanted him to understand her by himself. And this scene from ep 5 "I knew a man who believed with all his heart and the suffering he went through when he was forced to abandon his belief" (beato) is stuck in my head. Since it refers to seemingly nothing I can only assume it refers to prime. So I guess he and Sayo still met somehow in Prime, but I dont think he would immediately say: "Ok, lets go then". That just doesnt sound like it. It sounds more like alcohol will help you now XD
Actually, Beatrice had already lost the game by her own rules when the siblings solved the epitaph. I'm not sure if miserable is the right word for her state of mind, as she said that she would be satisfied with any outcome. She had abandoned herself to whatever fate this outcome would give her. Maybe she thought her duty would be to confess everything, or going by your theory, fate gave her another chance to question Battler. I think she abandoned her right to be the culprit if not ordered by someone else when she lost, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
13.Third, why didn't Beatrice escape with Battler? In the magic ending, Battler 'kidnapped' her, but did this happen in reality?
Hmm, I still think she died before being able to leave the island. "If you died without being satisfied, wouldnt that be pretty bad?" (more or less quoted ep 4, mammon). But if we assume that they made it out alive, I have no answer until now. I doubt Battler would leave someone behind though.
My thoughts exactly. Beatrice still had the regret of not being able to leave the island, and I don't think it's in Battler's nature to leave her behind. Maybe she took all the blame on herself, and convinced Battler she was the murderer? Or maybe she bled to death from the gunshot wound. That would make a dramatic scene at least, similar to her death in EP5. Perhaps her parting words were the same? "Goodbye... liar... thank you... and sorry." For what would she be thankful to Battler? For trying to save her despite everything?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
Well I guess that could be, but Im still doubtful as long as I cant find a hint that shows/talks about someone living a long time throughan injury. In any case, I think its a combi of both. We probably have to assume she is injured.
I think it could be taken as a parallel to what happened to Beatrice Castiglioni in the submarine base massacre. She was injured, and Kinzou had to take her to a doctor. But unlike Kinzou, Battler was too late. In this case we have to think about how much time would Beatrice plausibly have? Also, the submarine base is apparently out of the blast radius, which means if Beatrice and Battler arrived at the submarine base together, Beatrice's body might have survived the explosion. Did Battler perhaps take her body on the boat, and it capsizing caused both of them to fall into the sea?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
15. "In that case I'm asking honestly: can we be sure if Ryukishi intended for the EP7 Tea Party to contain any falsehoods at all? Or is it all truth, as the red words imply?"
This!!! That gave me such a hard time. I also asked myself that because I wanted to be able to doubt the Eva-survives-part. But heres why I decided we can be pretty sure everything is true: in ep 7, bern says there is no game-master. And without a game-master there cant be any falsehoods. here I dont believe bern is lying btw. And the manga in ep 8 is pretty much confirming everything Ange saw in ep 7 too. So if we start to doubt that, I dont think reasoning is possible anymore...
My earlier interpretation was that everything Eva sees in the Tea Party is objectively true, but everything else could be fantasy or Eva's interpretation. I'm not sure if a game without a game master means there cannot be falsehoods, as there is still the Reader who can affect the story with their thoughts. In this case I believed Eva to be the Reader. But is there a reader either if there is no game master, as the author and reader dynamic doesn't exist? Lately I've been thinking that every scene in the Tea Party is possibly truth unaltered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
MY QUESTION:
And let me add a question too: the battler we know leaves two days later : ON A MOTORBOAT? On his OWN? he hates these things! I cant imagine him just leaving on one on his own, considering the way battler acted only two days ago. Thats what also made me doubt he ever left the island like touya said. To me it felt like "be careful!, here we give you a clue that it cant be true". What other purpose would Battlers "I hate vehicles" have? I read it as a clue.
I had a theory that Battler's fear of vehicles was actually caused by Touya's trauma of his escape. Then again Asumu also had this quality. Perhaps it's meant to say that because Battler was so incompetent with vehicles, he didn't survive the boat trip unharmed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
Yes! I agree! I also think Kyrie was not really as heartless as its presented in this scene. Even though I dont doubt she said all that. I dont remember but didnt she ask eva in the end to take care of Ange? Or was it just evas thoughts? she was pretty much acting tougher than she really was. she had something of a psychopath, she was lying to battler all along, playing to get along with him. And when she called him in ep 4 and says that he was his son, she obviously lied too. But I still dont think she was completely heartless.
At first I thought that Kyrie was mostly faking it to stay strong, but now I think her game theory influenced thinking was so deeply ingrained at that point that she immediately shifted to the most efficient way of thinking. No use crying over spilled milk. She probably had sad feelings about Rudolf's death, deep down, but she was psychologically unable to realise or express that anymore. And she never told Eva to take care of Ange. "Kyrie worried about her daughter until the very end" was a white lie Eva wrote on the lid of the catbox. I think Kyrie is a very interesting parallel to Beatrice about the dangers of thinking about real life as a game and other people as pieces on a board.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
I like this:"When Rudolf finally tells Kyrie that Battler was her son all along, Kyrie realises what could have been and what she could have avoided becoming." That actually sounds just as sad as it is. Yes, she certainly did back then and she will never have the chance to make it right ;_; So Id really like to have seen a bit more of that scene, more of her reaction. Maybe she and battler making up or something. Im so sad that the scene was only so short...
I know, I made myself sad making this theory... I think Kyrie's reaction is depicted in an effectively heart-breaking manner in the EP8 manga. And we know how fond Ryukishi is of breaking the hearts of his readers.

Last edited by Bluemail; 2015-03-20 at 03:26.
Bluemail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-03-20, 06:45   Link #34972
Leslie Chow
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Quote:
As an actual comment, why couldn't Rosa write the message bottles earlier? Sayo began writing the message bottles soon after hearing that Battler is going to return, surely if he would return a year earlier, the same could happen. But there not being all the resolve for the crime yet at that point is a valid answer.
Well it could be at that time as well, as long as it is after the guy from Hokkaido dumped her. My theory-making isn't complete yet as I have only progressed very little in my re-read.

Quote:
But it can never replace Sayotrice as the driving force behind Umineko's mysteries.
Well, actually it could, since Rosatrice is on par with Sayotrice. Because of the loopholes in the story, especially in regards to the nature of EP7, Rosatrice was able to exist. Unless if Ryukishi says in red that "Rosa and George never killed anyone".

Quote:
I wrote a couple of blog posts countering KnownNoMore's Rosatrice videos some time ago, if you'd like to take a look:
http://heartofthegoldenwitch.tumblr....satrice-part-i
http://heartofthegoldenwitch.tumblr....atrice-part-ii
These were really an interesting read. You actually quoted KNM's objections and for the most part your arguments were fairly constructive and for that I applaud you.

I also saw at the end of your post in Tumblr that you were planning on going through hints that supposedly imply Rosa is Beatrice, so I'm looking forward for that one. If you'd like we could do a critical analysis of both theories sometime in the future, but not anytime soon.

Quote:
George doesn't need to be the one to switch the labels on the keys, as long as Kumasawa and Gohda are in on it. They still think it's all a game, having lied about demons and witches to the cousins before. Also, none of the keys in the servant's room actually have labels, as seen in EP1. Gohda and Kumasawa would immediately realise there is something fishy about the key, but the cousins should not. I'm a bit proud about figuring out the solution to this closed room a long time ago, hehe.
This could be solved easily with both theories in mind actually. As long as Gohda and Kumasawa are unaware that the culprit would really kill them, it could easily work. But we should also not rule out the possibility that George may have been responsible for the switching of labels. There is no evidence that disproves this possibility.

Quote:
I think this is up to interpretation, and could refer to just 556 and Sakutarou. Couldn't there also have been more toys Rosa broke?
But if you listened to the voice from the PS3 version, Maria definitely said "minna" which means "everyone". I don't really think that the statement is up to interpretation though, as 2 toys being broken doesn't amount to "everyone". And Sakutaro was alive when she said that, so couldn't Maria have just said "I'll kill you, just like how Mama killed Chiester 556!"? Like wouldn't she just say like "my friends" or something along those lines, if more than one was involved? I don't remember in the slightest any evidence that there could be more toys that Rosa broke. It's possible, but we don't really know. We only know that Maria's friends were the illustrations of characters in her grimoire, the Chiester Sisters and Sakutaro. We know that Rosa couldn't have killed the illustration characters, since they were ripped up in 1998. And Rosa only broke 2 toys, so that shouldn't amount to "everyone". But yeah, "everyone" is definitely suspicious.

Quote:
In the world where Battler and Eva survived, no one did come home to her. That means Rudolf, Kyrie or Battler. Gretel is the Ange from 1998 who thought that only Eva survived, and had yet to meet Touya. And even then Battler would never actually come home, but that isn't important.
In the world where Eva survives, Eva does come to Ange, however Gretel-Ange did specify that her entire family didn't come back. But of course, if Gretel-Ange doesn't consider Eva as part of her family I guess it could work? I don't know I get the feeling that if she said that line about her whole family it should be golden truth, since that would mean that she doesn't consider Eva as part of her family. But because we get the red "entire family" well it should mean that it should include Eva, since it is a fact that Eva is part of her family whether she likes it or not. But putting into account The Witches' Tanabata extra arc, Eva does come back unless it isn't Gretel-Ange? Putting aside all this Sayotrice and Rosatrice stuff, in my opinion the future world is the real confusing bit of Umineko with some links to the meta-world to an extent.

Quote:
I think that Beatrice just borrowed Bernkastel's idea, to highlight the question of if Beatrice can be trusted. Even if you trust everything she says, the sleight of hand is all logical. But if she lies as the culprit, she can also make it an impossible magic trick. I'm not actually sure about all of this riddle's implications, so I'd like to hear your interpretations.
Hmm... it's possible, but part of that narration is actually what Ange saw or her thoughts, so this bit is really debatable, unless thoughts from other meta-characters can be seen in the narration by other meta-characters, which I doubt Beatrice could, since she, Ange and the other meta-characters aside from Bernkastel, Lambdadelta and Featherine are more or less on the same level of existence. But this begs the question. If Bernkastel wanted a bad ending, then why allow a possible future for Ange to have a better life if she chose magic? I have a theory in mind actually which links to the future world, but it's best to let the manga finish first before tackling this part of Umineko, since it could be debunked and later revealed in the manga eventually.

Quote:
I have indeed read Hou. While I'd like a clarification from Ryukishi how canon Outbreak and Kamikanshi-hen actually are, they have elements that fit. I think Hanyuu, Tamurahime no Mikoto and Une are metaphysical beings similar to those in Umineko that are born of the idea of the different tribes of brain parasites. The parasites are their vessels, the anti-fantasy version of them. The brain parasites cannot travel between fragments, but at least Hanyuu has powers similar to voyager witches in that she can observe different fragments. I don't remember if Tamura and Une did that. Them being aliens probably refers to the brain parasites originating from outer space, but could also refer to an ability to traverse the sea of fragments searching for a fitting one to live in.
This is a bit off topic from Umineko, but at the end of Kamikanshi hen, there was the part when Rika said that she used "Google". Now we all know that in 1983, there wasn't any internet, especially from an area like Hinamizawa. It's a bit fishy, since that could mean that Outbreak and Kamikanshi hen are probably just fanservice (we see Une and Tamura in weird clothing and Hanyuu in a Sakutaro outfit).

By the way, have you also read Kotogohushi hen? I have only read the summary, but at the end of it, the arc was actually one of many versions of the legend, which seems very similar to Umineko, as if to conceal the truth about Oyashiro. Not only that but the Hanyuu described in Kamikanshi hen seemed quite immature for stealing a cup of rice in the past, compared to the Hanyuu presented in Kotogohushi hen. But that would mean that a Voyager like Hanyuu should be able to interact in the real world directly (she did get a kid). So here's a question, do you think that Voyagers can also interact in the real world to the same extent as a Creator, as in like an actual person, rather than a cat (for all we know it is just a cat and it being Bernkastel might be in someone's imagination) or "ghost" (since none of Okonogi's men (most likely former Yamainu due to their designated numbers) saw Bern). Or as said at the end of Kotogohushi hen, it is just one of many stories and that Hanyuu may not have even existed and was only a parasite as stated in Kamikanshi hen, meaning that Kotogohushi hen is a magical interpretation like how some parts of Umineko are fictional?

Random Question:
Am I the only one that ships Battler x Ikuko? For some reason, I just can't see Beatrice x Battler happening regardless if Beatrice is Rosa or Yasu. It would be interesting to see in the manga if they get married, had some kids, show up in front of Ange and she learns about it. Ange's reaction would be priceless if this would ever happen (I hope it does).
Leslie Chow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-03-20, 07:52   Link #34973
Inbuiltx9
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
The justification for sealing of blue truth using the windows is perhaps one of the things I have most problems wrapping my head around. In a way it created the situation where someone had to create another riddle to solve the closed room instead of directly solving it with blue, so Beato could just win with a new riddle instead of giving up her heart as a solution. But the sealing came from Dlanor, with the authority of Erika? Was Battler controlling the situation somehow after all? What the hell?
Yes, I know what you mean that it came out of nowhere... But in ep 5 dlanor sealing the red truth came out of nowhere as well. but wasnt it orgininally bern that let dlanor seal the window with blue "I had her seal it for now but...". and bern knows how the trick can work even with the blue sealing the the window. Erika doesnt though, she only learns of it in the sea of oblivion. erika would then only be copying what her master tells her to do.
Ep 5 is far more random the way I see it...I somehow accept that dlanor can randomly forbit a truth to be used if it doesnt create a logic error. its like that: there was never a real logic error to begin with, they just made battler think the windows were sealed as well. so if they use the red truth to seal all the windows, that would make them cause the logic error. They can only use red on one and seal the blue for the other one.
But I dont think they completely sealed it after all, they just said they would take a look at it, but it might take some time...and two or more applications at a time wouldnt be allowed.they arent obliged to accept any blue truth anyways since their opponent is battler and not gaap or beato...
And also - I think she DID expose her heart in the end of ep 6. Like featherine said: "its possible, but this trick cant be used a second time", "this will expose beatos heart". I think that this "exposing" and "cant be used a second time" is not really completely true, but more like ryukishi saying: "come on, you have to get it at least NOW, I cant make it any more obvious who the culprit is...". So even though its hidden enough, the trick "somehow" still exposes beatos heart since there can be only one solution. and this trick leads to erika finding out about sayo in the end (together with the red truth at the end). But Imo, this was battlers set up from the very beginning - using some kanon/shannon trick by having them vanish as a result from the lovers duel. I dont think the logic error was intended this way though, as the goals battler says he has for this game are completely different from what happens in the end (apart from showing he understood her heart)...


Quote:
I think Battler understanding magic and thus being able to take Beatrice out of the game board refers to how he could write a story to fulfill Beatrice's wishes and how he could always imagine Beatrice with him even if she was dead. Battler might have originally intended that he and Beato both actually survived the boat trip instead of falling from the boat. Then he could have indulged himself in imagining Beato by her side even more strongly. But how it actually turned out, I think, is that Battler realised that he had to lay Beatrice to rest if he ever wanted to have a real life as Touya, and for Ange's sake he should not stay playing around with witches forever. This is why Beatrice says she and Battler have different worlds to go back to. Battler fulfilled Beato's wish of being taken out of the Rokkenjima, but he couldn't take her with him any further. As Battler's memory drowned with Beatrice, he kept Beatrice company in the purgatory until Touya finally met Ange. This was Battler's final purpose, after which he left the human world and joined Beatrice in the land of the dead, and they could rest in peace.
I almost completely agree with everything you said! so you think the different worlds refer to the world of witches and the world of "normal people"? But dont you think it would be weird for her to go to "purgatory" now? I think purgatory is over, since she got rid of all her regrets and her hatred. actually this sentence is making me think now - because I almost read it as "world of the dead" vs "world of the living". But your interpretation was "world of witches" vs. "world of humans" right? Or maybe both? But I always think that battler said "we are all already dead" including himself. Why would he say that? and how would he "know" (or better: come to the belief) that he was dead if he wasnt? Battler knows what happened in prime. So i'm more inclined to think its "magic" vs. "human world" or maybe beato stays behind if its really a world battler created?

Quote:
I believe it's more like Touya is a part of Featherine instead of meta Battler. Meta Battler is the part of Touya only concerned with Rokkenjima's catbox, but Touya is also part of a duo creating mystery novels and forgeries, where Ikuko is the direct piece of Featherine. I'll talk about the "Ange-paradox" when I'm at that part of the post.
Ok, that is an interesting theory there, Ikuko being a piece of Featherine. because thats somehow how I see it too. the way it was presented was featherine being a piece of ikuko - meaning ikuko created featherine in a book. but I also thought it is probably not that easy because there was something off with ikuko.

Quote:
Oh, I see. The overall lyrics fit with Beato more than Ange, but I see no reason why parts of it couldn't reference both. But in essence, it's a Beatrice and Battler song.
Yep, thats how I meant it - its a song for beato and battler. the world being a world for ange was just a bonus but you made me think here...maybe I still have to revise my theory a bit...

Quote:
Alright. I give in about the voices, though I prefer to think they were there at some point, so some childhood memory would be at least part of it. Thanks for bringing up the wedding ring, that actually fits with my theory. Battler feigned defeat to give Beato a chance to solve the logic error, but when he Erika's ring was forced on him he couldn't solve it himself anymore, turning the situation really dangerous. Maybe that's why piece Battler struggled in the room more than he had to. The memory scenes could have happened after Battler got the ring as well.
Exactly!!! Thats why in the beginning, I was fine with the theory that battler "somehow" caused the logic error. That he spontaneously changed his mind and wanted beato to solve the locked room but through erika and bern, like you said, "the situation [became] really dangerous". Im fine with this somehow because it also fits well with Berns and Erikas character. I still doubt that he had any plans with the locked room, because I dont see how it logically (him struggling in the room for example, the goal of a game being a completely different one) and above all - thematically - fits well with the story. To say he waited for beato to solve it after it already happened like you said in your last post - that is possible though.

"Maybe that's why piece Battler struggled in the room more than he had to."

Hmm, it was said that in the vn the moment battlers heart died (=the moment he got the ring) he left the locked room on purpose because no matter what, he just didnt want to "die" in the locked room. Correct me if Im wrong please, but doesnt this mean that all his struggles in the room happened before he got the ring? When meta-battlers soul is in the room ("possessing" his piece or whatever) he still struggled to get out, which is one of the reasons I think he actually didnt wait for Beato to solve everything for him and just wanted to accept the new beato as her daughter (even if he still hoped for her to remember). After he "died" he was not able to do anything any more and only lay on the floor until kanon arrived. so that means he wouldnt be able to destroy the room any further after getting the ring the scenes in the "creepy room" are occuring on an even deeper level where he "dreams" (or something similar) of everything that happened before without knowing how he actually got there. And in this room the chain cant even be unset - different from what was still possible in the room where battler went to immediately after having caused the logic error - even though he still cant leave, in this room the chain can at least be unset. Later though on the "deeper" level, this chain-lock is replaced by a true chain that doesnt even allow for one to open the door at all, and so are the windows. That fits with erikas "we're going to lock your heart in your locked room" "you wont be able to get out". This comment of Erika would be completely useless, because he is already locked in the locked room he created. What more do you want?XD It fits though if we think how the windows and the chain-lock change.


Quote:
If Battler was locked into a room on Prime, and perhaps even died there, can you explain how does this room actually work? If it was just a chain-lock, Battler could leave any time he wanted. In the real world he would not be binded by any red truth. Beato also would need to seal it somehow from the outside. Maybe Beatrice would kill him if he left with the wrong solution, as the witch who lurked in the darkness outside the room? I believe you theorised that Battler was actually locked in the same cell as Kyrie's group was in EP4. This would explain why Battler could only leave by someone's else's approval, making the closed room challenge and being locked within a thing in Battler's mind.
Yes, I sure did. Ill show you how I thought (please!! tell me your opinion because noone has ever come up with another solution that can explain all the hints):

1.every hint in umineko has a purpose (I already saw later in this post that you agree with me here, so I dont think I have to explain again why I think so ) -> battlers memories in the locked room seemingly have no purpose and refer to nothing -> battlers memories must refer to prime -> battler says he remembers a horrible family gathering when he was very young -> its stated battler was never betrayed before coming to rokkenjima, asumu gave him all the love she could and never was there any mention of a horrible familiy gathering (but every hint must have a reference and a meaning so this family gathering must refer to something relevant and something we know of) + battler spent years in this closed room -> battler refers to the only horrible family-gathering we know of and that is prime when he was "still only" 18 years old

and further:
2.battler remembered dozing off after the family gathering + battler is always seen drinking alcohol after he knew that everyone had died (again: and all the hints have a meaning) [Edit:] + (see also big hint down below) [End of Edit]-> battler was probably getting drunk
3.battler remembers being put to sleep in a room he didnt know - > someone must have "put him to sleep" in prime -> there arent many suspects as we reasoned before -> its probably sayo
4.the "room he didnt know"-> what room do we know he definitely doesnt know? - > we only know of one such room, because for all the rooms in the guest-house and the mansion, its at least possible he knew them (for example by playing hide-and-seek in the mansion - they did this when they were children)+ since I do think the part with the "he didnt know" would be unnecessary if it was such a room in the mansion or the guest-house + no hints are unnecessary -> there is only one room left
5. he says him and chain-locks dont go well together, "you can do something about all the other ones, but you cant do anything about chain-locks" -> but in fact you can just undo every chain lock in the rooms of the mansion or the guest-house from the inside -> it cant refer to a normal chain lock-> it must refer to a chain-lock that is applied from the outside-> room under kuwadorian fits since its basically a prison -with devices to keep people confined in there too btw - so Im not sure if a "chain lock" might even refer to one of those - that would be hinted at after all by all the nice experiences battler already has with chains, for example the collar in episode 2 (ending)+ 6(in the locked room), but here Im unsure
6.it was shown in ep 4 that iron bars are blocking the way + kyries comment to that: "they sure didnt want us to leave" + no hint is unnecessary -> its impossible to reach that room easily or to get out, thats what the iron bars are representing
7. And after all: no hint is unnecessary + kyries group was probably never in this cell -> what is the room that is explicitly said to be directly under the kuwadorian referring to? It seemingly doesnt refer to anything -> it must refer to prime (now dont get me wrong, Im not saying every random room must be important, but this one is waaaay too striking with how its described in detaill, what the pieces are saying about the room, how there are so many hints at future events depicted in the room in the manga, how its shown later in the story too) So there are...
8.....many other hints that tell us something is up with this room, but ill leave it at that for now. Just this one: I still want to mention it because different from the other hints I never wrote it here in the forum:
9. there are no unnecessary hints + battler tries everything to get out of the room in ep 6, he even considered berns cutting-yourself-to-pieces-method + "me and chain locks dont go welll together, you cant do anything about chain locks" ->in prime he used all the methods available to get out, but there isnt anything that works. only cutting yourself to pieces would work. well that somehow would make me believe that maybe the chain-lock IS referring to one of the confining devices and not just to a lock that is keeping the door of the room shut, but Im still careful here.
((9.)) also...-but here I dont mean to say anything with it since Im completely unsure about this... because other than point 1-9, I cant "reason" about it- but theres this page and a picture in ep 6 manga (shortly before hes locked in the room) that might (subjunctive!!) hint at what I mean...

thats it. after reading your post I thought for a while: but what if battler doesnt mean he has a problem with chain-locks because he himself was locked up but that he has a problem with them because sayo locked herself up somewhere and he didnt want to leave her alone? then he would survive and sayo would die and then a normal room in the mansion is sufficient of course, cause you cant unlock chain-locks from the outside. But then I threw that idea away because when you're on the outside, you can just get a tool to open every chain lock if you want to, like kanon did in ep 1. "you cant do anything about them" wouldnt fit. you can only have a problem if you're inside a room. well, those are my thoughts. and since noone could show me what this hinted at while taking into the account all the hints, Im sticking to my locked-room-theory until someone can do just that.

Quote:
Well I'm not of the opinion that the scene is a fantasy scene. Ignoring anything by saying "this is a fantasy scene anyway" isn't really constructive, but I don't think you meant it that way. Also, how do you know that Touya has actually written EP8? I have a theory that it might actually be just meta Battler's (and Bernkastel's) construct, though I think there's merit in thinking that Touya created at least some version of Twilight of the Golden Witch as well.
No no! I didnt mean it that way. I do believe in fantasy after all And I think the fantasy scenes are just as important as , if not even more important than the real scenes. What I meant was:" it must be fantasy somehow at least, because it just cant happen the way it happened" (but I did read your other post now so this could really be explained in a different way). last part Im quoting though, if it was written by Touya - I was thinking like that because featherine was participating in this story. and they were saying something like "featherine was looking differently before and the "tiara" is protecting her because she lost her memories once". So thats why I thought touya was involved in ep 8....Im interested in this: "there's merit in thinking that Touya created at least some version of Twilight of the Golden Witch". How would that version look like?

Quote:
I wrote a post about my theory of the nature of the meta world on the last page, did you read it? I suppose Ange witnessing the events of EP8 is the "Ange-paradox" you mentioned before. My theory is that Ange really goes on a journey into the meta world when she is on the brink of suicide, and everything she experiences as Ange-Beatrice is real in a sense. EP8 is created by meta Battler and used to guide Ange on her spiritual journey, until she finally returns to the rooftop in her world and decides not to jump. It is paradoxical and magical, but I think belief in some sort of real magic existing in Ange's world is a healthy attitude in making sense of Umineko. It is a story after all, and it is mystery strictly when concerned with Beatrice's games and perhaps not so much outside the catbox.
No I didnt read that post! I really thought I had seen all the recent posts by now, but I completely missed yours (and some other posts too)...Im sorry! But thank you that you mentioned it once again! Cause that sure was a VERY interesting read! with all those references to higurashi...I wouldnt be surprised if you're actually on to something with that. But I want to discuss this in a seperate post. cause that is really having some heavy implications there.
And with the rest what you say here: Im absolutely agreeing in everything! those were my very first thoughts: going on a spiritual journey. I still consider it one of the most logical explanations, and Im not 100% sure of the "Ange is dead" theory. But thats what I thought about as well, the meta being something that can be "entered" shortly before or after ones death. And I also agree that the mystery is concerning beatos games, as they are the core of the story and leads us to the "who why and how". she is imitating mystery-novels after all.

Quote:
Where did you get the idea that Ikuko is 90? I believe Touya and Ikuko are at most in their fifties when they meet with Yukari. But my theory is that Ikuko is actually Featherine, or at least her king piece, which is why she looks so youthful. Ikuko is either immortal or Featherine just likes to keep her looking young. Yeah, I gave in to the witch in this case.
Hehe, I admit I was exaggerating a little, what I meant to say was "she has to be pretty old". well, if I accept it like its presented, then touya was 18 when he met ikuko. and by that time, ikuko was already ~30 or above (just passed the marriageable age, but here my japanese culture knowledge is lacking and I cant narrow down her age at that time any more). So if ange is ~50, touya is around ~60 and ikuko would be around ~70. and she still looks faaaar younger than touya. I think Ange is around 50 because she was diagnosed with cancer (?) if I remember right? And she published so many books already...also because she says: "we've both gotten old, havent we?"its certainly possible that ikuko is featherines piece though! That would explain it! But for this we have to discuss what you wrote in your other post so Im leaving it at that here. I also think so though-no matter if later we can agree on one theory or not - I also gave in to the witch in this scene in a way

Quote:
The 'we' is a reference to Touya's testimony. "However, the place we escaped to was a submarine base, not Kuwadorian." If Rudolf was dead before he met Battler, he couldn't have accompanied him to the submarine base.
Thanks. I thought you meant a "we" Rudolf used. Yes, I have a hard time to think "we" was B+Eva and I also have a hard time to imagine it being b+sayo -for the reasons we discussed already. but touyas story fits with what happened in the magic ending, and that never happened as we know. thats also one of the reason that I find touyas story about leaving the island really strange...

Quote:
I don't think anything is there just to confuse the reader. Like Beatrice's fantasy scenes, there needs to be a reason for everything. Either it's an observer's interpretation of an event or a legitimate trick played by the culprit on the detective in real world terms, not just a confusing line in a book.
And you're absolutely right with that - please ignore what I said before, I actually really believe now that the hint is important! Thanks that you mentioned it. You remember how I said: Sayo probably didnt die, but the blood tells us she was probably injured? And how I said Im searching for a hint that she still lives after that but ultimately dies of blood-loss?You gave me a hint (I answer that later) but I found one on my own!! How did Beato die in ep 5? I mean in what state was her body in when Battler finally learned the truth? She was dried up, and only a husk. Towards which battler takes the last part thats left of her and drenches (for the lack of a better word) the butterfly in his own blood. If we think no hint is in vain - dont you think that fits?

Quote:
Actually, Beatrice had already lost the game by her own rules when the siblings solved the epitaph. I'm not sure if miserable is the right word for her state of mind, as she said that she would be satisfied with any outcome. She had abandoned herself to whatever fate this outcome would give her. Maybe she thought her duty would be to confess everything, or going by your theory, fate gave her another chance to question Battler. I think she abandoned her right to be the culprit if not ordered by someone else when she lost, though.
Yes, thats what I was thinking about as well. that she had already lost. and thats a valid argument and Im having a hard time to argue against it...but there was still something that happened on the second day, and there are so many hints left open that tell us that she could not just have confessed. First of all, the way beato is at the beginning of the story when prime already happened. I cant believe she would be so full of hatred and regret in the meta-purgatory if she confessed everything already. and in manga ep 8 she also showed that she died without being even slightly satisfied. Since I do believe a large chunk of the story is about redemption in pugatory after you died, and beato only confesses at the end of ep 8, I somehow cant help but think the meta-world would lose a large part of its meaning. And the "I knew a man who was believing..."(ep 5) and the hints to the locked room dont make any sense. Also: if beato just confessed, battler never ever had the chance in prime to solve beatos "puzzle", so the hint "battler was too late, he didnt make it in time" that is repeated often doesnt make any sense. In prime, he was too late in understanding beato so she couldnt have just confessed everything. She still, for some reason, wanted him to reason it out by himself.
but you REALLY made me think here: if beato really still wanted for battler to accept her as the criminal and poses her question, she might not have done it out of being "miserable" like I said. the motive might have actually been this: ep 5 beato when natsuhi was framed to be the culprit: "Why wont you just believe in me? Just make me the culprit! I knew a man who believed with all of his heart and the suffering he went through when he was forced to abandon this belief. I will never let a human be the culprit". She might have actually acted the part of the bad guy to help battler there, because obviously, he would find it hard to accept that his family members killed everyone (the worst red truth for him). And hint here - her acting skills are also referred to very often. Maybe she really wanted to make herself be seen as the culprit not not just because out of self-interest but because she doenst want to let him think that "a human is the culprit". imo, her acting might have gone a bit too far though (do we have a hint for that? Edit: I guess we have plenty), so she might have caused something she didnt intend to do.
After that: battler didnt make it, he didnt understand her (and it would be hard to see anyone else as the culprit in the first place because technically, rudolf and kyrie are the murderers). he couldnt think of anything else even though she urged him to like in ep 3 "please, dont stop thinking. there must be something else you can think of". but he couldnt (this scene just screams prime the way its presented btw).

Also please consider this: she urged him to think of something else in ep 3 like I mentioned above, to what battler says: "I cant. My head hurts". And you remember how I said he was probably getting drunk before on alcohol before he was "put to sleep in a room he didnt know"? "my head hurts" actually makes sense that way - if he has a hangover! so we can imagine the situation those two were in quite clearly! It fits so well!

so, in the end beato died without peace and while still thinking that ultimately it was her that caused everything. and maybe she died unexpectedly of blood-loss and didnt end her "acting like the bad guy" in time. For which she apologizes in ep 5 at the end (the last thing she says before dying).

but dont get me wrong: I still wont say that beato is a saint, I still think we have to keep in mind that everything she does in the beginning is a mixture of love and hate.
Thats my take on it until now. What do you think?

Quote:
My thoughts exactly. Beatrice still had the regret of not being able to leave the island, and I don't think it's in Battler's nature to leave her behind. Maybe she took all the blame on herself, and convinced Battler she was the murderer? Or maybe she bled to death from the gunshot wound. That would make a dramatic scene at least, similar to her death in EP5. Perhaps her parting words were the same? "Goodbye... liar... thank you... and sorry." For what would she be thankful to Battler? For trying to save her despite everything?
Yes! A good idea! Thats entirely possible. Or at least she said something similar. Even though I think she said that in a situation as in ep 5, where he wasnt able to hear her final words of apology! That makes sense! Well, I know what she would be sorry for but for the "thank you" part its hard to think about something that could refer to prime. also, we'd have to have hints that battler did something that benefittet her. in the game, I just thought she was thankful to him for fighting for her and trying to understand her until his death. but in prime - I think he gave up in the end (ep 3 hints like for example "she died because I was useless"). I have to think about that...

Quote:
I think it could be taken as a parallel to what happened to Beatrice Castiglioni in the submarine base massacre. She was injured, and Kinzou had to take her to a doctor. But unlike Kinzou, Battler was too late. In this case we have to think about how much time would Beatrice plausibly have? Also, the submarine base is apparently out of the blast radius, which means if Beatrice and Battler arrived at the submarine base together, Beatrice's body might have survived the explosion. Did Battler perhaps take her body on the boat, and it capsizing caused both of them to fall into the sea?
Great! Thanks for that! But she would have had to survive several hours after being shot. Do you think that was implied in this scene as well? But that is actually the second hint I was looking for! I have to take a look at the scene now to see if there's more we can get out from it.

Quote:
My earlier interpretation was that everything Eva sees in the Tea Party is objectively true, but everything else could be fantasy or Eva's interpretation. I'm not sure if a game without a game master means there cannot be falsehoods, as there is still the Reader who can affect the story with their thoughts. In this case I believed Eva to be the Reader. But is there a reader either if there is no game master, as the author and reader dynamic doesn't exist? Lately I've been thinking that every scene in the Tea Party is possibly truth unaltered.
Hmm, that was what was implied- bern says "its all the truth, didnt I tell you - this "game" has no game-master." since the game-master is the author that can create a falsehood by just writing anouther text, I thought no game-master -> no falsehood. bit you're right of course that people are always allowed to state their opinion of the story...maybe we see it from evas perspective. the thing is, we see this before evas diary is becoming important. so its never implied we see it from evas perspective. but I wont say it cant be. its perfectly possible that this was altered by what eva sees, but what would that imply?

Quote:
I had a theory that Battler's fear of vehicles was actually caused by Touya's trauma of his escape. Then again Asumu also had this quality. Perhaps it's meant to say that because Battler was so incompetent with vehicles, he didn't survive the boat trip unharmed?
Yes, I know that you can see it like " -> " or like " <- " meaning: he is scared at the beginning -> why boat??? (me) or: he is scared in the beginning <- because he took the boat (you). we're switching cause and effect so to speak.
and whats right and whats wrong is hard to answer I think. but the reason you mentioned - that it was connected to asumu and the fact they say he's always been like that (even before coming to rokkenjima in 1986), and that his fear is repeated sooo often - even in the first and second game, that (following the standard theory, not yours) is not written by touya, I really am inclined to think its ->
I think like this: why do they mention asumus habbit and battler copying it? + no hint is unnecessary -> battler has a fear since he was a child (not just on the game-boards) -> battler hates motorboats or anything like that very much (its not just a gag) even before coming to rokkenjima-> he would never leave on one on his own. well if beato was bleading to death it would surely be another story, but for reasons I mentioned above I doubt that beato ever left the island alive, not even the few meters they would have made on the boat

Quote:
At first I thought that Kyrie was mostly faking it to stay strong, but now I think her game theory influenced thinking was so deeply ingrained at that point that she immediately shifted to the most efficient way of thinking. No use crying over spilled milk. She probably had sad feelings about Rudolf's death, deep down, but she was psychologically unable to realise or express that anymore. And she never told Eva to take care of Ange. "Kyrie worried about her daughter until the very end" was a white lie Eva wrote on the lid of the catbox. I think Kyrie is a very interesting parallel to Beatrice about the dangers of thinking about real life as a game and other people as pieces on a board.
I know, I made myself sad making this theory... I think Kyrie's reaction is depicted in an effectively heart-breaking manner in the EP8 manga. And we know how fond Ryukishi is of breaking the hearts of his readers.
Oh I completely neglected her game-theory-thinking. Yes, that is of course affecting her. This even excludes all the "noise" that disturb this kind of thinking. Meaning emotions dont play a role anymore.that way, kyrie somehow characterized like this from the very beginning...

"I think Kyrie is a very interesting parallel to Beatrice about the dangers of thinking about real life as a game and other people as pieces on a board."
But she is at the end, quite different from beato, cause beato is using basically every kind of "noise" that kyrie excludes from her chessboard-thinking. someone making the wrong decisions on a whim, someone not fighting to win, emotions...these are all things she doesnt think about and thats why battler has such a problem in ep 1. kyrie is more like the "orthogonal" to beato maybe thats why beato loses the game in prime?

"Kyrie worried about her daughter until the very end" was a white lie Eva wrote on the lid of the catbox."
Thanks for clarifying this point. But doesnt it basically say that Eva did not influence the way the events in ep 7 tea party were presented?

Now, we still have to talk about your other theory, but Ill do that another time, because Im actually a busy But I think you already helped me realize some very interesting new stuff already. Maybe we can even combine your theory and all the facts about higurashi together with my theory

Last edited by Inbuiltx9; 2015-03-20 at 11:56.
Inbuiltx9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-03-20, 10:24   Link #34974
Megumi Kitagawa
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
Hmm... it's possible, but part of that narration is actually what Ange saw or her thoughts, so this bit is really debatable, unless thoughts from other meta-characters can be seen in the narration by other meta-characters, which I doubt Beatrice could, since she, Ange and the other meta-characters aside from Bernkastel, Lambdadelta and Featherine are more or less on the same level of existence. But this begs the question. If Bernkastel wanted a bad ending, then why allow a possible future for Ange to have a better life if she chose magic? I have a theory in mind actually which links to the future world, but it's best to let the manga finish first before tackling this part of Umineko, since it could be debunked and later revealed in the manga eventually.
I would actually be interested in reading your theory just to simply hear it. Even if it turns out to be wrong, it sounds like it would be interesting.
Megumi Kitagawa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-03-20, 12:56   Link #34975
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Inbuiltx9
MY QUESTION:
And let me add a question too: the battler we know leaves two days later : ON A MOTORBOAT? On his OWN? he hates these things! I cant imagine him just leaving on one on his own, considering the way battler acted only two days ago. Thats what also made me doubt he ever left the island like touya said. To me it felt like "be careful!, here we give you a clue that it cant be true". What other purpose would Battlers "I hate vehicles" have? I read it as a clue.
You know, an interesting thing about Battler is that he's technically the character we know least about in the Ushiromiya family.

Like, the Battler we get to know over the course of so many episodes is basically a fictional character that attains meta-awareness, but who wrote that character? Sayo.

When did she write him? Technically, probably before she met him again in 1986, because seriously there is no way she had the time AFTER the incident and the consistent death of Eva implies she didn't foresee the actual conclusion of events when she was writing.

If Sayo wrote Beatrice before meeting him in 1986, then the Battler she wrote is basically the 12 year old Battler he knows put in an 18 year old body. Which...explains a lot about Battler's personality, doesn't it? She even made him the Detective and POV character so that he was the one character beyond suspicion. The guaranteed innocent, who even comes dressing in white like a hero deserving a matching horse.

The Battler we know in Umineko is an idealized representation of him. He was definitely afraid of motorboats and plans when he was 12, but did he retain that fear when he was 18? Was he as heroic and naive and sweet and bullheaded as Sayo imagined him to be? Was he actually the true innocent or was he the murderous Black Battler?

Not even Battler himself knows. As Touya, all he has to go on is broken memories and the characterization Sayo already established; the characterization the community of Witch Hunters accepts as canon.

Not even Ange really knows, because she met him fairly rarely, and only in a specific context, which is now shaded by nostalgia and rose-tinted glasses.

The real Battler truly did die, because no one remains who can tell the world what sort of person he truly was.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-03-20, 13:10   Link #34976
Bluemail
Zero of the roulette
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Finland
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
Well, actually it could, since Rosatrice is on par with Sayotrice. Because of the loopholes in the story, especially in regards to the nature of EP7, Rosatrice was able to exist. Unless if Ryukishi says in red that "Rosa and George never killed anyone".
What is contained in Confession of the Golden Witch is the answer to Beatrice's true identity, motive and methods. No more room for interpretation. I advise you to read this interview, if you haven't already. Contained within is Ryukishi's official statement about CotGW and Sayo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryukishi07
The secret of the character of Sayo is the core of Uminekoís story, so her inner workings and development were designed carefully and with the utmost complexity.

In the original version, in order to leave room for imagination for the reader to solve the mystery, I chose not to draw Sayoís secrets in great detail (of course, itís still possible to grasp, but I didnít show things in a way where everyone would get it.)

With the manga version of Umineko, however, we considered the work to be a ďperiodĒ to the ďsentenceĒ that is the world of Umineko.

Because of this, when I met with Natsumi-sensei [Kei Natsumi, the artist of the manga adaptation of Uminekoís eighth episode], I asked her to show all the secrets in a way that can easily be understood by anyone.

Thus, all of the episode of Sayo that appeared in the EP8 manga is the official answer to the world of Umineko.

By no means is the manga version a individual interpretation. It is an official answer from me, Ryukishi07.
Sayotrice is THE answer. Rosatrice can never be THE answer. Period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
These were really an interesting read. You actually quoted KNM's objections and for the most part your arguments were fairly constructive and for that I applaud you.

I also saw at the end of your post in Tumblr that you were planning on going through hints that supposedly imply Rosa is Beatrice, so I'm looking forward for that one. If you'd like we could do a critical analysis of both theories sometime in the future, but not anytime soon.
Thank you! I already did a post criticising hints to Rosa being Beatrice, it is "Against Rosatrice, Part II". Maybe you didn't notice there were two links and only read the first one?

Quote:
This could be solved easily with both theories in mind actually. As long as Gohda and Kumasawa are unaware that the culprit would really kill them, it could easily work. But we should also not rule out the possibility that George may have been responsible for the switching of labels. There is no evidence that disproves this possibility.
You are correct.

Quote:
But if you listened to the voice from the PS3 version, Maria definitely said "minna" which means "everyone". I don't really think that the statement is up to interpretation though, as 2 toys being broken doesn't amount to "everyone". And Sakutaro was alive when she said that, so couldn't Maria have just said "I'll kill you, just like how Mama killed Chiester 556!"? Like wouldn't she just say like "my friends" or something along those lines, if more than one was involved? I don't remember in the slightest any evidence that there could be more toys that Rosa broke. It's possible, but we don't really know. We only know that Maria's friends were the illustrations of characters in her grimoire, the Chiester Sisters and Sakutaro. We know that Rosa couldn't have killed the illustration characters, since they were ripped up in 1998. And Rosa only broke 2 toys, so that shouldn't amount to "everyone". But yeah, "everyone" is definitely suspicious.
I think you're reading too far into Maria's choice of words, but fair enough.

Quote:
In the world where Eva survives, Eva does come to Ange, however Gretel-Ange did specify that her entire family didn't come back. But of course, if Gretel-Ange doesn't consider Eva as part of her family I guess it could work? I don't know I get the feeling that if she said that line about her whole family it should be golden truth, since that would mean that she doesn't consider Eva as part of her family. But because we get the red "entire family" well it should mean that it should include Eva, since it is a fact that Eva is part of her family whether she likes it or not. But putting into account The Witches' Tanabata extra arc, Eva does come back unless it isn't Gretel-Ange? Putting aside all this Sayotrice and Rosatrice stuff, in my opinion the future world is the real confusing bit of Umineko with some links to the meta-world to an extent.
I think the red refers to Ange's immediate family, siblings and parents, who live in the same house. Not her grandparents, aunts, uncles or cousins. Eva does not originally live in the same house with Ange, after all.
Ange: "Dad and Mom and Onii-chan...no one comes home!!"

Quote:
Hmm... it's possible, but part of that narration is actually what Ange saw or her thoughts, so this bit is really debatable, unless thoughts from other meta-characters can be seen in the narration by other meta-characters, which I doubt Beatrice could, since she, Ange and the other meta-characters aside from Bernkastel, Lambdadelta and Featherine are more or less on the same level of existence. But this begs the question. If Bernkastel wanted a bad ending, then why allow a possible future for Ange to have a better life if she chose magic? I have a theory in mind actually which links to the future world, but it's best to let the manga finish first before tackling this part of Umineko, since it could be debunked and later revealed in the manga eventually.
Are you sure Bernkastel wanted a bad ending that bad? In the EP8 Tea Party she said she had fun "playing the villain". She had a hell of a time being the cruelest witch in the world, but Bernkastel might still allow her happiness after a legitimate victory. I believe she didn't have a say in the matter, anyway. Battler and Bernkastel might actually be on a similar level meta-wise, but Bernkastel has more experience and freedom as a voyager witch.

Quote:
This is a bit off topic from Umineko, but at the end of Kamikanshi hen, there was the part when Rika said that she used "Google". Now we all know that in 1983, there wasn't any internet, especially from an area like Hinamizawa. It's a bit fishy, since that could mean that Outbreak and Kamikanshi hen are probably just fanservice (we see Une and Tamura in weird clothing and Hanyuu in a Sakutaro outfit).
I think you're reading too much into jokes.

Quote:
By the way, have you also read Kotogohushi hen? I have only read the summary, but at the end of it, the arc was actually one of many versions of the legend, which seems very similar to Umineko, as if to conceal the truth about Oyashiro. Not only that but the Hanyuu described in Kamikanshi hen seemed quite immature for stealing a cup of rice in the past, compared to the Hanyuu presented in Kotogohushi hen. But that would mean that a Voyager like Hanyuu should be able to interact in the real world directly (she did get a kid). So here's a question, do you think that Voyagers can also interact in the real world to the same extent as a Creator, as in like an actual person, rather than a cat (for all we know it is just a cat and it being Bernkastel might be in someone's imagination) or "ghost" (since none of Okonogi's men (most likely former Yamainu due to their designated numbers) saw Bern). Or as said at the end of Kotogohushi hen, it is just one of many stories and that Hanyuu may not have even existed and was only a parasite as stated in Kamikanshi hen, meaning that Kotogohushi hen is a magical interpretation like how some parts of Umineko are fictional?
I have read only a summary of Kotohogushi-hen as well. I don't know how much involvement Ryukishi had with Higurashi's extra arcs, it's doubtful he actually wrote all that. He probably supervised and gave it the green light, though. I'm glad that it being just an legend gives room to other interpretations. In the end the arc could be taken as another fantasy version of what really happened all those years ago. It's interesting though, how in Kotohogushi-hen Hanyuu's people came from the fifth dimension with futuristic technology, which would theoretically place them on the voyagers' or even Featherine's level.

I think Hanyuu did exist as a physical being at some point, and had a daughter with a human, with the bloodline eventually giving birth to Furude Rika. I think for a voyager to have a physical existence and be able to affect humans outside their thoughts, they need to be written into the fragment by someone on Featherine's level. Maybe this is what transferring from the fifth dimension is about? I see Ikuko and Touya's relationship as a similar event as Hanyuu and Furude Riku's, where the creator's piece falls in love with a human. Also, Hanyuu might have gained voyager abilities only after her initial lifespan where she gave birth to Furude Ouka, and used it for the first time when she brought Rika's consciousness with her to another fragment after Rika's first death.

Quote:
Random Question:
Am I the only one that ships Battler x Ikuko? For some reason, I just can't see Beatrice x Battler happening regardless if Beatrice is Rosa or Yasu. It would be interesting to see in the manga if they get married, had some kids, show up in front of Ange and she learns about it. Ange's reaction would be priceless if this would ever happen (I hope it does).
I don't ship Battler x Ikuko, I ship Touya x Ikuko.
In an interview it was said that Ryukishi originally intended for them to be married, but part of the staff didn't like it so he changed it. While doubtful, if Ikuko is secretly Yasuda...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
Ep 5 is far more random the way I see it...I somehow accept that dlanor can randomly forbit a truth to be used if it doesnt create a logic error.
When did this happen? I thought every red Dlanor used in EP5 was either based on Erika's investigations or the Knox Decalogue.

Quote:
And also - I think she DID expose her heart in the end of ep 6. Like featherine said: "its possible, but this trick cant be used a second time", "this will expose beatos heart". I think that this "exposing" and "cant be used a second time" is not really completely true, but more like ryukishi saying: "come on, you have to get it at least NOW, I cant make it any more obvious who the culprit is...".
I meant that she didn't need to disclose the solution, even if she made herself vulnerable by using a trick so close to her heart.

Quote:
I almost completely agree with everything you said! so you think the different worlds refer to the world of witches and the world of "normal people"? But dont you think it would be weird for her to go to "purgatory" now? I think purgatory is over, since she got rid of all her regrets and her hatred. actually this sentence is making me think now - because I almost read it as "world of the dead" vs "world of the living". But your interpretation was "world of witches" vs. "world of humans" right? Or maybe both? But I always think that battler said "we are all already dead" including himself. Why would he say that? and how would he "know" (or better: come to the belief) that he was dead if he wasnt? Battler knows what happened in prime. So i'm more inclined to think its "magic" vs. "human world" or maybe beato stays behind if its really a world battler created?
It's a mix of both humans vs witches and living vs dead, I think. What I meant with Battler going to the purgatory is not that it didn't happen already, but that it's basically a story written in retrospect that explains how Battler ended up there. The original reason he ended up in purgatory was that the boat had capsized and Battler lost his memory by accident. Battler wove a fantasy over this where the reason Battler lost his memory was that he purposefully followed Beatrice, so she wouldn't be alone. The end and the beginning now overlap, as Battler only got the resolve to be with Beatrice after his endeavors in the purgatory, but now it would be as if he was in the purgatory specifically for that purpose. Does that make sense?

Quote:
"Maybe that's why piece Battler struggled in the room more than he had to."

Hmm, it was said that in the vn the moment battlers heart died (=the moment he got the ring) he left the locked room on purpose because no matter what, he just didnt want to "die" in the locked room. Correct me if Im wrong please, but doesnt this mean that all his struggles in the room happened before he got the ring? When meta-battlers soul is in the room ("possessing" his piece or whatever) he still struggled to get out, which is one of the reasons I think he actually didnt wait for Beato to solve everything for him and just wanted to accept the new beato as her daughter (even if he still hoped for her to remember). After he "died" he was not able to do anything any more and only lay on the floor until kanon arrived. so that means he wouldnt be able to destroy the room any further after getting the ring
Oh, maybe the ring wasn't the reason then. I'm not really sure about how Lord Battler and his piece worked together, I'd have to check it thoroughly.

Quote:
1.every hint in umineko has a purpose (I already saw later in this post you agree with me here, so I dont think I have to explain again why I think so ) -> battlers memories in the locked room seemingly have no purpose and refer to nothing -> battlers memories must refer to prime -> battler says he remembers a horrible family gathering when he was very young -> its stated battler was never betrayed before coming to rokkenjima, asumu gave him all the love she could and never was there any mention of a horrible familiy gathering (but every hint must have a reference so this family gathering must refer to something we know of) + battler spent years in this closed room -> battler refers to the only horrible family-gathering we know of and that is prime when he was "still only" 18 years old
The family gathering being "horrible" doesn't need to mean anything as horrible as serial murders, it could be that the relatives teased him a bit too much, it was boring, etc. If we assume this was a young Battler from before he left the family six years ago, I could see a scenario where Battler was not very fond of that year's gathering, he fell asleep and was brought to a guest room he didn't know well at that time. He woke up all alone, and his imagination went wild from the stories of the witch in the woods. Of course the room being locked with a chain might not have happened, it would be a mix of a memory and Battler's logic error.

Quote:
4.the "room he didnt know"-> what room do we know he definitely doesnt know? - > we only know of one such room, because for all the rooms in the guest-house and the mansion, its at least possible he knew them + since I do think the part with the "he doesnt know" would be unnecessary if it was such a room in the mansion or the guest-house + no hints are unnecessary -> there is only one room left
I'm not sure if Battler knew the mansion that well at all, and the guest house wasn't there six years ago, if I remember correctly, so there's probably plenty of unknown rooms for him. But don't mind me.

Quote:
5. he says him and chain-locks dont go well together, "you can do something about all the other ones, but you cant do anything about chain-locks" -> but in fact you can just undo every chain lock in the rooms of the mansion or the guest-house from the inside -> it cant refer to a normal chain lock-> it must refer to a chain-lock that is applied from the outside-> room under kuwadorian fits since its basically a prison (with devices to hold people in there too btw - so Im not sure if a chain lock might even refer to one of them)
To me that sentence sounds like talking about the concept of chain locks on the game boards as mystery devices that you can only use from the inside. And he laments how that has given him trouble before. But that might just be me. Sounds a bit like your "Beatrice locking herself in a room" theory.

Quote:
last part Im quoting though, if it was written by Touya - I was thinking like that because featherine was participating in this story. and they were saying something like "featherine was looking differently before and the "tiara" is protecting her because she lost her memories once". So thats why I thought touya was involved in ep 8....Im interested in this: "there's merit in thinking that Touya created at least some version of Twilight of the Golden Witch". How would that version look like?
While the thing about Featherine's memory device being damaged could be taken as a hint to Touya's situation, there's a theory that it might also refer to the memory device's damage resulted in Hanyuu's personality somehow. One of Hanyuu's horns has a cut in it, and the memory device resembles those horns.

About Touya's Twilight of the Golden Witch, maybe it's the Halloween party and what would have happened if Bern hadn't interrupted the game. Perhaps the family would have continued their time together peacefully until Beatrice would present Ange her candy trick riddle with the choice of Magic or Trick.

Quote:
Hehe, I admit I was exaggerating a little, what I meant to say was "she has to be pretty old". well, if I accept it like its presented, then touya was 18 when he met ikuko. and by that time, ikuko was already ~30 or above (just passed the marriageable age, but here my japanese culture knowledge is lacking and I cant narrow down her age at that time any more). So if ange is ~50, touya is around ~60 and ikuko would be around ~70. and she still looks faaaar younger than touya. I think Ange is around 50 because she was diagnosed with cancer (?) if I remember right? And she published so many books already...also because she says: "we've both gotten old, havent we?"its certainly possible that ikuko is featherines piece though! That would explain it! But for this we have to discuss what you wrote in your other post so Im leaving it at that here. I also think so though-no matter if later we can agree on one theory or not - I also gave in to the witch in this scene in a way
Oh, I forgot about the game mentioning she might still just be in the age range for marriage, but wasn't that Touya's observation? We cannot know what her actual age was when she met Touya, if her appearance stayed unchanged from that point. Geez, she might be even older. But I think them being 50-70 when meeting Ange is a good guess. At least technology apparently hasn't taken a leap in the decades from 1998 to the year Umineko ends, so it's not that far away in the future. While I'd like the idea that the ending took place in 2010 when EP8 was released, that isn't really decades from 1998.

Quote:
Yes, thats what I was thinking about as well. that she had already lost. and thats a valid argument and Im having a hard time to argue against it...but there was still something that happened on the second day, and there are so many hints left open that tell us that she could not just have confessed. First of all, the way beato is at the beginning of the story when prime already happened. I cant believe she would be so full of hatred and regret in the meta-purgatory if she confessed everything already. and in manga ep 8 she also showed that she died without being even slightly satisfied. Since I do believe a large chunk of the story is about redemption on pugatory after you died, and beato only confesses at the end of ep 8, I somehow find the meta-world would lose a large part of its meaning. And the "I knew a man who was believing..."(ep 5) and the hints to the locked room dont make any sense. Also: battler never ever had the chance the way its presented in prime to solve beatos "puzzle", so the hint "battler was too late" that is repeated often doesnt make any sense. He was too late in understanding beato so she couldnt have confessed everything. She still for some reason wanted him to understand her himself.
I think Beato didn't tell Battler everything for the same reasons, too. There is a certain degree of things she could have told him, but not everything. Perhaps she did tell something that when Battler reached the truth later, this memory convinced him this was indeed the truth.

Quote:
"I think Kyrie is a very interesting parallel to Beatrice about the dangers of thinking about real life as a game and other people as pieces on a board."
But she is at the end, quite different from beato, cause beato is using basically every kind of "noise" that kyrie excludes from her chessboard-thinking. someone making the wrong decisions on a whim, someone not fighting to win, emotions...these are all things she doesnt think about and thats why battler has such a problem in ep 1. kyrie is more like the "orthogonal" to beato maybe thats why beato loses the game in prime?
Yes, Kyrie is similar but not exactly the same. Opposite to Beato, who leaves everything up to fate, she is a player who doesn't leave anything to chance.

Quote:
"Kyrie worried about her daughter until the very end" was a white lie Eva wrote on the lid of the catbox."
Thanks for clarifying this point. But doesnt it basically say that Eva did not influence the way the events in ep 7 tea party were presented?
She did not alter any scenes she witnessed herself. There might be exaggeration and misinterpretation in scenes she did not witness.
Bluemail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-03-20, 14:02   Link #34977
Inbuiltx9
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
You know, an interesting thing about Battler is that he's technically the character we know least about in the Ushiromiya family.

Like, the Battler we get to know over the course of so many episodes is basically a fictional character that attains meta-awareness, but who wrote that character? Sayo.

When did she write him? Technically, probably before she met him again in 1986, because seriously there is no way she had the time AFTER the incident and the consistent death of Eva implies she didn't foresee the actual conclusion of events when she was writing.

If Sayo wrote Beatrice before meeting him in 1986, then the Battler she wrote is basically the 12 year old Battler he knows put in an 18 year old body. Which...explains a lot about Battler's personality, doesn't it? She even made him the Detective and POV character so that he was the one character beyond suspicion. The guaranteed innocent, who even comes dressing in white like a hero deserving a matching horse.

The Battler we know in Umineko is an idealized representation of him. He was definitely afraid of motorboats and plans when he was 12, but did he retain that fear when he was 18? Was he as heroic and naive and sweet and bullheaded as Sayo imagined him to be? Was he actually the true innocent or was he the murderous Black Battler?

Not even Battler himself knows. As Touya, all he has to go on is broken memories and the characterization Sayo already established; the characterization the community of Witch Hunters accepts as canon.

Not even Ange really knows, because she met him fairly rarely, and only in a specific context, which is now shaded by nostalgia and rose-tinted glasses.

The real Battler truly did die, because no one remains who can tell the world what sort of person he truly was.
Oh, that is interesting! I was wondering too if meta-battler was just a fiction of beato, but I didnt think of the stuff you did, I was just wondering why Lambda says to battler "you are a spirit body of a human that is allowed to exist in beatos cat-box". That sounds like its really the true battler, but at the same time it sounds like they exist in the stories that beato wrote.

And actually, his naivity and the fact that he really didnt change at all like you described would actually fit very well.

"The real Battler truly did die, because no one remains who can tell the world what sort of person he truly was."
If that was the case that would be pretty terrible...I wouldnt put it past Ryukishi though...Im open-minded now for every theory that explains the meta now, because, I revised my theory a bit - Im still sticking to "battler in the room", but I found hints that say he actually got out somehow...or whoever got out then. and I also still stick to my dawn=magic ending theory, but there is now the question again: what is the meta? when did the meta appear...when was the meta created? I also think bluemails ideas are worth to take a look at.

so your opinion would be: when beato created her game-baord - when she wrote the story, the meta was created. And I can see that be true somehow, but there are some questions I have to ask now:
1. why is the meta giving us clues about what really happened in prime?
2. who is touya at the end?
3. why are they talking about stuff like: "wouldnt it be bad if you died without being satisfied?" doesnt that sound like we have to get clues about someones (=beatos) death in the meta? but beato was still alive when she wrote the stories. or do you think she somehow included her death in it?
4.what is ange then? and how do we even know eva survived?
5. how can beato reach a satisfying conclusion? It would be like self-therapy, do you think that would be enough?
6. how can we even be sure anything is real at all?

I think there are more questions that would come up if I go on thinking. Those are only the ones I spontaneously came up with. But wed have to find answers that make sense to these anyways so we might start with them as well. I especially find it hard to integrate the eva and ange story here.
Inbuiltx9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-03-20, 16:09   Link #34978
Inbuiltx9
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
When did this happen? I thought every red Dlanor used in EP5 was either based on Erika's investigations or the Knox Decalogue.
When she sealed the red truth for kinzos dead body and battler had to say it with the golden truth. She sealed this truth and I still have no clue how...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
I meant that she didn't need to disclose the solution, even if she made herself vulnerable by using a trick so close to her heart.
Ok I think I understood what you mean. but I think there was never an intention to disclose everything clearly about her. Battler has to prove in this game he understood beato. I think that was what the love-duel was intended for. If he manages to prove it, he can leave the game-board-world, like ryukishi said in an interview (or like bern says). Thats why one major goal of the game is to show he understood beato and use some kanon/shannon trick. But battler also said this: "I will win this game for the witches side". And that means: "showing he understood beato" + "winning for the witches side" = "prove it you understood it by some trick". erika doesnt need to understand that trick for battler to prove he understood it.
But as we know, battler also wanted more than just that and in the end erika screwed up the whole game/story. So the result was that a similar trick battler intended in the beginning was used and it still worked somehow to prove that he understood beato, but nothing else did. "Its the pieces job to understand their master even if he cant directly tell them anymore" - hint similar to episode 5, where the pieces also were fighting for beato (mainly the beato-piece) - they still brought the game to the "minimum-end" that was possible. And that leaves more freedom now to dedicate a game primarily to Ange. Thats how I see it at least. By the way -thats what I think battler refers to with his golden truth when he said: even though you think this game should not have been made anymore, its the game I dedicate to ange. If he wanted to, battler could leave the world now, since he (indirectly) had already shown he understood beato in game 6.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
It's a mix of both humans vs witches and living vs dead, I think. What I meant with Battler going to the purgatory is not that it didn't happen already, but that it's basically a story written in retrospect that explains how Battler ended up there. The original reason he ended up in purgatory was that the boat had capsized and Battler lost his memory by accident. Battler wove a fantasy over this where the reason Battler lost his memory was that he purposefully followed Beatrice, so she wouldn't be alone. The end and the beginning now overlap, as Battler only got the resolve to be with Beatrice after his endeavors in the purgatory, but now it would be as if he was in the purgatory specifically for that purpose. Does that make sense?
Yes it sure does! Thats one way to think about it of course! That might be even THE way. (But there are also some other proposals about what the meta is. I have to think them through) But its really promising. I really have to comment about your meta-theory now.. The problem I have is just the thing with the motor-boat: there seem to be too many references that he was afraid when he was small, that still makes me doubt that a little. But if I think about it now, it wouldnt be that big a problem if in prime, he didnt leave the island immediately and still had some time to get rid of his fear :P

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
Oh, maybe the ring wasn't the reason then. I'm not really sure about how Lord Battler and his piece worked together, I'd have to check it thoroughly.
No no, I think the ring was definitely the reason. they say "the ring would even steal his heart away" and when kanon finds battler in the room its mentioned "battler had left the room in the moment when his heart died". the thing with the chain-lock changing shape, the fact that he couldnt remember how he got there all points to that. and with that I think it actually makes sense now that erika calls it "hell" where they are in ep 6...
I really do not want to go there again how the relation between game-master and piece work XD Im just gonna state what I believe: ep 8: player-ange is sometimes taking over piece-ange. And imagine that player-ange, through piece-ange, would now be stuck somehow and couldnt go back to her original body ~ situation of game 6. thats why meta-battler made an effort to get out of the room and thats why I think its doubtful that he wanted beato to get him out. but it might also be that in between he changed his strategy and waited for her to solve the room. I would be fine with this.

Quote:
The family gathering being "horrible" doesn't need to mean anything as horrible as serial murders, it could be that the relatives teased him a bit too much, it was boring, etc. If we assume this was a young Battler from before he left the family six years ago, I could see a scenario where Battler was not very fond of that year's gathering, he fell asleep and was brought to a guest room he didn't know well at that time. He woke up all alone, and his imagination went wild from the stories of the witch in the woods. Of course the room being locked with a chain might not have happened, it would be a mix of a memory and Battler's logic error.
Thanks for your opinion! its entirely possible what you said. But the reason I still stick to this even though I know its possible to see it otherwise is this: every hint has to have a reference. And there are no unnecessary hints.
He would refer at a family-gathering that is not meaningful at all, it would have no consequences except for this one locked room, and that would make it a completely unnecessary hint. Like I said: I dont think we are supposed to imagine some scene that could have happened, but we are only supposed to reconstruct and put the hints together. This hint would be leading nowhere, wed have to invent some scene ourselves. Almost everything in the course of the games refers to prime - if we think this hint doesnt refer to prime, its like all the hints go straight forward and only this one is turning left I know where the main problem with my theory lies: I said it meant battler died in the room. And that causes a problem with many other theories out there. But its really like you said: there are no hints that go nowhere, everything has a purpose. we should start from there. Maybe its a bit easier to accept if I said even though I still believe in my theory, battler didnt die there?

Quote:
I'm not sure if Battler knew the mansion that well at all, and the guest house wasn't there six years ago, if I remember correctly, so there's probably plenty of unknown rooms for him. But don't mind me.
Why wouldnt I mind you? I too have to look at the hide and seek - comment again. And I agree we cant be sure he does not not know any other room. thats why I said: its the difference between this room and the other ones is that its at least "possible" for battle to know all the other rooms.
And then we have something similar as before: the hint "a room he didnt know" would be there in vain. Its not necessary because it would just be a random room in the mansion, if he knows this room or not wouldnt matter at all right? And anyways, if it was a room in the mansion the chain-lock-comment doesnt make sense..But youre right when you say:

Quote:
To me that sentence sounds like talking about the concept of chain locks on the game boards as mystery devices that you can only use from the inside. And he laments how that has given him trouble before. But that might just be me. Sounds a bit like your "Beatrice locking herself in a room" theory.
I thought about that too because I was unsure about my theory in the beginning too. The first time I thought something was off was actually pretty late when I read the manga ep 4 - it was this "eiserne jungfrau" there that made me associate umineko with alice in wonderland where the things the protagonist sees in the real world are brought over to a dream-world. But then I still believed in the touya-book-ending like it was presented (it was all a book), but there were just too many other clues that popped up.

Anyways, I also thought about solving this comment with "he refers to the chain-locks during the games". But that doesnt make sense, because its not just the chain-locks that give him problems in the games, the normal locks are just the same. But he said "you can do something about the other ones, but you cant do anything with chain locks". In the course of the games, he even has more problems with normal locks than with chain-locks. most of the time normal locks either mean he has to suspect someone or he isnt able to solve the riddle with them at all or its giving him at least some trouble, like the locked-room-chain. there were enough locked rooms without a chain-lock that gave him a hard time, and the ones with the chain-locks werent any harder to explain than usual locks. When I thought about it, the comment made no sense when interpreting it this way. But I dont know if you have another idea? There would still be many other hints thogh

And like you see - ep 4: the tests, ep 3: the creation of the game-board + the urging of beato to keep thinking + and probably the acting of beato, ep 3: eva survives, ep 5: beato dies...everything that happens in the meta is based on events that happen in the real world, even if abstracted (like in alice in wonderland-I dont want to say its a hallucination or a dream though). so ep 6: battler in a closed room. Im just saying it fits, I didnt think "battler in a closed room" -> must be prime. I found all the clues mentioned in my last post before I realized that everything in the meta refers to something that happened in prime.


I made a mistake - battler probably did not die sorry long text follows, but i think it will be interesting, it feels like this childrens game hit the pot when they scream "hot hot hot" (or maybe "coooold")

Now, theres the problem with battler dying in the room. I thought about this a bit more and if I continue based on the fact that "no unnecessary hint" then it turns out he didnt die there! I havent yet thought about the consequences and still have to connect it with the rest, so the following points might be a bit "frail", but I think I found enough hints that point to that. Again, your opinion would be hightly appreciated!!:

So Battler didnt die there, but he sure stayed there a long time.
1.kanon: "the time was flowing different here, who knows how many years have passed" -> no unnecessary hints => battler couldnt leave the room immediately, he probably spent years there, just like kanon said (i know this causes problems but still, there are a ton of hints...)
Also this explains why we all feel like the "creepy room" in ep 6 is so close to reality. kanon says: in the world of the pieces its only a few minutes but here in this room its been years. so we get really close to reality in this room, and time starts to flow normally again like in the real world (though we're still in the locked room from before, its not reality yet). and now look at point 7.) please. because that explains why battler feels a discrepance between body (old) and mind (young) at the end. if the world of the pieces is really going much slower than reality-time, that makes sense (and theres even more hints for that!)
2.ep 6 battler is locked in the closed room -his thoughts are "I wont die, I wont die" => these thoughts are "somewhat" (not completely though) out of place, but just look at the scene in the manga and youll probably understand what I mean -> Imo refers to battlers thoughts in prime
3.kanons "wont you go back?" (ep 6, after the rescue) too is somehow out of place -> battler has the chance to still make it back in prime too
4. a hint is shown when battler understands the truth about the world -we rapidly see scenes flash by - not randomly, they are exactly the same in the manga:
one of the scenes show kyrie talking to battler: "im jealous of you. I want to be able to leave too" + there are no unnecessary hints -> what would she be referring to? battler can "leave" (of course that would also fit everyone else's theory, but the hints for the locked room would be left hanging)
5. the by far! biggest clue that at that point battler is not definitely dead is the following: in ep 5 vigilia and silent-beato talk, virgilia: "are you afraid?" beato nods. virgilia: "its time now to find out whats in the cat-box. if the cat is dead lay it to rest, if the cat is alive, you have to nurse it back to health. its time for you to die now, beatrice" -> Ill state it bluntly: battler is the cat, beato doesnt know if he is alive or dead in real life because she died before him, beato fears that he is dead because she locked him in the room. "beato will die now" -she does in ep 5 like she did in prime. "the cat-box opening" virgilia mentions is an abstract way of talking about what will happen at the end of episode 5 - and the result for silent-beato of that cat-box-opening was that battler had died. She too dies, but battler "comes back to life" without beato knowing it. He still wants to let her know, but shes already dead. you see how virgilia is actually causing the situation by giving battler a red truth and then disappearing. she wanted the things that happened at the end of ep 5 to happen. now, I really have to think what that exactly means for prime, I just have to "translate" that for prime. but until now I can only say: battler survived even though beato was not only fearing he died/would die, but she even strongly believed in prime he died/would die.
6. another two big clues are the following: when battler is found by ikuko he thinks: "Im 18. I actually had no idea if I was 18, but thats what came to mind" -> why would his age be so important? -> no unnecessary clues - > he is not 18 any more by that time. Also...
7. ...ep 8, battler is found by ikuko : "it felt like only my mind had stayed young and my body had grown old" -> no unnecessary clues - > he really has grown older
8. I already mentioned it, but in the manga, we always see a calender, but we never see the year + no unnecessary clues -> the year is not 1986
9. someone here mentioned how its not possible that they already had internet by that time, he wondered if touya had spent so much time there -> no, its just that its not 1986 any more
10. there is still something off about ikuko, but in the last scene it wouldnt be that surprising anymore that she still seems to be so young, there were no decades that have passed, so what I said earlier, about her being 70, is probably not true
11. battler thinks about his memories in the locked room as something that occured "when I was very young" -that doesnt only refer to the years that pass in the locked room, that also refers to how he thinks about it as the prime-battler. after all, in this room reality and meta are almost converging. that actually explains why battler thinks directly about what happened in prime, I think we only got hints and hidden messages until that point right?
12. ep 6, the pieces: "battler cant make it out of his own, no matter how hard he tries", they repeat that quite often and drive down the point that someone has to come to help him -> in prime who is coming? ikuko? (wild guess)
13. battlers chain-collar in ep 6 is mentioned to be quite long, it actually reaches far out into the floor + no unnecessary hints -> why would ryukishi make the chain this long? I think here we find the reason how battler still survived


I think thats too much to just ignore. I still have to think about open questions now, because that sure has many implications... It also sounds like the meta is occuring "while" battler is in the locked room. But Im unsure here, I really still have to think things through. If I can, I think wed get close to understand what the meta is. Also with all the hints I based them on the thought: almost everything is referring to prime (I realized that before through all the other hints) but I didnt mention it above on purpose, because someone might think Im forcing the theory through that. So I didnt mention it, to show the hints are still there. But what do you think? Stupid theory? Are there arguments against it?

last four things I want to mention:
14. this point is a bit vague, but in the meta battler can get out of the game-world once he shows he understood everything about beato. if I think that everything refers to the real world, if I think that the I can substitue "game-word" with "locked room", if I think that the meta occurs "while" battler is in the locked room, I wonder how it works in the real world? how can he get out of the room once he shows he understood beato? And who was it that let battler out? I have a question: was it shown in ep 7 tea party that genji had died? (this is really just a random guess)...i also already suspected ikuko...

15. battler still has the possibility to get out of the room, the moment this possibility is blocked it becomes true hell - the possibility is blocked not in prime, but in the meta-world when erika doesnt let him get out anymore. I think thats why she and beato call the chapel where the marriage is taking place "hell"

16. the fact that the locked-room-logic-error hell is a hell-of-thought seems to me to hint at battler thinking in the locked room as hard as he can to understand beato, lambda: "prepare yourself for a hell where you cant get out of if you give up on thinking". He only gets out of the locked room once he solves beatos puzzle. But I dont know how that works yet...

17. ep 5 after battler "died": "death here didnt mean true death, it meant having given up on thinking. the witches had chased him out of the game-board."
I think we are really close at understanding the meta here, it might be a world of pure thought, a "space of pure reasoning"-wasnt that mentioned somewhere in ep 5? The world of thought battler enters while in the locked-room. and that would give the "sea of oblivion" a new meaning...Does that make sense? Im still thinking...

Quote:
While the thing about Featherine's memory device being damaged could be taken as a hint to Touya's situation, there's a theory that it might also refer to the memory device's damage resulted in Hanyuu's personality somehow. One of Hanyuu's horns has a cut in it, and the memory device resembles those horns.
I know about Hanyuus horn, but sadly I really dont remember Higurashi all that well anymore. But that sure makes a lot of sense! I didnt know that and I think that is indeed an explanation.

Quote:
About Touya's Twilight of the Golden Witch, maybe it's the Halloween party and what would have happened if Bern hadn't interrupted the game. Perhaps the family would have continued their time together peacefully until Beatrice would present Ange her candy trick riddle with the choice of Magic or Trick.
Oh sure! That might be actually true! Even though he got what he wanted in the end, the way he got it sure differed from what he had planned. that makes actually a lot of sense!

Quote:
Oh, I forgot about the game mentioning she might still just be in the age range for marriage, but wasn't that Touya's observation? We cannot know what her actual age was when she met Touya, if her appearance stayed unchanged from that point. Geez, she might be even older. But I think them being 50-70 when meeting Ange is a good guess. At least technology apparently hasn't taken a leap in the decades from 1998 to the year Umineko ends, so it's not that far away in the future. While I'd like the idea that the ending took place in 2010 when EP8 was released, that isn't really decades from 1998.
Oh yes, sorry, "just barely still marriageable" yeah, that would make ikuko a really old woman. but like I explained, maybe I was wrong and she is not that old...

Quote:
I think Beato didn't tell Battler everything for the same reasons, too. There is a certain degree of things she could have told him, but not everything. Perhaps she did tell something that when Battler reached the truth later, this memory convinced him this was indeed the truth.
Its possible. But the fact that she had so many regrets...I dont know yet. Do you know any hints for that?

Last edited by Inbuiltx9; 2015-03-20 at 17:43.
Inbuiltx9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-03-20, 16:51   Link #34979
Leslie Chow
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Quote:
Sayotrice is THE answer. Rosatrice can never be THE answer. Period.
I've already read the interview, but if I may add, someone could still interpret the interviews in a way that could support their own theory. And I saw from somewhere that Ryukishi never intended to reveal the answer, so when he revealed Sayotrice it could be taken in three ways:

1. Ryukishi is lying.

2. Ryukishi is only showing a layer in the story. Sayotrice exists but in the form of fiction within Umineko. After all Yasu is the core of Umineko in both theories regardless.

3. Ryukishi changed his mind and decided to show the solution anyway.

It is such a shame that a lot of Rosatrice fans dismiss these interviews and the manga version as non-canon, as it really shows that they never even think.

Quote:
Maybe you didn't notice there were two links and only read the first one?
The second link didn't work for three times but it is working now. I got to read it, still constructive, but it is somewhat limited to just what KNM said. But then again, KNM was more focused on hard logic and didn't go into great detail with the "heart". Also, in the same post, you said that Sakutaro was made by Rosa, and yet it was massed produced and Beatrice was able to say so in red misguidedly since she didn't know it wasn't mass produced. But she was still able to say Rosa made it. She was gonna say more but it was cut short since you can't lie with the red truth. Plus it could be that Beatrice (or Rosa) could have been emotional and tried lying with the red, in the same way she was lying to that child wellfare officer.

I have also taken a look at your other post concerning the number of bodies. The red No more than 17 human beings exist on this island!! doesn't necessarily count Shannon and Kanon as one, but doesn't it say that at maximum that there are could be 17 people? I think the statement doesn't prove it, but doesn't disprove it either. Also the reds concerning three people doesn't say much.

The most interesting part of the post is your take on the 18th human being red that Erika said. I haven't seen anyone tackle this red on the Sayotrice perspective. I think this red is on the same level of truth with the red concerning corpses in my opinion.

Quote:
I would actually be interested in reading your theory just to simply hear it. Even if it turns out to be wrong, it sounds like it would be interesting.
My theory goes along the lines that the magic ending is a fragment created by Bernkastel using the fragments from Prime and Game 2. Ange definitely died in Prime, but was revived by winning against Bernkastel in the magic ending, the fragment Bernkastel created. Tohya survived the 2nd game and learned about the games. Then when he was taken in by Ikuko and started the novels, he simply wrote the stories from memory or he brought some copies of it with him. It is kind of strange that the 3rd and 4th novels seem to be sequels to the message bottles Sayo originally wrote. Meta-Beatrice also seems to be the game master of games 3 and 4 as well. Moreover only the second game is actually the only game that Battler survived and when he could have had the opportunity to learn about the elaborate plans. The fact that Meta-Beatrice is the GM of games 3 and 4 leads me to believe that Sayo is still the original author of Games 3 and 4. Yes they had CotGW, but at best, they could have only integrated the tricks outlined in the message bottle, but shouldn't this mean that Battler and/or Ikuko should be the GM instead? I think this isn't the same case as Dawn where Ikuko supposedly wrote the 6th game and Battler was the GM. It could be that together with Tohya, they were able to make the 6th game, hence why Battler is still the GM in the meta-world.

There are three ways to interpret the ending in EP8 with Battler and Beatrice escaping.

Rosatrice:

In game 2, after learning everything Battler was able to convince Rosa to escape with Maria. The fantasy scene where Battler and Beatrice left is the culprit's fantasy if they make it out alive. Unfortunately they don't, but only Battler did.

Sayotrice:

The ending could be from either Game 2 or Prime. Sayo's fantasy before shooting herself or before getting killed by Kyrie and Rudolf. It could also be Battler's fantasy as well.

Prime:

Didn't happen. Just a fantasy created to be an end to all the talks about Rokkenjima incident. Battler may have been on his own when he escaped after separating from Eva.

But until we see the complete end of EP8 manga, I have nothing left to say concerning this issue as they might also go into better detail as to how Battler escaped the island and if Battler really met Beatrice or if she really got killed by Kyrie and Rudolf.
Leslie Chow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-03-21, 00:47   Link #34980
haguruma
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 34
Send a message via ICQ to haguruma Send a message via MSN to haguruma
Sometimes it really sucks living out in the inaka...
Even though the capital city here has an Animate, they always get the next issue of GanGan 2-3 days late

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
The ultimate present Battler could think of is of course this: fulfilling Beatos wish. And what is Beatos wish? She clearly stated it, we dont have to guess: its for Battler to take beato away from the island. Battler ep 6:"Im able to get you out of the "game-board" (read:island, because the game-board only includes the island, look at the opening to have it illustrated ) , I believe that is your wish". Isnt it quite obvious what Battlers plans were for ep 6?
Well, for one I would really love for you to tell me where Battler said that line, since I cannot find it. What I did find is him saying that he will prove to Beato that he solved her riddle and will show his understanding with this game. Beato says at the wedding ceremony at the end that:
"Since I created this tale out of the wish to be with you, the goal for this world is already fulfilled.
So I ask you to weave what lies ahead.
The story of me and you from now on...
"
(Note that I am quoting from the manga, since my current laptop can't even handle Umineko properly)
Then Battler closes the ceremony by saying that he will end the story as the epitaph to the Golden Land tells, especially for his most beloved witch Beatrice to rest peacefully.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
Thats a good point! But I dont think he ever forgot Anges feelings.
He did worry about her, but he felt his obligation to Beato and himself were bigger. Also Tohya didn't want to meet her because he didn't think of himself as Battler anymore.
Meta-Battler even admits that his approach towards Ange in EP8 was wrong and that he tried to push his idea on Ange in the beginning because he thought that he knew better than her. His game could be overthrown by Bern because he was acting too much like Beato did, making Ange struggle even more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
"The real Battler truly did die, because no one remains who can tell the world what sort of person he truly was."
If that was the case that would be pretty terrible...I wouldnt put it past Ryukishi though...
Well, that is the situation we are faced with right now, isn't it? I at least think AT and I share the same idea on this one.
Tohya is technically Battler, but at the same time he is not. The story tells us that, due to the injuries and trauma he sustained, Ushiromiya Battler is gone and won't ever return in the form he existed before the incident. In that sense, the Battler of the 1998 conference is again a catbox. Since even Tohya is unable to perfectly recall the thoughts and events concerning that day, they are forever lost to ambiguity. No person who met Battler on that day is alive at the point where Ange ponders these questions, so in a way Battler is truly dead.

Quote:
so your opinion would be: when beato created her game-baord - when she wrote the story, the meta was created. And I can see that be true somehow, but there are some questions I have to ask now:
Just to clear a few things up:
According to the narrative the meta-world was not created by Beato creating the gameboard. The Capital of Books plot in EP8 makes clear that, within the fantasy-narrative, the world of witches and magical beings is a layer of itself. The keepers of the library collect stories, which are basically selective events from "our world" and store them for the highest witches to entertain themselves. Then there are several offices which are there to ensure that a proper structure is maintained when reading and reenacting these stories.
Some of these stories seem to be influenced by the witches themselves - e.g. Featherine's game against Lambda in which Bernkastel was born - because Featherine says something along the lines of, the most interesting tales are those woven by the children of men themselves.

Beato became famous in the capital because she managed to create a gameboard with a set of rules that allowed for an endless number of tales to be created around it.

Quote:
1. why is the meta giving us clues about what really happened in prime?
Because it is necessary for the game that Ryukishi opened between us (the reader) and him (the author) and also because the meta-world is reflective of the thoughts processes of those who read the stories around Beato's gameboard.

Quote:
2. who is touya at the end?
The body of Ushiromiya Battler without any form of conscious association with that identity.

Quote:
3. why are they talking about stuff like: "wouldnt it be bad if you died without being satisfied?" doesnt that sound like we have to get clues about someones (=beatos) death in the meta? but beato was still alive when she wrote the stories. or do you think she somehow included her death in it?
By current consensus, the meta is not solely reflective of what Sayo thought in 1986 when writing the message bottles. It is also (if not more) illustrating the thoughts and ideas of the people who get to read both the message bottles and the forgeries after the incident.
This is especially made clear in EP5 and 6, where we actually enter the narrative at a point where the gameboard story has already advanced, but we are going back, rereading the story while commenting on it.

Quote:
4.what is ange then? and how do we even know eva survived?
For me, and here I agree with some other people, Ange is actually just that, Ushiromiya Ange. I also think that for narrative purposes she actually does dive into the stories in a way and takes part in them while actually standing on a rooftop in Tokyo, contemplating what to do with her life. It's kind of like a reverse Rika from Saikoroshi-hen, but both arrive at the conclusion that in the end the only thing to do is give up on what-ifs and actually live.
Concerning Eva? The narrative tells us so, doubting such a basic element would basically give way to chaos and allow everything to be possible.

Quote:
5. how can beato reach a satisfying conclusion? It would be like self-therapy, do you think that would be enough?
I don't really know what you are getting at here. Beato's conclusion is that:
Beatrice died in October 1986. The Golden Land that she created was completely wiped out.
All your relatives who were kept alive by the Golden Land were wiped out as well
Your father and mother and of course Battler
will never again return to where you are to call out your name

The only satisfying conclusion that Beato can reach is that she can be kept alive as a positive figure in stories and be freed from the burden of punishing the Ushiromiya family that she put on herself.

Quote:
6. how can we even be sure anything is real at all?
That is a question that goes beyond Umineko.
How can we be sure that the murderer in Murder of Roger Ackroyd was not covering for another actual culprit? How can we be sure that Dune is not actually the hallucination of somebody dying in a desert? How can we be sure that Bastian didn't just die of starvation up in the attic while reading the Neverending Story?
One of the things that is also highlighted by Chiru is that there has to be a certain level of trust between the author and the reader. If that doesn't exist then the whole narrative just falls apart.
haguruma is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:47.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
We use Silk.