Madoka Magica - Spoilers & Speculation

[gsilver]

Speculation:


Madoka wishes for Morning Rescue
Morning Rescue is powerful enough to keep her soul gem from corrupting
Madoka uses her laws-of-physics-defying powers to revive everyone

Kyubey realizes that Morning Rescue is even more effective at combating entropy than the Puella Magi-Witch system, and begins granting wishes in exchange for Morning Rescue.

[NaweG]

Originally Posted by Kagekyuubi

- Urobuchi saying that he didn't think about how exactly Homura's time travel works. He's lying and it's going to be very important in the end.

Given his past record, I agree this is probably a last attempt to troll the fan base. You don't just "accidentally" add time travel to your story and figure "it will all work out" unless you are a very sloppy writer. Gen has given no evidence of being that.

[gsilver]

Well, Homura's story for the class did change from being a transfer student to being in the hospital, and she has a lot of abilities in episode 1 that are never seen again, that I'm aware of.

[zRyuu]

Lots of abilities? If you are talking about that magic shooting thingy she used to kill QB in episode 1, she was going to use it again in ep 8 against Sayaka. And I think she used it again on ep 10 when she was chasing QB.

[Snork]

Spoiler for Sayaka:

I know. It's just that I personally prefer to think that she didn't, so I'm glad that Shinbo is going with that, while Gen is open to that. I'm more concerned with the anime than with the manga.

Spoiler for Sayaka:

The manga in general seems like the ElfenLied-ish mod of the original to me. A so-called "no discretion edition". I'll rather follow Shinbo on that. Sayaka's encounter on the train was relevant per se (leading her to question the ideals she had been clutching to). I presumed the worst outcome based on Shinbo's words that "a character who killed other people can't have a happy ending", since they seemed to be related to Sayaka's case (and I can't figure out who else he might have meant). Then again, logically thinking... if Sayaka had killed them, the realisation of what she did could have made her go witch right there. Instead, we have a downright depressed broken hero who's apathetic to everything including her nearing death and this is who Kyouko meets at the station. The misogynists in question probably got out unscathed, just really disturbed (or really scared - depending on whether they were treated to the same brief scene as the audience).

P.S. I wonder why we have come to use tags again - doesn't this thread bear the word "SPOILERS" in its very name?

leading to Kyuubey capturing Walpurgisnacht's grief seed fulfilling its quota

Once again, we stumble at the idea of Kyuubey collecting energy in the form of Grief Seeds. Which has yet to be clarified. After all, Kyuubey claimed his quota to be fulfilled in TL4 before getting Gretchen's Grief Seed (and good luck getting it, really). Or was it just Walpurgis Night's seed he needed all the time? Then he would have left right after the battle in TL1, having no purpose in contracting Homura, and he also would have encouraged any team-up like Homura and Kyouko's to defeat Walpurgis Night rather than specifically stalking Madoka alone. Nah, so far this option has too many holes in it.

- Homura told Kyoko she'd be gone after Walpurgisnacht

Well, she needed Kyouko to stop seeing her as a rival, right?

- Staff says that the ending is happy but not everyone will see it that way.

Saya no Uta much?

Well, Homura's story for the class did change from being a transfer student to being in the hospital

Wasn't it vice versa? Besides, she may have really transferred from another school (for example, the one being closer to her home since her illness ruled out long walks). As to her athletic abilities... The body of a magical girl is more durable, after all.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Snork

Then again, logically thinking... if Sayaka had killed them, the realisation of what she did could have made her go witch right there.

Well, she may not have physically turned into a witch there, but she clearly became corrupted beyond belief. That dark witch energy oozed out of her Soul Gem-ring and covered her body. Her eye was shown to be covered in musical notes (as was her witch's realm, in a sense).

And yeah, I don't get the spoiler tags either.

[Snork]

"dark witch energy" also sounds rather vague to me, but oh well. Sayaka is the only example of going over the edge through despair we have on hand. Darkness covering her may be literal or just there for visual emphasis (this is Shaft we're talking about )

We don't know how Sayaka became a witch in TL3, and Madoka always did it through depleting her resourses. Although in TL3 she was also broken horribly, so I won't dare predict how long she would hold on even if she survived Walpurgis Night.
Hmm, it emphasizes TL3 even stronger. Surviving Walpurgis Night or not, it may be doubtful if Madoka wanted to live at all. She had lost her friends in most terrible ways and she knew that someday she might change from hero to mosnter and destroy everything she had tried to protect. She also knew about Homura's powers by that time. And even if she hesitated in that memorable scene, her last surviving friend's words of despair and surrender to terrible fate cemented her decision. She bet everything on Homura and her powers. It was no longer a matter of surviving the battle or dying as a hero (and she might have not remembered such an outcome anyway, it being two timelines back) - it was a matter of never getting involved in the first place and never having to see her friends (at least Sayaka and Homura) suffer and die.

So IMHO her request didn't just raise Homura's determination - it changed Homura's very goal. Otherwise, our meganekko could have proceed with her Cassandra attempts or even simply stocking up on Grief Seeds to help any WN survivors get through (might have done it from the start - seriously, whoever faces the final boss without a load of potions and phoenix downs? ). Unfortunately, this same request, combined with the psychological strain Homura had already gone through, caused her to prioritize Madoka over everyone else. Despite the fact that living with the knowledge of the awful truth and the memories of your dear friends' last words/tears/smiles... does not QUITE qualifies as a happy outcome for Madoka herself.

[Shadow5YA]

I wonder if this means Homura is doomed to repeat that month regardless of whether she succeeds or not. If it does, then if she succeeds, her only choice is to die. That would be a fitting end for someone who devoted her life and soul to save Madoka.

[Akashin]

I thought so too for a moment, but as far as I can tell she isn't forced to rewind time after the month--she just can't rewind time prior to the ending of the month. What happens to her after that month is up for debate, but it seems as though whether or not she goes back in time is entirely her choice.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Akashin

I thought so too for a moment, but as far as I can tell she isn't forced to rewind time after the month--she just can't rewind time prior to the ending of the month. What happens to her after that month is up for debate, but it seems as though whether or not she goes back in time is entirely her choice.

Is it? Urobuchi stated that she goes back in time when the sand runs out.

[Akashin]

Spoiler for Homura:

UG - The weapon that looks like Homura's shield is actually a sand timer. When the flow of the sand is blocked, time is stopped. And when there is no sand on the upper part of the sand timer and then the timer is reverted, one month's worth of time is turned back. But before that stage is reached, only time stopping is possible. This means the special power of Homura is the ability to manipulate one month's time's worth of sand in the sand timer. As for the time passed and then turned back, since it was not the focus in this work I did not think it through very thoroughly. I think you can say that the world split up and became parallel worlds there.

I suppose one could take this either way, but I personally take this to mean that she manually chooses whether or not to go back in time. The way he says in the following sentence "before that stage is reached, only time stopping is possible" leaves me to believe she has full control over both, so long as the conditions for turning back time are met.

[GDB]

Plus, in previous loops, she seemed to activate the rewind herself. Otherwise she has the most impeccable timing ever and a sense for dramatic flair.

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by GDB

Plus, in previous loops, she seemed to activate the rewind herself. Otherwise she has the most impeccable timing ever and a sense for dramatic flair.

=/ In all fairness, episode 8 proves she indeed has both.

[Deconstructor]

Originally Posted by Akashin

Spoiler for Homura:

And when there is no sand on the upper part of the sand timer and then the timer is reverted, one month's worth of time is turned back. But before that stage is reached, only time stopping is possible.

I suppose one could take this either way, but I personally take this to mean that she manually chooses whether or not to go back in time. The way he says in the following sentence "before that stage is reached, only time stopping is possible" leaves me to believe she has full control over both, so long as the conditions for turning back time are met.

Well, if the sands of time fall at a constant rate, then Homura has no control over the time reversal. At least until the sand runs out. When the sands run out, then Homura may or may not have control. Previous temporal evidence supports the latter: all of the timelines ended in the exact same point in time - after the battle with Walpurgi's Night. The pattern suggests a fixed time (one month) of reversal, and therefore a fixed rate at which the sand falls from the top to the bottom, regardless if Madoka is dead, alive, crazy, saved, witch, etc. In addition, time will reverse itself regardless of the events happening outside the hourglass... Kyubey and Walpurgi's Night may be defeated with Madoka saved, but time can run out regardless. So Homura will be forced to do this forever, until Madoka makes a wish to interfere with Homura's. Bummer.

The more interesting (but less likely) case is to assume Homura has control over the sands of time. If a miracle happens, then Homura can simply stop the sand from flowing and live happily with Madoka thereafter. Or, she could twist the hourglass upside down, causing the sands of time to flow backward. Instead of going back one month, she goes forward one month and lives time in reverse. She is determined to protect Madoka her entire life, from the battle against Walpurgi's Night all the way to Madoka's birth. The ultimate stalker delight. However, time flows forward for Madoka and other human beings.

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

Well, if the sands of time fall at a constant rate, then Homura has no control over the time reversal. At least until the sand runs out. When the sands run out, then Homura may or may not have control. Previous temporal evidence supports the latter: all of the timelines ended in the exact same point in time - after the battle with Walpurgi's Night. The pattern suggests a fixed time (one month) of reversal, and therefore a fixed rate at which the sand falls from the top to the bottom, regardless if Madoka is dead, alive, crazy, saved, witch, etc. In addition, time will reverse itself regardless of the events happening outside the hourglass... Kyubey and Walpurgi's Night may be defeated with Madoka saved, but time can run out regardless. So Homura will be forced to do this forever, until Madoka makes a wish to interfere with Homura's. Bummer.

Previous temporal evidence supports neither side more than the other, really; the timelines end at roughly the same time since that's the end of the one month (Homura wakes up ---> Walpurgis fight aftermath). And since in every instance we've seen Madoka is either dead or a Witch (meaning Homura would want to go back regardless), there's nothing to suggest whether the reversal of time is controlled or automatic. And I never said Homura controls the flow of the sands of time, just the stalling and (arguably) the reversing of it. Unless I'm missing something, none of this makes her being stuck in a permanent loop anything more than a plausible theory.

[Deconstructor]

Originally Posted by Akashin

Previous temporal evidence supports neither side more than the other, really; the timelines end at roughly the same time since that's the end of the one month (Homura wakes up ---> Walpurgis fight aftermath). And since in every instance we've seen Madoka is either dead or a Witch (meaning Homura would want to go back regardless), there's nothing to suggest whether the reversal of time is controlled or automatic.

Actually, the quote suggests Homura having no control over the time reversal. First, she definitely has no control until one month passes, which suggests she has no control over the hourglass even when one month passes. Before this time, "only time stopping is possible." Second, Urobuchi said: "And when there is no sand on the upper part of the sand timer and then the timer is reverted, one month's worth of time is turned back." If Homura had control, then the second part should have been "Homura can choose to turn back one month of time."

Madoka's death or witchification could be the reason why Homura goes back in time. We still are unaware of whether Homura's wish is directly tied into this power, or if her wish only resulted in the first time reversal. However, Urobuchi says the reason is sand running out in an hourglass; I assume the sand falls regardless of what happens to Madoka. Since time has reset at the same time every time - and taking everyone but Homura out of the picture - I conclude the hourglass also has a fixed amount of sand and falling rate.

Originally Posted by Akashin

And I never said Homura controls the flow of the sands of time, just the stalling and (arguably) the reversing of it. Unless I'm missing something, none of this makes her being stuck in a permanent loop anything more than a plausible theory.

Homura has yet to break out of the time loop and has went through five iterations. The pattern should be enough evidence to support the theory, even if Homura wanted to go back.

Stalling the sands of time is a level of control. Perhaps an indirect control from stopping all of time, but still control. Someone previously noted Homura used the passive form of the verb repeat, as in "I will repeat" versus the commanding form, as in "Time, repeat."

Qualitatively, many wishes have backfired upon the wisher in ironic ways. In Homura's case, it would be quite ironic if Madoka was saved, but Homura was forced to repeat time anyway. Alone, this means Homura has trapped herself and Madoka with her seemingly considerate wish. However, the loop can be broken through other ways, like Madoka wishing or Homura dying.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

Qualitatively, many wishes have backfired upon the wisher in ironic ways. In Homura's case, it would be quite ironic if Madoka was saved, but Homura was forced to repeat time anyway. Alone, this means Homura has trapped herself and Madoka with her seemingly considerate wish. However, the loop can be broken through other ways, like Madoka wishing or Homura dying.

Didn't a Megami article already say Homura is going to die before Madoka decides whether to contract or not? If it's correct (not sure!!), that answers that....

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

Actually, the quote suggests Homura having no control over the time reversal. First, she definitely has no control until one month passes, which suggests she has no control over the hourglass even when one month passes. Before this time, "only time stopping is possible." Second, Urobuchi said: "And when there is no sand on the upper part of the sand timer and then the timer is reverted, one month's worth of time is turned back." If Homura had control, then the second part should have been "Homura can choose to turn back one month of time."

Madoka's death or witchification could be the reason why Homura goes back in time. We still are unaware of whether Homura's wish is directly tied into this power, or if her wish only resulted in the first time reversal. However, Urobuchi says the reason is sand running out in an hourglass; I assume the sand falls regardless of what happens to Madoka. Since time has reset at the same time every time - and taking everyone but Homura out of the picture - I conclude the hourglass also has a fixed amount of sand and falling rate.

What do you mean, having no control during the one month? As far as I can tell, Homura's hourglass is the equivalent of a clock with a pause button; I'm not sure what more control you can have than that, except physically being able to turn back time whenever you want. It has a fixed amount of sand and falling rate in the sense that it has "one month's worth of sand", and it would be pretty silly to say this is subjective to Madoka's status (which, until Kazu-kun posted these spoilers, was my assumption; that Homura could only turn back time if Madoka was in such a state that "redoing their meeting" became necessary).

Also, that quotation can be taken a totally different way. You say that the second part implies a lack of control, but I say the "and then" in the first part implies the opposite; that if she chooses to turn back time after the one month, one month of time is turned back (which is perhaps specifying that she cannot go further back than this, as obvious as that should already be). I won't say this with absolute certainty because you do have something of a point regarding the second part of that quote, but the first part definitely implies rewinding time being her choice.

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

Homura has yet to break out of the time loop and has went through five iterations. The pattern should be enough evidence to support the theory, even if Homura wanted to go back.

Stalling the sands of time is a level of control. Perhaps an indirect control from stopping all of time, but still control. Someone previously noted Homura used the passive form of the verb repeat, as in "I will repeat" versus the commanding form, as in "Time, repeat."

Qualitatively, many wishes have backfired upon the wisher in ironic ways. In Homura's case, it would be quite ironic if Madoka was saved, but Homura was forced to repeat time anyway. Alone, this means Homura has trapped herself and Madoka with her seemingly considerate wish. However, the loop can be broken through other ways, like Madoka wishing or Homura dying.

I'm not going to debate that quote since I don't recall when it was said or the context behind it; if you could provide either/both pieces of information, that would be great. For now I'm going to mostly dismiss it, since without the aforementioned information to support it, I'm willing to pass that wording off as dramatic flair.

On the subject of the loops proving anything, I don't really see how. As I said it was entirely her choice to go back whether or not she did so manually, so unless we get proof that turning back time is completely automatic that's a moot point. As we stand all the loops prove is that Homura is dedicated to saving Madoka; that she has failed utterly every time has more to do with her inability to defeat Walpurgis on her own and Madoka's seeming destiny to die/go Witch than anything else.

Your point about wishes backfiring could be solid though. I personally think that the mental trauma of her inevitable failure is punishment enough and that any more than that is overly cruel, but it's not impossible. And in all fairness, at this point a devastatingly cruel ending like that doesn't sound completely unlikely.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Akashin

On the subject of the loops proving anything, I don't really see how. As I said it was entirely her choice to go back whether or not she did so manually, so unless we get proof that turning back time is completely automatic that's a moot point.

I'm not sure. I mean, Homura always wakes up in the hospital, in the same day, seemingly at the same time. This suggests going back in times happens automatically, at a fixed moment in time, and not her choice, otherwise she wouldn't wake up always at that specific moment.

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

I'm not sure. I mean, Homura always wakes up in the hospital, in the same day, seemingly at the same time. This suggests going back in times happens automatically, at a fixed moment in time, and not her choice, otherwise she wouldn't wake up always at that specific moment.

...

Huh.

That's actually a fairly good argument. Of course, for all we know she has gone back further than then before (as a result of going back a few minutes earlier, for example) and we simply wouldn't know since, you know, she'd be going back in time to her comatose self and the new timeline wouldn't be relevant until she wakes up. However that doesn't account for going back a few minutes later to when she technically should already be out of bed, so point to you there.