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Old 2015-04-14, 15:22   Link #35081
Bluemail
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
Omg, please just stop it already. You are only embarrassing yourself here. Is THIS the best you have, ignoring everything else that surrounds it and fixing on one sole argument? No its not the best I have OF COURSE, I provided thousand other clues. But I dont even care with you anymore, Im gonna be as arrogant as I want now: You dont get the story-writing of Umineko at all. You havent before, and you still dont. You read everything in a literal way and dont see the million clues there are. I bet you never were even close to solving the epitaph-riddle right? Or what happened between Battler and Sayo. Your kinda thinking makes you one of the readers Ryukishi insulted in Umineko, excuse me: it would be "Featherine" in your case - the ones who dont think further. I hope its the age discrepance between us, I know that teenagers in a certain age still arent able to think abstract. Maybe thats the reason. If its not that, I dont see the point in discussing anything with you anymore, because honestly: you just dont get it. And this is a waste of my time.
Here you really notice how Umineko is intended to be read by adults...
You're embarrassing yourself more than AuraTwilight with this post. You shouldn't assume someone's age or try to deem yourself superior based on silly claims like "teenagers in a certain age still aren't able to think abstract." There are actually a lot of adults who lack in the ability to think abstractly and a lot of young people who are smarter than some adults. Actually, in the case of the "fatal blow", isn't it you who is thinking literally? I think "adults" dismissing children because of their age is ultimately childish, like middle school kids trying to act older than they are. I'm also pretty sure Aura isn't a teenager (sorry if I'm calling you old, Aura!).

I did read through all of your theory, but could you perhaps provide a summary so I could more efficiently tackle some of the parts that interest me? I think you're close to what I think at moments, but miss the mark at others. The quotes have been inspirational though, not having had a proper re-read in ages. I believe most of what you said can still be explained as happening in Touya's head instead of literally on Rokkenjima Prime. I find a certain charm in translating scenes as literal events on Prime, but the explanations become needlessly convoluted sometimes because of that.

Food for thought: if one is to claim Umineko is a succesful mystery, shouldn't the truth be the most apparent one after the key to the solutions has been given? Of course, it is also implied that Prime is not exactly a mystery, so these rules do not necessarily apply to it, and what is apparent of course sometimes depends on the person.
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Old 2015-04-14, 17:12   Link #35082
Leslie Chow
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Imo Battler and Beato "enter" their pieces in the story just the same as Ange did in ep 8. And the same applies to Erika.
But Ange is not even part of the catbox and is a piece of a higher plane (Bernkastel). Plus, if Battler entered his piece in the story, then he should have stopped the murders from happening in later games. Also in EP5, Piece Battler wasn't controlled by Meta-Battler but by Bernkastel.

Quote:
But my main point is: It says even on the page you linked: "So Battler had no choice but to admit it, that the witch truly did exist". You could of course say their connection was "lost" at this point. But the reason meta-battler completely gave up in the first place, was that he heard Beatos explanation and "everything made sense" ("its plausibe, so its the truth?" - same thing happened in prime). In any case, Piece-Battler succumbs to the magic-explanation because he stopped thinking.
It is the same as acknowledging that the culprit was the witch. A witch because she could use magic. Magic, is a phenomenon that cannot be explained, but is possible through human tricks.

And the questions that he asked later on at 11:30 PM.

http://mangafox.me/manga/umineko_no_...5/c025/35.html

Note that he even asked what the true nature of magic is, as well as the motive.

Then she began to answer all of Battler's questions and everything made sense and was able to accept everything. Given that Battler learned the true nature of magic, he was able to accept Beato as a witch.

Keep in mind that after Rosa collected all five master keys and called the servants furniture, Beatrice says in red: If you accept me, all of the riddles will be resolved.

As an example, saying that "I used my magic wand to turn Kanon's corpse into a demon" is not resolving the riddle of the disappearance of Kanon's corpse. Not only that, but it contradicts the very definition of magic.

Thus Battler in EP2 learned EVERYTHING and is the one most likely to become Tohya Hachijo.

Quote:
Battler is always in the same state when he stops thinking... Beatos goal was never to tell Battler about what happened in prime, he was supposed to learn it on his own.
Well the game is still between Meta-Battler and Meta-Beato. In the meta-world, we see Meta-Battler in this state, after Rosa told piece-Battler that there are more than five master keys:

http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...pisode-2/22/19

He at this point stopped thinking, gave up and lost control of his piece and everything ran its course.

Also, in Piece-Battler's case, he was technically spoon-fed the answers and didn't come to the answers on his own. Because of this, I could still say with absolute certainty that the game is between Meta-Battler and Meta-Beatrice, since obviously Meta-Battler had no way at the time could have known what Piece-Beatrice said to Piece-Battler. Why? Because as I pointed out, the connection between Piece-Battler and Meta-Battler was lost at around the time Rosa called the servants furniture and Beatrice saying in the Meta-World that there are five master keys.

Also, I might as well add that from this page:

http://mangafox.me/manga/umineko_no_...5/c025/42.html

It is said that "when the king is defeated and one player surrenders, all that is left is to reflect on the moves that were made". Obviously Meta-Battler is the player that surrendered, and he could only reflect on the moves that he made, not the moves that moved independently (Piece-Battler).

Quote:
Food for thought: if one is to claim Umineko is a succesful mystery, shouldn't the truth be the most apparent one after the key to the solutions has been given?
http://badlydrawnumineko.tumblr.com/...-theory-i-dont

Sorry can't help it. :P

Does anybody know where I can find the raws for the part when Ange read the Book of One Truth? I know it is translated but I just want to compare.

Last edited by Leslie Chow; 2015-04-14 at 17:33.
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Old 2015-04-14, 17:22   Link #35083
jjblue1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inbuiltx9 View Post
Omg, please just stop it already. You are only embarrassing yourself here. Is THIS the best you have, ignoring everything else that surrounds it and fixing on one sole argument? No its not the best I have OF COURSE, I provided thousand other clues. But I dont even care with you anymore, Im gonna be as arrogant as I want now: You dont get the story-writing of Umineko at all. You havent before, and you still dont. You read everything in a literal way and dont see the million clues there are. I bet you never were even close to solving the epitaph-riddle right? Or what happened between Battler and Sayo. Your kinda thinking makes you one of the readers Ryukishi insulted in Umineko, excuse me: it would be "Featherine" in your case - the ones who dont think further. I hope its the age discrepance between us, I know that teenagers in a certain age still arent able to think abstract. Maybe thats the reason. If its not that, I dont see the point in discussing anything with you anymore, because honestly: you just dont get it. And this is a waste of my time.
Here you really notice how Umineko is intended to be read by adults...
Honestly I think this is rather rude and that you aren't acting adult like at all.
You don't even know AuraTwilight or the theories Aura proposed over the years and yet you're labelling Aura as a child who can't understand Umineko and that had never managed to solve anything.
Instead than defending your theory you're attacking the person who criticized it and you're doing it on the assumption that person is an incomeptent teen you can dismiss according to his age.
This isn't only childish, it's mean and borders on a bullying attempt.
Please, act as an adult as you seem to claim to be one.
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Old 2015-04-14, 21:13   Link #35084
Inbuiltx9
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Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Honestly I think this is rather rude and that you aren't acting adult like at all.
You don't even know AuraTwilight or the theories Aura proposed over the years and yet you're labelling Aura as a child who can't understand Umineko and that had never managed to solve anything.
Instead than defending your theory you're attacking the person who criticized it and you're doing it on the assumption that person is an incomeptent teen you can dismiss according to his age.
This isn't only childish, it's mean and borders on a bullying attempt.
Please, act as an adult as you seem to claim to be one.
Alright, I admit that I was a bit mean there, and I went too far. I apologize.
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Old 2015-04-14, 21:15   Link #35085
Inbuiltx9
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Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
You're embarrassing yourself more than AuraTwilight with this post. You shouldn't assume someone's age or try to deem yourself superior based on silly claims like "teenagers in a certain age still aren't able to think abstract." There are actually a lot of adults who lack in the ability to think abstractly and a lot of young people who are smarter than some adults. Actually, in the case of the "fatal blow", isn't it you who is thinking literally? I think "adults" dismissing children because of their age is ultimately childish, like middle school kids trying to act older than they are. I'm also pretty sure Aura isn't a teenager (sorry if I'm calling you old, Aura!).

I did read through all of your theory, but could you perhaps provide a summary so I could more efficiently tackle some of the parts that interest me? I think you're close to what I think at moments, but miss the mark at others. The quotes have been inspirational though, not having had a proper re-read in ages. I believe most of what you said can still be explained as happening in Touya's head instead of literally on Rokkenjima Prime. I find a certain charm in translating scenes as literal events on Prime, but the explanations become needlessly convoluted sometimes because of that.

Food for thought: if one is to claim Umineko is a succesful mystery, shouldn't the truth be the most apparent one after the key to the solutions has been given? Of course, it is also implied that Prime is not exactly a mystery, so these rules do not necessarily apply to it, and what is apparent of course sometimes depends on the person.
Same with you, I admit being angy (which you must see is understandable, since he/she was quite rude) got the better of me. And for that I apologize. To you to of course too, Aura. To prove it, I will delete my post - because it really was unnecessary. (@Aura, but maybe its still better if you just skip my posts altogether, I know they can hardly be overlooked But I think our basic approaches are diametrically opposed, and it will probably lead nowhere)
But now I want to leave this whole discussion behind, because it was indeed kinda childish.

"could you perhaps provide a summary so I could more efficiently tackle some of the parts that interest me?"
Of everything that I have written? o_O I can try...maybe Ill leave all the hints and just write down my conclusions then, and for that only the main points? I will try it later on.

"I believe most of what you said can still be explained as happening in Touya's head instead of literally on Rokkenjima Prime"
You know, the fact that this Prime-story is never explicitly told to us, and just referred to in all the scenes, this alone already heavily implies that my Prime-theory is correct. Cause there is, from a normal literal POV, no need to hide something that much and let the readers search for it, if there is no point in it, cause the truth lies out in the open. Its a game, after all! You wont get the answer presented openly, you have to win.
But if you read my post that follows this one, you might understand why you are of the opinion that you can explain much with the "it happens in Touyas head"-explanation.

"Food for thought: if one is to claim Umineko is a succesful mystery, shouldn't the truth be the most apparent one after the key to the solutions has been given?"
It is! I only went through some pages of the manga right now, and it is SO appearant! Absolutely everything! falls into place. Just to give you an impression: Natsuhi runs down the staircase in ep 5, she stumbles, but then she catches herself and says "I cannot fall yet". The "fall" is referred to so often. And I just took one look into the first chapter of ep 3 and immediately wrote my Extra-part-post. Try it please. Please read the story (or only a few chapters in the manga, that doesnt take so long) with my solution. Its is so appearant I cant even describe it!


" I find a certain charm in translating scenes as literal events on Prime,"
You remember Battlers ep 5: I believe the truth can only be found with one eye believing and one denying?"
That is Ryukishis hint that tells us: Read the text- in a literal sense and in a metaphorical-both at the same time and youll find the truth

Last edited by Inbuiltx9; 2015-04-15 at 01:45.
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Old 2015-04-14, 21:57   Link #35086
Inbuiltx9
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Extra part

Ok, now that we got the pointless arguments out of the way

theres still something else I HAVE to mention because I solved my last big question -and that is the ending!

Headaches - "change the world"

http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...den-witch/9/33
http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...den-witch/9/34

Natsuhi wrinkles her forehead when she has a headache. And Battler is always grabbing his head and wrinkling his forhead when he cant think anymore- > he has the headache in those scenes.

Also: In ep 7, the game board is a mix of different timelines. Whenever someone tries to think about it, Will says theyll just get a headache. And Natsuhi in place of Battler thinks "if my head could just explode".

Then we have the whole "everything occurs simultaneously"-business in ep 6. And in ep 7 we have Yasudas "changing the world". And we have Beato saying in ep 5 that if Battler doesnt believe in the truth, it will disappear. Also the lyrics of Innana no mita yume "sentaku no hamon" - the waves of your decision... it all hints at the same thing.

First off: The decision Battler made, referred to in Innana no mita yume, was to give up on his belief for a (fake) truth.

And now I really really am unsure if there is no magic at all in Umineko....To me it sounds like he can change the world and put pieces together, and that depends on what he accepts as truth - it influences past and future (Anges future is "distorted"). They all say all the time that Battler himself decides what his world is.
So we have the red truth that Rudolf and Kyrie killed everyone, but that only happens because Battler believed so. But he should have known that it really was impossible, because it just COULDNT have happened that way.

Battler dies after all (after episode 6)

If you do want to say there is no magic, you can also say that its all in his head. But with this I mean the whole future with Touya and Ange and Ikuko wouldnt occur. Because Battler died at the beginning of ep 8:

Ep 7 scene with Kinzo: "How do you kill a puppet?" Lion: "By cutting the strings". Kinzo: "Correct, that would be death, but it would also be freedom", the "nozomareta kaihou" (longed for release) in innana no mita yumes lyrics. When Battler kills Erika in the end of ep 6, he "cuts his strings", but since he still cant get out of the locked room by himself, cause he is tied to the room there (thats at least what the chains on his feet and hands that we see quite often suggest), he pretty much starves to death. In Ep 8 "someone" comes - someone Battler thinks of as Beato, but as Beato says: "shes too late".

The ending is then either 1) Battlers last dream while he dies or 2) a change of the world, where Battler and Beato get out on the third day in 1986. But with his death, he can finally make it out of the island and is released.

Fate

And also:
http://www.mangareader.net/958-38180...chapter-1.html
http://www.mangareader.net/958-38180...chapter-1.html
http://www.mangareader.net/958-38180...chapter-1.html
http://www.mangareader.net/958-38180...chapter-1.html
http://www.mangareader.net/958-38180...chapter-1.html

Battler is the broken vase- thats how youre depicted when you fall into the sea of oblivion, as scattered into pieces. You can fix it for a while, but its fate is sealed. So in the new world/in Battlers head-however you want to see it, the same thing happens in the end again - he falls into the sea of oblivion again and becomes Touya. Ikuko is the new Beato version in this world, she has all the characteristics that Beato/Sayo had.
If you accept this "change the world" thing, then it is reality, if you dont then its Battlers final delusion. That would explain why he says that hes tired later, when hes Touya.
And that would also explain why Battler in ep 8 can say to Ange that hes already dead, even though it seems that after he said that, he was still alive. And in this new world, Touya and Ikuko write message bottles, theres a mirror in Ikukos bedroom (like there was a mirror in Erikas) and the two of them can read mystery-novels. Its like their happy ending. And this new world then influences the meta in the past, like Feahterine does, cause, again, here all time and space is connected (quote from ep 5)

Like I said: if you accept that its magic, then it is, if not, its Battlers final delusion.

Depth of oblivion=Battlers hell vs the meta=Purgatory vs. Touya/Ikuko=Battlers heaven - Oh hello there Dante

This Touya/Ikuko-world is Battlers "heaven". While the meta was his hell, a distorted version of what happens in reality (well reality isnt better), the new world is a distorted version of what happened in reality as well, but distorted in a good way. We can see that with the mirror in the bedroom, and with Ikuko having "brothers" (she wasnt allowed to be part of the family in reality), and with their mysteries that noone is allowed to read, with Battler and Beato starting from zero again (like Battler says in ep 4) and most important of all: the whole meta-story becomes only fiction of Touya and Ikuko. I guess thats why we're all always switching between the Touya/Ikuko-explanation and the Prime-explanation. Its kind of reminds one of silent hill. Also notice that the meta occurs while Battler sleeps and Battler repeatedly says he is tired, and in the ending with Ikuko, Touya also says he is tired.
Or maybe its better to say Depth of Oblivion=Hell, Meta=Purgatory and Touya/Ikuko=Heaven, and thats where Battler still is, when he is in the meta. This "fall" to heaven is of course inspired by our literature with Lucifer falling down to hell. But the meta is already a place where you can hope to escape hell, so the meta takes place sometomes im hell and sometimes in purgatory: Ep 6 Battler to Erika: "Go to hell". Then Erika told them where they were: "We are already there". Ep 8 EVA: "Ange, see you in hell. No, this is probably where we are already".
So this point I want to make absolutly clear: no matter how you slice it, the Touya/Ikuko ending is not the original world, it can never be! 1. there are too many hints that what happens in the meta has parallels in reality and 2. Ikuko cant have found Touya and the message-bottles the way its presented, this is made clear in the currents-hint. 3. Anges story CANT be true. 4. Umineko is a game (not a simple novel) where the player must reach the truth. For this, the truth must be hidden. The Touya/Ikuko-truth isnt hidden, it is not the solution.

Ha! And now I finally! understood what Vigilia meant when she said in ep 5 that Beato has to either grab him and fall to hell, or take his hand and lead him to heaven. Battler has no chance to make it out alive permanently. In reality, the only option he has is to release himself from Erika and by that to die and go to heaven. This is "taking his hand" - letting go of him by letting him die. Or he can forever stay in the room until he dies, this existence is worth than death but he would still be alive - this is "grabbing him" and falling to hell.

This is a tragedy, just like Dantes Divina Commedia. Berns red truth was right.

Last edited by Inbuiltx9; 2015-04-15 at 01:46.
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Old 2015-04-14, 23:49   Link #35087
Inbuiltx9
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Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
But Ange is not even part of the catbox and is a piece of a higher plane (Bernkastel). Plus, if Battler entered his piece in the story, then he should have stopped the murders from happening in later games. Also in EP5, Piece Battler wasn't controlled by Meta-Battler but by Bernkastel.
Oho Ange IS part of the catbox. Her future is determined depending on what is assumed to be the truth in Prime. And Battler was Bernkastels piece in the beginning too.
"Plus, if Battler entered his piece in the story, then he should have stopped the murders from happening in later games."
This is the first time I heard a good argument against my understanding Maybe I should explain it like its said in the novel itself: its not words or anything, its a direct concept that is "transmitted" into their head. They can control their pieces than as far as possible, but Battler still has an adversary - that is Beato, that controls other pieces.
And its not like Battler really knew how to stop the murders, he makes his move, Beato makes her move. When its her turn, he cant really do much. Anyways, I guess this Pieces-Player-relationship is difficult, and there are bound to be some inconsistencies. So Id rather leave it here.

Quote:
It is the same as acknowledging that the culprit was the witch. A witch because she could use magic. Magic, is a phenomenon that cannot be explained, but is possible through human tricks.

And the questions that he asked later on at 11:30 PM.

http://mangafox.me/manga/umineko_no_...5/c025/35.html

Note that he even asked what the true nature of magic is, as well as the motive.

Then she began to answer all of Battler's questions and everything made sense and was able to accept everything. Given that Battler learned the true nature of magic, he was able to accept Beato as a witch.
I get what you mean, but asking this doesnt mean Beato supplied the true answer. Im just going to explain what Beato does: by constructing the cat-box and hiding the corpses, there will never be a clear decision for who the culprit is. With that, Beato is buying time-its an argument of claims that goes back and forth, back and forth, like Ronove said in ep 3, there wont be a check-mate. Im not inventing this purpose of the cat-box, it is explicitly stated in ep 5. If she ever admits that no witch exists, the whole game self-destructs. Those are all very important questions Battler asks, no doubt about it, especially the "why did you call me here?" but Beato doesnt say the truth.

"Battler learned the true nature of magic, he was able to accept Beato as a witch."
The thing is: once Battler learns of the true nature of magic, the game ends. Thats the end-goal of the game. Battler was able to use magic long ago, but he lost this ability and fell to hell. He also wouldnt be that "numb" after hearing the truth from Beato. When Battler learns the truth in ep 5, he is able to use the golden truth and becomes the territory-lord. Completely the opposite of his slave-like-existence of his piece in ep 2. He got his bad-ending there. That is succumbing to the witch.

Quote:
Keep in mind that after Rosa collected all five master keys and called the servants furniture, Beatrice says in red: If you accept me, all of the riddles will be resolved.

As an example, saying that "I used my magic wand to turn Kanon's corpse into a demon" is not resolving the riddle of the disappearance of Kanon's corpse. Not only that, but it contradicts the very definition of magic.

Thus Battler in EP2 learned EVERYTHING and is the one most likely to become Tohya Hachijo.
Hehe, I guess this red truth is really referring to a much deeper truth: In ep 2, he succumbs to the witch, in ep 5, he accepts her in the truest sense- he knows that magic is a trick and he still doesnt give up on it - thats why he is able to use the golden truth. At this point, when he accepts Beato all the riddles are resolved, and I mean ALL the riddles, not just the ones on the game-board, but also the question what happened in reality.

Quote:
Well the game is still between Meta-Battler and Meta-Beato. In the meta-world, we see Meta-Battler in this state, after Rosa told piece-Battler that there are more than five master keys:

http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...pisode-2/22/19

He at this point stopped thinking, gave up and lost control of his piece and everything ran its course.

Also, in Piece-Battler's case, he was technically spoon-fed the answers and didn't come to the answers on his own. Because of this, I could still say with absolute certainty that the game is between Meta-Battler and Meta-Beatrice, since obviously Meta-Battler had no way at the time could have known what Piece-Beatrice said to Piece-Battler. Why? Because as I pointed out, the connection between Piece-Battler and Meta-Battler was lost at around the time Rosa called the servants furniture and Beatrice saying in the Meta-World that there are five master keys.
"Because as I pointed out, the connection between Piece-Battler and Meta-Battler was lost at around the time Rosa called the servants furniture and Beatrice saying in the Meta-World that there are five master keys." How do you come to this conclusion?

Quote:
Also, I might as well add that from this page:

http://mangafox.me/manga/umineko_no_...5/c025/42.html

It is said that "when the king is defeated and one player surrenders, all that is left is to reflect on the moves that were made". Obviously Meta-Battler is the player that surrendered, and he could only reflect on the moves that he made, not the moves that moved independently (Piece-Battler).
He can also reflect on the moves Beato made, cant he? He does so in ep 5 after all.

No no, I always like reading theories. But right now my internet is bad again, it doesnt load So Ill answer to that later.
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Old 2015-04-15, 00:37   Link #35088
AuraTwilight
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You know, Inbuilt, I wasn't trying to pick a fight or anything like that? I've always played devil's advocate and hard-ass to help people refine their ideas and arguments into their best possible form, Beatrice-style. I keep harping on this point because your posts get REAAALLY TL;DR, especially to non-english speakers like me, who have a hard time understanding some of your sentences or mentally correcting your grammar and punctuation mistakes. This is why I mentioned spoiler-tagging your posts into sections, by the way, because it makes it easier to break up and digest your information.

You, of course, responded by misgendering me, speaking to me patronizing me, and writing me off as not being your intended audience. I didn't mention anything of it at the time but apparently you'll make a habit of this so that was revoked.

I keep harping on this point of you not supporting your arguments properly because you zone in on really specific wording and turns of phrases that are symbolic or thematic at best, and trying to interpret them literally when there's a huge language barrier that will distort all of this.

I keep harping on this point because the reasonings you use are very similar in methodology to a famous Umineko theorist who's so deadset on Rosatrice he thinks Ryukishi is lying to the audience when he directly says otherwise.

I keep harping on these things because you 'establish' these points and then use them as evidence or scaffolds for other points, because if THIS is true then THAT is true and THIS can't be NOT true. You write these huge essay posts but then I ask how you've proven your earliest points because the reasoning isn't convincing or well explained, and well.

We all saw what I got.

By the way, that made me LOL. You know why? Because I'm actually acquainted with Ryukishi enough to have had conversations with him. I don't lord it though and I have no special insight, but the idea that I lag behind anyone on this forum is laughable.
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Old 2015-04-15, 04:45   Link #35089
Leslie Chow
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Quote:
but Beato doesnt say the truth.
The narration said she CLEARLY did. While she might only tell everything what happened in game 2 timeline, taking into consideration the releases of forgeries, CotGW and Tohya's memories, it wouldn't be too hard for him and Ikuko to go through each game and deduce how they were done. After all, Ikuko did say that Tohya gives the ideas then she writes everything with her writing skills. Also, by explaining the motive, it is most likely that message bottles are mentioned as well.

Quote:
When Battler learns the truth in ep 5, he is able to use the golden truth and becomes the territory-lord. Completely the opposite of his slave-like-existence of his piece in ep 2. He got his bad-ending there. That is succumbing to the witch.
Meta-Battler did by looking back on past moves and using Knox's Decalogue. His Piece, which was already out of his control and the game at that point ending and left to run its course with the Meta-characters and obviously the viewers watching, are not their moves. So even though Piece-Battler knew everything, Meta-Battler didn't. Also, by that point in the game (Rosa calling furnitures), the game ended, Meta-Beatrice won, and moves after this (or events following the Rosa scene) are NOT the moves of their Meta counterparts. It just seems the game ended at 12:00 AM but in EP2, I don't think that is the case at all, since earlier on Battler gave up. It is almost like playing a game with a timer, one player surrenders, and by default the other wins. However, since there is a timer technically the game isn't over yet, although the players at that point stopped playing. Therefore the game ran its course.

Quote:
"Because as I pointed out, the connection between Piece-Battler and Meta-Battler was lost at around the time Rosa called the servants furniture and Beatrice saying in the Meta-World that there are five master keys." How do you come to this conclusion?
Because it seems to me like in the meta-sense, the game has ended. Like earlier, we see Meta-Battler so bent on denying Beato that even as early as when the group arrived in Jessica's room, Piece-Battler, gave up already, which is also a reflection on Meta-Battler's moves. Not only that, but after that, Battler didn't even continue rejecting Beato, he was more emotional and pretty much on the verge on surrendering, and after the scene with Rosa calling servants furniture, he pretty much gave up and that was the last meta-scene in the game prior to midnight. I could also say that Meta-Beatrice lost control of her piece and the game continued, without the influence of meta-characters, since for them at least, the chess game is over. All that happens afterwards are pieces moving on their own, not their moves.

Quote:
You remember Battlers ep 5: I believe the truth can only be found with one eye believing and one denying?"
That is Ryukishis hint that tells us: Read the text- in a literal sense and in a metaphorical-both at the same time and youll find the truth
I recently borrowed the last volume of EP4 from a library in my area and you are right about this. Ryukishi himself flat out admits in the afterword of EP4 manga Yen Press release that in order to find the truth you need an eye without love and an eye with love. So yeah what Willard said about the four games being solvable on its own is true.


Quote:
I keep harping on this point because the reasonings you use are very similar in methodology to a famous Umineko theorist who's so deadset on Rosatrice he thinks Ryukishi is lying to the audience when he directly says otherwise.
Are you referring to KNM? Not that I am defending him or anything, but he did claim that he had holes in his theory and even if he is wrong, he would admit it as long as there is proof of it within the story. It is not like he is attacking anyone. So I don't think he is so deadset on Rosatrice. If anything, it is the fanboys themselves who are deadset on Rosatrice, not him. To a certain extent I could also say that some Sayotrice fanboys also add fuel to the fire by using the author's authority so much. Last time I remember there are still loopholes in the story that would allow Rosatrice, making it a valid alternative solution, manga version included. Also, unlike with the official explanation, it doesn't involve twisting the red truth (e.g. number of people = number of names). All in all, I think it is close-mindedness on both sides that the Umineko fandom is divided in the first place when in fact it shouldn't be. Plus I think Ryukishi would love to hear the Rosatrice theory, even if it is not his intended solution. Rosatrice in a nutshell: the game of cheese in EP6. As for his methodology, he isn't even close to Inbuilt's analyses.

Last edited by Leslie Chow; 2015-04-15 at 05:00.
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Old 2015-04-15, 05:30   Link #35090
Inbuiltx9
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
You know, Inbuilt, I wasn't trying to pick a fight or anything like that? I've always played devil's advocate and hard-ass to help people refine their ideas and arguments into their best possible form, Beatrice-style. I keep harping on this point because your posts get REAAALLY TL;DR, especially to non-english speakers like me, who have a hard time understanding some of your sentences or mentally correcting your grammar and punctuation mistakes. This is why I mentioned spoiler-tagging your posts into sections, by the way, because it makes it easier to break up and digest your information.

You, of course, responded by misgendering me, speaking to me patronizing me, and writing me off as not being your intended audience. I didn't mention anything of it at the time but apparently you'll make a habit of this so that was revoked.

I keep harping on this point of you not supporting your arguments properly because you zone in on really specific wording and turns of phrases that are symbolic or thematic at best, and trying to interpret them literally when there's a huge language barrier that will distort all of this.

I keep harping on this point because the reasonings you use are very similar in methodology to a famous Umineko theorist who's so deadset on Rosatrice he thinks Ryukishi is lying to the audience when he directly says otherwise.

I keep harping on these things because you 'establish' these points and then use them as evidence or scaffolds for other points, because if THIS is true then THAT is true and THIS can't be NOT true. You write these huge essay posts but then I ask how you've proven your earliest points because the reasoning isn't convincing or well explained, and well.

We all saw what I got.

By the way, that made me LOL. You know why? Because I'm actually acquainted with Ryukishi enough to have had conversations with him. I don't lord it though and I have no special insight, but the idea that I lag behind anyone on this forum is laughable.
So once again: even I have to LOL at this post right now. Yesterday, I was blowing a fuse, and I certainly should have tried to calm down before actually posting it. Im the coleric type. Nowadays, I rarely get angry at all, but if I get angry it gets really really bad and the result was the post from yesterday, which was more insulting and more blowing of steam than any form of argumentation. I regret posting it and I apologize.

But with all that said. You say you're playing devils advocate and I actually dont mind that you try correcting mistakes. I WANT to be corrected if Im wrong somewhere. But theres a big difference in saying: "Could you work on your punctuation and stuff "and saying "this is all a spastic mess."My mother tongue isnt English either, so I still lack the feeling for the language, cause I only use the English I learnt at school a long time ago. What I indeed do mind is the tone in your posts. And I dont think I will ever get used to that, sorry. I dont even want to have to deal with this. I want to post in a forum to have fun, I dont want this to become a serious issue, cause its a hobby. I tried to overlook it quite a few times, but your answers are stressful to me - its not fun. Thats why I suggested that you just overlook my posts.

Apart from that - I dont agree with any of your points, since I thoroughly provided the arguments and clues. There is rarely any scene which I interpret literally. There was this one word in my post: "fatal", that I used to further! strengthen my claim, but this was the weakest in a string of arguments. I guess you didnt open the spoiler, because in there, there were all the other stronger arguments. I would never use a single word to base a whole interpretation on it. Im always taking clues from various scenes at the same time, and see if they fit or not. And whatever you might say - I dont contradict Ryukishi and keep forcing my interpretation, it falls into place all on its own. And I dont really doubt my theory anymore. Apart from that though, I do understand Japanese, the barrier isnt there whenever I hear the voices, so I can sometimes even rely on words a bit.

Let me summarize please. I once again apologize for the stupid and childish post. And I still think you're taking a discussion far too seriously, and its not fun for me to write with you. And I dont consider any of your points to be valid in your counterarguments. Since with the last posts, that were really long, Ive written almost everything down that I wanted to write down, the next ones will be far shorter and easier for you to overlook I hope. So if its fine with you, Id really like to get over this stupid quarrel and just end it with this post, ok?

Last edited by Inbuiltx9; 2015-04-15 at 06:30.
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Old 2015-04-15, 05:30   Link #35091
Apaula
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Every time I read a reply from Inbuilt I kind of laugh and just stopped reading his theories because they're kind of hilarious.
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Old 2015-04-15, 06:20   Link #35092
Inbuiltx9
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Originally Posted by Leslie Chow View Post
The narration said she CLEARLY did. While she might only tell everything what happened in game 2 timeline, taking into consideration the releases of forgeries, CotGW and Tohya's memories, it wouldn't be too hard for him and Ikuko to go through each game and deduce how they were done. After all, Ikuko did say that Tohya gives the ideas then she writes everything with her writing skills. Also, by explaining the motive, it is most likely that message bottles are mentioned as well.
Could you mention this scene where it says Beato tells the truth? I cant say anything write now because I dont remember this scene very clearly.

Quote:
Meta-Battler did by looking back on past moves and using Knox's Decalogue. His Piece, which was already out of his control and the game at that point ending and left to run its course with the Meta-characters and obviously the viewers watching, are not their moves. So even though Piece-Battler knew everything, Meta-Battler didn't. Also, by that point in the game (Rosa calling furnitures), the game ended, Meta-Beatrice won, and moves after this (or events following the Rosa scene) are NOT the moves of their Meta counterparts. It just seems the game ended at 12:00 AM but in EP2, I don't think that is the case at all, since earlier on Battler gave up. It is almost like playing a game with a timer, one player surrenders, and by default the other wins. However, since there is a timer technically the game isn't over yet, although the players at that point stopped playing. Therefore the game ran its course.
But I dont get where you find the clues in the text to support your claim?
This for example

"Also, by that point in the game (Rosa calling furnitures), the game ended, Meta-Beatrice won, and moves after this (or events following the Rosa scene) are NOT the moves of their Meta counterparts."

Beatrice appeared in ep 4 before Battler too. I dont know where you base this on? And I also think the last straw was Rosa saying that he probably isnt Ushiromiya Battler. Ill have to take a look at the scene again, but I dont think there is anything supporting that their connection was lost. In fact, in ep 5 Bern says Beato would have already shown what happens to losers in her games, they are ripped apart by goats. The loser is not Piece-Battler but Meta-Battler, because the piece is only, well, his piece...

Quote:
Because it seems to me like in the meta-sense, the game has ended. Like earlier, we see Meta-Battler so bent on denying Beato that even as early as when the group arrived in Jessica's room, Piece-Battler, gave up already, which is also a reflection on Meta-Battler's moves. Not only that, but after that, Battler didn't even continue rejecting Beato, he was more emotional and pretty much on the verge on surrendering, and after the scene with Rosa calling servants furniture, he pretty much gave up and that was the last meta-scene in the game prior to midnight. I could also say that Meta-Beatrice lost control of her piece and the game continued, without the influence of meta-characters, since for them at least, the chess game is over. All that happens afterwards are pieces moving on their own, not their moves.
Whenever the game ends before 24h, its said to have been abandoned. This happens in ep 5 and in ep 6. In ep 4, Beato says that she wants to leave the game, and everything would just pause. The pieces would remain where they are, for all eternity, on the chess-board. The game doesnt really move on. Or Battler could just happily play with himself, figuring out what the truth is

Quote:
I recently borrowed the last volume of EP4 from a library in my area and you are right about this. Ryukishi himself flat out admits in the afterword of EP4 manga Yen Press release that in order to find the truth you need an eye without love and an eye with love. So yeah what Willard said about the four games being solvable on its own is true.
Hehe, yes, there are so many informations you get if you read think about the games being a huge love letter to Battler, for example Georges: "Even now, I only exist for your sake" in ep 3. Or Mammons "Come on! Kill me, deny me, your first and last friend"while crying. Its been like that from the start. If you read it as a love letter, it all falls into place.

Quote:
Are you referring to KNM? Not that I am defending him or anything, but he did claim that he had holes in his theory and even if he is wrong, he would admit it as long as there is proof of it within the story. It is not like he is attacking anyone. So I don't think he is so deadset on Rosatrice. If anything, it is the fanboys themselves who are deadset on Rosatrice, not him. To a certain extent I could also say that some Sayotrice fanboys also add fuel to the fire by using the author's authority so much. Last time I remember there are still loopholes in the story that would allow Rosatrice, making it a valid alternative solution, manga version included. Also, unlike with the official explanation, it doesn't involve twisting the red truth (e.g. number of people = number of names). All in all, I think it is close-mindedness on both sides that the Umineko fandom is divided in the first place when in fact it shouldn't be. Plus I think Ryukishi would love to hear the Rosatrice theory, even if it is not his intended solution. Rosatrice in a nutshell: the game of cheese in EP6. As for his methodology, he isn't even close to Inbuilt's analyses.
Hehe, actually his videos arent that bad to listen to Of course, my method is pretty much the opposite of his - he focuses on the red truth and on single words, for example the word "family" in the video you recently linked. Earlier its the same with "body" "person" etc. What I do is - I read the black text. And if an intepretation of the scene is supported by many other clues and fits with the context and the red truth, I take this as my hypothesis and look if there is anything falsifying or veryfying it. This I do with all the scenes, try to see if they match and if they are pit into the puzzle.
So yeah, while KNM focuses on red truth and on single words, and is interpreting it literally, I focus on black text, take a look at the whole picture, and interpret everything with a double meaning. Concrete words, I use only to further strengthen a conclusion I reached beforehand. So yeah, concerning methology, we are represent the complete opposite.
I personally like to listen to him, even though I dont agree at all. What I have a problem with with the "Rosatrice-fans" is that they often assume things without providing clues that would lead to to this conclusion. But "Sayotrice-fans" (I count myself to them) sometimes are the same, saying: its just true. period. I firmly believe that there is A truth, but Ryukishi certainly intended for various theories to coexist. So some fans completely missed that point.
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Old 2015-04-15, 11:15   Link #35093
Mali
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I don't like to say it but sometime I did a post about - it's an example - Rosa could be alive at a moment I get the feel I am branded as a Rosatrice supporter because 'the manga told the truth'. But I'm not feeling visiting sites with translated media because I'm not gonna import a manga with abysmal chances getting official released in Europe and and I had a bad experience with one visit after some - after that I changed my mind. I'm happy to have bought the VN, applied with a well made translation.
IT'S hard to discuss any further with people with knowledge of the manga. This makes me very sad

Spoiler for No NOT THIS:
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Old 2015-04-15, 13:19   Link #35094
Bluemail
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Originally Posted by Mali View Post
I don't like to say it but sometime I did a post about - it's an example - Rosa could be alive at a moment I get the feel I am branded as a Rosatrice supporter because 'the manga told the truth'. But I'm not feeling visiting sites with translated media because I'm not gonna import a manga with abysmal chances getting official released in Europe and and I had a bad experience with one visit after some - after that I changed my mind. I'm happy to have bought the VN, applied with a well made translation.
IT'S hard to discuss any further with people with knowledge of the manga. This makes me very sad
But the Umineko manga is being officially released in English and getting it in European countries isn't hard? It's still got a long way to go before getting to EP8 though.

Rosatrice has honestly been a pain and people might still take a strong defensive stance against anything that goes against the official solution. I welcome interesting alternative theories as long as they are not trying too hard to become the actual solution. But people, me included, are naturally more interested in the real solution than alternatives.

Are you perhaps saying that it's hard to theorise when people bring up facts you aren't aware of yet, for not reading the manga? Sadly nothing can be done about that, but at least they should try to look at your theory from the perspective of someone who doesn't have all the knowledge and give the effort proper respect.

I have to bring up a thing about KNM's Rosatrice that I can't get my head around. Why would someone think the constant use of so-called "fake death drugs" was ever a good solution? Isn't that more or less a purupurupikopyo-level solution?
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Old 2015-04-15, 13:29   Link #35095
Leslie Chow
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Quote:
I have to bring up a thing about KNM's Rosatrice that I can't get my head around. Why would someone think the constant use of so-called "fake death drugs" was ever a good solution? Isn't that more or less a purupurupikopyo-level solution?
To be perfectly honest, even I couldn't get my head around it either. However, there are at least drugs that could have been used like anaesthesia or sleeping pills (which I strongly believe to have been used to kill Maria in EP4 with overdose, since the foaming in her mouth is a symptom of overdose of sleeping pills). But yeah, even though KNM technically solved most of, if not provided the backbone for Rosatrice, it doesn't mean that everything he says is a 100% accurate.
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Old 2015-04-15, 15:27   Link #35096
Mali
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluemail
But the Umineko manga is being officially released in English and getting it in European countries isn't hard? It's still got a long way to go before getting to EP8 though.
Haha I admit I didn't follow manga news often and overlook that some vol. were localized and released. I think I won't buy them (yet). My interests will probably change in few years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluemail
Rosatrice has honestly been a pain and people might still take a strong defensive stance against anything that goes against the official solution. I welcome interesting alternative theories as long as they are not trying too hard to become the actual solution. But people, me included, are naturally more interested in the real solution than alternatives.
It's not wrong that Sayo is supported by argumentum ad populum...
As long as Lambda do not aknowledge a truth the catbox remains, I guess.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluemail
Are you perhaps saying that it's hard to theorise when people bring up facts you aren't aware of yet, for not reading the manga? Sadly nothing can be done about that, but at least they should try to look at your theory from the perspective of someone who doesn't have all the knowledge and give the effort proper respect.
I wrote some of these and started a misunderdstanding between them. Not long ago I argued with JJ. Afterwards I didn't want to to argue because it's always about who's the winner. A hard place for respect and tolerance. Well we are humans.
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Old 2015-04-15, 16:14   Link #35097
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by Bluemail View Post
But the Umineko manga is being officially released in English and getting it in European countries isn't hard? It's still got a long way to go before getting to EP8 though.
Honestly for me it'll be easier to get the Japanese version than the American one. That's why I don't share the enthusiasm for the English releases.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mali View Post
I wrote some of these and started a misunderdstanding between them. Not long ago I argued with JJ. Afterwards I didn't want to to argue because it's always about who's the winner. A hard place for respect and tolerance. Well we are humans.
If it looked like with my reply to you I showed a lack of respect and tolerance I apologize. It wasn't my intention.
However for me it's not so much as a matter of who's the winner as the race has ended long ago.
We were told the solution and Ryukishi confirmed that the manga is the official solution more than once.
I understand people might not like it and that's far from perfect but Ryukishi is only human. Honestly I don't really know what else he could do to prove the solution he had given in the manga is the official one.
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Old 2015-04-15, 17:23   Link #35098
haguruma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mali View Post
IT'S hard to discuss any further with people with knowledge of the manga. This makes me very sad
I'm very sorry if the atmosphere makes you feel like you can't contribute, but the problem exists on both sides, doesn't it? Yes, it is too bad that many fans in the West don't have an easy access to the manga, but, as regretable as it is, it can't be helped.
It's basically like complaining that you can't properly discuss a book with somebody, when you haven't read the last 20 pages and they have. You can make educated guesses, theories, give ideas, but in the end that other person can always trump you over by saying, "No, this is not how it ends".

Especially now that Ryukishi has confirmed that the manga is giving us everything we are supposed to know, it's a little grating that people keep insisting on there being equally valid alternative solutions. It makes it equally hard to actually discuss what is going on in the series currently (which is the manga).

Just saying.
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Old 2015-04-16, 11:28   Link #35099
Mali
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I felt saying this before going in disagreements one more time

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1
Honestly for me it'll be easier to get the Japanese version than the American one. That's why I don't share the enthusiasm for the English releases.
I prefer localized (written) medias, especially books. I don't get the "feeling" of some scenarios. Maybe it's because English isn't my mother tongue . It's often a barrier. Movies, games and comics are different as long I understand the context along the act of someone/thing. If Umineko were a English novel (not VN) I fear I can't crasp the true story
Now for your post: I see you are an adept in Japanese. I may not be able to learn master this language. You can call yourself lucky to buy it in it's original beauty.
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Old 2015-04-16, 13:23   Link #35100
jjblue1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mali View Post
I felt saying this before going in disagreements one more time

I prefer localized (written) medias, especially books. I don't get the "feeling" of some scenarios. Maybe it's because English isn't my mother tongue . It's often a barrier. Movies, games and comics are different as long I understand the context along the act of someone/thing. If Umineko were a English novel (not VN) I fear I can't crasp the true story
Now for your post: I see you are an adept in Japanese. I may not be able to learn master this language. You can call yourself lucky to buy it in it's original beauty.
Nope, I can barely understand few Japanese words. It's just that Japanese original mangas get imported, Japanese manga translated in English don't, therefore it would be easier for me to obtain the Japanese version than the English one.
People prefers to wait for them to be translated here so there's not request ence nobody worries about importing them.
I too would prefer to read umineko in my mother tongue as I definitely understand things better in it but I somehow doubt it will get printed here.
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