AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Retired M-Z > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2015-05-22, 15:04   Link #35181
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Levani View Post
Not wanna be an ass here but couldn't that also be interpreted as a girl who has a damaged body and doesn't get periods? It's heavily implied, yeah, but I don't think there's a direct confirmation that she was born a boy.
There's no direct confirmation, yes. It just seems the most likely option because each additional info pointed that way yet Ryukishi is refusing to directly confirm this one so I guess everyone is free to place his bets on the cat he prefers, the dead one or the living one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
I assumed that line was a "then he went on with telling me what happened" and Ange just "summarizing" it, which I see often being used in stories, when the author wants to avoid doing a flashback or a lenghty explanation by a character...

You know, like that line where some group asks someone what they know about an event, the person starts speaking, then a short timeskip and the whole group saying "so that's what happened..." I also saw this device being used in some RPGs as well. I guess we have to wait for the manga to show it in a little bit more concrete way.
I think the idea was that Ryukishi wanted to see if he could again trick us with subjective narrative. We get Ange's point of view. Is it reliable (as in she's just summarizing what Tohya is saying) or she's adding her own interpretation?

From the last chapter of the manga I'll say it's safe to assume Ange merely gave her own interpretation of things.
It'll be pretty natural for Tohya not to want to talk about the incident. He doesn't know if Ange read the diary and if she believed at what was written into it.

If he claims he doesn't remember he won't have to explain things.

And interesting enough Ikuko claimed that:
Quote:
His memory from around the time he was drowning in the ocean is hazy.
... meaning it can be he remembers stuffs prior to it (he escaped on the 6th so he should remember at least what happened of the 5th) even if it again lulls us into the belief he actually don't remember anything of what happened on Rokkenjima.

Okay, so it's my speculation and I'm curious to see if the manga will confirm it but still it's interesting.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-05-22, 17:21   Link #35182
haguruma
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 34
Send a message via ICQ to haguruma Send a message via MSN to haguruma
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
Dear God, Kyrie and Rudolf are fast killers.
I'm a bit confuse on what exactly happened.

Hum... Beato woke up and heard Kyrie and Rudolf talking... I'll take as they left she left as well searching for Battler.
They actually don't have to be that fast.
The manga gives the time as 1:05am. If we think back to EP7's Tea Party, it said that the adults witnessed the clock turning to midnight, and that was already when things where going downhill. So it could very well be that they had an hour on Sayo before she woke up.

The way the manga depicts it, she heard them talk as she drifted off and then woke up shortly after (likely due to the pain of her broken collarbone...ouch).

Quote:
Somehow Battler decided to go to the chapel... but evidently Kyrie wasn't the one who called him there as apparently she was already dead? And of course so Rudolf? So he reaches the chapel and Sayo finds him there and Eva is following them?
And somehow they manage to escape her?
Is that it?
It's actually the EP4 problem that many of us kinda assumed. While they are all circling the island there is also killing going on.

Sayo went out when Eva was still lying there. She immediately searched the sorroundings of the chapel and found George, then she went over to the mansion and found Jessica, and then to the cousins room and found Maria as well as Kumasawa.

Battler's sentence of "wanting to ask where the chapel is" implies the events of the EP7 Tea Party as well. Later in the tunnels he also asks if it truly was Kinzo's doing, implying that he was told the "test story".
He was asked to come to the chapel, but not knowing where it was he went to ask Gohda. He finds Gohda dead and runs to the dining hall, where he finds Jessica dead, from there he runs outside and finds Kyrie, leading him to believe that Maria (who left with him) is in danger but finds her dead, then he finally makes his way to the chapel and finds George and Rudolph, leading him to the Gold Room by accident.

EP7 already implied that Eva found Rudolph before Battler could get there and then headed immediately to kill Kyrie, which was close to the guesthouse. It seems like it was really a matter of minutes.

Quote:
I still think the ingot is a plot device as it was plainly stupid to hide one instead than a credit card (how do you convert it?) although it's hard to drown yourself while holding a credit card so an ingot was needed.
The fact that the rope was already tied to the ingot, which was placed in a boat no less, kind of implied to me that she was planning to commit suicide that way a lot longer and that it wasn't a spontaneous idea at all.

Quote:
The meta part is... interesting, I'll say.
Very meta.
Yeah, it's kind of awesome to have this connection of reality and fantasy now, where Beato from beyond the grave is trying to help Battler remember who they were. It's nice that even with all the deconstruction of the fantasy going on in the manga, it also adds little tidbits that still give us the oportunity to believe in whatever side we want to.

Quote:
Tohya never said he was split from Eva. He never mentioned escaping with her. It was Ange who assumed he was escaping with Eva as she had no idea he could have been escaping with Sayo.
Actually the new manga chapter makes and interesting little addition regarding the involvement of Eva in the same way as this misunderstanding goes.
When Battler starts thinking about who could be the murderer he goes by living people. When Sayo was circling the island she didn't stumble over Kyrie's corpse (likely missing the event by a few minutes). Then Battler says that, 'It couldn't have been that person, because she wouldn't do such a thing,' while thinking of Eva, yet Sayo keeps talking about the people she witnessed killing (Rudolph and Kyrie) who she believes to be still alive.

Since they apparently never got to clear that misunderstanding up (not being aware that it was one in the first place), this also explains the existence of EP3 now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblue1 View Post
I think the idea was that Ryukishi wanted to see if he could again trick us with subjective narrative. We get Ange's point of view. Is it reliable (as in she's just summarizing what Tohya is saying) or she's adding her own interpretation?
I think so too.
And I think the narrative has made clear by now that, unless you see something with your very own eyes, you should always take it with a grain of salt.

And a few other things:

I liked how we have confirmation that there was a gun loaded with blanks mixed into the set. EP1 and 3 already implied as much, especially with how Eva managed to shoot Jessica in the face yet not injure her beyond burning her face and blinding her.
This also implies that Kyrie was fully aware of not being able to win against Eva in that duel and that she really did say all those horrible things to sway Eva towards keeping silent and protecting Ange.

Also, I love how we are still slightly kept in the dark about the actual events of most of the murders. We are shown the result in this chapter (which also shows that Genji was shot in the head and Kinzo is still in his freezer apparently) before the island explodes. If Kyrie really was such an isane murderer who enjoys carnage, why did she go for such a quick and (comparatively) low-key method like slitting people's (Nanjo, Kumasawa, Maria) throats?
Yes, Rudolph and Kyrie messed up big time, but they might also not be the monsters from Eva's imagination.
haguruma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-05-22, 18:42   Link #35183
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
They actually don't have to be that fast.
The manga gives the time as 1:05am. If we think back to EP7's Tea Party, it said that the adults witnessed the clock turning to midnight, and that was already when things where going downhill. So it could very well be that they had an hour on Sayo before she woke up.
Hum... I'll re-read the Teaparty to see if I can make the bits fits. Though I guess I'll have to wait to see this chapter before working things out fully.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
The way the manga depicts it, she heard them talk as she drifted off and then woke up shortly after (likely due to the pain of her broken collarbone...ouch).
Hum... by the way... I didn't quite get how the guns worked. Sayo said there was a gun with the bullets removed but if she got a broken collarbone the bullets should have been in...
Besides since Rosa and Hideyoshi ended up getting killed either it was Kyrie and RUDOLF shooting at them or Kyrie definitely had a charged gun...

Hum... my lack of knowledge in how guns work is showing I fear...

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
It's actually the EP4 problem that many of us kinda assumed. While they are all circling the island there is also killing going on.

Sayo went out when Eva was still lying there. She immediately searched the sorroundings of the chapel and found George, then she went over to the mansion and found Jessica, and then to the cousins room and found Maria as well as Kumasawa.

Battler's sentence of "wanting to ask where the chapel is" implies the events of the EP7 Tea Party as well. Later in the tunnels he also asks if it truly was Kinzo's doing, implying that he was told the "test story".
He was asked to come to the chapel, but not knowing where it was he went to ask Gohda. He finds Gohda dead and runs to the dining hall, where he finds Jessica dead, from there he runs outside and finds Kyrie, leading him to believe that Maria (who left with him) is in danger but finds her dead, then he finally makes his way to the chapel and finds George and Rudolph, leading him to the Gold Room by accident.

EP7 already implied that Eva found Rudolph before Battler could get there and then headed immediately to kill Kyrie, which was close to the guesthouse. It seems like it was really a matter of minutes.
Well all this makes interesting how Tohya wrote his tales.
In Ep 3 he likely was sure it was Eva who hijacked the game.
In Ep 4 he wrote the plot using what he remembered happened that day (the test, him seeing the corpses, meeting with Beatrice, him being the last survivor) but interesting enough he doesn't place the blame on Eva anymore.
In Ep 5 the dark side of the adults is showing, as well as the fact he feels responsible and, at the same time, unable to stop the tragedy and we even have the adults arguing in the room of the gold.
In Ep 6 he remembers Sayo saved him and there was a cold blooded killer going around. In Ep 3 we had a hint Kyrie wasn't exactly a nice person but in Ep 6 she's a lot more explicit about it, deliberately claiming she wouldn't have hesitated to commit murder hadn't Asumu died first. There's also a hint she might have damaged Jessica's head.

In a way the games show us how he progressed in recovering his memory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
The fact that the rope was already tied to the ingot, which was placed in a boat no less, kind of implied to me that she was planning to commit suicide that way a lot longer and that it wasn't a spontaneous idea at all.
Well, that's the best explanation because otherwise escaping with a ingot is as useful as escaping with a rock. It would be too much trouble to convert it in cash and it's not exactly confortable to drag along...


Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Yeah, it's kind of awesome to have this connection of reality and fantasy now, where Beato from beyond the grave is trying to help Battler remember who they were. It's nice that even with all the deconstruction of the fantasy going on in the manga, it also adds little tidbits that still give us the oportunity to believe in whatever side we want to.
Well, psychologically speaking we can see Beatrice as the side of Tohya who still remembered things... his subconscious in a way... but I prefer the idea that Beatrice is trying to help him from her grave. Call me a hopeless romantic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Actually the new manga chapter makes and interesting little addition regarding the involvement of Eva in the same way as this misunderstanding goes.
When Battler starts thinking about who could be the murderer he goes by living people. When Sayo was circling the island she didn't stumble over Kyrie's corpse (likely missing the event by a few minutes). Then Battler says that, 'It couldn't have been that person, because she wouldn't do such a thing,' while thinking of Eva, yet Sayo keeps talking about the people she witnessed killing (Rudolph and Kyrie) who she believes to be still alive.

Since they apparently never got to clear that misunderstanding up (not being aware that it was one in the first place), this also explains the existence of EP3 now.
I had this suspicion a misunderstanding was going around but I thought in the end Battler had figured things out... but maybe he didn't? Well, I don't blame him if he didn't...



Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
I think so too.
And I think the narrative has made clear by now that, unless you see something with your very own eyes, you should always take it with a grain of salt.
True. But this also tempt me all the more to wish to see the manga with my own eyes! ^_-



Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
And a few other things:

I liked how we have confirmation that there was a gun loaded with blanks mixed into the set. EP1 and 3 already implied as much, especially with how Eva managed to shoot Jessica in the face yet not injure her beyond burning her face and blinding her.
This also implies that Kyrie was fully aware of not being able to win against Eva in that duel and that she really did say all those horrible things to sway Eva towards keeping silent and protecting Ange.
It was said in the teaparty though that the gun should have only 5 bullets. As Kyrie surely shot 4 in the room of gold likely she recharged the gun. She and Rudolf are supposed to be expert. Didn't she realize they were blanks?

Though yes, it would also explain why she didn't shot to Jessica but had to kill her with her bare hands.


Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
Also, I love how we are still slightly kept in the dark about the actual events of most of the murders. We are shown the result in this chapter (which also shows that Genji was shot in the head and Kinzo is still in his freezer apparently) before the island explodes. If Kyrie really was such an isane murderer who enjoys carnage, why did she go for such a quick and (comparatively) low-key method like slitting people's (Nanjo, Kumasawa, Maria) throats?
Yes, Rudolph and Kyrie messed up big time, but they might also not be the monsters from Eva's imagination.
Kinzo in the fridge is... I'll better not think at it.

Honestly I've always though they weren't bloodthirsty, just with their backs against the wall and ready to do everything.
Rudolf is in serious economical troubles with people who might want to kill him. They need that money and they've such a warm family and they can legittimately doubt that Eva, who always hated Natsuhi and Krauss, shot them by mistake so they had to go.
Rosa looked like the type who could have blackmailed someone for the rest of their life so she had to go as well.
Getting rid of the others in such situation for them might have looked like an act of self preservation.

I still think it's not a smart plan but it could have been more a spur of the moment plan due to the circumstances they were in.

Probably to Eva, who denies she would have been able to do the same (even if after Rosa's death she wasn't really mourning her... but well, it can be she wouldn't have been able to get that far), it was impossible to accept they were just cornered. It would force her to consider the possibility in their shoes she could have done the same.

And LOL, I'm still happy we got to see how Battler really was.

So far the Battler we saw was a construct of Sayo and Tohya so it could be he wasn't perfectly like himself but the one in this bit is likely the real Battler. It was nice to get to know him after so long.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-05-23, 03:54   Link #35184
Mali
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Too bad there are enough spoilers this time. oh I scan and go with them.
And Tohya also wrote Ep3 and 4?
This leaves me to the questions:
Was Ep7 (I mean the VN version) now written by Tohya from his memory or by Ikuko? I didn't like the idea that Sayo throw her confession with the other bottles in the ocean. Wiki says she found it by roadside.
What if ... Tohya is the personification of the bottle mail?

Why did Tohya try to make Sayo being the culprits in most in his stories? Dedicate them to Sayo? Were we supposed to solve them with Kyrie as the murderer?

Did Ikuko influenced Ep3 and 4?

Why introducing an another pattern in Ep5 + 6? Playing prank, Erika, knowing how to solve the epitaph...
Mali is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-05-23, 08:32   Link #35185
Ayu-ayu
a.k.a. Akari_House
 
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere near Seattle
Age: 48
That was amazing. I'm going to have to digest this one for a while. Thanks as always, Haguruma...this has been quite the journey!

I'm still not fully convinced just yet that Ikuko isn't Sayo. When Battler tried to save her from drowning and started to drown himself, she could have seen this and broken free of the gold and helped him back to the surface, only for him to have lost his memory. So she could have become Ikuko with the purpose of reviving/saving Battler. This makes for some fairly interesting parallels as another angle for the meta, too.

Well, I'll stick by that until the next chapter likely shoots it down...
__________________
---

(MyAnimeList banner on hiatus until I bother to update my MyAnimeList status again...)
Ayu-ayu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-05-23, 13:45   Link #35186
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Quote:
Originally Posted by Levani View Post
Not wanna be an ass here but couldn't that also be interpreted as a girl who has a damaged body and doesn't get periods? It's heavily implied, yeah, but I don't think there's a direct confirmation that she was born a boy.
There's also his in-character universe responses, where Lion says that their favorite class in school was Home Ec, then goes on a minor defensive tangent about how it's 'not a girl thing' and 'everyone should know their way around a kitchen'.

That's a pretty damn strong hint that Lion is a boy.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-05-23, 14:11   Link #35187
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Well, there's definitely plentiful of hints Lion is a boy in the manga also.
And in Ep 5 Natsuhi was under the belief the baby was a male.

Interesting enough though Sayo, as far as we know, was never told her biological sex was male.

So if one wants to stay in denial he can assume that she just ended up believing that was the case, therefore expected that Lion, who's basically her dream, her fantasy and her opposite, was a male.

By the time End was written it was impossible to prove if Sayo's belief she was originally a boy was true or not so whoever wrote End (Tohya or Ikuko or both) went along with it and had Natsuhi thinking at the baby as a boy.

Said this I think that, since Ryukishi took the time to give us plenty of extra hints about Lion being a boy and no extra hint at all about Sayo being biologically female, is WAY more likely that Sayo was actually biologically male.

But as Ryukishi isn't ready yet to open this particular catbox the other cat can still exist inside it. It's just that I wouldn't recommend betting on it.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-05-23, 14:21   Link #35188
Levani
貴方が私のマスターか?
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Georgia, Tbilisi
Quote:
So if one wants to stay in denial
Shots fired or this was not directed at me? Either way, I'll let you know that I am not in denial. I do believe Yasu was born a male. All I am saying is that there was never a direct confirmation that Yasu was born male, only implied and hinted at. You can arrive at that reasoning through the hints from the story, however, there is no Red Truth of "Yasu was born a male", unless there is some sort of confirmation that I missed from Ryukishi. If you can show me something like that, I will eat my words.
Levani is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-05-23, 15:00   Link #35189
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Levani View Post
Shots fired or this was not directed at me? Either way, I'll let you know that I am not in denial. I do believe Yasu was born a male. All I am saying is that there was never a direct confirmation that Yasu was born male, only implied and hinted at. You can arrive at that reasoning through the hints from the story, however, there is no Red Truth of "Yasu was born a male", unless there is some sort of confirmation that I missed from Ryukishi. If you can show me something like that, I will eat my words.
Nope, sorry, it was mostly directed at me. I honestly believe Ryukishi meant for Yasu to be born as male... but since I think Sayo wanted to be a girl I like for that possibility to exist. Not that it can do to her any good as the manga basically told us she died, so if she was mistaken in her belief she'll never know. *sighs*

Oh well, at least I can hope she and Battler will be reincarnated and will have another chance at reaching a happy ending... my sort of happy ending just to be clear, not Ryukishi's. :P

And you're right, there's no direct confirmation. Ryukishi was even asked about it and refused to give an answer. That's why I can say the catbox still stand and ultimately everyone is free to believe what he wants.

Logically though the answer has to be the one for which there were hints so the male one wins (especially considering Bern is somewhere sulking so no miracles will happen).

It's interesting though how Ryukishi didn't want to open this particular catbox when he opened so many. Maybe it has something to do with Japanese culture? I admit I'm totally clueless about how Japanese culture would act in this regard, if it's a taboo topic or not.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-05-24, 03:56   Link #35190
Mali
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
The best hint is if the police confiscate the mail bottles and make a DNA test. The case was closed fairly early, right?
But it's possible to find out Sayo's sex using scientific methods unless Sayo was aware of that and put on gloves. But Ryukishi, as you said, wants it to be a cat box.
Mali is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-05-24, 05:36   Link #35191
haguruma
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 34
Send a message via ICQ to haguruma Send a message via MSN to haguruma
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mali View Post
And Tohya also wrote Ep3 and 4?
Well, it was always clear that the Hachij˘s wrote Alliance (EP4) but it always kind of bothered me (and other people here too) why exactly Banquet would be written by them if they knew the answer, since it was always a question of how much Battler actually knew.
With the new information it would actually make sense, if Battler for the rest of his conscious time believed Eva to be the culprit. This would then be filtered through Tohya's broken memory and, even with the information from Confession, end up as a theory in which Eva highjacked the game. It'll still end up not making sense at certain points, since people who shouldn't have ended up dead died.

Quote:
Was Ep7 (I mean the VN version) now written by Tohya from his memory or by Ikuko?
I think EP7 is more like an outsiders attempt to set everything together. The game is created on order of Featherine (Ikuko) and by Bern (the uncaring reader), without any further aid of Battler (Tohya).

Quote:
I didn't like the idea that Sayo throw her confession with the other bottles in the ocean. Wiki says she found it by roadside.
What if ... Tohya is the personification of the bottle mail?
Narratively it wouldn't make much sense.
Ikuko shows the message bottle to him a good time after they've become acquainted with each other. The fact alone that she is using the internet shows that at least 5-6 years must have passed since 1986.
A) There was no direct trigger for Tohya to "become" that message bottle so late.
B) The bottle also contains information that (according to chapter 37) was not given to Battler; like the truth about Sayo's body, Kinzo's transgressions, etc.

Quote:
Why did Tohya try to make Sayo being the culprits in most in his stories? Dedicate them to Sayo? Were we supposed to solve them with Kyrie as the murderer?
It actually makes a lot of sense now (I think jjblue already broke it down a little).
EP1 and 2 are the actual stories written by Sayo, so they would have her as the culprit.
EP3 would be Tohya's first jumbled attempt to recreate the events, maybe even with Ikuko using Confession (since we know she mentions tricks from Banquet in there). Subconsciously he might remember that "Sayo did not murder anyone" and "a fight broke out over the inheritance" so that (fueled by Eva's survival) creates the plot around Eva-Beatrice.
EP4 is him dismissing it, on the grounds that too many discrepancies krept into that first attempt (shown to us by the impossible murder of Nanjo, as well as the fact that Eva was not EVA). Here he uses the plot of the witch as the murderer, but does neither remember the promise, nor is he able to piece together elements like the why.

Quote:
Did Ikuko influenced Ep3 and 4?
I would be surprised if she didn't. She and Featherine are portrayed as total Rokkenjima nuts who absolutely want to have their theory proven right until she suddenly changes her mind during a conference (which I still hope will be explained in the last chapter next month)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mali View Post
The best hint is if the police confiscate the mail bottles and make a DNA test. The case was closed fairly early, right?
But it's possible to find out Sayo's sex using scientific methods unless Sayo was aware of that and put on gloves. But Ryukishi, as you said, wants it to be a cat box.
Well yes, technically a lot of things COULD be done in any fictional universe, but to a certain degree we also have to accept that this was not the way the author intended, so it didn't happen that way.
Also, why would the police take DNA samples if all but one survivor are dead, and said survivor doesn't seem to tell the story of a murder case. DNA sampling in the 80s would have been quite expensive and not very refined yet.
haguruma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-05-24, 08:52   Link #35192
RedKey
天界の異端審問官
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
D-Did... Did Ryukishi really just casually open the catbox?
Holy smothering mother of mackerels. I never thought this day would arrive.
RedKey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-05-25, 02:30   Link #35193
Bluemail
Zero of the roulette
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Finland
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedKey View Post
D-Did... Did Ryukishi really just casually open the catbox?
Holy smothering mother of mackerels. I never thought this day would arrive.
I dreamt it was going to be in this chapter or told by Touya, and I'm glad it is finally happening. Thanks for the translation, haguruma, though I really want to see it in images. Amazing chapter, confirming EP7 Tea Party as Prime and Battler's true character. It even shows that the October 6th boat scene happened about exactly as we were told, giving Battler and Sayo a beautiful moment together before the end. And the chapter itself is called Umineko no Naku Koro ni, how awesome is that?

Looks like it follows what I thought the most likely possibility would be. Beatrice survived Kyrie's gun, met Battler and led him to the underground tunnel. I didn't know the details, but people running around at different times and drawing their own conclusions explains a lot of the confusion about the truth. We also finally see how Eva got the head's ring.

I'm also glad we got to see the real Battler before the end. I didn't doubt his nature too much, as I interpret Meta-Battler as Touya's hidden memory of who he was and the bond to his family. Sayo directly confessing to Battler also gives credibility to the truth he reached and explains his behaviour in the October 6th segment.

It's sad how Sayo hated her body so much that even after gaining Battler's forgiveness and encouragement to live she decided to die without telling anyone. Actually, could Sayo confessing most of the truth but still being afraid of revealing the state of her body also be a nod to how Ryuukishi initially wanted people to reach their own conclusion about that?

What surprised me the most was the addition of the final scene. I always loved the cyclical nature of Umineko's story, that Battler and Beatrice sinking to the sea together at the end of EP8 leads to their meeting in Purgatorio in EP1 and I'm so happy it is shown this explicitly. It also gives merit to the idea that Meta-Beatrice and Meta-Battler were always the true souls of the two from Rokkenjima Prime, and not just interpretations, which I appreciate a lot.

So, will we ever get an Umineko Hou with these scenes added to EP8, or do we have to do it ourselves? Perhaps Umineko's 10th anniversary in 2017? I also hope that brings a new anime adaptation by an actually competent studio and director, haha.
Bluemail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-05-25, 07:07   Link #35194
Levani
貴方が私のマスターか?
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Georgia, Tbilisi
Quote:
I also hope that brings a new anime adaptation by an actually competent studio and director, haha.
*whispers* Studio Ufotable...
Levani is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-06-01, 19:49   Link #35195
Megumi Kitagawa
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
I'm reading through the manga and some parts of the EP8 VN, but I'm lost on a few technical issues.

1) Battler received no damaging effects from Featherine's cats because, apparently, they can't interfere with Battler's tale. But didn't Lambdadelta interfere with the tale by attacking Bernkastel, who shares the game master title in EP8? And even if Lambdadelta gets counted as being part of the tale, why would Featherine be allowed to kill her and yet her cats not be able to do anything against Battler? Is it simply a "it's Featherine" thing along with her backing down, so Battler and Ange could actually win in the end without it looking that ridiculous?

2) Featherine says that only game masters can weave tales on their game board, but the characters are well outside of Battler's territory, so why would the game board extend all of the way to the City of Books? The games seem to just be set on Rokkenjima in this Episode, so I'm confused on that part.

3) And that leads me into this question (which may sound stupid ): the characters are the meta versions when they're in the City of Books, right? And during the party as well? Because the transition seems a bit foggy with them escaping to the Golden Land and then going to the City of Books. The use of "game board" that I asked about in the first question and its extension to the City of Books that I asked about in the second question throws me off since it kind of introduces the possibility that EP8 is just one big game written by someone.

I guess these might be minor issues to think about, but I notice small things a lot of the time.
Megumi Kitagawa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-06-02, 11:16   Link #35196
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Megumi Kitagawa View Post
I'm reading through the manga and some parts of the EP8 VN, but I'm lost on a few technical issues.

1) Battler received no damaging effects from Featherine's cats because, apparently, they can't interfere with Battler's tale. But didn't Lambdadelta interfere with the tale by attacking Bernkastel, who shares the game master title in EP8? And even if Lambdadelta gets counted as being part of the tale, why would Featherine be allowed to kill her and yet her cats not be able to do anything against Battler? Is it simply a "it's Featherine" thing along with her backing down, so Battler and Ange could actually win in the end without it looking that ridiculous?
Featherine is a superior entity. Very likely she could have trashed Battler with a mere blink, even if she wasn't in his tale.

Let's call Battler's tale 'Ange's choice', Battler is the writer of 'Ange's choice'.
Bern is also writing a parallel version of 'Ange's choice'.
Featherine is the writer of the tale in in which Battler and Bern both write 'Ange's choice'.
In short both Bern and Battler become characters from Featherine's perspective and therefore she tops them both.

Featherine's cats though are mere characters of other tales. They aren't at Featherine's level and since they come from other tales they can't influence Battler's tale. He's just... not writing them in his own tale.

Lambda instead was written in 'Ange's choice'. She's a character of that tale and, in addition to this, she'a also a witch probably on an even footing with Bern and Battler. Not only she can interact directly as a character in the tale but I guess she also has the power to... bug the authors of the tale. Think at her as someone who's actively trying to stop Bern from writing her version of Ange's 'choice'... like someone who's trying to pull away from her all the paper (well, Lambda insist she's paper after all)... or giving her a writer block.

Again she's no match for Featherine because to Featherine she's also just a character.

Also if you look at the manga is interesting to see how the Featherine that defeat Lambda can be seen as a self insertion of the writer Featherine that's writing the story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megumi Kitagawa View Post
2) Featherine says that only game masters can weave tales on their game board, but the characters are well outside of Battler's territory, so why would the game board extend all of the way to the City of Books? The games seem to just be set on Rokkenjima in this Episode, so I'm confused on that part.
Take this as my wild guess as there's no official answer but I think that the whole situation is sort of similar to a crossover.
Battler and Ange were taken in another gameboard/story/whatever by Lambda, which is a character who can cross over freely (a voyager witch) but they were still weaving their own story, even if they were out of their gameboard/setting which was meant to end with Beato posing a question to Ange and Ange chosing one of the two doors. Whatever happened in between was just extra plot development.

At least that's my interpretation. There's not an official one as far as I know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megumi Kitagawa View Post
3) And that leads me into this question (which may sound stupid ): the characters are the meta versions when they're in the City of Books, right? And during the party as well? Because the transition seems a bit foggy with them escaping to the Golden Land and then going to the City of Books. The use of "game board" that I asked about in the first question and its extension to the City of Books that I asked about in the second question throws me off since it kind of introduces the possibility that EP8 is just one big game written by someone.

I guess these might be minor issues to think about, but I notice small things a lot of the time.
We don't really know.
I prefer to consider the magic party as meta as well because otherwise this would make the party fantasy, therefore something that never happened but that was just an embellishment of the tale, and this is a bit sad... but well, it can fit.

Still, I like to think that at the end of Ep 6, when all the characters reached the golden land, they were all turned into meta and therefore could take part to the party as their meta versions.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-06-03, 17:50   Link #35197
haguruma
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 34
Send a message via ICQ to haguruma Send a message via MSN to haguruma
Okay, just to add how I actually interpreted these elements:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Megumi Kitagawa View Post
1) Battler received no damaging effects from Featherine's cats because, apparently, they can't interfere with Battler's tale. But didn't Lambdadelta interfere with the tale by attacking Bernkastel, who shares the game master title in EP8?
Lambda and Bern's battle is not necessarily about the gameboard, while Battler and Bern's is.
If we strip away all the fanciness again then it comes down to this. Both Bern and Battler are authors of the same tale at this point. Battler is trying to write a story about how his family wasn't so bad, while Bern is trying to write a story about how they were monsters, and apparently they are working on the same script...a co-authored tale so to say.
But Lambda, while on the same level as Bern and Battler, is not actively writing this tale. When she is engaging in battle with Bern, she is basically just keeping her from continuing to write on and argue about the story at hand. She is the distracting friend that comes over to your house and won't let you write.

The cats don't have any effect on Battler, because as outsiders to the story that Battler and Bern are writing, they have no immediate effect on his tale. They could land a lucky hit, but overall Battler's knowledge of his tale trumps theirs.

Quote:
And even if Lambdadelta gets counted as being part of the tale, why would Featherine be allowed to kill her and yet her cats not be able to do anything against Battler?
It's because in this case Featherine acts as "the author of the tale of life". In Umineko's universe our whole world is fiction to a bigger universe (that of the witches), but the witches universe itself is yet again mere fiction to the realm of the gods.

Quote:
2) Featherine says that only game masters can weave tales on their game board, but the characters are well outside of Battler's territory, so why would the game board extend all of the way to the City of Books?
It isn't. The City of Books merely becomes the battleground for the argument about the gameboard.

Quote:
3) And that leads me into this question (which may sound stupid ): the characters are the meta versions when they're in the City of Books, right?

it kind of introduces the possibility that EP8 is just one big game written by someone.
I wouldn't differentiate between meta-version and pieces so much. Basically the meta-characters are used as pieces and then limited in their function depending on what the script requires of them. Like actors.
Every character on the Rokkenjima stage is a meta-being in and of itself (which shows by them being aware of what's happened to them at certain points), but while they are "in-character" so to speak, at least the human characters don't show any knowledge of it because the story wouldn't allow them to.

Twilight of the golden witch is, in a way, yet another tale written by somebody, but EP8 also pictures the struggle of Ange in a symbolic way...so make of that what you want.

EDIT
I just stumbled on another interview session with Ryukishi that was being held on a US-convention a while ago, and he was actually asked about both Rosatrice and Sayo's transgender identity. His answers, while not necessarily groundbreaking, still shed some light into discussions from a while ago again.
You can find a summary and the video here.

Just to add a few things, since the translator (while probably doing her best) is not that well versed in high-level Japanese, so some of her translations left me a little wanting.
When asked about Rosatrice he said that he liked taking popular theories he could to throw people off their game. He did specifically refer to it as a theory though.

When asked about whether Sayo could be viewed as being transgender, his answer was a little bit more concrete than the translation conveyed, I think. He said that, since this element is part of the core of the mystery that makes up Umineko, he is unable to answer this question, but he considers the transgender-theory undoubtetly fascinating.

Last edited by haguruma; 2015-06-04 at 06:29.
haguruma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-06-05, 18:29   Link #35198
Megumi Kitagawa
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
I'd like to thank you both for answering, and it'd be quite a bit to quote, so excuse me for not doing so.

1) I figured that that was the reason why they weren't able to affect him, and it makes sense with what Featherine told us. I didn't pay much attention to details like that the first tie around, but when I saw it my second go at it, I a bit lost with the meta(-meta?)fictional aspects that Ryukishi had going there. Some of EP8's scenes had me in a bit of a tizzy, so I guess I should start looking at it from the point of view of Ryukishi instead of just a regular reader.

2) Okay, I guess I can see that this is up to interpretation. I don't know. I kind of like my WMG of a mystery person writing the entirety of EP8. As unsupported as it may be.

3) II suppose what you both say makes sense. I guess I was looking for confirmation from others, so I would just blindly jump to conclusions that might've ended up being incorrect.

Once again, I thank you both for your posts. getting different views is always helpful.

And thank you for the interview, haguruma!
Megumi Kitagawa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-06-06, 12:41   Link #35199
TheSoreika
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Age: 28
Ok, I am pretty sure this has been went over or something but I wanted to ask this question. In a past stream I did, I notice Eva saying something about silver spoons and poison. I brought it up with person I am reading with during the stream and he laughed it off. So I am going to ask here. Was that relevant to the adults being drugged/poisoned in that Episode and other Episodes? I don't recall reading about it in the manga nor seeing it in the anime. But it stood out to me that they stopped to mention silver spoons are used to detect poison in tea and tea is prepared by Ghoda but delivered normally by Shannon. Maybe I am over analyzing but am I right or was he right and I am over thinking it? Also thanks everyone for the replies and I did read All of Goat reading seacats. I will keep there thoughts in mind while developing my own I like how umineko is technically done but there is always new things to think about.
TheSoreika is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2015-06-07, 18:36   Link #35200
jjblue1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Natsumi Kei has written something about Umineko in her blog. Google translate made a mess of it but I've the feeling it means she has finished drawing Umineko? So this month we really had the last chapter? It's just... it feels surreal Umineko is going to end...
Spoiler for Natsumi Kei's words:


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSoreika View Post
Ok, I am pretty sure this has been went over or something but I wanted to ask this question. In a past stream I did, I notice Eva saying something about silver spoons and poison. I brought it up with person I am reading with during the stream and he laughed it off. So I am going to ask here. Was that relevant to the adults being drugged/poisoned in that Episode and other Episodes? I don't recall reading about it in the manga nor seeing it in the anime. But it stood out to me that they stopped to mention silver spoons are used to detect poison in tea and tea is prepared by Ghoda but delivered normally by Shannon. Maybe I am over analyzing but am I right or was he right and I am over thinking it? Also thanks everyone for the replies and I did read All of Goat reading seacats. I will keep there thoughts in mind while developing my own I like how umineko is technically done but there is always new things to think about.
Well, as far as I can remember silver spoons weren't involved in the plot.
As for poison...
Maria died of either poison or overdose in Ep 4. In Ep 3 Eva likely poisoned/drugged Krauss and Natsuhi with her coffee (which has such a strong taste it might have covered up the taste of drug/poison) before killing them. In Ep 2 the adults were poisoned in the first twilight (confirmed by Ep 8 manga version).

Anyway, due to all this, poison/drug was definitely involved in the murders so if you want you can see it as a hint.
jjblue1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:58.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
We use Silk.