Sword Art Online - Anime General Discussion [NO SPOILERS]

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Salt

OK, if I'm correct this show is super popular.

So, the question is "Why?". [...] If you like the show, at least tell me what you like about it.

I think the "rushed" nature of the character development is greatly exaggerated. Their relationship in particular was developed over the entire course of the story, starting from Episode 2, thorough the various side stories, and all the way to Episode 14. That's more time and covers more events than a lot of one-cour anime (and even some two-cour anime) do. Certain specific events may seem rushed at first glance, but if you look more closely at the connected events and situations, it makes a fair bit of sense -- to me, anyway. Events are deeply connected to one another in ways both subtle and obvious, so I've found episodes usually warrant a second viewing to pick up on things missed during the first round.

Other than that... I've played a number of MMORPGs, so the subject is instantly accessible to me. I think the world is interesting along with a number of the concepts explored, and I find the characters quite engaging (both main and side). I find the art and animation quite decent, many of the in-game vistas presented to be quite beautiful, and the music is quite nice as well. And, for whatever flaws the story has, I still generally enjoy it a lot more than not. I also think the franchise does generate some interesting fan discussions (even if there is an ever-encroaching army of novel readers who want to give everything away).

So I guess the long and short of it is that everyone has their own tastes, and I guess the things I enjoy about the show just aren't compatible with your tastes. I think the reason it's likely popular is because it blends elements of so many different genres (sci-fi, fantasy, action, romance, etc.) so there's potentially something for everyone... but that also means that more people will try it out and find it isn't for them (possibly because it doesn't focus strongly enough on whatever genre they are most drawn to). If the story were more narrowly-focused to start with, fewer people would try it (but those who try it after researching it may be more likely to enjoy it). For a late night anime, you could probably say this is about as close to mainstream entertainment as anime gets.

[Divini]

Originally Posted by Salt

OK, if I'm correct this show is super popular.

So, the question is "Why?". No troll, I swear...

Well I can't speak for anyone else, but I will give my personal reasons:

1. I'm a fan of the source material, which in my opinion is well... epic. It makes me recognize, but ultimately overlook the storytelling flaws of the anime.

2. Kirito is the ace, not indecisive when it comes to love interests, and not a butt-monkey. Which is rare for a LN protagonist.

3. It's based off MMOs, and the setting is really enhanced if you're used to its culture. I used to be a heavy MMO-gamer, so that appeal is always there. The way it's VR is wish-fulfilling.

[Salt]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I think the "rushed" nature of the character development is greatly exaggerated. Their relationship in particular was developed over the entire course of the story, starting from Episode 2, thorough the various side stories, and all the way to Episode 14. That's more time and covers more events than a lot of one-cour anime (and even some two-cour anime) do. Certain specific events may seem rushed at first glance, but if you look more closely at the connected events and situations, it makes a fair bit of sense -- to me, anyway. Events are deeply connected to one another in ways both subtle and obvious, so I've found episodes usually warrant a second viewing to pick up on things missed during the first round.

I think my main issue is with the Kirito/Asuna romance. I'm, lacking a better word, "unconvinced". They went from "zero to hero" so quickly, that it felt rushed over - that the script writers just glued them together as a couple and tell us to accept it.

Maybe my standards have been warped by having watch too many (to be healthy) harem/romance anime, where romance is the main plot, but I kind of expected better. For example, Amagami SS's Tsukasa Ayatsuji's arc was amazing and it was done in only 4 eps - with considerable backstory too. While SAO is over 14 episodes and I still don't quite "feel it".

PS: IMO they could also have shorten/speed up some of the side plots and reallocated the time. Those took up a considerable amount of time and dragged on a bit.

Other than that... I've played a number of MMORPGs, so the subject is instantly accessible to me. I think the world is interesting along with a number of the concepts explored, and I find the characters quite engaging (both main and side). I find the art and animation quite decent, many of the in-game vistas presented to be quite beautiful, and the music is quite nice as well. And, for whatever flaws the story has, I still generally enjoy it a lot more than not. I also think the franchise does generate some interesting fan discussions (even if there is an ever-encroaching army of novel readers who want to give everything away).

The setting was the only reason I made it to ep 14 - the OP and ED were good too. But now that the arc has ended ...

So I guess the long and short of it is that everyone has their own tastes, and I guess the things I enjoy about the show just aren't compatible with your tastes. I think the reason it's likely popular is because it blends elements of so many different genres (sci-fi, fantasy, action, romance, etc.) so there's potentially something for everyone... but that also means that more people will try it out and find it isn't for them (possibly because it doesn't focus strongly enough on whatever genre they are most drawn to). If the story were more narrowly-focused to start with, fewer people would try it (but those who try it after researching it may be more likely to enjoy it). For a late night anime, you could probably say this is about as close to mainstream entertainment as anime gets.

I guess I expected it to be better executed. :/

Originally Posted by Divini

Well I can't speak for anyone else, but I will give my personal reasons:

1. I'm a fan of the source material, which in my opinion is well... epic. It makes me recognize, but ultimately overlook the storytelling flaws of the anime.

2. Kirito is the ace, not indecisive when it comes to love interests, and not a butt-monkey. Which is rare for a LN protagonist.

3. It's based off MMOs, and the setting is really enhanced if you're used to its culture. I used to be a heavy MMO-gamer, so that appeal is always there. The way it's VR is wish-fulfilling.

I think that I not having read the source material is what is hurting it for me. Having viewed it as a standalone anime, I'm more or less judging it on it's own merits - which I found wanting.

Heh. I have no issues with indecisive, butt-monkey male leads. The indecisive-ness is necessary to maintain the love triangles (polygons) and the butt-monkey-ness is mostly comic relief as the lead plays "straight guy" to the most of the time fairly wacky cast.

Played quite a bit of WoW a few years back. For most part it works for and against me when it came to shows like this. It's like being relative well versed in how computers worked and then see a movie when the someone "Hacks a satellite !!!" ... YOU CAN'T DO THAT! Those things use custom hardware and software, there is no way anyone can hack into it "just like that" without months of information gathering and research, and this is overlooking the fact that the said satellite must have the shittiest security ever.

Spoiler for Probably unnecessary. It just talks about things from ep1-14.:

There is no way Kirito could have done what he did in the episode with the AI girl. Even if he had administrator access, there is no way in hell as a player he would know enough about the system to manipulate it like that - no matter how good at the game he is.

Then there is Kirito/Asuna "will-powering" out of death/paralysis, but I'm willing to let that one side as "dramatic license".

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by Salt

I think my main issue is with the Kirito/Asuna romance. I'm, lacking a better word, "unconvinced". They went from "zero to hero" so quickly, that it felt rushed over - that the script writers just glued them together as a couple and tell us to accept it.

That's more or less just how the story is written. The SAO novel started with a prologue to explain the premise, then jumped straight to floor 74. No amount of short stories is going to be able to fill that two year gap, hence why Kawahara is rewriting the entire Aincrad arc in the Progressive series.

Originally Posted by Salt

For example, Amagami SS's Tsukasa Ayatsuji's arc was amazing and it was done in only 4 eps - with considerable backstory too. While SAO is over 14 episodes and I still don't quite "feel it".

Amagami's story arcs only covers what, a week? the two doesn't really compare, the timescale, not to mention the genre, is too different.

Originally Posted by Salt

I think that I not having read the source material is what is hurting it for me. Having viewed it as a standalone anime, I'm more or less judging it on it's own merits - which I found wanting.

Heh. I have no issues with indecisive, butt-monkey male leads. The indecisive-ness is necessary to maintain the love triangles (polygons) and the butt-monkey-ness is mostly comic relief as the lead plays "straight guy" to the most of the time fairly wacky cast.

Heh, there are no love polygons of any sort in SAO, and Klein's got the comic relief role nailed down

Originally Posted by Salt

Played quite a bit of WoW a few years back. For most part it works for and against me when it came to shows like this. It's like being relative well versed in how computers worked and then see a movie when the someone "Hacks a satellite !!!" ... YOU CAN'T DO THAT! Those things use custom hardware and software, there is no way anyone can hack into it "just like that" without months of information gathering and research, and this is overlooking the fact that the said satellite must have the shittiest security ever.

I understand the feeling, but the key here is whether it's internally consistent, not so much whether it's consistent with real life. After all, this is fiction, not a documentary. It's just something that you have to try to move past. I can spend all day pointing out flaws and inconsistencies war/actions films, but that's missing the point.

as far as the "will-powering", it's actually a specific concept/mechanic that gets expanded later on in the story, but for now it's going to feel like a regular DEM.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Salt

I think my main issue is with the Kirito/Asuna romance. I'm, lacking a better word, "unconvinced". They went from "zero to hero" so quickly, that it felt rushed over - that the script writers just glued them together as a couple and tell us to accept it.

Maybe my standards have been warped by having watch too many (to be healthy) harem/romance anime, where romance is the main plot, but I kind of expected better. For example, Amagami SS's Tsukasa Ayatsuji's arc was amazing and it was done in only 4 eps - with considerable backstory too. While SAO is over 14 episodes and I still don't quite "feel it".

PS: IMO they could also have shorten/speed up some of the side plots and reallocated the time. Those took up a considerable amount of time and dragged on a bit.

I've seen plenty of romance anime too (it's my favourite genre); I honestly think Asuna and Kirito actually do get more development than Tsukasa does in Amagami SS on the whole, but it doesn't always fill the center stage. A lot of the romantic development here happens while other things are also happening. For example, the transition to becoming friends that occurs during the mystery arc (along with all the various suggestions about marriage), and the subtle admission of Asuna's feelings at the end of Lisbeth's episode, and they way it develops up to the confession, and then perhaps even more significantly what happens after. Really, like I said, the only main difference is that there are other things going on at the same time, so you have to be able to follow everything that's going on at once. Something like Amagami SS is really only about developing the romance, so you don't have to sort through the plot elements as much.

I never read the source material coming into the anime either, and am only judging it as a standalone anime. Even on those grounds alone, I think the romance is well conveyed in the context of the situation that surrounds them. (They're warriors in a death game, so I don't expect them to have a lot of time to go out on regular dates. In this context, the fact that their relationship continued to deepen significantly even after the confession is one of the key points. It's a bit different from regular shounen romance anime where the confession is often seen as the end-game.)

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by kyp275

as far as the "will-powering", it's actually a specific concept/mechanic that gets expanded later on in the story, but for now it's going to feel like a regular DEM.

this thread. If there is such mechanic then I plead you to answer in that Q&A section.

[Salt]

Originally Posted by kyp275

That's more or less just how the story is written. The SAO novel started with a prologue to explain the premise, then jumped straight to floor 74. No amount of short stories is going to be able to fill that two year gap, hence why Kawahara is rewriting the entire Aincrad arc in the Progressive series.

That would really explain things. The script writers were more or less "flying blind" when it came to setting up KiritoxAsuna.

Maybe they should have planned the story out differently.

Amagami's story arcs only covers what, a week? the two doesn't really compare, the timescale, not to mention the genre, is too different.

Heh. I don't think you can plan and setup a school wide festival in just one week.

But that wasn't my point. I'm just pointing out that it's possible to set up a convincing romance with only 4 episodes. SOA has clocked in at >14 episodes and I'm still not quite "buying it".

For another example of "hard to swallow" romance, I refer you to Koi to Senkyou to Chocolate. I seriously can't accept who they chose as the "winning" heroine. ><

I understand the feeling, but the key here is whether it's internally consistent, not so much whether it's consistent with real life. After all, this is fiction, not a documentary. It's just something that you have to try to move past. I can spend all day pointing out flaws and inconsistencies war/actions films, but that's missing the point.

as far as the "will-powering", it's actually a specific concept/mechanic that gets expanded later on in the story, but for now it's going to feel like a regular DEM.

My view on sci-fi is, whatever you do, avoid contradicting known RL facts as much as you can. If you are going to "break the rules" (e.g. Faster than light travel), make sure you establish a "black box" to explain it away (in Star Trek FTL is due to the Warp Drive invent by Zefram Cochrane, "explained" away as something to do with passing plasma through warp coils, blah, blah, blah ... ; note it left intentionally vague as to exactly how it works, i.e. it's a "black box").

I consider SOA more or less sci-fi. It's set in the real world and takes place in an advanced MMO game. Advanced or not, it's still an MMO game, hence I expect the "rules" to be roughly analogous to those of RL MMOs - such as players not having access to proprietary information about how the MMO servers work, much less be able to manipulate them the way Kirito did.

Now if this was a "fantasy" game with rules more or less enforced by magic, then yes, more or less anything would go as long as internal consistency is maintained.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I've seen plenty of romance anime too (it's my favourite genre); I honestly think Asuna and Kirito actually do get more development than Tsukasa does in Amagami SS on the whole, but it doesn't always fill the center stage. A lot of the romantic development here happens while other things are also happening. For example, the transition to becoming friends that occurs during the mystery arc (along with all the various suggestions about marriage), and the subtle admission of Asuna's feelings at the end of Lisbeth's episode, and they way it develops up to the confession, and then perhaps even more significantly what happens after. Really, like I said, the only main difference is that there are other things going on at the same time, so you have to be able to follow everything that's going on at once. Something like Amagami SS is really only about developing the romance, so you don't have to sort through the plot elements as much.

It's not so much an issue of quantity, and more the an issue of ... quality.

The problem is, I'm "unconvinced". The marriage proposal came way too fast.

"Other on-goings" or not**, they could have at least spared like 4 episodes to do it right.

IMHO, if they could not do it right, they should have just skipped it and intro Kirito and Asuna as couple straight from the start - and maybe show the pieces of their relationship development through flashbacks. At least then there is zero risk of the audience "not buying it".

What I'm trying to say here is, they could have done better. ><

**Amagami SS did have the school festival, granted it was more to advance character development than being the main focus.

I never read the source material coming into the anime either, and am only judging it as a standalone anime. Even on those grounds alone, I think the romance is well conveyed in the context of the situation that surrounds them. (They're warriors in a death game, so I don't expect them to have a lot of time to go out on regular dates. In this context, the fact that their relationship continued to deepen significantly even after the confession is one of the key points. It's a bit different from regular shounen romance anime where the confession is often seen as the end-game.)

It's not a matter of "events" like dates, those are just one of many devices that can be used to move the plot forward.

If they manage to fall in love in the "death game", then the script writers should have been able to convey it convincingly.

[Znail]

Originally Posted by Salt

Spoiler for Save Space:

That would really explain things. The script writers were more or less "flying blind" when it came to setting up KiritoxAsuna.

Maybe they should have planned the story out differently.



Heh. I don't think you can plan and setup a school wide festival in just one week.

But that wasn't my point. I'm just pointing out that it's possible to set up a convincing romance with only 4 episodes. SOA has clocked in at >14 episodes and I'm still not quite "buying it".

For another example of "hard to swallow" romance, I refer you to Koi to Senkyou to Chocolate. I seriously can't accept who they chose as the "winning" heroine. ><



My view on sci-fi is, whatever you do, avoid contradicting known RL facts as much as you can. If you are going to "break the rules" (e.g. Faster than light travel), make sure you establish a "black box" to explain it away (in Star Trek FTL is due to the Warp Drive invent by Zefram Cochrane, "explained" away as something to do with passing plasma through warp coils, blah, blah, blah ... ; note it left intentionally vague as to exactly how it works, i.e. it's a "black box").

I consider SOA more or less sci-fi. It's set in the real world and takes place in an advanced MMO game. Advanced or not, it's still an MMO game, hence I expect the "rules" to be roughly analogous to those of RL MMOs - such as players not having access to proprietary information about how the MMO servers work, much less be able to manipulate them the way Kirito did.

Now if this was a "fantasy" game with rules more or less enforced by magic, then yes, more or less anything would go as long as internal consistency is maintained.



It's not so much an issue of quantity, and more the an issue of ... quality.

The problem is, I'm "unconvinced". The marriage proposal came way too fast.

"Other on-goings" or not**, they could have at least spared like 4 episodes to do it right.

IMHO, if they could not do it right, they should have just skipped it and intro Kirito and Asuna as couple straight from the start - and maybe show the pieces of their relationship development through flashbacks. At least then there is zero risk of the audience "not buying it".

What I'm trying to say here is, they could have done better. ><

**Amagami SS did have the school festival, granted it was more to advance character development than being the main focus.



It's not a matter of "events" like dates, those are just one of many devices that can be used to move the plot forward.

If they manage to fall in love in the "death game", then the script writers should have been able to convey it convincingly.

Your post boils down to SAO not following the cliche's you like. The problem with your idea of how everything mysterious should be explained is that this means you can't have a mystery in the story. Right now so is it is a mystery to the MC how those things happened, but you want them to be explained anyway to the audience, just because it bothers you otherwise?

The main difference between SAO and Amagami SS is that in Amagami so are everyones reactions exagerated to make sure that the audience can easily see what the characters are thinking. The problem with that is that it's not very realistic as most normal people doesn't act like that. The problem with SAO is that you need some normal social competence to catch on what is going on rather then reading standardised anime ques.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by Salt

Maybe they should have planned the story out differently.

While I agree with the sentiment to a degree, I have to say that the writers were somewhat handicapped by the source material, which itself had certain handicaps when it was initially written (page limit due to competition etc).

Originally Posted by Salt

But that wasn't my point. I'm just pointing out that it's possible to set up a convincing romance with only 4 episodes. SOA has clocked in at >14 episodes and I'm still not quite "buying it".

Of course, but as relentless mentioned above, Amagami is ALL about the romance, and frankly with the 4 eps. limit per arc, they don't have time to pull any punches.

SAO on the other hand, is not a romance story, you're essentially comparing a bunch of short romance stories to an lengthy action/adventure story, not really a fair comparison if you ask me.

Originally Posted by Salt

My view on sci-fi is, whatever you do, avoid contradicting known RL facts as much as you can. If you are going to "break the rules" (e.g. Faster than light travel), make sure you establish a "black box" to explain it away (in Star Trek FTL is due to the Warp Drive invent by Zefram Cochrane, "explained" away as something to do with passing plasma through warp coils, blah, blah, blah ... ; note it left intentionally vague as to exactly how it works, i.e. it's a "black box").

I consider SOA more or less sci-fi. It's set in the real world and takes place in an advanced MMO game. Advanced or not, it's still an MMO game, hence I expect the "rules" to be roughly analogous to those of RL MMOs - such as players not having access to proprietary information about how the MMO servers work, much less be able to manipulate them the way Kirito did.

SAO have its own set of rules, it's just hasn't really been shown yet at this point of the story - the story isn't even 1/5th the way through yet. Not to say there aren't plotholes - Kirito being able to download Yui being the most glaring one(though they try to cover that by setting Kazuto up as somewhat of a child prodigy with computers as seen in the latest episode), but it's really no worse than any of your typical story, whether they be anime or TV or movies.

It's ironic that you used Star Trek as an example, that show pulls so much DEM out of its reversed-tachyon field arse on a weekly basis it makes SAO looks like the pinnacle of plothole-free writing

Originally Posted by Salt

It's not so much an issue of quantity, and more the an issue of ... quality.

Like I mentioned above, if you're looking for dedicated romance plot in a shounen action story, you're really looking for the wrong thing in the wrong place.

Originally Posted by Salt

The problem is, I'm "unconvinced". The marriage proposal came way too fast.

Considering how long they've spent in the VR world, not really. Personally, I find it rather refreshing that it didn't go through the typical prerequisite "check boxes" that anime romance almost always do.

Originally Posted by Salt

"Other on-goings" or not**, they could have at least spared like 4 episodes to do it right.

Oh hell no, there are about 238947293748293073842 other things that should get the extra times offered by 4 more episodes than any anime original content.

Originally Posted by Salt

It's not a matter of "events" like dates, those are just one of many devices that can be used to move the plot forward.

If they manage to fall in love in the "death game", then the script writers should have been able to convey it convincingly.

I'm not sure if you're really placing a reasonable expectation here. Not every couple needs to go through a sappy drama-filled shoujo-esque plot before they can 'fall in love"

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by Znail

The main difference between SAO and Amagami SS is that in Amagami so are everyones reactions exagerated to make sure that the audience can easily see what the characters are thinking. The problem with that is that it's not very realistic as most normal people doesn't act like that. The problem with SAO is that you need some normal social competence to catch on what is going on rather then reading standardised anime ques.

Does SAO fans just have to mock everyone not liking SAO?

[Znail]

Originally Posted by kyp275

Kirito being able to download Yui being the most glaring one

The funny thing is that those who actualy have knowledge about such systems do not find this strange and it's the ones who are ignorant about the subject who thinks it's a plot hole.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by Znail

The funny thing is that those who actualy have knowledge about such systems do not find this strange and it's the ones who are ignorant about the subject who thinks it's a plot hole.

Eh, I wouldn't go that far.

First off, there is no real-world analogues to the Nervgear nor Admin access panels located in the middle of a dungeon in a MMO, those things simply doesn't exist IRL, so you can't say with any authority what can or can't be done with those unless you're the author himself.

Moreover, if you go by current standards, the idea that a regular GM would have the authority to sectioning off a portion of the game's programming and create a brand new item with it is laughable, hence why it would be considered to be a plothole by many.

[Quadratic]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

Does SAO fans just have to mock everyone not liking SAO?

It tends to be mainly from the novel readers who have been spoonfed every piece of information, and they think viewers shouldn't be given the same right (and yes, I've read some of the novel and it really is spoonfeeding).

Originally Posted by Znail

The funny thing is that those who actualy have knowledge about such systems do not find this strange and it's the ones who are ignorant about the subject who thinks it's a plot hole.

Let's just say it's not conventional by today's standards:
A sub-program with admin rights, file system access to her own files, the ability to convert/transfer her script/AI/files/whatever into another game object...


@Salt: Trust me when I say you're not alone in your thinking, so don't be tempted to rage in here if you feel insults are being flung. You can pick any random episode thread and watch it explode with the same/similar complaints (truthfully I advise not to read them, unless you like stepping into a mine field full of spoilers, though technically it may be safer now that the first whole arc has ended).
Heck you can search any of my posts and watch it explode into rants a couple of times (no regrets, but I don't suggest you read those either, lol).
But yes, though others might disagree, I believe knowing how the original story was written gives a better insight of why things felt a bit "out of place". Fixing timelines is a tricky business and requires a bit of effort/serious ret-conning to make it flow better.

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by Salt

I consider SOA more or less sci-fi. It's set in the real world and takes place in an advanced MMO game. Advanced or not, it's still an MMO game, hence I expect the "rules" to be roughly analogous to those of RL MMOs - such as players not having access to proprietary information about how the MMO servers work, much less be able to manipulate them the way Kirito did.

It shouldn't have been that hard for Kirito to download Yui to his Nerve Gear's Memory and turn her in to a game object if it was a generic interface. Here are two post explaining how he could have done it and a post with the authors explanation of how Kirito did it.

Originally Posted by Catsy

Yup.

Let's assume--no, let's not even assume, let's acknowledge the canonical fact that Kirito is something of a prodigy who has extensively studied not just programming in general, but the APIs and previous applications written for the NerveGear hardware and the books written by the person who designed SAO.

Now he's been given elevated privileges at a GM console with an interface that it's entirely possible he's either studied from Kayaba's books or actually used before.

So let's say Kirito types something like this:

> show -f system.entities|grep yui
1 line(s) matched: //sys/ents/admin/yui.entdata
> copy -r -s //sys/ents/admin/yui.entdata -t //self/local/yuibackup
1 folder(s) copied recursively to local storage.
> gm.spawnGameObjectAtPlayer -u -n "Yui's Heart" -t player.Kirito -a //res/items/appearance/bluecrystalheart.pak -i //self/local/yuibackup
Usable item [Yui's Heart] spawned successfully at player.Kirito - linked to //self/local/yuibackup

Takes all of five seconds. And then he gets forcibly logged out.

Problem solved.

Note: I pulled all of that out of the nether in about 5 minutes based on 20+ years working with command line systems. I would have so much respect for anime/movie producers if they'd just call up one of their hacker/geek friends and ask them to make up some convincing-looking actual commands for what they're trying to portray rather than this lazy Matrix stuff.

MPHC001 is Yui's file name.

Originally Posted by ronelm2000

Assuming you're in a command line interface...*ahem*

- help (shows all possible commands and most command line interfaces have this command)
- find MPHC001
- copy MPHC001 to <Kirito's NervGear>
- convert MPHC001 into item type necklace <<Yui's Heart>>

This is the author's explanation:

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Spoiler for Author's episode tweets:

The author even made a comment himself, regarding the anime, that even though Kirito looked all "hacker' in that scene, all he basically did was find a folder and copy it, so yeah. The item may have even spawned itself as a result (to represent the data he copied).

[Ray]

Originally Posted by Quadratic

It tends to be mainly from the novel readers who have been spoonfed every piece of information, and they think viewers shouldn't be given the same right (and yes, I've read some of the novel and it really is spoonfeeding).

And is that bad? 'Spoonfeeding' has negative connotations more often than not..

Fixing timelines is a tricky business and requires a bit of effort/serious ret-conning to make it flow better.

I agree. Kawahara is currently writing Sword Art Online: Progressive, which is a canonical re-write of the SAO arc to make it much more fluidic, as he originally wrote the SAO arc when he was much younger (and not as good a writer, I suppose), and was held back by the page limit. There's only so much that side stories written after the arc can do..

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Salt

But that wasn't my point. I'm just pointing out that it's possible to set up a convincing romance with only 4 episodes. SOA has clocked in at >14 episodes and I'm still not quite "buying it".

For another example of "hard to swallow" romance, I refer you to Koi to Senkyou to Chocolate. I seriously can't accept who they chose as the "winning" heroine. ><

[...]

If they manage to fall in love in the "death game", then the script writers should have been able to convey it convincingly.

Obviously you were not convinced. But I was convinced. We both watched the same show. I found the build-up and supporting evidence to be fully sufficient. You did not. And this is all just based on the anime, not on novels or any other material. So what are our options?

a) You missed the supporting evidence and details that supported the relationship growth
b) I read too much into things that were shown to see evidence beyond what was intended
c) We both just have different perspectives and neither of us are either right or wrong
d) All of the above
e) Other...?

I mean, I can list all the evidence that I noticed in each episode that supported the conclusion and make the romance feel natural and convincing to me. I could even say "try watching the episodes again and this time pay attention only to the romantic development" to see if you notice the things I did. (In fairness, I watched each episode at least 2 or 3 times to make sure that I didn't miss any detail, given that I didn't come into this show with any novel knowledge.) But if it still wasn't convincing enough for you, what can I say?

Spoiler for Comparison to Koi to Senkyo to Chocolate anime:

I think the things that make the romance in KoiChoco (anime) unconvincing to me were largely because they were also tracking the progressing relationship with someone else for many episodes, and then set that aside/put it on hold. The theme was that he couldn't commit to any other relationship because he had been lying to himself about his dormant feelings for the lead heroine (using her trauma as an excuse to perpetuate the status quo). So the fact that the relationship didn't develop in a normal way was a key point, but this wasn't terribly exciting to watch. The romantic relationship came down to "I've been in love with her all along," and once she got over her trauma, all they had to do was accept it and move forward. It probably also didn't help that the nature of her trauma was overplayed to the point that the resolution may have seemed a bit trite.

Spoiler for Comparison to Akane-iro ni Somaru Saka (anime):

Incidentally, this is a similar problem to the one I had with Akane-iro ni Somaru Saka, where the anime was building up one relationship in the foreground, but used a "you're lying to yourself" premise to then appeared to switch to a different heroine at the end. (It didn't really switch -- obviously it was heading of that ending from the get-go.) It's not totally indefensible, but it isn't terribly satisfying to watch, for me. I like to see the groundwork being set more clearly.

In this show, though, no other significant romantic relationships were being built-up, and we see the progress of the relationship across each of its phases, with groundwork being set along the way. Each of the conflicts presented contributed to the relationship in some way. And in the context of the crisis that forced the relationship into its major turn, I found the denouement to make sense. Unlike a lot of shounen romance where the confession is the end-game, the relationship here actually saw some of its most significant growth after the marriage, where you really came to understand the importance the two played in each others lives, and the ways they complemented each other. So, on the whole, I found the relationship here much more convincing than KoiChoco, or even most (maybe not all) of the arcs in Amagami SS, and this in spite of the fact that the show also had a lot of other things going on. (Of course, like all things, that isn't to say that it couldn't be further improved, but I didn't find it woefully lacking.)

In the end, the anime wasn't able to convince you, and you consider that a fault in the anime. But the anime was able to convince me, so I can't agree that whatever fault you had with it was so insurmountable. So I think we're basically at an impasse, and all I can say is "sorry you didn't enjoy it".

Originally Posted by Quadratic

You can pick any random episode thread and watch it explode with the same/similar complaints (truthfully I advise not to read them, unless you like stepping into a mine field full of spoilers, though technically it may be safer now that the first whole arc has ended).

Really...? Do you know how obsessive-compulsive I and the rest of the staff have been about removing even the slightest hint of future novel information from those episode threads? Your characterization of any of the episode threads as a "mine field full of spoilers" seems completely spurious to me. If you can find even one inappropriate spoiler that survived the bloodshed of deleted posts, infractions, and bans, I'd be more than a little surprised, and it certainly would not be for lack of trying.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Really...? Do you know how obsessive-compulsive I and the rest of the staff have been about removing even the slightest hint of future novel information from those episode threads? Your characterization of any of the episode threads as a "mine field full of spoilers" seems completely spurious to me. If you can find even one inappropriate spoiler that survived the bloodshed of deleted posts, infractions, and bans, I'd be more than a little surprised, and it certainly would not be for lack of trying.

I gotta say, I lol'd at this

*looks at the countless bodies of deleted posts that litters all over the field that is the SAO forum*

[Vsin]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Really...? Do you know how obsessive-compulsive I and the rest of the staff have been about removing even the slightest hint of future novel information from those episode threads? Your characterization of any of the episode threads as a "mine field full of spoilers" seems completely spurious to me. If you can find even one inappropriate spoiler that survived the bloodshed of deleted posts, infractions, and bans, I'd be more than a little surprised, and it certainly would not be for lack of trying.

*raises hand*

I've somehow managed to lose count of the number of times this guy has smacked me over the head, and I only hopped onto the bandwagon less than a month ago.

[Quadratic]

Originally Posted by Aphrah

And is that bad? 'Spoonfeeding' has negative connotations more often than not..

Using "spoonfeeding" was bad form on my part. Was too tired to rephrase in a neutral way (the original way I wanted to write it was more offensive than that and the end result was what I posted), but what I was trying to get at, was that readers insulting viewers implying "haha, I guess it's too subtle for you, stupid" is extremely ironic, so this type of insults shouldn't be flung around (at least by a reader, of all people).
Not going to add more on that note, because I'm becoming a broken record and off-topic.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Really...? Do you know how obsessive-compulsive I and the rest of the staff have been about removing even the slightest hint of future novel information from those episode threads? Your characterization of any of the episode threads as a "mine field full of spoilers" seems completely spurious to me. If you can find even one inappropriate spoiler that survived the bloodshed of deleted posts, infractions, and bans, I'd be more than a little surprised, and it certainly would not be for lack of trying.

Sorry, it wasn't an insult to any mods, I do appreciate work you guys do regarding the amount of spoilers removed (and personal attacks, lol).
Unfortunately, I've kinda picked up who's a reader and who's not, and can read between the lines and sometimes tell when there's, what I call, a "hand of god" discussion going on (readers "pretending" to come up with some idea and force some revelation upon the viewer ) or their opinions are vocal enough where you have a fair idea of what is/isn't going to happen (bulk inference), which I guess isn't truly spoilers but sometimes you get an idea of what they unintentionally leak out.
The reality is that I don't expected you guys to remove all of these kind of posts because then there wouldn't be much left in the thread. (and I seriously don't suggest you try harder than what you're currently doing, because you'll probably end up making too many false positives).


On a more on-topic note, there's no love polygons, but what's it called when everyone loves Kirito? Love sink?
Not limited by gender (Klein, Agil), race (Agil), machine (Yui, Cardinal(?)), insanity (Kabaya), family (imouto)...what's, or who's, next?


As for Asuna-Kirito, I believe their development had more to do with breaking each other's facade, and their common ground was they discovered both were truthfully scared, hence them wanting to support each other. In some ways, the whole "everyone's acting tough, and so will I" wasn't conveyed so well (well, some people may have picked that up properly, though too subtle for it to register convincingly in my mind).
Beyond that, he's a guy, she's a girl, some standard compliments...

[ronelm2000]

Originally Posted by Quadratic

On a more on-topic note, there's no love polygons, but what's it called when everyone loves Kirito? Love sink?
Not limited by gender (Klein, Agil), race (Agil), machine (Yui, Cardinal(?)), insanity (Kabaya), family (imouto)...what's, or who's, next?

It's called Kakaka Kata-omoi (kyo-pun is punny) ... or One Sided Love. Oh and, Klein, Agil, and Kayaba uses a "different" kind of love. Klein "life-saving" "friendship". Agil ... probably the same if you ask me. Kayaba -- love for the plot. Sugu -- incest . Yui, mix of curiosity and deep gratefulness for "freeing" her. Cardinal...wait..what?