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Old 2015-03-22, 19:05   Link #35001
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
I didn't even notice that Ange jumped when I first read through haguruma's translation. I guess it's a bit hard when you don't have images. That's an interesting change. At least it takes back the impossibility of Ange's other adventures, but takes some weight away from Bernkastel's words.
LOL, honestly I've sort of missed it as well.
This bit made me wonder...

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The safety-net...
I...read the Book of the One Truth...
fell into despair...
and threw myself off there...
My beaten and broken heart was saved by all of them...
....ouuuch...!
Of course, I'm not fine at all.
I still have luck like a witch of miracles.
But since in the VN it didn't happen I thought I was reading too much into this... Haguruma confirmed the manga showed Ange ended up jumping as he said

Quote:
Going by a completely non-magical explanation, we could also say that this is her waking up in the safety net. The next scene shows Ange quite bruised, lying in the safety net, a few stories below.

Guess Bern should have actually double-checked if really nobody could be saved by such a safety net. As always, her research was kinda lacking, being satisfied with having the Red that Ange dies.
And to be honest... really Bern, they do safety net for a reason. Of course they might not always work but theoretically they should have a higher chance to work than one to fail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
That's a good theory! Our lovable idiot Battler braves the storm to save Beatrice, while Eva doesn't want that risk and goes to Kuwadorian instead. It pleases my dramatic sense. I still wonder why Eva didn't write anything about this in her diary, though. If reading it would reveal most of the bad stuff anyway, why not go all the way and tell the rest of it?
Well, I've always thought the diary would be a little self absolving.
In the diary she can write that Natsuhi was killed by incident and the same happened to Krauss and that she got rid of Kyrie and Rudolf because they were murderers who tried to kill her and would have tried to do so again so she's sort of telling herself it was self defence and she blasted the island away because she didn't want Ange to find out the horrible stuffs her parents did but if she forced Battler to leave the island while there was a storm because she refused to take Sayo with them and they didn't make it... then it's murder without any excuse.

It would tie nicely with Ep 3 in which Eva shot Battler.

She would have forced him to take a decision that, she knew, was suicidal, and all to cover up her own crime. She might have told him 'if we carry with us a girl that has a bullet wound we won't be able to cover this anymore and your sister will know what your parents did' and he might have agreed that in order to cover up things he would have to find another way to bring Sayo to safety and therefore we'll have them agreeing to keep everything hidden and 'closing the door' but well... I think she would have known that the other way was so dangerous it was almost suicide and that covering up the truth for Ange wouldn't be worth her brother's life.

In "10 little indians" one of the murderers is considered a murderer because during war he sent a man in a mission from which he couldn't possibly return alive. When he ends up on the island he's old and he's sort of paranoid. It fits with Eva even if she ended up much worse than this.
Ange's accusation she was a murderer she would have stuck even harder due to this.

But well, again I'm theorizing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
While I like the idea of it being one of those stories, it looks like they might not fit in the package, at least if they used paper similar to the message bottles. Battler also says the gift is from Kinzou. It is the same package that Battler places next to Ange when he brings her to the parlor to sleep in chapter 9, right? Can you confirm that, haguruma?
Well, Haguruma said the package is of the size of
Quote:
a small PET-bottle
so yes, it should be smaller than the bottle in which Confession was.
Of course it can be that Tohya actually didn't put it in the same type of bottle Sayo used but on... let's say a tape in a small tape recorder.
Confession would fit as a present because in the meta when Ange jumped she had it but Twilight would as well because I'd like it if Ange got the chance to read it... even if it could entirely be that everything happened in her mind.

But yes, technically the present should be from Kinzo. It would be interesting though if like Sayo disguised herself as Maria, Tohya, when sending Ange that present, disguised himself as Kinzo, whom he resembled really a lot, especially in his Tohya form.
In a way that could have put Ange over the edge litterally as getting a present from your deceased grandfather (in Ange's time they know that Kinzo died in 1984) might upset you...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
I wouldn't say they are all canon either, exactly, but most of them do connect to the main story somehow, so they are not called TIPS for nothing. For example, Memoirs of Lambdadelta is confirmed as canon as it basically happens in Confession of the Golden Witch. Then there is Jessica's Mother's Day Present where it is revealed that Natsuhi got to give birth to Jessica in exchange for the headaches in a deal with Zepar and Furfur. I think in terms of what actually happened Natsuhi's headaches are a result of the supressed memory of causing Lion's accident. Natsuhi was only able to give birth to a child of her own by abandoning the unknown child entrusted to her. Jessica does exist as Lion's little sister too, however, so my interpretation might be a little off. But basically little things like that can be inferred from the extra TIPS.
I don't think your interpretation is that off from truth although I see it more as a psychological thing. Natsuhi feels guilty for Lion's 'death' but probably sees it also as something that's connected to Jessica's birth. She claims demons and angels fulfilled her wish giving her a child and causing the other to disappear but she knows she caused the 'demise' of Lion. Yet because Lion is no more Jessica is the heir, nest in line after Krauss.
Her complicate feelings likely translated in her suffering in even stronger migraines of the ones she was used at (it's also said that her migraines were an inborn condition) but accepting them because she believed that what she did benefitted Jessica.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
It would match with Hanyuu, while Bern and Featherine on the other hand appear to have some kind of love-hate relationship. They enjoy drinking tea as fellow monsters at least. I agree it's a little confusing. Perhaps Ryuukishi intended Featherine's personality to be more in line with Hanyuu originally? Or, as Bernkastel says she has exactly zero friends in EP8, she isn't writing letters to anyone in particular.
I'll fear we'll never know but yes, if I were to make a guess it would be that Featherine in the beginning was supposed to be different and the same applies for their relation and for the manner in which Featherine was supposed to appear in the story.
That is or there was another character that got scrapped out.
After all we know that Umineko underwent many changes from the original plan so it wouldn't be surprising if this was just one of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
Yes, Bern preparing Ange to become her piece was my original idea too before I thought about the possibility of her knowing Battler survived. Well, as she says she didn't find a fragment where Battler survived, she probably doesn't count Touya as a surviving Battler either, which isn't exactly a lie.
In truth we'll need to know if she figured out that Tohya was Battler. Even if Ikuko's kitten, Bern lives with them, Bern the witch seems to have been travelling quite a bit instead than residing in just one place so... no idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
The thing about ocean currents does kind of sound like Ryuukishi regrets not explaining about ocean currents in relation to Rokkenjima, which could have given people ideas about where the message bottles went, how someone might have survived etc. However, Beatrice actually says that only two of her message bottles reached the shore in EP8. Also, it definitely appears that the majority thinks Itouikukuro Reigonamu wrote the forgeries instead of them being thought of as actual message bottles, so my point about dishonesty stands. Well, Ikuko and Touya could have tried to tell that they're actual message bottles but no one believed them, so it might not be their fault. But I think Beatrice would know if Banquet and Alliance reached the shore in addition to Legend and Turn.
What I was trying to say is that they took the alias Itouikukuro Reigonamu not to represent themselves but Sayo. They got her that alias and posted her tales under that alias.
In a way it makes sense. Ikuko and Tohya are a duo that writes under Tohya's name likely to hide Ikuko's involvement but Tohya's name isn't his own and the surname is Ikuko's so in a way Hachijo Tohya hides also Tohya's true identity.
They applied an extra layer to it and used it to hide Sayo's identity as well, making her the third member of their writing group.
Dawn isn't released so it's not like they're trying to take advantage of the success of the first two to release it and... I've no idea about End.
End is pretty bizzarre and Beatrice doesn't acknowledge it as her own (after all it's Lambda's game).

My take is that 'reaching the shore' meant they were found and given to the press. Of course it could also be that Tohya and Ikuko found Banquet and Alliance while having a trip near the coast in a boat... but what I tend to think is that she meant is just that they were given to the public.
Beatrice claims authorship for those two, they're not only in Confession when she thinks at her possibilities but also when she confront Battler earlier on about how she wrote game after game trying to think to a game that would satisfy her.

But well, regardless of them writing them using Confession or them finding them I think the goal was to spread them without at the same time raise too much noise on them and mixing them to the other tales in the net would have probably worked better. Also, in a way, this would have made Beatrice sort of alive again as she could post her own tales and challenge the others to realize who she was.

Last but not least one of those tales pinned the blame on Eva. Releasing it as a message in the bottle would increase suspicions on Eva while the fact that the two previous messages shifted the blame away from her was working in Eva's favour.

But well, maybe I'm reading too much into it. the manga is really changing quite a lot of things so it might end up clearing up if the tales come from somewhere but instead than being handed to the press (and the police)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
Ikuko says that the man that appeared in the book-signing event instead of her was "a scapegoat arranged by my editor". This might not actually mean anything, but what if Touya's role in writing the stories was similar to that of an editor?

The final form of the forgery was probably decided by Ikuko, as she actually wrote everything down and could add her own flavors and hints. Touya probably contributed a lot to the work with an insider perspective, will to explore the good sides of his family and alternate theories Ikuko already having reached the truth couldn't provide.
LOL, my pet head canon is that Battler worked as editor for a school mystery magazine and also wrote into it so I'd like for him to be an editor but still I think for this to work he should know what he's working with otherwise his help is really too small.

He's described as having talented for mysteries of the unortodox type and that he "tried turning famous mysteries from across the world on their head, twisting those ideas into something new." so he seems more like the person that helps with mystery than the person that helps with characterization... and if you consider even if we assume he remembered his past he hadn't been seeing most of his family for 6 years and didn't know the 'inside working' of Rokkenjima that well he can't really help much with characterizations and details.
If things went as in the Teaparty he didn't even get to explore much the place so he might not remember there's a storage room for gardening tools or how's the servant room or where the keys are kept and if they've tags or not, if they're recognizable or not, if there's a closed well or not.

Tohya says that

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Thanks to Ikuko's writing, a skill she had built up over many years, my ideas were transformed into a work of fiction.
In this work, 'the Strange Tale of Beatnik Island', the two of us merged the best of our respective personalities, ......and, though I hate to brag, it had turned into a masterpiece that we could show to anyone without shame.
and considering Ikuko claimed the plot came from him I'll say Tohya's contribute was pretty big. But what could he do in the forgeries if he doesn't know the culprit?
He can't offer tricks, as they require knowing the culprit, he can't really offer a good characterization as it requires knowing well the characters.
The best he could do is to say 'I didn't guess who the culprit is' but this might not necessarily say that the mistery was good as the same can happen if the mistery is poorly written and hints aren't enough or too misleading.

That's why I prefer to think they found two more messages... and then, when they couldn't find them anymore Ikuko tried writing one on her own but it turned out messy because he refused to help and Ikuko, not being Sayo, ended up making Sayo OOC. But well, this still doesn't work well because it assumes she either hadn't read Confession or hadn't understood it even if it spelled out the motive rather clearly.

That is or she had a reason to change the motive. After all she discussed about motives with Tohya... but I fear I've too little material to come up with a convincing answer, expecially since there's really too few info about Ikuko and her character.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
Perhaps you are not misunderstanding as much as you think, but my theory just is as confusing as it sounds. It seems to be in constant progress, and I already got better ideas answering your post just now. Umineko just keeps throwing my thinking around, it's incredible like that.
Oh, okay. I was feeling quite lost. And yes Umineko is incredible. I've seen many awesome theories and sometimes it's a real pity to see that one gets denied.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
Now I believe Ikuko reading Confession makes more sense than she not reading it.
Same here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
In EP6 Ikuko says that she is confident that she has reached the truth because she has "completely understood all the stories". Just because she reads Confession doesn't mean she has reached the truth, she also has to understand all the stories as she said. Ikuko read Legend and Turn first and created theories about them. After Ikuko found Confession and read it, she went back to Legend and Turn, understood how everything connected together and became someone capable of creating forgeries in Beatrice's name and using the red truth.
Yes, I more or less agree. She saw the messages, theorized about them, read Confession, went through them again and solved them.
In a way it's sort of unfair (everyone can solve them with Confession) but it makes sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
Touya didn't read Confession, either because he wanted to solve it himself or because it would cause him physical harm.
I'll prefer it's because he wanted to solve them himself because otherwise I think puzzling other the forgeries would cause him more harm than Confession.
Though if Ikuko figured out he's Battler she might feel that, as a act of kindness toward Sayo, it would be nicer toward her to let him solve the stories instead than handing him the solution.
After all she wanted him to solve them. So I like to think Ikuko took advantage of the fact Tohya might not remember well about her having found Confession for causing Confession to temporally disappear. By the time of Ep 7 he finally solved everything and she finally let him read it... so in a way Confession is Clair and Tohya is Will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
EP5's creation is still a bit weird. You could think of it as purely Lambdadelta's creation in the meta world, but Ange claims to have read an End of the Golden Witch written by Itouikukuro. Is it indeed Ikuko peeking into the meta world and writing down Lambda and Bern's game? I like to believe Lambdadelta and Bernkastel can act autonomously from Featherine, but could it be that everything is controlled by Ikuko's thought processes when writing End so that the meta world version ends up following? Which would make EP5 a result of Featherine actively using her power as the creator. In the end everything is basically written by Featherine, but the creation of End would be the only point where this is apparent in addition to Lambda's death, which is a bit strange. You could call it cheating too. Can you understand what I'm getting at?
I wonder if actually in Prime Ep 5 is nothing else but someone else writing a forgery using Itouikukuro's nick because he's famous. After all Ep 5 is pretty different from the other tales. Not only it gets interrupted midway but has an OOC Sayo and a different detective.
To use Erika's words maybe it was a third rate mistery written by a nobody under Itouikukuro's nick.
And the "real" Itouikukuro might have answered it by rewriting it in a better way so as to prove the other was a fake ence the two solutions.
But again, we don't really know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
I have also suspected that Virgilia could be a higher witch than one would expect for some time now. Perhaps she is actually born from the Virgilius of Divina Commedia and possibly a voyager witch? Or because she was also called Beatrice at one point, maybe she represents the Divina Commedia as a whole?
Well, Virgilia, Beatrice and Clair all take names from the Divina Commedia.

Also this is one of the variants of the arms of the Alighieri family. Does it ring a bell? ^_-

Also there's the whole idea that Beatrice sits atop the purgatory, the seven sins, Virgilius leading Dante/Battler through hell to Beatrice, the rose simbolism can be tied to the rose in heaven in the DC, and by the way Dante means 'lasting' 'durable' which fits for Battler's character.
Kyrie (whose name can be seen also as a reference at the Kyrie eleison) and Maria can also work as reference as well as Ange (someone in the past also said that Asumu had some religious meaning but I can't remember it).
A Rodolfo (Rudolf) and a Nicolò (Krauss might actually be Klaus that's the short for Nicholas in Italian Nicolò) also shows up in the Divina Commedia and the same applies for Eva.

LOL, reading Umineko fills me with wish to re-read the Divina Commedia in search of references.
Even the goats attempting to eat who lose and then the golden land reminds me of Lucifer eating the sinners at the end of the Hell. And hey, the purgatory is an island like Rokkenjima... though it's also a mount while Rokkenjima seems flat... but well hell is underground and the room of the gold where the siblings kill each other is underground... and Rokkenjima is covered by woods like the woods in which Dante got lost... and by the way, Rosa got lost in the woods...
And on the door of hell there was a writing same as on the door of the church that leads the way to the room of the gold/hell.

And what about the lynx (allegory of lust), the lion (pride) and a wolf (greed)?
Lust and greed are tied to Rudolf (by the way in the beginning Kinzo said to his kids that in the woods there were wolves... and Rudolf wanted to hunt them) and pride and greed to Kyrie (also we've the Lion's statue and... well, Lion). They cause Dante to fall from a cliff... and Virgilio says they'll be killed by a hunting dog (Eva?).

LOL, someone please stop me, I'm likely seeing too much in what are very likely only coincidences... like how the Castiglione also show up in the DC...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
Concerning the future world, here are some questions I would like to ask:

So does this mean that in the manga, the trick ending still happened but in a different timeline?
I'll say it's more like Ange figured she would reach this ending if she were to follow a certain path.

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Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
So pretty much there are multiple Anges?
Well, it was said right in Ep 4 we have multiple Anges in a way. One is AngeBeatrice who's in the Meta, the other is the Ange that goes on Rokkenjima and dies there. Then we can add to the count the Ange that tossed herself off the building and wasn't saved by the safety net, the Ange of the trick ending and the Ange of the magic ending.

But I think that what the manga wanted to suggest is that Ange speculates on her possible fate and in her mind depicted all those Anges and ultimately decided to take the path that would lead her to become the last one.
But I'll give a definitive answer after I've seen the manga.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
Either way does this mean that Ange definitely dies in 1998 where in the trick timeline she was more or less missing and could have possibly died through some unknown means (e.g. died of starvation, lost at sea, or even went at Rokkenjima and got killed by her aunt and the Yakuza) and in the magic timeline, through Okonogi's help, she was able to fake her death in the same way that Okonogi faked Takano Miyo's death?
I think the manga is trying to imply the trick ending was a possibility that never happened but yes, if that possibility were to happen Ange would have just disappeared.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
Also, does the event where Ikuko trolls everyone by revealing the truth takes place in both timelines AFTER Ange faked her death (magic timeline) or really died (trick timeline). Because it seems to me that after Ange read Eva's diary, she died, either on the building (magic timeline) or at sea (trick timeline). Then afterwards, the nurse collected the diary and had it sent to Ikuko. When would Ange in the real world would have read CotGW?
We speculated that Confession was sent to her by Tohya while Ange found Eva's diary and read it but forgot it in her room.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
If this is the case, then this would account as to why Ikuko was able to say red truth in the real world, since red truth is apparently a witch's words in the VN when Ange read Eva's diary.
I'll say more that when red truth is used in what looks like the real world is likely a hint we're in a story as it's said over and over that red truth in the real world doesn't exist but this might be just me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
Concerning Ange and Erika:

Could it be that the real Erika Furudo is not actually a mystery fan? Could the Erika we know be a sort of avatar of Ange's to try and solve the forgeries? Yes, Erika is Bernkastel's piece, but is it possible that in the meta-sense, Erika and Ange could have been perceived as separate but on one body? Could it be that at some point after Ange killed her fantasy friends, she took it upon herself to try and solve some forgeries using Knox's Decalogue? Could Dlanor be a sort of replacement for Mammon, with Ange going from fantasy to mystery? Because it seems like after killing her imaginary friends is when she stopped believing in fantasy, which is similar to Erika in the sense that they don't believe in magic. Also, in EP6, Erika literally called Dlanor PAPER, which could mean that Dlanor is a piece of paper (or if Ange is somewhat connected to Erika a page in the grimoire) in which Knox's Decalogue is written on it?
It could be. We know that a real Erika existed at one point and died in 1986 but we know next to nothing about her. Of course people in Prime might know more as they might have speculated about her but well... I think that it's possible that Ange saw herself in Erika. After all as I said previously they really did put lot of parallelism between them.

Last edited by jjblue1; 2015-03-22 at 19:18.
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Old 2015-03-23, 02:35   Link #35002
Bluemail
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Finland
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
We were asking ourselves how beato died. And I thought she might have died of blood-loss. This is most probably wrong. Because its clearly stated in umineko who killed beato- for that we have the whole 7th episode -the result was: Only the one who created Beato could have killed her. It was not kyrie, not eva, nobody but “Sayo” herself. There is also a big hint we all probably didn’t pay much attention to:

In episode 4, once Battler says - as an answer to Beatos test - that he absolutely cant remember anything about a sin, in the VN there are two beatos who talk to each other. The first one is giving up and the other one is taking on the job. While the first one seems to be on the verge of tears and lets the 2nd beato take over, the 2nd beato is far more cruel – she immediately burns kinzo alive and threatens all the other furniture. Shes achieving her goal in a much rougher way – or better: has given up on the original goal to make battler remember.
Keep in mind the Beatrice on Prime isn't exactly just the character Beatrice. Only Sayo is able to kill just the character, but she herself can be killed by anyone. Beatrice then just dies with her, as her mind cannot maintain the character anymore, Sayo gives up shortly before dying or Beatrice already died when the siblings solved the epitaph and she lost the game. It's something like that. I don't believe what's said in EP7 prevents Sayo from being killed by Kyrie, it's more about the rules of her game board.

I think the two Beatrices that talk on the balcony represent the character Beatrice and Sayo herself, the true person behind the crime. Sayo is devastated when Battler cannot remember his promise, and the character Beatrice takes over and carries the game to its conclusion.

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Again – what is the “trauma”? Must be something similar to what happened in ep 6. Now I really do not want to spell it out, but whoever has seen the scene with the ring in ep 6 cant tell me he didn’t feel the HEAVY sexual implications this had. I mean the manga even drew the pictures accordingly. this is NOT me being a pervert or something, Im just a normal adult that happens to think like this once something like that is shown. It’s a perfectly normal – and I assume intended – association. If someone is putting saliva on something to make something “stick in” more easily, I cant help but think we’re talking about something completely different here, not just a ring and a finger. I don’t want to spell it out. there exists a torture device, a ring, that does exactly that and works in the way erika described it in the wedding. it looks like the ring erika gives him with the spikes on the inside and also looks something like the "ring" in the picture we see in manga ep 4 of the room under the kuwadorian, and in reality its fastened with a screw, the same way as erika uses the diamond of the ring to drive the spikes into his finger. if you want to know, google it and imagine the rest yourself please…i wont describe it any more...
What if all this alludes to Kuwadorian Beatrice and the state of Sayo's body instead of something that happened to Battler? It could also be a twisted version of the engagement plans between Sayo and George. George corners Sayo with a time limit when he plans to give her a ring. Perhaps Sayo imagined George's true personality might at worst be something like Erika in EP6.

While it is peculiar that Touya feels older than he should, it might just be psychological. Here are some of the problems I see with your theory. One, it basically makes Battler go through the meta story twice for no reason, if he again loses his memory after solving the game on the island. Two, even if Eva was rescued from Kuwadorian, they never found Battler. It's true it might not be that simple to find the underground area, but still. Three, Beatrice lost the game when the siblings solved the epitaph. Four, Beatrice was probably at least wounded so she might not have survived for that long. It is also said in red that Beatrice died in October of 1986. Five, it is heavily implied that Battler did not solve the game before Beatrice died, so she couldn't be the one to let him out of the room. Six, what would Battler eat to live that long in a cell? I guess it's devil proof that there is a massive food storage in Kuwadorian, but no one really even uses the place any more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
Also, does the event where Ikuko trolls everyone by revealing the truth takes place in both timelines AFTER Ange faked her death (magic timeline) or really died (trick timeline). Because it seems to me that after Ange read Eva's diary, she died, either on the building (magic timeline) or at sea (trick timeline). Then afterwards, the nurse collected the diary and had it sent to Ikuko. When would Ange in the real world would have read CotGW?
I think the event where Ikuko was supposed to reveal the contents of Ange's diary happens after Ange's "death", as Ikuko could only get the book after Eva died in 1998 and Ange shortly after. It probably happens in all the timelines. About Confession, I don't believe Ange ever actually read it as it didn't happen in the visual novel and the information just came to her through the meta world in the manga.

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If this is the case, then this would account as to why Ikuko was able to say red truth in the real world, since red truth is apparently a witch's words in the VN when Ange read Eva's diary.
This is indeed one of the reasons I believe Ikuko is actually a witch.

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Could it be that the real Erika Furudo is not actually a mystery fan? Could the Erika we know be a sort of avatar of Ange's to try and solve the forgeries? Yes, Erika is Bernkastel's piece, but is it possible that in the meta-sense, Erika and Ange could have been perceived as separate but on one body? Could it be that at some point after Ange killed her fantasy friends, she took it upon herself to try and solve some forgeries using Knox's Decalogue? Could Dlanor be a sort of replacement for Mammon, with Ange going from fantasy to mystery? Because it seems like after killing her imaginary friends is when she stopped believing in fantasy, which is similar to Erika in the sense that they don't believe in magic. Also, in EP6, Erika literally called Dlanor PAPER, which could mean that Dlanor is a piece of paper (or if Ange is somewhat connected to Erika a page in the grimoire) in which Knox's Decalogue is written on it?
I've been thinking about this as well, but it might just be that they were written similar for thematical reasons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Well, I've always thought the diary would be a little self absolving.
In the diary she can write that Natsuhi was killed by incident and the same happened to Krauss and that she got rid of Kyrie and Rudolf because they were murderers who tried to kill her and would have tried to do so again so she's sort of telling herself it was self defence and she blasted the island away because she didn't want Ange to find out the horrible stuffs her parents did but if she forced Battler to leave the island while there was a storm because she refused to take Sayo with them and they didn't make it... then it's murder without any excuse.

It would tie nicely with Ep 3 in which Eva shot Battler.

She would have forced him to take a decision that, she knew, was suicidal, and all to cover up her own crime. She might have told him 'if we carry with us a girl that has a bullet wound we won't be able to cover this anymore and your sister will know what your parents did' and he might have agreed that in order to cover up things he would have to find another way to bring Sayo to safety and therefore we'll have them agreeing to keep everything hidden and 'closing the door' but well... I think she would have known that the other way was so dangerous it was almost suicide and that covering up the truth for Ange wouldn't be worth her brother's life.

In "10 little indians" one of the murderers is considered a murderer because during war he sent a man in a mission from which he couldn't possibly return alive. When he ends up on the island he's old and he's sort of paranoid. It fits with Eva even if she ended up much worse than this.
Ange's accusation she was a murderer she would have stuck even harder due to this.
It's possible. Eva could write it in that manner to feel a bit better about herself. White magic for herself or more like black magic for shifting most of the blame to others? Eva seems to act as the embodiment of the black witch, after all. I also like it metaphorically tying into Eva shooting Battler in EP3, because that's a thing I've been trying to incorporate into Prime myself. The reference to And then there were none is a good catch too.

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I don't think your interpretation is that off from truth although I see it more as a psychological thing. Natsuhi feels guilty for Lion's 'death' but probably sees it also as something that's connected to Jessica's birth. She claims demons and angels fulfilled her wish giving her a child and causing the other to disappear but she knows she caused the 'demise' of Lion. Yet because Lion is no more Jessica is the heir, nest in line after Krauss.
Her complicate feelings likely translated in her suffering in even stronger migraines of the ones she was used at (it's also said that her migraines were an inborn condition) but accepting them because she believed that what she did benefitted Jessica.
Yes, it's definitely psychological. No way it's a deal with demons, right? That'd be silly.
It's true that "her own biological child could not have become the heir if she had accepted Lion" might factor into it.

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What I was trying to say is that they took the alias Itouikukuro Reigonamu not to represent themselves but Sayo. They got her that alias and posted her tales under that alias.

End is pretty bizzarre and Beatrice doesn't acknowledge it as her own (after all it's Lambda's game).

That's why I prefer to think they found two more messages... and then, when they couldn't find them anymore Ikuko tried writing one on her own but it turned out messy because he refused to help and Ikuko, not being Sayo, ended up making Sayo OOC. But well, this still doesn't work well because it assumes she either hadn't read Confession or hadn't understood it even if it spelled out the motive rather clearly.
End actually does represent Sayo, if in a twisted fashion. It still follows the rules of her games, but focuses the motive on the origin of her misfortune. Remember that Lambdadelta actually does know the truth about Beatrice, which would mean Ikuko writing End would know too. Sayo is the man from 19 years ago, and we see that Lambdadelta, the creator of this game board, poses as him behind the phone. It could be said that it is Sayo's game, but not Beatrice's, as the game doesn't care about the trial of love. I think Ikuko was having fun twisting the setting a bit and adding a more active detective, but did not break the rules.

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I'll prefer it's because he wanted to solve them himself because otherwise I think puzzling other the forgeries would cause him more harm than Confession.
Though if Ikuko figured out he's Battler she might feel that, as a act of kindness toward Sayo, it would be nicer toward her to let him solve the stories instead than handing him the solution.
After all she wanted him to solve them. So I like to think Ikuko took advantage of the fact Tohya might not remember well about her having found Confession for causing Confession to temporally disappear. By the time of Ep 7 he finally solved everything and she finally let him read it... so in a way Confession is Clair and Tohya is Will.
I meant that getting all of the truth at once would hurt him, but that he could endure it if they went at it slowly writing the forgeries. I'm a supporter of the idea that Will represents Touya. He has that streak of red hair connecting him to Battler, while still being a stranger because he isn't Battler anymore. Clair I take is a combination of the confession hidden in each message bottle and that would naturally connect her to Confession of the Golden Witch as well. I'm not sure if Touya would forget that Ikuko has the Confession bottle, maybe it even made him more confident that Ikuko does have the correct truth. The issue of if Beatrice can be trusted is brought up several times, and it could stem from the question "are those red pages really written by Beatrice?".

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I wonder if actually in Prime Ep 5 is nothing else but someone else writing a forgery using Itouikukuro's nick because he's famous. After all Ep 5 is pretty different from the other tales. Not only it gets interrupted midway but has an OOC Sayo and a different detective.
To use Erika's words maybe it was a third rate mistery written by a nobody under Itouikukuro's nick.
And the "real" Itouikukuro might have answered it by rewriting it in a better way so as to prove the other was a fake ence the two solutions.
But again, we don't really know.
It's possible, but I believe the misinterpretations would come from Bernkastel's side, as Lambda did actually know the truth all along. I think Ikuko wrote it to near the end of the trial and Touya finished it with a theory scapegoating Battler.

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LOL, someone please stop me, I'm likely seeing too much in what are very likely only coincidences... like how the Castiglione also show up in the DC...
I'm pretty sure all the names are taken from it intentionally, how the events relate to Umineko is up to interpretation in most places. Reminds me that I actually need to read it as I have been planning to for some time, it might give me interesting ideas.

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I'll say more that when red truth is used in what looks like the real world is likely a hint we're in a story as it's said over and over that red truth in the real world doesn't exist but this might be just me.
I think Ikuko could actually speak the red in the real world, as it is not literally a real world, but a world close to a real world created by Ryuukishi-Featherine. What Ikuko speaks in the convention is the literal word of god if it existed in our world. Of course it could also represent the audience's absolute trust in Hachijou Touya's expertise.
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Old 2015-03-23, 04:49   Link #35003
Leslie Chow
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I think Ikuko wrote it to near the end of the trial and Touya finished it with a theory scapegoating Battler.
If you are correct on this one, then a connection could be made as to why Black Battler knows about Tohya in Forgery XXX and why his alternate color scheme in Ougon Musou Kyoku CROSS is that of Tohya. It is interesting to note that Black Battler uses black truth and why he says in his ulti "I'll fill everything up with thousands of black forgeries". Could this mean that black truth is black text, since he is the author? Since when you type texts, they tend to be black in color. Also because it is black text, doesn't it show that he does not care about mystery or fantasy (probably meaning having no regard to colored truths, even though Virgilia said Battler is not the culprit in red), since in Ougon, he doesn't seem to reject or accept what is fiction or what is real and is just there to be the "culprit". Heck even the fantasy characters are afraid of him.
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Old 2015-03-23, 10:38   Link #35004
Bluemail
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Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
If you are correct on this one, then a connection could be made as to why Black Battler knows about Tohya in Forgery XXX and why his alternate color scheme in Ougon Musou Kyoku CROSS is that of Tohya. It is interesting to note that Black Battler uses black truth and why he says in his ulti "I'll fill everything up with thousands of black forgeries". Could this mean that black truth is black text, since he is the author? Since when you type texts, they tend to be black in color. Also because it is black text, doesn't it show that he does not care about mystery or fantasy (probably meaning having no regard to colored truths, even though Virgilia said Battler is not the culprit in red), since in Ougon, he doesn't seem to reject or accept what is fiction or what is real and is just there to be the "culprit". Heck even the fantasy characters are afraid of him.
It's very possible black truth is a reference to written text, but not only Touya's text. Black truth might also be a twisted version of golden truth. They both can overpower other truths, but while golden truth is born of understanding, black truth ignores everything that goes against it, a truth that ignores the heart.

Touya might have strenghtened him with EP5, but he does not control Black Battler, who is a combination of Battlers from all the forgeries that pin him as the culprit. In Forgery no.xxx Black Battler implies he quickly tires of game boards that do not establish "a Battler that can be the culprit", but if someone creates a game board that does, it will surely be forgiven. Because there is room to establish a Battler that can be the culprit, Touya will be eternally tormented by theories that make "him" the culprit and go further away from Beatrice's heart, also strenghtening Beatrice's existence as a heartless witch.

I'd say an ever-strenghtening Black Rosa that can use black truth was also born at some point as a combination of all the Rosatrice theories, and Ryuukishi is trying to weaken her and similar entities with the EP8 manga with Confession of the Golden Witch and other additions. In the manga, the battle for the Golden Land involves black versions of the characters and Black Battler is actually killed with a red truth from Beatrice that says Ushiromiya Battler is not the culprit.


Reading haguruma's translation of an older chapter, I found Lambdadelta's thoughts about Featherine:

"Featherine Augustus Aurora... The legendary Great Witch. She is on the level of a Creator within the world of the witches, a witch who has arrived in domains forbidden to touch. She once died of the illness of boredom that kills witches, but with the help of the witch she keeps as a cat, Bern, she was reborn... So, just like we witches look down on humans from a higher sphere and ridicule them as mere pieces, she laughs at and looks down upon even the realm of us witches from an even higher world...!! A witch returned to life from the kingdom of gods....!! I can “certainly” not win..."

It says she was reborn because of Bern, which I think was through the letter that invited her to take a look at Beatrice's game. It also seems to establish the world of witches as the highest realm before the realm of gods. I'm not sure if it refers to Prime as a realm everything originates from, or if it references our world directly, but my interpretation is the latter.

1. Our world / Realm of gods - Creators, Theatergoers
1.5 World of witches / The sea of fragments - Great Witches, Voyagers
2. Rokkenjima Prime - Humans
2.5 Purgatory and the Golden Land- Ideas, Fictional beings
3. Game Boards - Pieces

1, 2 and 3 are physical realms.
1.5 and 2.5 are metaphysical realms.
Oblivion is the state of not existing anywhere.

I'm basing this hierarchy on how information flows between them. Something lower in the hierarchy cannot know what happens in a higher realm unless a being from a higher realm decides to share their knowledge. For example, humans cannot know their future, but it is possible for voyagers to find a fragment that shows what happens to that human in the future.

Individuals can freely move up and down up to their level of their existence. A higher being can promote a lower being up to their own level. Metaphysical beings need a medium, a vessel, to interact with a physical realm. A great witch can use a human as their vessel by affecting their thoughts, a human can promote a fictional being to a human by acting as them.

Higher beings have the ability to create fragments containing lower physical realms. A creator can create a fragment, a human can write a story. The process affects the metaphysical realm between, making it reflect the creation process.

Of course a piece on a game board can also write a story. It would create a fragment on physical realm 4, affecting metaphysical realm 3.5. And if we suppose gods exist in our world, they exist as metaphysical beings on level 0.5, and physically on level 0. It can expand infinitely in both directions.

Physical realm does not mean fantasy cannot exist in it. If the world is set up to be fantasy, fantasy creatures can physically exist in it. If it is mystery, they cannot. On a mystery game board fantasy creatures need sufficient vessels to act, but they can be shown as physically existing until the game board is established as a mystery.

What this means in practice: Ryuukishi creates Rokkenjima Prime in the realm of gods. The creation of Rokkenjima Prime means all the events that happened, are happening and will happen in that world. This predetermines the events that will happen in the world of witches. If Bernkastel is supposed to have anything to do with that fragment, as she does, her actions will be commanded by the creation of this fragment. When Ryuukishi wishes to participate in the world as Ikuko, Featherine revives as his avatar in the world of witches.

In Rokkenjima Prime, Sayo imagines Beatrice existence and thus creates a version of her on the level of ideas, that combines with ideas other people have of this Beatrice. She promotes this Beatrice to a human by acting like her, strenghtening her existence by making more people believe in her. She writes game boards that claim Beatrice exist that are read by many people and it again affects the character of Beatrice on the level of ideas. Because she makes the true events of the time period she claims Beatrice existed in a catbox, it is harder for people to weaken her. The catbox creates a container that makes it appear as if the events of the game board and the Golden Land existed on the level of humans.

Higurashi's fragments exist on the same level as Rokkenjima Prime, as a new one was created by Hanyuu every time Rika died and time was rewound. It's also possible Featherine created new fragments detailing Ange's different futures, but it's more likely that these fragments exist on a lower plane instead.
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Old 2015-03-23, 16:39   Link #35005
AuraTwilight
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Speaking of Black Battler, an interesting facet of his character I don't see much discussion on is how similar to eva-Beatrice he really is. In his story mode in Ougon Musou Cross, he's paired up with Shannon, and all his dialog and behavior is about taking the blame and going out of his way to assure Shannon that 'she's blameless' and he 'won't let anyone blame her', telling her to just sit quietly and do whatever he commands, before he finally kills her at the end, saving her for last.

Despite laughing while carrying Shannon's dead body, his maniacal laughter clearly dissolves into near sobbing as he declares himself the culprit...

Despite everything, Black Battler is still a character that loves Yasuda Sayo. He can only express that love in a single form...

Tohya Hachijou isn't the only one writing about Black Battler, but I do think he might have provided the original spark with episode 5, where Battler is unambiguously an accomplice atleast. Meta-Battler defeated Erika with an alternate human theory that exonerated Natsuhi, but we were not told what this was.

Did Tohya offer Battler on the altar of sins to exonerate another? In so doing, did he come to regret it, and was unable to seal the pandora's box he opened?

What is the key, unifying trend between all the Beatrices? It is to martyr oneself to take the sins and blame off of another person.
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Old 2015-03-23, 17:13   Link #35006
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
It's possible. Eva could write it in that manner to feel a bit better about herself. White magic for herself or more like black magic for shifting most of the blame to others? Eva seems to act as the embodiment of the black witch, after all. I also like it metaphorically tying into Eva shooting Battler in EP3, because that's a thing I've been trying to incorporate into Prime myself. The reference to And then there were none is a good catch too.
Well, I'm not sure if we can call it black magic as it isn't meant to hurt anyone because no one is supposed to read the diary. Though I'm not even sure it can be called white magic even if in a way it resembles Maria's magic as everything would be repainted with an interpretation that's favourable to Eva (in Maria's magic everything was repainetd with an interpretation favourable to Rosa).

I've always liked the idea that Battler being shoot had to mean something more than just him dying on that gameboard. And in a way Battler gets killed again in Ep 6, by himself. So while in Ep 3 the blame is placed on Eva, who might have forced him to take a dangerous decision, in Ep 6 Battler places the blame on himself, as after all he was the one who decided.

But well, of course Battler's death might merely symbolically represent how Battler, by leaving the Ushiromiya, technically killed 'Ushiromiya Battler' temporally.
So maybe I'm just letting myself being carried away.

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Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
Yes, it's definitely psychological. No way it's a deal with demons, right? That'd be silly.
It's true that "her own biological child could not have become the heir if she had accepted Lion" might factor into it.
Yes, and for Natsuhi this is really, really important. In a way I think that she tells herself she killed Lion for Jessica but also that she means to take on herself the blame in order for her daughter to shine.

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Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
End actually does represent Sayo, if in a twisted fashion. It still follows the rules of her games, but focuses the motive on the origin of her misfortune. Remember that Lambdadelta actually does know the truth about Beatrice, which would mean Ikuko writing End would know too. Sayo is the man from 19 years ago, and we see that Lambdadelta, the creator of this game board, poses as him behind the phone. It could be said that it is Sayo's game, but not Beatrice's, as the game doesn't care about the trial of love. I think Ikuko was having fun twisting the setting a bit and adding a more active detective, but did not break the rules.
End is a game that lacks love. By changing Sayo's motive we can say she's OOC (not totally OOC as she resents Natsuhi but not to the point of starting everything) in a way that's similar to Black Battler (who's probably more OOC than her as if he starts murdering without a motive he's just a raving lunatic which Battler wasn't... even if something of Battler remains even in BB).
So yes, while End shows a certain knowledge of who the culprit was and how it worked it also shows it didn't understand it at all.
I think that it fits Lambda, as Lambda looks like the person who would think revenge is a good motive (even though Lambda can be a romantic as well) but it fail as a good intepretation of the motive.

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Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
I meant that getting all of the truth at once would hurt him, but that he could endure it if they went at it slowly writing the forgeries.
I don't know, the forgeries requires thinking more than just reading the truth and can lead to outcomes that are even more unpleasant than the truth (es: when Battler learns he's not Asumu's child he ends up thinking he was a kid they picked up somewhere and therefore not even his father's child).
I understand that getting the truth in small doses would probably be better for him but the forgeries seems more harmful than just the truth so I think if the purpose is to spare him some pain they're going at it the wrong way.

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Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
I'm a supporter of the idea that Will represents Touya. He has that streak of red hair connecting him to Battler, while still being a stranger because he isn't Battler anymore.
YES! Same here!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
Clair I take is a combination of the confession hidden in each message bottle and that would naturally connect her to Confession of the Golden Witch as well. I'm not sure if Touya would forget that Ikuko has the Confession bottle, maybe it even made him more confident that Ikuko does have the correct truth. The issue of if Beatrice can be trusted is brought up several times, and it could stem from the question "are those red pages really written by Beatrice?".
Well, if we go by the manga he barely saw it. Ikuko tried to tell him about it but he fell asleep and didn't really got much. When he woke up again Ikuko started talking him about Rokkenjima but at the point she mention it he's starting to have flashbacks and then he faints so later on he might have completely removed how Ikuko told him about having Confession. And Ikuko might have thought it was Confession who casued him to faint so she might have let that topic drop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
It's possible, but I believe the misinterpretations would come from Bernkastel's side, as Lambda did actually know the truth all along. I think Ikuko wrote it to near the end of the trial and Touya finished it with a theory scapegoating Battler.
Oh, that's for sure, it's Bern the responsible but well, Bern sort of rewrote it as it dropped the idea that Kinzo was dead already to construct her theory and Lambda merely heard her out.

That's sort of why I wonder if actually there were two End, one which was poorly written and that's basically Bern's side version of the story (or if you prefer the version of a witch hunter) and one that's well written, respectful of all the rules and that's Lambda/Battler version of the story (or if you prefer Tohya's version of End).
But well, I don't think we'll ever get an answer to this speculation.

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Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
I think Ikuko could actually speak the red in the real world, as it is not literally a real world, but a world close to a real world created by Ryuukishi-Featherine. What Ikuko speaks in the convention is the literal word of god if it existed in our world. Of course it could also represent the audience's absolute trust in Hachijou Touya's expertise.
Well, I guess everyone can interpret the scene as preferred. As for me I just like to take it as a hint that's not the real world but the world of a tale. But your interpretation can't be denied as well.
LOL, I guess that scene is a catbox! ^_-

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Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
If you are correct on this one, then a connection could be made as to why Black Battler knows about Tohya in Forgery XXX and why his alternate color scheme in Ougon Musou Kyoku CROSS is that of Tohya. It is interesting to note that Black Battler uses black truth and why he says in his ulti "I'll fill everything up with thousands of black forgeries". Could this mean that black truth is black text, since he is the author? Since when you type texts, they tend to be black in color. Also because it is black text, doesn't it show that he does not care about mystery or fantasy (probably meaning having no regard to colored truths, even though Virgilia said Battler is not the culprit in red), since in Ougon, he doesn't seem to reject or accept what is fiction or what is real and is just there to be the "culprit". Heck even the fantasy characters are afraid of him.
I can't find the point in which Black Battler shows he knows Tohya. He seems to know only the witches that doesn't want to be bored.
Interesting enough he doesn't acknowledge End as one of the forgeries in which he had a role, talking only of Land, Trinity and Bern's game (which I guess is the one in Twilight).

Well, black truth can refer to black text but I think the overall meaning is that he won't offer theories (blue truth) certain (red truth) or beliefs (gold truth) but just a story, a series of fact those interpretation is subjective.

I might be wrong though.

(also I honestly would love to see more about BB as I find him very intriguing... *sigh* I wish Ryukishi were to release Land and Trinity...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Speaking of Black Battler, an interesting facet of his character I don't see much discussion on is how similar to eva-Beatrice he really is. In his story mode in Ougon Musou Cross, he's paired up with Shannon, and all his dialog and behavior is about taking the blame and going out of his way to assure Shannon that 'she's blameless' and he 'won't let anyone blame her', telling her to just sit quietly and do whatever he commands, before he finally kills her at the end, saving her for last.

Despite laughing while carrying Shannon's dead body, his maniacal laughter clearly dissolves into near sobbing as he declares himself the culprit...

Despite everything, Black Battler is still a character that loves Yasuda Sayo. He can only express that love in a single form...
Yes, even in forgery XXX he shows a certain care for Kanon

Quote:
Listen. Let's go, Kanon-kun. Or else you'll catch a cold.
and a twisted love for Beato

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“What a joke. ......if you were drawn to express yourself so joyfully, I might become your instrument as well.“
“...that might happen. ...after I heard it once, I will never forget your sound ever again. You were the most perfect violin. That sound, it was as if it was coming from heaven itself. ...but I can wait a little longer. Because it is something really, really important. ...because this is the one sound, that I have loved a long, long time and will love for all eternity.“
He says nothing about Shannon though, apart from wanting to slowly strangle her in front of George... but it seems strangling someone is considered an 'intimate act' among the murdering acts if this can make sense (and well it might be a reference to Ep 5 when Bern said he was slowly strangling Beato). Also killing her in front of George might have a meaning in a way... :P
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Old 2015-03-23, 17:34   Link #35007
Leslie Chow
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1. Our world / Realm of gods - Creators, Theatergoers
1.5 World of witches / The sea of fragments - Great Witches, Voyagers
2. Rokkenjima Prime - Humans
2.5 Purgatory and the Golden Land- Ideas, Fictional beings
3. Game Boards - Pieces

1, 2 and 3 are physical realms.
1.5 and 2.5 are metaphysical realms.
Oblivion is the state of not existing anywhere.
Keep up the good work Bluemail your meta-world interpretation sure is getting interesting!

Quote:
Despite everything, Black Battler is still a character that loves Yasuda Sayo. He can only express that love in a single form...
What is also interesting about Black Battler is that he clearly remembers his promise with Shannon if you play as him in a non-story mode arcade.

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I can't find the point in which Black Battler shows he knows Tohya. He seems to know only the witches that doesn't want to be bored.
If you search in Umineko Hane - Forgery no.xxx on Youtube, go at around time stamp 20:50 - 21:07, where he tries to tell Tohya indirectly, that even if he doesn't write any more forgeries, he would still exist, since there are people making theories pinning him as the culprit.

Man they should also release a PS3 version (or even a short OVA) of these additional tips. It would be great to hear Daisuke Ono's performance as Black Battler again, since he did a good job in Ougon Musou Kyoku CROSS.

Quote:
Well, black truth can refer to black text but I think the overall meaning is that he won't offer theories (blue truth) certain (red truth) or beliefs (gold truth) but just a story, a series of fact those interpretation is subjective.
He also says when he cancels his opponent's meta activation, that "No one can deny my existence".

Quote:
He says nothing about Shannon though, apart from wanting to slowly strangle her in front of George... but it seems strangling someone is considered an 'intimate act' among the murdering acts if this can make sense (and well it might be a reference to Ep 5 when Bern said he was slowly strangling Beato). Also killing her in front of George might have a meaning in a way... :P
He is NTR villain material. If you pair him up with Shannon and you encounter George in a non-story mode stage, he would even tell Shannon to finish off George before calling her a good girl for doing so.

Miscellaneous:
By the way, did anyone notice that Black Battler is probably bisexual? He says sexual innuendos to not only the female characters when he wins, but also to WILLARD H. WRIGHT OF ALL PEOPLE?!

Also does anyone remember that when Battler and co. asked Lambdadelta for help in EP8, she sighs and says something along the lines that she is a student and that she has cleaning duties? Could this mean that she is an avatar of a real person in the real world as well? (Man I sure am hoping that Lambda is actually Tohya and Ikuko's kid that has a fixation on their pet cat).
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Old 2015-03-23, 18:23   Link #35008
Inbuiltx9
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So many new interesting posts...

long post I apologize. But please read through it, I think I might convince you now.

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Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
Keep in mind the Beatrice on Prime isn't exactly just the character Beatrice. Only Sayo is able to kill just the character, but she herself can be killed by anyone. Beatrice then just dies with her, as her mind cannot maintain the character anymore, Sayo gives up shortly before dying or Beatrice already died when the siblings solved the epitaph and she lost the game. It's something like that. I don't believe what's said in EP7 prevents Sayo from being killed by Kyrie, it's more about the rules of her game board.
Possibe, for sure. Its possible that Sayo was killed and beato died with her. But then the question "who killed beato?" would have been answered a bit different, dont you think? No point in answering that question with sayo if sayo didnt do it on purpose. While i wont deny the possibility, I still think ep 4 is giving us a clue how this looked like when beato left the job to someone else after she gave up...

Quote:

I think the two Beatrices that talk on the balcony represent the character Beatrice and Sayo herself, the true person behind the crime. Sayo is devastated when Battler cannot remember his promise, and the character Beatrice takes over and carries the game to its conclusion.
Hehe, our analysis is amost the same but I think its beato that gives up and its sayo that takes over. because it was primarily beato that loved battler. this answers your red truth you later mention "beato died in october 1986". also, it fits with: "who killed beatrice?"

Quote:
What if all this alludes to Kuwadorian Beatrice and the state of Sayo's body instead of something that happened to Battler? It could also be a twisted version of the engagement plans between Sayo and George. George corners Sayo with a time limit when he plans to give her a ring. Perhaps Sayo imagined George's true personality might at worst be something like Erika in EP6.
Did you take a look at this thing? I really dont want to shock you here, because I find it quite disturbing myself.
So for the next link..., please click on it only if youre ok with stuff like that and if you're over 18. ("erikas" (sayos) is "custom made" though. smaller and not removable like this one...)
http://www.neatorama.com/2006/12/20/...et-dream-ring/

I dont want to say its not possible for erikas ring to refer to another ring, but...honestly, this is like 100% what erika is talking about during the wedding. I find it really really hard to believe that they are talking about anything else. (sorry, again, its not like I really want this to be true, its just that I absolutely cannot think otherwise :S)
its so obvious what the scene in meta is hinting at...: (I almost dont dare to send the link in this context)
http://mangafox.me/manga/umineko_no_...5/c021/45.html


This is one of the manga scenes Im talking about:
http://mangafox.me/manga/umineko_no_...4/c015/38.html (ring is "warped" like everything in the meta is a warped element of prime)

Id like to quote the vn about the room now too, cause this explains it faar better than the manga, but that is too much text :P you know what part Im talking about anyways.

Really, this thing cant effect anyone who is more womanly down there...
Let me say it quite clearly - the guy was tortured until he couldnt take it anymore and went to the meta. there is also ep 2 which points to that - he did have a bad ending there and was "torn apart" by the goats..its pretty clear that this is referring to torture. And bern says a the end of ep 2: "if you have many more endings like this, your heart will die". In prime he did have those "endings". And the final "bad ending" was with this thing that the wedding is all about, and from that point on he is pretty much "dead" in prime. while in the meta, there was always someone that helped him get back up on his feet (like even bern did in ep 2 by cheering him up), in prime there was noone.Just remember when in ep 6, he wanted just "anyone" to come to help him get out of the room...well, in prime they are all dead, so this is impossible. first he thought "I wont die, I cant die", but at the end, after the story with the "ring", he didnt make it.
here:
http://mangafox.me/manga/umineko_no_...5/c018/43.html
see the scene there? I mean the chain-scene.and also:-when he says as long as I can think...I wont die" - I want to remind you of beginning ep 3, the 7 sisters of purgatory always hit him when he said something wrong. now, in a torture room in prime we know what kind of "game" those two are playing, dont we? battlers got to solve the riddles sayo gives him and if he cant do it then he gets tortured. thats why after ep 2 when he gave in he had such a bad ending. in ep 3 when the seven sisters of purgatory stab him whenever he says something wrong, he says "if I dont consider myself lucky to see these asses, I wont be able to stand it." Now in prime he didnt see anything so that basically says he doesnt stand it. and a logic error is the worst error you can make, so thats why hes punished the way Erika does it in the wedding-ceremony... )


after the "ring"-scene in meta -battlers heart died, he forgot everything and was locked in the creepy room where he reexperiences some stuff in a warped way
after the "ring"-scene in prime-battlers heart died, he forgot everything and was locked in the meta-world where he reexperiences some stuff in a warped way

I understand that we could also interpret it like you did. but the meta is primarily battlers reexperiences of prime (like its shown in the creepy room in ep 6). beato is forming the world and giving it the possibility to exist through her cat box, but the meta is battlers "closed room" - Erika ep 6: "we're going to lock you in the closed room you yourself created".
to me it seems now like beato even made it possible for him to enter the meta in the first place. And that she allowed the world to exist, for him so he could cope with it, solve the riddle he is supposed to solve, repent for what he did wrong and then get back to his original world and get out of the room. Thats how I see it now. When battler didnt know what to do anymore, beato let other people in,like virgila and ange, to help him. (though she is not only noble, at the end of ep 4 for example, she really is quite the a*** to him, but generally she does want battler to win).
and the meta is an "alice in wonderland" not so much of the fear a person has (though of course, that is very important too) , but more of the things he experienced. the elements for prime are all there, they are just warped.

anyways, sayo loved george. she wanted to start a new life with him ((in ep 8 manga confession). I dont think that the thing we're talking about here fits very well, does it?
I could still see that sayos afraid of the time george finds out about her issues, but what would the the ring be supposed to symbolize in this context?

the hints for the locked room fit, the torture-references fit, the age-discrepance fit, when-did-the-meta-start fits, all the meta-hints to prime fit, ikukos role fits (what about her asking the doctor to keep silent like kinzo did in the situation with beato), the "coincidences" finding all the scrolls fit, the parable of the torture fits...

also, touya ep 8 manga to ikuko: "its really nice how the ring was hinted at several times". The ring is important. Imo its one of the most important elements of the story.


Quote:
While it is peculiar that Touya feels older than he should, it might just be psychological. Here are some of the problems I see with your theory. One, it basically makes Battler go through the meta story twice for no reason, if he again loses his memory after solving the game on the island. Two, even if Eva was rescued from Kuwadorian, they never found Battler. It's true it might not be that simple to find the underground area, but still. Three, Beatrice lost the game when the siblings solved the epitaph. Four, Beatrice was probably at least wounded so she might not have survived for that long. It is also said in red that Beatrice died in October of 1986. Five, it is heavily implied that Battler did not solve the game before Beatrice died, so she couldn't be the one to let him out of the room. Six, what would Battler eat to live that long in a cell? I guess it's devil proof that there is a massive food storage in Kuwadorian, but no one really even uses the place any more.
Thanks for the feedback! Ill answer all of your questions, and without problems

1. no, he only went through the meta once-until he solved the puzzle and left the island with beato. the meta ends there, touya gets back to his own body and is let out. the books touya and ikuko later write are not the meta we see, as you've shown already when you solved the ange-paradox

2.I dont really get this "but still", but Ill try to elaborate on it a bit they showed you cant find the room in ep 4. battler tried to get access to the dungeon, but he couldnt get into it. also:under the kuwadorian theres a military base, that was constructed not to be found. there are many hints that show you, you cant find it. btw ,the whole family did never find the kuwadorian, for years... and it was even more natural to assume battler was dead if eva thought and said so. also, its the year 1986, so part of our technology today wasnt invented yet.
there are hidden rooms in umineko, like the golden land, and its always hinted at that they are hidden (for the locked room, primarily by several "walls" of metal bars in ep 4).

and its really probable that eva did assume battler died in the explosion. and she probably told the police at least some things. I found two hints for that:
1- eva reaction when ange accused her of having killed her family. she only reacts differently once ange says "give me back my onii-chan". she might actually have felt responsible for letting the bomb go off even though there was still a survivor from evas perspective.
2- evas diary. ange reads it and afterwards completely accepts it when battler says in ep 8 that he is already dead. its like a confirmation for her what she read in the diary. if eva didnt write anything about that, she probably would still have the hope that he could come back. but eva most probably thought he died in the explosion.


3.beatos motivation after having lost the game is in the beginning, like I said, probably to help him. like she says in ep 5 "I knew a man...and the suffering he went through when he had to abandon this belief. I wont abandon anyone! I wont let a human be the culprit"! Because thats what battler doesnt want - he doenst want the culprit to be one of his own family, thats the worst truth for him, as its shown in the games 1-4. so she is playing "who is the true culprit" with him. I still dont think she was just a pure saint though, or else she wouldnt have died with so many regrets. like i said, in prime, she really urged him to think about her "heart" - as seen in ep 3. we can say this one thing with absolute certainty: beato, even after she died, for some reason still wanted battler to solve her riddle, even after she already had lost her game.

4. she is wounded yes, thats why we thought the magic ending is the real ending. but there were enough other wounded people that didnt die. she was shot by the broken gun after all, and it later shows, by the way jessica is killed, that that gun is pretty much no good for killing people. Sayo could have also bitten her tongue or something while falling. I think there are enough hints that show us sayo didnt die.i also interpret it as "beato is wounded", not "sayo is wounded" - i know its techically the same, but the fact that such an unimportant (<-my reading) wound is mentioned is imo a story-telling devide that tells us: beato will die soon.

5. hehe, thats what Ive been saying - beato died the second day in october 1986. at that time, she is "killed" by sayo and constructs the world of the meta. sayo takes over from that point on.

6. yep, Ive been thinking about this as well. but theres still sayo, and in the meta, it was always ronove who brought stuff for him to eat. If I remember right, it was not even once shown in the meta that he got food by himself, right? the long chain in ep 6 locked room also shows that he probably IS able to leave the room at least some meters. "it reaches quite a long way into the floor". theres also a motorboat that still works hidden there under the kuwadorian if someone wants to get new stuff to eat, this person can do so. You know -this sayo&battler situation is like a giant repetition of the kinzo&beatrice situation-just reversed. Thats why the bunnies say in the wedding battler is playing the part of the bride. we all know how kinzo managed to get the food for beatrice, by a hidden port. and we know of this other hidden port. and see: anges investigation resulted in: there are two ports on rokkenjima. its not: there are three ports. but in fact, there are three! -> neither the police nor anyone else did know about this port/this part of the island. only sayo did.
Also: erikas plans in ep 6 for their life as a married couple are probably not just some random delusion -like everything else, it refers to prime somehow -"youll just be a puppet. I wont even let you die".

from my theory results that someone saved him from the room, this someone was sayo as ikuko. I already explained in the last post what is hinting at that. the car-accident never happened, thats why touya never sees the traces of the accident on the car. its just a story ikuko told him. and the reason she lies is because she knows how he got away from the island, while touya confuses the meta-end with what really happened.


kinzo and beatrice <------------------------------------> sayo&battler
k is obsessed with b <-------------------------------------------> s is obsessed with b
k longed to see b again, waited for years and turned to magic <------> s longed to see b again, waited for years and turned to magic
k keeps b confined <-------------------------------------> s keeps b confined
k keeps b hidden from everyone else <-----------> s keeps b hidden from everyone else
over years<---------------------------------------------->over years
b doesnt know who she is <--------------------------> b at the end doesnt know who he is
b is "revived" as another person (as the 2nd beatrice) <-------------------> b is "revived" as another person (as touya)
k carries injured b away from the island<-->s as ikuko carries injured touya (after he solved the riddle in the meta) away from the island
beatrice is the bride <----------------------------------> "battler plays the part of the bride" (quote-bunnies)
k asks doctor to keep silent about her <---->s as ikuko asks doctor to keep silent about him
uses hidden port to get food-supplies <---------> uses hidden port to get food-supplies
k lives in a seperate mansion from b <-> s as ikuko lives in a seperate mansion from b
(explanation: s as ikuko chose a new mansion to live in close to the sea - hint hint hint)
k comes to visit b whenever possible in those years <---->s comes to visit b whenever possible in those years (explanations:ikuko lives in the other mansion at the sea, she goes to rokkenjima by boat)
k abuses b <------------------------------------> s abuses/tortures b
first b killed herself <----------------------------> b "kills" himself by going to the meta
they arent officially married but k considers b his wife <---> they arent married but s considers b her husband after the "wedding"(ikuko is still not married because of that)

all of this results from the three points: battler locked in a room, spent years there, meta occurs in the time after battler "dies".
now, noone tells me that this is a coincidence...and its shown various time in the games that "kinzo" talking about his ceremony and wanting to meet beato again is actually beato talking about her ceremonies and wanting to meet battler again. Again, at the end of ep 5 when battler finds the truth and the pictures flash by- the last one you see for a very! brief moment says "kinzo is trying to keep me away from reaching the golden witch". Do away with the illusion of kinzo and you find what the golden witch wants. Then think about krauss' comment in ep 4 about the torture-room under kuwadorian: " "kinzo" was having "fun" down here all alone with "beatrice" ".

Erika - yet another personality / character trait of sayo
btw, erika is connected to sayo too in some way-ikuko/featherine is the master of bern and bern is the master of erika. and erika in the meta does more or less what sayo did in prime. imo, from a story-telling pov (not necessarily from in-game though) you can see erika as another identity of sayo- that explains why battler asks beato in the end , ep 6 (when beato and battler are about to shoot erika): "are you sure?". erika is the "perverted" personality of sayo, thats why she does in the wedding what sayo did. she is the detective, the antagonist of the witch and she is responsable for the fact that beato died in ep 5. and the same Erika-personality-trait of sayo is replacing beato in 1986, "killing" her through that. thats why battler could get out after ep 6 if he wanted to, once erika was shot. and it also explains why battler and erika are called "archrivals" (ep 8), cause its the erika in sayo that does what she does to battler in prime. thats what i mean when i say everything fits...

Last edited by Inbuiltx9; 2015-03-23 at 22:07.
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Old 2015-03-23, 22:10   Link #35009
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow
By the way, did anyone notice that Black Battler is probably bisexual? He says sexual innuendos to not only the female characters when he wins, but also to WILLARD H. WRIGHT OF ALL PEOPLE?!
You say that like the original Battler wasn't also bisexual.

Quote:
Also does anyone remember that when Battler and co. asked Lambdadelta for help in EP8, she sighs and says something along the lines that she is a student and that she has cleaning duties? Could this mean that she is an avatar of a real person in the real world as well? (Man I sure am hoping that Lambda is actually Tohya and Ikuko's kid that has a fixation on their pet cat).
A kid? Probably not. A hired teenage intern or something? Sure.
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Old 2015-03-24, 11:16   Link #35010
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Inbuiltx9,

Why I think the Beatrice that demands Battler to remember his sin represents Sayo herself is because the sin was between Battler and her, not Beatrice, said even in red. The character of Beatrice would then take over and finish up the serial murder mystery as the witch tasked with her resurrection ritual.

No doubt the ring is a very important clue, both the ring of the head and the diamond ring. Beato possessing the ring of the head is self-explanatory, plus in EP3 it is shown the ring is passed to the finder of the gold, which tells Beato indeed possesses "golden magic", and the Eva who survived most likely had something to do with finding the gold. The diamond ring is also a thing that led to Sayo's game, making the family conference of 1986 a time limit for her decisions. Also ties into the game not happening if Battler came back a year earlier or later, as Sayo would probably have chosen Battler if he came back earlier, and would have already promised to marry George if he came back later.

It's probably pretty customary to have a diamond ring when talking about marriage, but both the ring Erika gives Battler and the one George gives Shannon are similar diamond rings in the manga. What if, when Battler says "I'll never forgive you for defiling Beato's ring" he doesn't only mean the ring of the head, but the one he received? A clue that says Beato has both the diamond ring and the ring of the head, therefore Shannon is Beato and the true head of the family, perhaps?

I think Erika and Battler's perverted wedding is connected to Kinzou raping Kuwadorian Beatrice, and doesn't have that much to do with Battler in Prime, though it might refer to Beatrice's riddle tormenting Battler in Touya's mind. There were other allusions to Kinzou and Kuwadorian Beatrice in EP6, so I believe it isn't a far-fetched connection to make. Why don't you listen to yourself when you say you don't want to think about such a horrible solution? Why can't Kuwadorian Beatrice be the only one who had to suffer sexual abuse?

Also, I wouldn't be so sure Battler being eaten by goats in EP2 is an indication of torture. Remember, in EP1 for example Jessica and George's death TIPS say that they were eaten by demons too. The goats eating Battler is as far as I know connected to the bomb destroying Rokkenjima at midnight. Notice that goats eat the island in EP8 too.

I also think your adding an unnecessary layer in between when you're comparing Kuwadorian Beatrice's situation to Battler in EP6. As the truth about Kuwadorian Beatrice wasn't given until EP7, I would say that is the simple connection we were supposed to make with the EP6 information ourselves. To say that it relates to what happened to Battler in Prime might be unnecessary, as it could have been just a clue to the answer that was given in EP7. Of course it does connect to Prime as well, because we're talking about what really happened before the 1986 family conference.

The part comparing Kinzou and Bice in the submarine base massacre to Battler and Beatrice in 1986 could be important, but where did you get the idea that Touya and Ikuko lived in separate mansions? I'm pretty sure they lived in the same house.

I was a supporter of the theory that Ikuko is Yasu before, but nowadays I feel like it takes something away from the story if Sayo did not die in 1986. It also makes both Ikuko and Sayo sound worse people than they have to be. I love Sayo as the culprit, partly because I can relate to some of her problems myself. I can accept her creating a deadly gamble in desperation, but capturing and torturing Battler even after she lost her own bet? Even I couldn't forgive that person as easily as Battler did.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
You say that like the original Battler wasn't also bisexual.
Now all the speculation way back about if Battler was gay is coming back to me. He doesn't seem to like to talk about his love life that much, so maybe he was hiding something behind that boob-loving exterior. At least that legendary line from the visual novel that could be interpreted as Battler saying his first love was a situation where he went out with another guy is confirmed in the manga to refer to Shannon as her first love going out with another guy, George. While I don't believe he's totally gay, I could believe in his bisexuality. It might have helped him understand Sayo, too.


I'm becoming more and more confident about my idea of Virgilia as Ikuko's representative in the meta world. I even thought that maybe Sayo didn't even create her, but she was created by Ikuko while fitting the setting. She doesn't appear in Confession of the Golden Witch, but she is in Clair's story and Maria's diary, so I think Sayo did create her after all. It would have fit with Ryuukishi creating Virgilia for the new EP3 after he scrapped Land and Virgilius, and in a way would be similar to how Sayo 'modified the world', but maybe not then.

Think about it. Virgilia first appears in the first forgery Ikuko and Touya write. Her purpose is the give extra advice to Battler, to be the guide that leads Dante to Beatrice. She gives Beatrice the idea of acting softer this time so Battler would be more willing to understand her. Only she, Ronove and Dlanor come visit Battler and Beatrice in the Golden Land when Beatrice is dying, Virgilia being present the most. She gives Battler crucial red truths about Beatrice's motive and she assures Battler that Natsuhi is not the culprit so he wouldn't give in to Erika's theory. She knows Featherine. She is the only one in the chapel with Battler when he lays his story in Beatrice's coffin.

My theory is still that Ikuko reaches the truth with Legend, Turn and Confession. She inherits Beatrice's role and becomes an Endless Witch the same way Battler did in EP5, by understanding everything. She inherits her game board and pieces, including Virgilia. As Beatrice she does not go against her previously established character, but she uses Virgilia to make the game easier for Touya.

I used to think that Ikuko was connected to Chick-Beatrice, but I assumed it was that Ikuko did not know the truth, and Touya taught it to her through the logic error. I lost confidence in this theory at some point, but now I think Chick-Beatrice does indeed represent Ikuko, paralleling the time before she reached the truth of Legend and Turn. The meta story of Chick-Beatrice in Dawn is the story of Ikuko. It's basically Beatrice's second revival, because Ikuko revived Beatrice after she died in 1986 by taking over her as the game master, though she hadn't really died in the meta before.

Chick-Beatrice was brought by Virgilia to Featherine's archives to read the past stories. This was of course Ikuko reading Sayo's message bottles in her own house. Confession of the Golden Witch could be taken as the past equivalent of Dawn as the key to understanding Beatrice. Ikuko trying to intensively learn about the Golden Witch might have happened soon after she saw how hearing about the Rokkenjima incident affected Touya. Because she loved Touya, she wanted to solve the mystery and learn about the connection between Beatrice and Battler, "for Father's sake". Touya was stuck in a metaphorical closed room with his memories that could kill him, and Ikuko wanted to help him out of there.

The meta story of Dawn was a replay of this past event, where Ikuko imagined herself as the chick of Beatrice once more, and tested if she could once again become the Endless Witch by using Touya's new game board instead of Confession as a key to all the past stories, now including Banquet, Alliance and End they wrote together as well. When Ikuko was able to do that, Touya had proven that he understood Beatrice, and Beatrice revived as her wish was fulfilled and faith in Battler restored. If Touya's Dawn included the logic error in some form, maybe it could be taken as Touya's gratitude towards Ikuko for saving him. After Battler and Beatrice are married in their happy ending, Touya and Ikuko are now free to love each other as well.

If my theory is true, it brings the meta world extremely close to what happens in Rokkenjima Prime, which I take as a very good thing. But shouldn't Touya know the truth before writing the forgeries based on him saying he gave ideas and Ikuko wrote the stories? I don't want to think it's totally unimportant, but I think his role as the idea man might have been greater in the mystery novels they wrote together before starting the forgeries. Alternatively, could this theory work if you switched Ikuko and Touya's roles? Featherine did say she was looking at the stories through Battler, but I think it's more about observing Touya's thoughts than literally acting as his past self in the meta world.
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Old 2015-03-24, 13:44   Link #35011
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Next thing I found some info about

Ep 8 touya to ikuko, critizising her story : “I like that the ring was referred to early on … also I think you should say something about the ocean currents, it’s a bit unfair for the reader if you don’t.

Ok, I looked it up, but the info is really difficult to get.

First of all: Near Niijima (the island that truly exists as one of the izu-islands of japan, which is supposed to be the next island to Rokkenjima in the story) there is an island to the south called Hachijyou Island. I didn’t realize that... And I looked up the ocean currents from where Rokkenjima potentially lies and if the current could possibly lead the message bottles to hajijyou island. The current goes from west to east, but hajijyou island lies to the south. The current would never have taken the message bottles to hachijou island! So its not possible ikuko found the message bottles on the shore! She lied!

More like, she already lied when she said she found touya there, cause he too cant have been carried off by the currents towards hachijou island!

Last edited by Inbuiltx9; 2015-03-24 at 16:27.
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Old 2015-03-24, 14:32   Link #35012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
Inbuiltx9,

Why I think the Beatrice that demands Battler to remember his sin represents Sayo herself is because the sin was between Battler and her, not Beatrice, said even in red. The character of Beatrice would then take over and finish up the serial murder mystery as the witch tasked with her resurrection ritual.
the sin was originally between shannon and battler right? and beato later took over all the feelings of shannon. and this beato wants him to remember and later on, "erika"-sayo takes over. when piece-beato is born from game-master-beato, game-master beato says to her: "You must love him in my stead, I cant love him anymore". I read it like this: Because she is being replaced by someone else, by erika-sayo. (I know you could also interpret it as a shannon-beato-scene, but I always found it strange that piece-beato would then call shannon "mother", when "mother" can really only refer to sayo/yasu)

Quote:

No doubt the ring is a very important clue, both the ring of the head and the diamond ring. Beato possessing the ring of the head is self-explanatory, plus in EP3 it is shown the ring is passed to the finder of the gold, which tells Beato indeed possesses "golden magic", and the Eva who survived most likely had something to do with finding the gold. The diamond ring is also a thing that led to Sayo's game, making the family conference of 1986 a time limit for her decisions. Also ties into the game not happening if Battler came back a year earlier or later, as Sayo would probably have chosen Battler if he came back earlier, and would have already promised to marry George if he came back later.
Yes, but all that we already know early on. The fact that touya mentiones the clue with the ring later on as important, I cant think it refers to another ring. Ill stick to my view, just because the parallels I mentioned early on are far too striking for me But I wont argue that you cannot interpret it in a completely different way.

Quote:
It's probably pretty customary to have a diamond ring when talking about marriage, but both the ring Erika gives Battler and the one George gives Shannon are similar diamond rings in the manga. What if, when Battler says "I'll never forgive you for defiling Beato's ring" he doesn't only mean the ring of the head, but the one he received? A clue that says Beato has both the diamond ring and the ring of the head, therefore Shannon is Beato and the true head of the family, perhaps?
Ahh I understand, you want to read the ring as a clue towards the fact that beato and shannon are one and the same? Hehe, I like this idea, even though I dont agree. Erikas ring has spikes, Georges is just a normal ring. I can see how you read it in an abstract way, I read it in a more concrete way though, just because of the thousand sexual connotations the marriage has.

Quote:
I think Erika and Battler's perverted wedding is connected to Kinzou raping Kuwadorian Beatrice, and doesn't have that much to do with Battler in Prime, though it might refer to Beatrice's riddle tormenting Battler in Touya's mind. There were other allusions to Kinzou and Kuwadorian Beatrice in EP6, so I believe it isn't a far-fetched connection to make. Why don't you listen to yourself when you say you don't want to think about such a horrible solution? Why can't Kuwadorian Beatrice be the only one who had to suffer sexual abuse?
Haha, now thats a strange question and its even kinda mean. Because it puts me into a situation where I have to defend myself, but I dont even want to do that. Why do I not abandon this idea? Because I cant. Id want to, but I cant. This would be like ignoring all the clues we get. Im too old and Ive seen to much sh*** for me to ignore all this. I cant help it, it all falls into place like this. If I try to read it another way, then I really have to force myself. Id like to accept other solutions, and Im glad you made an effort to try to explain it a different way. I thought about what you said, but your arent convincing me yet, because the meta for prime is just like beatos fantasy is for her mystery. And it really really all points to one conclusion, I want to, but the way it all fits, Im even inclined to say Im sure about it (but that would be annoyingly arrogant so I wont, and I still want to listen to other theories). Its just that all the small sentences that didnt fit before, all the little allusions, the details, the story-line, it fits. I cant help it, Im sorry.

Quote:
Also, I wouldn't be so sure Battler being eaten by goats in EP2 is an indication of torture. Remember, in EP1 for example Jessica and George's death TIPS say that they were eaten by demons too. The goats eating Battler is as far as I know connected to the bomb destroying Rokkenjima at midnight. Notice that goats eat the island in EP8 too.
Fair enough, thats a plausible conclusion. And this even I find convincing. Just this counter-argument: Everything that happens in the meta kind of happens in prime. In ep 2 we are no longer purely on the game-board, and we know battler never died by the bomb. but I also like your argument. The tips - do you remember if it was said for ep 2 or for ep 1? but still, rosa was eaten so they surely also represent the bomb.

Quote:
I also think your adding an unnecessary layer in between when you're comparing Kuwadorian Beatrice's situation to Battler in EP6. As the truth about Kuwadorian Beatrice wasn't given until EP7, I would say that is the simple connection we were supposed to make with the EP6 information ourselves. To say that it relates to what happened to Battler in Prime might be unnecessary, as it could have been just a clue to the answer that was given in EP7. Of course it does connect to Prime as well, because we're talking about what really happened before the 1986 family conference.
??? Ep 1 cant be solved by itself, ep 2 cant be solved alone without future episodes. the other episodes cant either. - I mean questions like "what is the meta", why does she do it? etc. Even prime cant be solved without the clues that were given waaaay later in ep 7. There was no way we could know what the tests in ep 4 were about if we didnt get ep 7. Why should ep 6 be an exception?

Quote:
The part comparing Kinzou and Bice in the submarine base massacre to Battler and Beatrice in 1986 could be important, but where did you get the idea that Touya and Ikuko lived in separate mansions? I'm pretty sure they lived in the same house.
Nono, I didnt mean Ikuko and Touya lived in seperate mansions. Im sorry if I didnt pay attention to that. Battler and "Ikuko" lived in sepeate mansions following my theory - he on rokkenjima, ikuko on a mansion on hachijou island. later though as touya and ikuko they lived toether. I also think "Ikuko" is the wrong name here, it would be more something like erika-sayo.

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I was a supporter of the theory that Ikuko is Yasu before, but nowadays I feel like it takes something away from the story if Sayo did not die in 1986. It also makes both Ikuko and Sayo sound worse people than they have to be. I love Sayo as the culprit, partly because I can relate to some of her problems myself. I can accept her creating a deadly gamble in desperation, but capturing and torturing Battler even after she lost her own bet? Even I couldn't forgive that person as easily as Battler did.
Did you check my latest post about the ocean current? Ikuko probably lied and she never found any message bottles. I know what you mean, but we see that in the meta, Beato still did pose her questions even after she lost her game, this at least, we know this for a fact. (It doesnt matter even if you consider it all a book (which I dont) because the sayo-character is still the sayo-character in the book). and battler did forgive erika even after what she did in ep 6. I didnt think she should be forginven either.

Last edited by Inbuiltx9; 2015-03-24 at 14:45.
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Old 2015-03-24, 16:54   Link #35013
Bluemail
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Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
the sin was originally between shannon and battler right? and beato later took over all the feelings of shannon. and this beato wants him to remember and later on, "erika"-sayo takes over. when piece-beato is born from game-master-beato, game-master beato says to her: "You must love him in my stead, I cant love him anymore". I read it like this: Because she is being replaced by someone else, by erika-sayo. (I know you could also interpret it as a shannon-beato-scene, but I always found it strange that piece-beato would then call shannon "mother", when "mother" can really only refer to sayo/yasu)
You know, now that I re-read the scene, I agree with you that the one on the balcony at first is the character Beatrice and is taken over by Sayo. And no, it's not Shannon who appears on the balcony, it's Yasuda Sayo.

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Yes, but all that we already know early on. The fact that touya mentiones the clue with the ring later on as important, I cant think it refers to another ring. Ill stick to my view, just because the parallels I mentioned early on are far too striking for me But I wont argue that you cannot interpret it in a completely different way.
I don't think it matters at all how early we know about it in this case. As Touya says, the ring was referred to early on, as both the ring of the head and the engagement ring appear in EP1. But we do not know for sure the full implications they carry before a bit later. If Touya mentions the ring in EP8, why do you think the ring he refers to the ring in EP6 specifically and not the other rings appearing in Umineko as a whole?

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Ahh I understand, you want to read the ring as a clue towards the fact that beato and shannon are one and the same? Hehe, I like this idea, even though I dont agree. Erikas ring has spikes, Georges is just a normal ring. I can see how you read it in an abstract way, I read it in a more concrete way though, just because of the thousand sexual connotations the marriage has.
Well, Umineko would be full of weirdness if we didn't interpret some stuff abstractly, hehe.

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Haha, now thats a strange question and its even kinda mean. Because it puts me into a situation where I have to defend myself, but I dont even want to do that. Why do I not abandon this idea? Because I cant. Id want to, but I cant. This would be like ignoring all the clues we get. Im too old and Ive seen to much sh*** for me to ignore all this. I cant help it, it all falls into place like this. If I try to read it another way, then I really have to force myself. Id like to accept other solutions, and Im glad you made an effort to try to explain it a different way. I thought about what you said, but your arent convincing me yet, because the meta for prime is just like beatos fantasy is for her mystery. And it really really all points to one conclusion, I want to, but the way it all fits, Im even inclined to say Im sure about it (but that would be annoyingly arrogant so I wont, and I still want to listen to other theories). Its just that all the small sentences that didnt fit before, all the little allusions, the details, the story-line, it fits. I cant help it, Im sorry.
I'm so sorry, I didn't mean to make it so you'd be forced to answer to any more than you want to, especially after you already seemed so awkward about your solution. I meant it more like you can still choose what you'd like the solution to be, and I'm here to give you alternatives to your way of thinking so you wouldn't feel you have to think of this as the correct solution if you don't want to. If you think your solution fits thematically and isn't unnecessarily dark, then I guess it is good enough, even if I disagree.

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Fair enough, thats a plausible conclusion. And this even I find convincing. Just this counter-argument: Everything that happens in the meta kind of happens in prime. In ep 2 we are no longer purely on the game-board, and we know battler never died by the bomb. but I also like your argument. The tips - do you remember if it was said for ep 2 or for ep 1? but still, rosa was eaten so they surely also represent the bomb.
It is piece Battler who dies by being eaten by goats. Meta Battler who represents Prime Battler is not affected by it, I believe.

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??? Ep 1 cant be solved by itself, ep 2 cant be solved alone without future episodes. the other episodes cant either. - I mean questions like "what is the meta", why does she do it? etc. Even prime cant be solved without the clues that were given waaaay later in ep 7. There was no way we could know what the tests in ep 4 were about if we didnt get ep 7. Why should ep 6 be an exception?
Beato wanted you to solve it, so she made this game, the riddles of this tale, solvable.
Sayo in CotGW: "All of these message bottles are made in a way that, if you follow all of the many rules, you will be able to unveil the culprit."

I'm sure you know most of this, but the whole idea of a mystery is that we can solve it ourselves before the answers are given. The clues later on and the answers are a way to make the correct solution more apparent and to check our answer, but it doesn't mean we cannot reach the answers before reading them. We cannot be sure of our answer or all the details, but the possibility must exist. It is possible to solve Umineko in some form with just EP1, but it is difficult and the minute details of the answer will be up to imagination. We can make a good theory about what the tests in EP4 mean without further episodes, but we cannot confirm the answer until later.

The wedding in EP6 is the same thing. By the time we read that wedding scene, we should have some theories already. If at that point you have a theory that Kuwadorian Beatrice was sexually abused, it would feel like you are on to the correct solution the wedding scene if you connect it with the other allusions to her and Kinzou's relationship. If you have a theory that Battler was sexually abused instead, you would also feel you're on the right path.

When you read EP7, the answer about Kuwadorian Beatrice is given. If you had the first theory, you would think that "I was correct, that must be what the wedding scene hinted at". If you had the second theory, you would have multiple options. You could think that "this is what the wedding scene probably hinted at, I must have been wrong". Or you could think "I didn't expect that, but because of the wedding scene I believe Battler too was abused".

What I'm getting at is that the hint's meaning might have been answered already. Of course, it is never a bad thing to take a hint multiple ways and I do not know the correct answer any better than you do. I've been talking about this for way too long, as it's not that much of a big deal. But are you sure you are not trying to answer a question the author never asked you to answer?

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Nono, I didnt mean Ikuko and Touya lived in seperate mansions. Im sorry if I didnt pay attention to that. Battler and "Ikuko" lived in sepeate mansions following my theory - he on rokkenjima, ikuko on a mansion on hachijou island. later though as touya and ikuko they lived toether. I also think "Ikuko" is the wrong name here, it would be more something like erika-sayo.

Did you check my latest post about the ocean current? Ikuko probably lied and she never found any message bottles. I know what you mean, but we see that in the meta, Beato still did pose her questions even after she lost her game, this at least, we know this for a fact. (It doesnt matter even if you consider it all a book (which I dont) because the sayo-character is still the sayo-character in the book). and battler did forgive erika even after what she did in ep 6. I didnt think she should be forginven either.
You shouldn't assume Ikuko lives on Hachijou Island just because of the name and therefore assume she was lying. The house Ange visits in EP6 is on the mainland, because she leaves for Niijima after that. It is probably the same house in EP8 too, though it isn't shown from the outside in EP6.

What do you mean by "considering it all a book"? About forgiving Erika, she didn't do all that in Prime. And no actual sexual abuse happened at the wedding in the meta world, though she did many other horrible things.
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Old 2015-03-24, 18:10   Link #35014
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
What is also interesting about Black Battler is that he clearly remembers his promise with Shannon if you play as him in a non-story mode arcade.
Honestly I think that even Battler remembers more than what he lets us know (although he keeps on claiming he remembers nothing actually during the narration he ends up admitting he remembers various things) but as Shannon seems to be happily engaged with George he doesn't connect her with Beato or his sin because he likely thought his promise wasn't taken seriously.

If we look at things from Battler's point of view, he was the one afraid that Shannon would make fun of him for the things he told her in the past (Ep 3 & 7).
He believes he lost to George and therefore he has no right to complain and tries to be supportive even if he's jealous.
Jessica also tells him that Shannon and George liked each other form when they were children so, same as Sayo, he might have thought she was the one who wasn't taking him seriously and making fun of him.

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Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
If you search in Umineko Hane - Forgery no.xxx on Youtube, go at around time stamp 20:50 - 21:07, where he tries to tell Tohya indirectly, that even if he doesn't write any more forgeries, he would still exist, since there are people making theories pinning him as the culprit.
Oh, thank you! And now I understand why I couldn't find it. When I had to change my pc I didn't have the chance to reinstall the games but I kept the transcriptions of the games. Somehow that bit got lost in my transcription.

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Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
Man they should also release a PS3 version (or even a short OVA) of these additional tips. It would be great to hear Daisuke Ono's performance as Black Battler again, since he did a good job in Ougon Musou Kyoku CROSS.
I'd love to have Forgery no.XXX in audio version (also I'd like to find Jessica and the electric killer fan... I know they put it on a drama cd but I can't find it... ;_

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Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
He also says when he cancels his opponent's meta activation, that "No one can deny my existence".
Well, that's for sure. Not only the truth is in the catbox so no theory can be denied but technically Battler's actions are partly responsible for the crime... and then we don't know if Battler actually was accountable of something in Prime...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
He is NTR villain material. If you pair him up with Shannon and you encounter George in a non-story mode stage, he would even tell Shannon to finish off George before calling her a good girl for doing so.
*nods* Yes. I love the BBattler/Shannon interaction... though I think it's a pity he doesn't have a storymore with Beato and with Kanon as well. His interaction with them is also interesting.
In a way though it might be that BBattler is merely the opposite of Battler. Battler would support Shannon & George's relation, BBattler would want it to be destroyed and Shannon be returned to him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
I think Erika and Battler's perverted wedding is connected to Kinzou raping Kuwadorian Beatrice, and doesn't have that much to do with Battler in Prime, though it might refer to Beatrice's riddle tormenting Battler in Touya's mind. There were other allusions to Kinzou and Kuwadorian Beatrice in EP6, so I believe it isn't a far-fetched connection to make.
*nods* Yes, there's quite a lot about it and Erika clearly forced herself upon Battler the same way Kinzo did with his daughter.
A hint is also that Erika doesn't love Battler but she seems to see him as a way to
be on the bullying side paralleling her previous relationship in which she felt used... as if Battler was a replacement for her boyfriend.

I also thought there could be a parallelism in Battler's situation and how Sayo ended up wounded and losing her right to become heir (the right of being the heir is in Ep 7 represented by a ring).
There's also a scene in which Battler has his ring finger bitten away, implying mutilation and the loss of the ring as well.

If I've to try and connect the ring to George and Sayo instead I think that at best it could reflect her fear of losing herself by marrying to George, more than her fear of George.
Never once Shannon seems to be scared of George as someone who could hurt her but she's afraid of him rejecting her, of the fact that if she were to tie herself to him she'll lose her chance to be with Battler and believes that, in order to be accepted by him, she would have to toss away some parts of herself.
The ring becomes a time limit for taking decisions that will have consequences from which she can't escape and that will tie her to a certain fate.
So in a way when Erika talks about the ring subjugating Battler and tying him like a leash, this can parallel Sayo's fear that if she were to accept the ring she'll lose herself.

Also, Ep 2 & 6 present quite a negative view of sex which might be nothing else but a reflection to Sayo's fears. Her mother was raped, she seems to believe her grandmother could have been raped as well (in ep 3 Beatrice will tell the tale of how she met Kinzo and it's implied Kinzo forced himself on her while in ep 4 Beatrice described how Kinzo did horrible things to her... and what's more she says Battler will be allowed to do that to her as well if he'll pass the test) and her body is damaged. We don't know exactly how damaged it is but it had been speculated she could have troubles having a normal sex life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
I was a supporter of the theory that Ikuko is Yasu before, but nowadays I feel like it takes something away from the story if Sayo did not die in 1986.
Same here. And there's to say the manga is hinting more to the possibility that Ikuko is her own person and there's also the fact that Ryukishi wanted Ikuko and Tohya to get married but the staff voted against it. It might be because they felt it was sort of sad toward Sayo...

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Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
Think about it. Virgilia first appears in the first forgery Ikuko and Touya write. Her purpose is the give extra advice to Battler, to be the guide that leads Dante to Beatrice. She gives Beatrice the idea of acting softer this time so Battler would be more willing to understand her. Only she, Ronove and Dlanor come visit Battler and Beatrice in the Golden Land when Beatrice is dying, Virgilia being present the most. She gives Battler crucial red truths about Beatrice's motive and she assures Battler that Natsuhi is not the culprit so he wouldn't give in to Erika's theory. She knows Featherine. She is the only one in the chapel with Battler when he lays his story in Beatrice's coffin.

My theory is still that Ikuko reaches the truth with Legend, Turn and Confession. She inherits Beatrice's role and becomes an Endless Witch the same way Battler did in EP5, by understanding everything. She inherits her game board and pieces, including Virgilia. As Beatrice she does not go against her previously established character, but she uses Virgilia to make the game easier for Touya.
The problem would be that Beatrice and Battler are the only ones who've the title of endless. Virgilia is the finite witch.
While I think that Ikuko can definitely be represented by Virgilia (but this let me wonder 'then who's Ronove?') I see her as a mere support while, unless I'm misunderstanding you, you seem to see her as much more in control.
I might be wrong though. If there's a thing about Ikuko I've always hated is that there are no enough info about her and that I can't get a clear grasp about her.

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Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
I used to think that Ikuko was connected to Chick-Beatrice, but I assumed it was that Ikuko did not know the truth, and Touya taught it to her through the logic error. I lost confidence in this theory at some point, but now I think Chick-Beatrice does indeed represent Ikuko, paralleling the time before she reached the truth of Legend and Turn. The meta story of Chick-Beatrice in Dawn is the story of Ikuko. It's basically Beatrice's second revival, because Ikuko revived Beatrice after she died in 1986 by taking over her as the game master, though she hadn't really died in the meta before.
In a way I've also thought chick Beato too represent Ikuko. Beatrice is the living embodiement of the rules of the gameboard but this can be a parallelism to say that she's the product of certain circumstances. Battler fell in love with Sayo due to their mystery connection and Tohya has a mystery connection with Ikuko which might have caused him to develop feelings for her and subconsciously superimpose Ikuko over his memories of Sayo (in the manga is shown that he connects his memories of Sayo to Ikuko).
As his memory started to return he might have subconsciously rejected her because she's not Sayo, believing his feelings were misguided... to finally reconcile with them and accept Ikuko as her own person and not as a replacement for Sayo.

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Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
If my theory is true, it brings the meta world extremely close to what happens in Rokkenjima Prime, which I take as a very good thing. But shouldn't Touya know the truth before writing the forgeries based on him saying he gave ideas and Ikuko wrote the stories? I don't want to think it's totally unimportant, but I think his role as the idea man might have been greater in the mystery novels they wrote together before starting the forgeries. Alternatively, could this theory work if you switched Ikuko and Touya's roles? Featherine did say she was looking at the stories through Battler, but I think it's more about observing Touya's thoughts than literally acting as his past self in the meta world.
Alternatively it could be that Tohya read Confession and therefore knew the truth but didn't remember it.
So he wrote the forgeries knowing the truth and Battler slowly reaching the truth actually represent Tohya slowly recovering Battler's memories and feelings and coming to terms with Sayo's feelings as well.

If he has no memories he doesn't know Battler's feelings for Sayo and, even though Sayo's motive is spelled out loud and clear he might still have troubles understanding it.
To him she would be an unknown, unlucky servant girl that due to a childish promise that wasn't kept and her own circumstances, caused a massacre.
He might have had a hard time emphatizing with her at first and only slowly grew to understand her perspective and the fact in the past he had harboured feelings for her as well.

In this case the truth would be more an 'emotional understanding' that just a general understanding of how things worked.

LOL, just a theory though. I'm still hoping for the manga to give us more info.
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Old 2015-03-25, 09:46   Link #35015
Inbuiltx9
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Rosa and Maria and Sakutarou = Battler and Sayo and Beato

I found out Beatos motive now. You can see it in ep 4 with the scene when Maria as a black witch is taking revenge on Rosa.

Rosa created Sakutarou <=> Battler “created” Beato, well, at least he is partly responsible for it - Featerine ep 6: “Beato was Battlers piece”

The main person that created Sakutarou though was Maria <=> the main person that created Beato was Sayo

Rosa is never there for Maria, Sakutarou is, he tells Maria to believe in Rosa - "she loves you, dont worry"- and to be happy, he supports her and is necessary for her <=> Episode 7: Beato supports Shannon/Sayo, she is telling her to believe in Battler - "he loves you, dont worry "-and to be happy, Beato is necessary for Sayo/Shannon to be happy

Rosa destroys Sakutarou, she denies him, so Sakutarou “dies” in Marias world <=> Battler denies Beato, so Beato “dies” in Sayos world

Of course, the main person that “kills” Sakutarou is Maria and only she can revive him <=> the main person who kills beato is Sayo and only she can revive her, “Who killed Beatrice?” A: Sayo (ep 7)

Marias one-sided love for Rosa <=> Sayos one-sided love for Battler

Just substitute “Battlers” name for “Rosas” name here, “Beato” for “Sakutarou” and “Sayo” for “Maria”. ep 4:

Beato:“Remember your promise Rosa!”
Maria to rosa: “Sakutarou was always there for me, but you weren’t! How dare you kill Sakutarou. He was my only friend.”

Battler denies Beato and thereby tortures Sayo, Sayo is becoming a bad witch and that lives for the sake of revenge.

please take a look at the scene in ep 4 when Maria is taking revenge on Rosa and kills her multiple times. I found a youtube video that starts exactly at the point with the Rosa-scene

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcyT...WzWQn&index=13

So concerning my theory about Battler being locked in a closed room.. Im just gonna quote the beginning of the scene:

Rosa wakes up in a dark room…

“Silent. Black. Cold. Painful. Rosa regained consciousness bit by bit.And the first thing she thought,was that it would have been better if she hadnt. After all, with her body this cold and hurting,…it became more painful the more her consciousness returned.It felt like she had been sleeping on ice-cold marble for a long time.[…]I wonder…where this is…[…]Without a doubt there was some source of light, but even if I looked up at the ceiling…or else the sky, there was only an expanse of blackness, and I couldn’t see a proper light.My body alone was slightly lit, whereas everthing else was sunk in darkness..thats what this world was like. It was almost as though Rosa alone had been abandoned in a forgotten world. As her mind grew clearer she started getting nervous about why she was all alone in a lonely place like this.”

Now, if you substitute “Battler” for “Rosa” +

Battler ep 6:” I remember waking up in a room I didn’t know. Incredibly lonely and sobbing.”

After that Sakutarou (Beato) still tries to save “Rosa” from the room, but “Rosa” (Battler) denies her. And after having denied "Sakutarou" (Beato) and through that having killed him (her), “Maria” (Sayo) appears and takes her revenge for that.

This is “Beatos” motive. Or better said: its not Beato that is taking revenge on him in Prime, but Sayo after she became a “black witch”.

And that’s why Beato in the meta wants Battler to understand her. So he can make it out alive of the room. So they can stop the eternal torture, because Battler too is hurting Sayo by denying Beato.
It was probably like this: Battler thought his family were the murderers at the end of prime, beato wanted to help him and carry the responsability herself "I wont let a human be the culprit! Just make me the culprit! Why wont anyone believe in me?" (ep 5 beato). Battler denied the witch and that made Sayo pretty angry. The rest we see in the Rosa scene.

Meta and real-word overlap???

If you take a look at the scene, you notice how its emphasized that rosa lies on one side of the face. and that that part hurts her if she thinks about sakutarou. I dont know yet what this means, but it probably has something to do with memory-loss and someone being hit on the head before. also: wasnt touya in the manga shown only with a half of his face? and didnt they always talk about "half of the head being smashed in" in the games? I still have to solve this...Edit: but it could mean that: the meta is occuring simultaneously with the real world. battler sees the meta and at the same time, he sees reality. so hed be "half-dead" at that point in time...I dont want to say his head was smashed in - you wouldnt be alive anymore if that happened...but that it symbolized probably that someone hit him on the head. actually that makes A LOT of sense, because beatos comment about being afraid to open the cat-box and see if the cat is alive or dead would still fit, and it would be perfectly in line with the mystery-fantasy relation in beatos games - they also occur simultaneously, then the longer sayos little "game" goes on in the room, the more he goes into the meta, the more fantasy-creatures appear, the more the corrosion of the witch is spreading, the more he dies until he completely dies when he drowns in the meta...sayo is reading him her stories in reality and that would explain why he is still "living" the stories. And why in ep 1, in the tea-party, the narrator is beato "the stupid, arrogant battler didnt believe in the witch, the wise maria knew that a witch was the culprit" etc. and why kyrie says in ep 1 shes envious of battler, she too wants to be able to get out!! "Rosas" head hurts when she gets in contact with sakutarou (a child of fantasy) "this child was hurting her" because the meta is actually killing battler. beatos red truth: please kill me, if you dont, you'll die!". I guess Ill have to write a seperate post for this

This I still want to write now though: Beato ep 4" Cant I win? Do I have to endlessly harass Battler? I dont want that![...] I cant die yet, please Battler, kill me. Only you can do it". Ok, Im still thinking about it, but its possible that Beato has two sources of her acting - her own will and her being controlled by Sayos story. And that would create the two contradicting goals she has: "Believe in the witch" (Sayos goal) and "I want battler to win and understand my heart!" (Beatos goal). That would explain why she is "faking" to win and always tries to give Battler hints. And this "do I have to..." actually sounds like there is someone making her do what she does...And I think she wants to be killed by him because she knows that if she wins and battler believes in her, he'll "die" by completely entering the meta. Im still thinking though...with this I could be wrong...




Alice in Wonderland

Oh also:
Battler is already “dead” (edit:half-dead?) when he is in the meta. I always compared it to Alice in Wonderland, well in ep 4 they are randomly talking about clothes: this popped up- for Beato a good dress would be “Alice and the graveyard”. Guess it really is "alice in the land of the dead"...


Length of the chain has a meaning

The long chain Battler is talking about in ep 6 when he is in the locked room – when he says its quite long and it reaches far into the floor- probably doesn’t refer to the actual chain in prime, but to the fact that he can leave the “locked room” (meta-world) not completely but at least for some distance- like he does in his Dawn-ending. Hes still bound to the meta there, but he can at least get away from the island (and reach as far as Hachijou island).


Sayo didnt die in 1986, Beato did though
Erika – shot with a gun right in the middle of her chest. Kanon – shot with a gun right in the middle of his chest. As I said – Erika represents another part of Sayo. Appearantly, personalities of Sayo can die after being shot. Beato was shot like that in prime Sayo doesn’t die though, as we can see in ep 2 when Sayo doesn’t care a bit about the hole in her chest. (the "Kanon" that is Sayo in ep 2 to kumasawa, shannon, gouda, genji: "what this? I dont care about this! See? It doesnt hurt at all!"). “Beato” was shot in prime, Sayo survives though.

Heaven and hell-talk

Virgilia to Beato:
“You can take his hand and lead him to heaven, or you can embrace him and go to hell with him”.
In Ep 4 beato embraces him, and the tips say he went to hell after that. In ep 6 when Beato arrives in the chapel, she says they are now in hell.
Beato to Battler: “without my approval, you cant leave”
“taking his hand” means: letting him go out of the room but thereby risking that he may leave her again
“embracing him” means not letting him go and afterwards, its truly hell, for him and for her. I already explained what shes doing to him, and he keeps torturing Sayo by denying the witch..
This lasts for years (“eternal torture”) and I already said its especially bad after battler “died” in prime, so that’s why Beato calls the scene in the chapel where they are repeating what happened in prime “hell”. You can get out of purgatory, but you cant get out of hell. When battler cant solve the riddle for beatos heart anymore because he "died" (is in the locked room) he cant get out anymore and neither can Sayo be released from hell, cause he cant come to understand her.


Ikuko IS Sayo

At the end of ep 6, when Beato plays different roles and says she can become anything, it just shows that she really can become anything – Shannon, Kanon, Beato, Erika, Ikuko…a woman who doesn’t let anyone read her novels, the same as battler didn’t let anyone read his book. A woman who likes mystery-novels, who helps him cope with his memories. Like I said, Sayo saves "Battler" (already Touya at this point) from the island and becomes his ideal woman - Ikuko. So even though Ikuko lied to him, she appearantly is not a "bad" character.



Last part I thought about:
Erika differentiates between body, mind and soul
I had the idea that it is: gameboard – soul (mystery), meta – mind (fantasy), body- prime (horror/drama)

So maybe when in Our Confessions they said Ryukishi would reveal two stories, and he will never reveal the third one…I just hope he’ll show the “body”-part. Though Im not really doubting anything anymore about my theory…

Last edited by Inbuiltx9; 2015-03-25 at 17:23.
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Old 2015-03-25, 11:09   Link #35016
Inbuiltx9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
You know, now that I re-read the scene, I agree with you that the one on the balcony at first is the character Beatrice and is taken over by Sayo. And no, it's not Shannon who appears on the balcony, it's Yasuda Sayo.
Agreed

Quote:
I don't think it matters at all how early we know about it in this case. As Touya says, the ring was referred to early on, as both the ring of the head and the engagement ring appear in EP1. But we do not know for sure the full implications they carry before a bit later. If Touya mentions the ring in EP8, why do you think the ring he refers to the ring in EP6 specifically and not the other rings appearing in Umineko as a whole?
Yes, you're probably right - the ring refers to every! ring we see in Umineko. But I also think that: this includes Erikas ring as well. Because its a "marriage" ring.

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Well, Umineko would be full of weirdness if we didn't interpret some stuff abstractly, hehe.
It sure would Ok, I still think the ring-scene is just screaming "this-is-what-we-are-referring-to", but I wont say you cant be more abstract. Guess on this point we'll have to disagree

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I'm so sorry, I didn't mean to make it so you'd be forced to answer to any more than you want to, especially after you already seemed so awkward about your solution. I meant it more like you can still choose what you'd like the solution to be, and I'm here to give you alternatives to your way of thinking so you wouldn't feel you have to think of this as the correct solution if you don't want to. If you think your solution fits thematically and isn't unnecessarily dark, then I guess it is good enough, even if I disagree.
hehe, its a bit like someone telling me: "all the animals in the world who are butchered are in fact very happy". Id like to believe that, but I cant do it. And by telling me "why dont you just think differently?" it sounds like I want the animals to suffer... Its not that, I came up with my theory just by putting the hints we get together. And Im still sticking to it, and I write it down here because it kinda feels like an epiphany now that I reread some scenes Did you read my recent post about rosa? Maybe youll see what I mean...

If I am allowed to explain a bit, because the umineko-fandom generally is reminding me a bit of it:P Im just writing it here, so that you get a better idea why Im so stuck on my theory, and that Im not just some kind of weirdo
Im in a room, next to me is another room. I hear something that sounds like someone was thrown against the wall.I run over. What I find is: There is one guy with a black eye, the mark of a fist is still on his face, some blood is running from his eye over his face, he is lying next to the wall. Theres another guy who is perfectly fine, standing there, but has some blood on his fist. What happened? Probably this: the second guy hit the first guy, who was thrown against the wall by the impact.
What the umineko-fandom is often doing (like rosatrice-fans for example-sorry, rosatrice fans), is the following: they say: "no, the first guy could have stumbled over a shoe that maybe lay around there and fell against the wall. By that he hurt his eye. Before that happened, they could have drawn something on their faces and now it looks like theres a mark of a fist on the face of the first guy . The second guy probably tried to help the first one up after falling, thats how he got blood on his hand."
Of course, that is possible. But people often are "dehinting" the hints - meaning there are hints for something, but they just brush it aside and construct something else with something that was never mentioned, like the "shoe" that lies around in the room. But "every necessary clue must be present for the solution". Same for example with the locked room - when battler says he remembers a horrible family-gathering, people keep saying: "it could have been another family-gathering", even though we never heard of another one that was supposed to be horrible. Battler even says he never realized how bad the mood was on the family-gatherings, cause the adults would try to hide it from them. No hint was ever given for another "family gathering" that deserved the predicate "horrible". And no info was given that says what the room, battler talks about, is supposed to be about - other than the ones I already mentioned. So what are we supposed to do with this info we get about a locked room? it would be completely worthless if we dont use the hint, thats what I mean when I say "dehinting" the hint, because its no "hint" anymore -it leads nowhere. like the mark of the fist on his face - yes, they could have drawn something, but we never get any info that they did. The "hint" of a mark leads nowhere now. It could be a birthmark, it could be an imagination by me who entered the room, it could be a shadow reflected on his face...But wed have to get info about that or it wouldnt be solvable since every solution would be equally possible, But that cant be. We are supposed to be able to reconstruct what happened in prime, but with "dehinting" the hints we have 1000 and more theories that are all equally possible. That is not what "its meant to be solvable" can mean. And now, since everything fits, and even beatos motive for doing what she did is contained in the story (recent post), I cant think otherwise but that my theory is probably correct :S Umineko is quite brutal anyways, and there was never any taboo-topic, but even if this is a really disturbing solution, Ill stick to it. From a narratological point of view, I also cant help but think that its one of the best stories ever written.
Battler - who resembles Kinzo so much - would be taking on the revenge of Beato, the grandchild of Beatrice. Beatrice was abused by Kinzo, and at the end of the story and with Battler being the way he is, they finally end this hatred between them. "Battler was able to grasp happiness quite easily,, something I couldnt do" (ep 4). I cant help but think that its written really well.

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It is piece Battler who dies by being eaten by goats. Meta Battler who represents Prime Battler is not affected by it, I believe.
Yes, I thought so too, in the beginning. But isnt piece-battler the detective? he cant see beato (who is already dead at that point) nor can he see kinzo. And later on beato says to meta-battler"I thought you'd given up down to your very soul". And its meta-battler that is hugging his knees afterwards and feeling depressed and that Bern encourages to get back up on his feet. So while it certainly is primarily piece-battler there, meta-battler is somehow affected by it, or not? If Im right that its "soul-mind-body" (recent post), that would explain it a bit...

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Beato wanted you to solve it, so she made this game, the riddles of this tale, solvable.
Sayo in CotGW: "All of these message bottles are made in a way that, if you follow all of the many rules, you will be able to unveil the culprit."

I'm sure you know most of this, but the whole idea of a mystery is that we can solve it ourselves before the answers are given. The clues later on and the answers are a way to make the correct solution more apparent and to check our answer, but it doesn't mean we cannot reach the answers before reading them. We cannot be sure of our answer or all the details, but the possibility must exist. It is possible to solve Umineko in some form with just EP1, but it is difficult and the minute details of the answer will be up to imagination. We can make a good theory about what the tests in EP4 mean without further episodes, but we cannot confirm the answer until later.

The wedding in EP6 is the same thing. By the time we read that wedding scene, we should have some theories already. If at that point you have a theory that Kuwadorian Beatrice was sexually abused, it would feel like you are on to the correct solution the wedding scene if you connect it with the other allusions to her and Kinzou's relationship. If you have a theory that Battler was sexually abused instead, you would also feel you're on the right path.

When you read EP7, the answer about Kuwadorian Beatrice is given. If you had the first theory, you would think that "I was correct, that must be what the wedding scene hinted at". If you had the second theory, you would have multiple options. You could think that "this is what the wedding scene probably hinted at, I must have been wrong". Or you could think "I didn't expect that, but because of the wedding scene I believe Battler too was abused".

What I'm getting at is that the hint's meaning might have been answered already. Of course, it is never a bad thing to take a hint multiple ways and I do not know the correct answer any better than you do. I've been talking about this for way too long, as it's not that much of a big deal. But are you sure you are not trying to answer a question the author never asked you to answer?
Aaaah! I understand what you mean - you agree with me that we cant solve it in detail until we get the solutions in later games (like for example with the tests) but you think that we should at least have gotten HINTS for us to solve it by that point in time right? So if I say -ep 6 is about something that completely relies on the info we only get in ep 7, its impossible right?

Actually, we DO get the hint before the first thing I thought about when beato talked about her past in ep 3 was that there was a child from the first beatrice. and with the time the mansion was built it resulted that the second beatrice died when she was ~15 years old. At first I had a problem with connecting it to a third child -I thought the second beatrice was the only beatrice. but the ages didnt match.

In ep 5 though when kinzo gave the child away because it was a boy and not a girl, ("who needs an empty vessel? I knew this would happen, Natsuhi"), I thought that there was a third child (Though I still had a problem with the boy-girl stuff back then). And with the second beatrice being 15 when she had died, I just didnt know who would make her pregnant at this age.... She already had the child by that time when she died, so she must have been 14!!! (or even younger) when she got pregnant. By that point in time I was sure she was abused. No adult in his right mind would sleep with a 14-year-old girl. And the way beatrice was, like a child, I couldnt imagine shed willingly be doing that.

Also: we knew from beatos story ep 3 that the first beatrice killed herself. So we knew kinzo was kind of obsessed with the woman and didnt show normal love (not that that hadnt been emphasized enough already)

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You shouldn't assume Ikuko lives on Hachijou Island just because of the name and therefore assume she was lying. The house Ange visits in EP6 is on the mainland, because she leaves for Niijima after that. It is probably the same house in EP8 too, though it isn't shown from the outside in EP6.
Hehe, no way will I believe Hachijou Ikuko is not living on Hachijou island I mean the current-hint is exactly for that. Ryukishi has always done that stuff, we would have never been able to solve the epitaph if it werent for hints like that. The surname "hachijou"imo exists just for this hint to work. And what would the current-hint be for? Remember: "there are no unnecessary clues".
Hmm, while I admit that it appeared to be on the mainland- I should take a look at the scene if there are clues- its really not surprising that Ange left for Niijima. Because no other boat in that area would go near Rokkenjima, except for this one guy that lives on Niijima. So if the meeting was scheduled on that day, its natural that Ange would go to Hachijou island only to leave for Niijima afterwards.

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What do you mean by "considering it all a book"? About forgiving Erika, she didn't do all that in Prime. And no actual sexual abuse happened at the wedding in the meta world, though she did many other horrible things.
Sorry, I didnt explain that, I meant that there are people who think Touya and Ikuo wrote the meta. I know though that you think otherwise Yes, that didnt happen, but she sure planned it :S And Erika also locked him in the creepy room for years. If he can easily forgive her for that than I suppose he can forgive even more. Also: Battler forgives everything anyways XD He forgave Beato after ep 2 too and after ep 3. She killed him several times at the beginning of ep 3 too with the seven stakes and he still forgave her. Well since I see that as his main and most important character trait, and THE central point of the story - him being able to stop the cycle of hatred with this thinking - I dont have a problem with him forgiving absolutely everything. Especially if he considers everything to be his fault in the first place..

Last edited by Inbuiltx9; 2015-03-25 at 14:26.
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Old 2015-03-25, 17:56   Link #35017
Bluemail
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Finland
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Oh, thank you! And now I understand why I couldn't find it. When I had to change my pc I didn't have the chance to reinstall the games but I kept the transcriptions of the games. Somehow that bit got lost in my transcription.
I think they might have added lines to the VN version and your transcript could be from the older physical text version.

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If I've to try and connect the ring to George and Sayo instead I think that at best it could reflect her fear of losing herself by marrying to George, more than her fear of George.
Never once Shannon seems to be scared of George as someone who could hurt her but she's afraid of him rejecting her, of the fact that if she were to tie herself to him she'll lose her chance to be with Battler and believes that, in order to be accepted by him, she would have to toss away some parts of herself.
I agree. But Beato did say in her outburst in EP2 that love is lust and Shannon would be disappointed once she learned George was no better than any other man.

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Also, Ep 2 & 6 present quite a negative view of sex which might be nothing else but a reflection to Sayo's fears. Her mother was raped, she seems to believe her grandmother could have been raped as well (in ep 3 Beatrice will tell the tale of how she met Kinzo and it's implied Kinzo forced himself on her while in ep 4 Beatrice described how Kinzo did horrible things to her... and what's more she says Battler will be allowed to do that to her as well if he'll pass the test) and her body is damaged. We don't know exactly how damaged it is but it had been speculated she could have troubles having a normal sex life.
I'm not sure if you mean the same thing I do, but when Beato tells about the horrible things Kinzou did to her in EP4 she could be acting as the combination of all three Beatrices and talks of their experiences as her own. Being reduced to furniture by him and being controlled fits her own person too, though, turned into a piece on Kinzou and Genji's game board.

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The problem would be that Beatrice and Battler are the only ones who've the title of endless. Virgilia is the finite witch.
While I think that Ikuko can definitely be represented by Virgilia (but this let me wonder 'then who's Ronove?') I see her as a mere support while, unless I'm misunderstanding you, you seem to see her as much more in control.
I might be wrong though. If there's a thing about Ikuko I've always hated is that there are no enough info about her and that I can't get a clear grasp about her.
Virgilia is still just support. Ikuko continues Beatrice's game in-character, but on the side tries to make the game easier for both parties, and this manifests as Virgilia supporting them.

About Ronove, maybe he is somehow linked to a head butler the Hachijous have or he's a combination of all the servants in their house. This would be mixed with the Ronove character Sayo had already created. While the servants aren't in control of the writing or anything, Ronove might be there to make it easier to translate meta scenes to the real world. Perhaps they actually talk to the servants about their writings?

Maybe the reason it's hard to grasp Ikuko's character with the info we have been given is because we're supposed to do what I'm doing with her now: explaining Ikuko with the characters we've already met, so in a way she's been part of the cast all along.

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In a way I've also thought chick Beato too represent Ikuko. Beatrice is the living embodiement of the rules of the gameboard but this can be a parallelism to say that she's the product of certain circumstances. Battler fell in love with Sayo due to their mystery connection and Tohya has a mystery connection with Ikuko which might have caused him to develop feelings for her and subconsciously superimpose Ikuko over his memories of Sayo (in the manga is shown that he connects his memories of Sayo to Ikuko).
As his memory started to return he might have subconsciously rejected her because she's not Sayo, believing his feelings were misguided... to finally reconcile with them and accept Ikuko as her own person and not as a replacement for Sayo.
I like this, it fits well with EP6's narrative!

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Alternatively it could be that Tohya read Confession and therefore knew the truth but didn't remember it.
So he wrote the forgeries knowing the truth and Battler slowly reaching the truth actually represent Tohya slowly recovering Battler's memories and feelings and coming to terms with Sayo's feelings as well.

If he has no memories he doesn't know Battler's feelings for Sayo and, even though Sayo's motive is spelled out loud and clear he might still have troubles understanding it.
To him she would be an unknown, unlucky servant girl that due to a childish promise that wasn't kept and her own circumstances, caused a massacre.
He might have had a hard time emphatizing with her at first and only slowly grew to understand her perspective and the fact in the past he had harboured feelings for her as well.

In this case the truth would be more an 'emotional understanding' that just a general understanding of how things worked.

LOL, just a theory though. I'm still hoping for the manga to give us more info.
I'm not sure myself how far it's safe to go with connecting Battler and Touya's actions, as it's clearly emphasized that Touya became his own person when he lost his memories. Also, if we are to connect Touya to Will, he says he understood Beatrice's identity in EP4 when he saw how important Battler's sin was to her. This could mean Touya learned the truth before Battler by calmly connecting the sin to Shannon's lines in their first forgery. On the other hand Meta Battler, who took everything more personally and was angry at Beatrice, couldn't remember. This still means Touya did not know before they already started writing, which brings it back to Ikuko learning the truth first and playing the part of Beatrice.

Maybe Battler's identity crisis where he almost disappeared in EP4 could be taken as the point where Touya and Battler's narratives truly separated? This could also be the point where Touya got hurt so bad he ended up in a wheelchair. Did their paths join again at EP6?

What if Lambda's loveless game was a result of Touya joining the writing on the witch's side? Maybe Lambda and Bern conspiring together could be taken as Touya and Ikuko conspiring together to frame Natsuhi, perhaps to end the speculation about Rokkenjima with a false truth. Was Ikuko still responsible for the extra hints guiding Battler in the meta world? Is Ikuko Lambda, or is she Bern, Featherine's miko? Do they even have specific roles any more? Maybe it comes to the question which one wanted to write Battler more cool and competent?

After Touya reached the truth with EP4, the Battler who still struggled with the solution might represent Touya's thoughts about if he should have any responsibility to his former self. Even Will didn't think very highly of Battler. But when Battler too learned the truth, a sense of duty towards Beatrice and the family of his former identity arose in Touya, and he rewrote the ending to present an equal theory, so neither Natsuhi or Battler could be made to shoulder the crime yet. Then he wrote Dawn to create a better ending for Beatrice.

Hoho, I think we're getting close.

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Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
And that’s why Beato in the meta wants Battler to understand her. So he can make it out alive of the room. So they can stop the eternal torture, because Battler too is hurting Sayo by denying Beato. I always thought Beatos goals were kind of contradicting itself: making battler believe in the witch and wanting him to win. He wins by understanding Beatos heart - he can explain every trick with a human culprit - and at the same time, he will understand what magic meant for Sayo and start to believe in the witch. Its just one goal beato has.
It was probably like this: Battler thought his family were the murderers at the end of prime, beato wanted to help him and carry the responsability herself "I wont let a human be the culprit! Just make me the culprit! Why wont anyone believe in me?" (ep 5 beato). Battler denied the witch and that made Sayo pretty angry. The rest we see in the Rosa scene.
That Rosa and Battler connection is pretty interesting. I think they used the same window background in Battler's closed room even. But how does Battler kill Beatrice without understanding her? I thought she could only be killed when her heart is exposed. You can decide what you do with her heart after exposing it, but you cannot defeat her before that. Or did Sayo kill Beato to save her from the torture? That doesn't work either. Battler torturing Beatrice is a sign that he is at least thinking about a human culprit, which is what Sayo wants. She wants to be understood as the human culprit. This makes the motive in your theory sound like this to me: Battler torturing Beato is a motive for Sayo to torture Battler in revenge so Battler could better torture Beato? It doesn't make sense.

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So maybe when in Our Confessions they said Ryukishi would reveal two stories, and he will never reveal the third one…I just hope he’ll show the “body”-part. Though Im not really doubting anything anymore about my theory…
I have a couple of theories about the third story, I'll share them later.

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hehe, its a bit like someone telling me: "all the animals in the world who are butchered are in fact very happy". Id like to believe that, but I cant do it. And by telling me "why dont you just think differently?" it sounds like I want the animals to suffer... Its not that, I came up with my theory just by putting the hints we get together. And Im still sticking to it, and I write it down here because it kinda feels like an epiphany now that I reread some scenes Did you read my recent post about rosa? Maybe youll see what I mean...
I really didn't try to accuse you of wanting anything bad. Oh hell, maybe I did a little. I apologize. I just don't want Sayo to become the person you are describing if it isn't absolutely necessary. Maybe I am too optimistic, but I'm still not convinced your theory is necessary for understanding Umineko. Let's just keep working together and throwing wrenches in each other's works in a friendly manner and we might eventually reach a consensus. And I know how an epiphany feels, though I have been proven wrong after them as well.

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Of course, that is possible. But people often are "dehinting" the hints - meaning there are hints for something, but they just brush it aside and construct something else with something that was never mentioned, like the "shoe" that lies around in the room. But "every necessary clue must be present for the solution". Same for example with the locked room - when battler says he remembers a horrible family-gathering, people keep saying: "it could have been another family-gathering", even though we never heard of another one that was supposed to be horrible. Battler even says he never realized how bad the mood was on the family-gatherings, cause the adults would try to hide it from them. No hint was ever given for another "family gathering" that deserved the predicate "horrible". And no info was given that says what the room, battler talks about, is supposed to be about - other than the ones I already mentioned. So what are we supposed to do with this info we get about a locked room?
Actually, I checked it properly now and it didn't say the family gathering was horrible, just the memories. It said: "Bad memories from when I was very young began to well up. Horrible, harsh memories... of when started dozing off during a family gathering and was put to sleep in some room I didn't know. I remember waking up there, incredibly lonely and sobbing..." Waking up sobbing sure sounds more like a young child than an 18-year-old, even if Battler is a crybaby. And something like that can be a bad experience to a young child. Is it de-hinting if I say that this might not have a deeper meaning than giving an example of how Battler feels? It can still hint at something else, but it doesn't need to if it can easily be taken at face value. No doubt some form of de-hinting happens, but there is also the concept of red herrings. They too need to connect with something, but perhaps not in a manner one would expect. Of course it's advisable to point out if I'm pulling evidence out of thin air to support my theories or attack others, I hope I haven't done that yet.

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Battler - who resembles Kinzo so much - would be taking on the revenge of Beato, the grandchild of Beatrice. Beatrice was abused by Kinzo, and at the end of the story and with Battler being the way he is, they finally end this hatred between them. "Battler was able to grasp happiness quite easily,, something I couldnt do" (ep 4). I cant help but think that its written really well.
Her goal is not to make someone experience fear. And it isn't to have revenge on someone either.

I think Umineko is very well written too, or I wouldn't still be here making theories. It's my favorite story.

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Yes, I thought so too, in the beginning. But isnt piece-battler the detective? he cant see beato (who is already dead at that point) nor can he see kinzo. And later on beato says to meta-battler"I thought you'd given up down to your very soul". And its meta-battler that is hugging his knees afterwards and feeling depressed and that Bern encourages to get back up on his feet. So while it certainly is primarily piece-battler there, meta-battler is somehow affected by it, or not? If Im right that its "soul-mind-body" (recent post), that would explain it a bit...
Ah, I didn't mean that it doesn't affect him at all, just that piece Battler's cause of death doesn't mean meta Battler died in the same way.

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Aaaah! I understand what you mean - you agree with me that we cant solve it in detail until we get the solutions in later games (like for example with the tests) but you think that we should at least have gotten HINTS for us to solve it by that point in time right? So if I say -ep 6 is about something that completely relies on the info we only get in ep 7, its impossible right?
Yes, exactly. What you explained about Kuwadorian Beatrice is probably the correct way to arrive at the solution from the clues. Then, how do you arrive at the theory that Battler was captured and perhaps tortured and sexually abused with just the question arcs? They might be more about Beatrice's games than Prime, but something should still exist if your theory is correct. You've probably mentioned some of them already, but can you remind me?

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Hehe, no way will I believe Hachijou Ikuko is not living on Hachijou island I mean the current-hint is exactly for that. Ryukishi has always done that stuff, we would have never been able to solve the epitaph if it werent for hints like that. The surname "hachijou"imo exists just for this hint to work. And what would the current-hint be for? Remember: "there are no unnecessary clues".
Actually, Hachijou hints at a connection to Hanyuu, similar to how Featherine is derived from the kanjis in Hanyuu's name. Hachi can be read as Ya, Jou can be read as Shiro. Hachijou = Yashiro. Oyashiro.

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Hmm, while I admit that it appeared to be on the mainland- I should take a look at the scene if there are clues- its really not surprising that Ange left for Niijima. Because no other boat in that area would go near Rokkenjima, except for this one guy that lives on Niijima. So if the meeting was scheduled on that day, its natural that Ange would go to Hachijou island only to leave for Niijima afterwards.
Possible, but I think they still had the same car with them. Would they carry that all the way to Hachijou Island?

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Sorry, I didnt explain that, I meant that there are people who think Touya and Ikuo wrote the meta. I know though that you think otherwise Yes, that didnt happen, but she sure planned it :S And Erika also locked him in the creepy room for years. If he can easily forgive her for that than I suppose he can forgive even more. Also: Battler forgives everything anyways XD He forgave Beato after ep 2 too and after ep 3. She killed him several times at the beginning of ep 3 too with the seven stakes and he still forgave her. Well since I see that as his main and most important character trait, and THE central point of the story - him being able to stop the cycle of hatred with this thinking - I dont have a problem with him forgiving absolutely everything. Especially if he considers everything to be his fault in the first place..
Yes, I don't believe the meta is literally written like that. It's more like a side-effect of what Touya and Ikuko do. About Battler, you're right, that's the kind of guy he is. His naivety and optimism is both his greatest strength and weakness, and if he can understand someone, he can forgive them. I like to believe I'm similar. But I don't understand the Sayo in your theory yet, so I can't forgive her or accept her as the culprit.
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Old 2015-03-25, 21:17   Link #35018
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
I think they might have added lines to the VN version and your transcript could be from the older physical text version.
Might be.

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Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
I agree. But Beato did say in her outburst in EP2 that love is lust and Shannon would be disappointed once she learned George was no better than any other man.
I've interpreted that line as Sayo wishing George would accept her even if she has a body unable to love (Shannon talking about their souls being connected and all) but at the same time fearing that if George were to know the truth about how her body couldn't satisfy him, he would reject her (ence Beato's talk about men and lust).
Considering the truth behind this scene as shown in Ep 7 and in the interview is that Sayo asked George something and he made a sign of denial/refusal this can match with her feeling rejected due to her body.
Of course as we actually don't know what it was said if she pushed forward a theory or she flat out told him the truth and asked him if he could still accept her but I'll say her fear is more for his refusal than for him being violent or abusive or closing her up somewhere.

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Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
I'm not sure if you mean the same thing I do, but when Beato tells about the horrible things Kinzou did to her in EP4 she could be acting as the combination of all three Beatrices and talks of their experiences as her own. Being reduced to furniture by him and being controlled fits her own person too, though, turned into a piece on Kinzou and Genji's game board.
Well, it's Sayo who's talking here and she doesn't really know what they went though so I think she's mostly reconstructing the truth using her own interpretation.
In fact the most she knows is that Kinzo took advantage of her mother. While I don't condone what Kinzo did to his own daughter and I think it was totally horrible I can't help but think he didn't do the things Sayo assumed he did with Beatrice.
To her Kinzo didn't just rape the Beatrices he was controlling them, keeping them tied, humiliating them, beating them quite harshly.

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"But please, don't try to chat me up when Kinzo's around, okaay? This guy gets seriously jealous so he has a bad temper, you see?"
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"I'm always alone with you in bed, riiight...? But no more tying me to the bed with a collar, alright?"
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"If you become the next head, you'll be the new owner of everything on this island. ......If it's you, ......I wouldn't mind becoming all yours, see......? Just like Kinzo did, ......control me, okay......?"
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"If you pass, then you will be the next head, and my new master. ......My flesh and soul will be yours to do with as you please. Because I am the Ushiromiya family's furniture! Ahhahhahhahhahha!!"
"............Well, it looks like you want to make me take this test no matter what. ......Alright. I'll take it on. ...If I pass, my first prize will be a punch to your face."
"Scary, scaary... But it's not like I mind being controlled by violence, you see? Grab onto my head! Make my face twist in pain, tear me apart like a hawk does with its talons to its prey, scratch at me and violate me...!!
Aaah, remind me of Kinzo in his younger days once more...!! That single time in my thousand year life! Remind me of that day I was taught the joy of being controlled, surrendering and being reduced to furniture!! Uhyaaahhyahhyahhyahhya!!"
Kinzo's motive for wanting Beatrice was that she made him feel alive/happy to be alive. In Sayo's eyes however his motive for wanting Beatrice was his mad lust for her.
Kinzo is a beast, his 'love' for Beatrice that torments him for years is nothing else but longing for her flesh. There's no bond here nor acceptance.
And what's scariest is that Beatrice here is depicted as willing to accept Kinzo's violence and abuse.
We know that Sayo would have been willing to do everything to be together with someone who'll love her and Beatrice being okay with being abused can be a reference to this.
However here we've again males being represented as guys who lust after a body and Sayo's body isn't, in her own opinion, a body you can lust after.
So, as twisted as this is, I fear she was more scared of the fact that her body would be labelled as unsatisfying and lead her to be rejected than of being physically abused, at least right then by either George or Battler.
But well, considering the state in which she was, it might make sense.

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Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
About Ronove, maybe he is somehow linked to a head butler the Hachijous have or he's a combination of all the servants in their house. This would be mixed with the Ronove character Sayo had already created. While the servants aren't in control of the writing or anything, Ronove might be there to make it easier to translate meta scenes to the real world. Perhaps they actually talk to the servants about their writings?
A head butler is never mentioned though and the manga only shows a maid. Prior to meeting Tohya, Ikuko never talked with anyone else about her writings. While it could be that all of sudden she decided to also include the servants in her mystery chats with Tohya by the end of the story we've no real proof of this.

LOL, I've been wondering if actually Ronove is Tohya who knows the solution but rejects being Battler so it's as if he's working at the problem from two points of view at the same time. However there's no hint that Tohya might use Ronove as a vessel to give hints to his past self so I guess this theory is probably wrong.

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Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
Maybe the reason it's hard to grasp Ikuko's character with the info we have been given is because we're supposed to do what I'm doing with her now: explaining Ikuko with the characters we've already met, so in a way she's been part of the cast all along.
It still doesn't work, as far as I'm involved. I can speculate there are bits of Ikuko in the characters we know, as previously said I can assume she's Virgilia and even tie her to chick Beato but still, as far as I'm involved, there's not enough for me to understand "her heart" with confidence. The best I can say is that at a certain point she honestly cared for Tohya and wanted to help him (probably she fell in love with him as in the original plans she should have married him) but for me there are still holes.
Also, as there's really little about her, we can tie her to way too many characters we've already met with the risk we end up tying her to the wrong characters.

It's entirely possible though that, like in the case with Battler's letter, we weren't required to find a single answer but to have fun speculating, which is why we aren't given an answer.

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Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
I'm not sure myself how far it's safe to go with connecting Battler and Touya's actions, as it's clearly emphasized that Touya became his own person when he lost his memories.
My theory is based on the experience of a person who had to recover from amnesia caused by brain damage. He said not only he lost the memory but also any emotional connection and couldn't enstablish them anymore. When he was reintroduced into his family and regained the notions of his past in the beginning it was just 'notions'. He couldn't connect to it emotionally. He couldn't feel. It took him quite a lot of time to manage to recover his emotions. And Tohya's situation is similar with him remembering facts about his past life but not 'feeling' them.

So I view Tohya as knowing the truth but feeling unconnected to it and Battler, who's represented as the guy who feels a lot, representing that part of himself that slowly makes the transition that helps him to have an emotional connection with the people from his past, even if probably is pretty vague.

For example in the beginning Tohya didn't want to meet Ange but then we see in Ep 8 that it's him who searches for this meeting and Ep 4 might depict Tohya coming to term with the notion Ange isn't just Battler's sister but that he still arbour some sort of care toward her, even if he's not Battler anymore.

In Ep 4 we've Battler believing Ange is a stranger, Gretel, and, when traumatized by the revelation about his mother, rejecting her. It's even mentioned how the bond with his family was weakened. However when he'll be made aware of the things Ange went thought he'll 'remember her' and acknowledge her as his sister. However we'll see he'll still won't be able to go back to her even if he claims he plans to do it. Still in Ep 8 we'll see him thinking it'll be okay if he'll go to Ange and give Ange some time in the Golden Land before sending her on her own way. And in Ep 8 Tohya goes to meet Ange, chats with her and tells her Battler is death, same as Battler did in the game.

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Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
Also, if we are to connect Touya to Will, he says he understood Beatrice's identity in EP4 when he saw how important Battler's sin was to her. This could mean Touya learned the truth before Battler by calmly connecting the sin to Shannon's lines in their first forgery. On the other hand Meta Battler, who took everything more personally and was angry at Beatrice, couldn't remember. This still means Touya did not know before they already started writing, which brings it back to Ikuko learning the truth first and playing the part of Beatrice.
Well, in a way Battler too understood that the whole sin thing was important to Beatrice, very much so, but Battler was unable to do the right connections.
As for Will he understood the truth with 4 games, but according to Sayo just one could have been enough.
But if we go back to working through connecting Tohya emotionally, Battler too understood in Ep 4 that he wronged Beatrice over something that was really important for her.
Tohya might have known who actually was the culprit rationally but until Battler won't make the connection between Beatrice and Sayo in Ep 5, even if Tohya already understood he hurt her in Ep 4, to him she'll still be a stranger, someone with whom he has no connection, so, same as Ange who was 'Gretel', Sayo is 'Beatrice'.
We see that already around the end of Ep 4 Battler's starting to feel something for her but it's only in Ep 5 he truly wants to understand her, which can parallel Tohya truly wanting to remember her. When Battler figures out who's Beatrice and that's too late he's heartbroken... and this can mirror Tohya's feelings as he finally remembers Sayo and emotionally connects with her.

It's just a theory based on a real life experience though.
I've no idea how much Ryukishi researched about this sort of things so I might be completely off track.


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Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
Maybe Battler's identity crisis where he almost disappeared in EP4 could be taken as the point where Touya and Battler's narratives truly separated? This could also be the point where Touya got hurt so bad he ended up in a wheelchair. Did their paths join again at EP6?
I think that point represents Tohya's identity crisis and that when Battler overcomes it the two resume working in parallel, each of them dealing with a part of the puzzle.

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Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
What if Lambda's loveless game was a result of Touya joining the writing on the witch's side? Maybe Lambda and Bern conspiring together could be taken as Touya and Ikuko conspiring together to frame Natsuhi, perhaps to end the speculation about Rokkenjima with a false truth. Was Ikuko still responsible for the extra hints guiding Battler in the meta world? Is Ikuko Lambda, or is she Bern, Featherine's miko? Do they even have specific roles any more? Maybe it comes to the question which one wanted to write Battler more cool and competent?
I want to ponder some more on Ep 5, honestly. I was re-reading a bit of it and it really seemed to push forward the idea that Ep 5 was based on a forgery... and in a way if you consider that in the beginning the GM is Lambda, the player is Bern while the detective is Erika, the game lacks of love, Beatrice is Natsuhi's fantasy and in the beginning neither Battler nor MetaBeato are taking part to it you really get the feeling that the story is totally at odd with the previous setting.

And interesting enough Black Battler doesn't mention him being part of End but says he showed up in Land, Trinity and Bern's game (geez, Ryukishi, what about letting us read them?).

And all this to say... I want to ponder on Ep 5 more. Sorry, I'm not being very helpful, I know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
After Touya reached the truth with EP4, the Battler who still struggled with the solution might represent Touya's thoughts about if he should have any responsibility to his former self. Even Will didn't think very highly of Battler. But when Battler too learned the truth, a sense of duty towards Beatrice and the family of his former identity arose in Touya, and he rewrote the ending to present an equal theory, so neither Natsuhi or Battler could be made to shoulder the crime yet. Then he wrote Dawn to create a better ending for Beatrice.

Hoho, I think we're getting close.
LOL, I never quite got why Will could understand Kinzo's heart but not Battler's, unless of course it was a form of self blaming.
But yes, we're probably getting close.
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Old 2015-03-26, 03:43   Link #35019
Bluemail
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I've interpreted that line as Sayo wishing George would accept her even if she has a body unable to love (Shannon talking about their souls being connected and all) but at the same time fearing that if George were to know the truth about how her body couldn't satisfy him, he would reject her (ence Beato's talk about men and lust).
Considering the truth behind this scene as shown in Ep 7 and in the interview is that Sayo asked George something and he made a sign of denial/refusal this can match with her feeling rejected due to her body.
Of course as we actually don't know what it was said if she pushed forward a theory or she flat out told him the truth and asked him if he could still accept her but I'll say her fear is more for his refusal than for him being violent or abusive or closing her up somewhere.

Well, it's Sayo who's talking here and she doesn't really know what they went though so I think she's mostly reconstructing the truth using her own interpretation.
In fact the most she knows is that Kinzo took advantage of her mother. While I don't condone what Kinzo did to his own daughter and I think it was totally horrible I can't help but think he didn't do the things Sayo assumed he did with Beatrice.
To her Kinzo didn't just rape the Beatrices he was controlling them, keeping them tied, humiliating them, beating them quite harshly.

Kinzo's motive for wanting Beatrice was that she made him feel alive/happy to be alive. In Sayo's eyes however his motive for wanting Beatrice was his mad lust for her.
Kinzo is a beast, his 'love' for Beatrice that torments him for years is nothing else but longing for her flesh. There's no bond here nor acceptance.
And what's scariest is that Beatrice here is depicted as willing to accept Kinzo's violence and abuse.
We know that Sayo would have been willing to do everything to be together with someone who'll love her and Beatrice being okay with being abused can be a reference to this.
However here we've again males being represented as guys who lust after a body and Sayo's body isn't, in her own opinion, a body you can lust after.
So, as twisted as this is, I fear she was more scared of the fact that her body would be labelled as unsatisfying and lead her to be rejected than of being physically abused, at least right then by either George or Battler.
But well, considering the state in which she was, it might make sense.
I absolutely agree with everything! This is how I think it is too. I just brought up the EP2 outburst regarding George because while it isn't Sayo's fear normally, it's an escalated form of it. It's basically Sayo asking herself "what if he is like Kinzou?", and we know what Sayo thinks about Kinzou. Also, when I said she is acting as the combination of Beatrices, I meant it just as you said, that her story is tainted with her own interpretations. Actually, Beatrice Castiglioni killing herself is probably just something Sayo thinks is true. Bice died giving birth, didn't she?

While I didn't think about it that deeply before, Sayo allowing herself to be abused just to be loved in some way is sadly a very possible result of her mindset.

Quote:
A head butler is never mentioned though and the manga only shows a maid. Prior to meeting Tohya, Ikuko never talked with anyone else about her writings. While it could be that all of sudden she decided to also include the servants in her mystery chats with Tohya by the end of the story we've no real proof of this.

LOL, I've been wondering if actually Ronove is Tohya who knows the solution but rejects being Battler so it's as if he's working at the problem from two points of view at the same time. However there's no hint that Tohya might use Ronove as a vessel to give hints to his past self so I guess this theory is probably wrong.
When I said he could be a combination of the servants, I meant as an alternative to having a head butler. Yes, there isn't real proof, it's just a fun idea. Ikuko being secretive about her works goes against this too, so maybe it isn't that literal. The forgeries might be a different beast than her private manuscripts, though.

Both Ronove and Virgilia were added into the story to give extra clues. So at first they are both 'controlled' by Ikuko, then Touya starts using them himself later. I rather like the idea that Ronove and Virgilia could be Touya and Ikuko talking to Battler in EP5. Virgilia tries to motivate Battler to find Beatrice's true motives and Ronove tells Battler how their new game is loveless and Battler should do something about it, or else they are going to kill Beatrice unhonorably.

Quote:
It still doesn't work, as far as I'm involved. I can speculate there are bits of Ikuko in the characters we know, as previously said I can assume she's Virgilia and even tie her to chick Beato but still, as far as I'm involved, there's not enough for me to understand "her heart" with confidence. The best I can say is that at a certain point she honestly cared for Tohya and wanted to help him (probably she fell in love with him as in the original plans she should have married him) but for me there are still holes.
Also, as there's really little about her, we can tie her to way too many characters we've already met with the risk we end up tying her to the wrong characters.
That's true, but we can try!

Quote:
It's entirely possible though that, like in the case with Battler's letter, we weren't required to find a single answer but to have fun speculating, which is why we aren't given an answer.
Or Ikuko and Touya's is the third story Ryuukishi wanted us to reach by ourselves. However, I think the third story may have already been revealed, through Confession of the Golden Witch.

Quote:
It's just a theory based on a real life experience though.
I've no idea how much Ryukishi researched about this sort of things so I might be completely off track.
I think you might be very close to the truth with this!

Quote:
I want to ponder some more on Ep 5, honestly. I was re-reading a bit of it and it really seemed to push forward the idea that Ep 5 was based on a forgery... and in a way if you consider that in the beginning the GM is Lambda, the player is Bern while the detective is Erika, the game lacks of love, Beatrice is Natsuhi's fantasy and in the beginning neither Battler nor MetaBeato are taking part to it you really get the feeling that the story is totally at odd with the previous setting.

And interesting enough Black Battler doesn't mention him being part of End but says he showed up in Land, Trinity and Bern's game (geez, Ryukishi, what about letting us read them?).
I do think it's possible End is based on someone's rougher forgery or at least a Natsuhi culprit theory on the internet Touya and Ikuko took interest in. But Beatrice isn't just Natsuhi's fantasy. Shannon and Kanon are helping Krauss's family maintain the illusion of Kinzou, and this is seen as the Beatrice under Natsuhi's control. She is also representing the rule that everything magical on Rokkenjima, like Kinzou's resurrection, is attributed to Beatrice.

In EP5 wanting to be understood by Battler does not factor into the plan at all, nor does the epitaph, because Battler is an accomplice and the letter of challenge did not appear. This is why piece Beatrice doesn't know what's happening, and the murders do not stop when the epitaph is solved. The culprit of EP5 boils down to a Sayo who never invented rule Z: "Please, somebody stop me", which is the last rule she invented that she wouldn't have done without love. This actually fits with Lambda being the game master as well, because rule Z is what stops Sayo from "certainly" winning, so she removed it.

Black Battler might not have been part of End because he isn't really the culprit in that one, it's just a theory. But does this mean he would have been in Land? I thought Beatrice would never have Battler as the culprit.

Last edited by Bluemail; 2015-03-26 at 09:59.
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Old 2015-03-26, 13:45   Link #35020
Leslie Chow
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Join Date: Feb 2015
Quote:
though I think it's a pity he doesn't have a storymore with Beato and with Kanon as well. His interaction with them is also interesting.
In Ougon Musou Kyoku CROSS, if you pair Battler and Kanon together, Battler becomes the culprit and Kanon assists him in the murders. Their story mode seems to be like a sequel of sorts to Forgery XXX then it ends with Beatrice telling them "Good work".

Quote:
Or Ikuko and Touya's is the third story Ryuukishi wanted us to reach by ourselves. However, I think the third story may have already been revealed, through Confession of the Golden Witch.
I think CotGW is just an extension of the majority of EP7 with added elements of Umineko Our Confession. But I think the third layer is simply connecting the dots of the story, since CotGW isn't really that complete. But nonetheless, CotGW and EP7 manga shows majority of the solutions anyway.

Quote:
Black Battler might not have been part of End because he isn't really the culprit in that one, it's just a theory. But does this mean he would have been in Land? I thought Beatrice would never have Battler as the culprit.
As pointed out by JJ, B. Battler may be the Battler that doesn't support Shannon's and George's relationship. It is most likely that while Sayo was making her forgeries, she had a fantasy that Battler would take her away by force and that they would become the culprits in Rokkenjima incident like in their story mode in Ougon Musou Kyoku Cross. And thus Land of the Golden Witch was created.

Miscellaneous:

Has anybody defeated B.Battler in Ougon Musou Kyoku CROSS and with which characters? I used Battler and Beatrice.
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