Mobile Suit Gundam AGE - Episode 43 Discussion/Poll

[monster]

I know some people are annoyed at Kio's action (or lack thereof) in this episode, but I'm more interested in the fact that none of Kio's teammates, not even Flit or Asem, has confronted him about the danger in what he's doing. I think Kio needs a Woolf of his own.

On another subject, I was surprised and pleased that Zeheart got the last scene with Reina instead of Kio. That's something different, I believe.

Pretty enjoyable episode, I must say.

[houkoholic]

One thing I haven't seen those Flit-haters and Vagan-white-washers raised for this episode:

Fram gets no mention for killing that scum of a Federation base commander in cold blood (yes even though that commander probably deserved it Fram's cockpit smash kill IS in cold blood as the cease fire was called, the commander surrendered, was wounded and pleaded to be saved and was on a mere space shuttle) just because he killed a couple of Vagan soldiers, and before the smash we even get a long upshot of Fram giving him the "you f**king inhuman trash how dare you plea" look. Oh and Zeheart just calls Fram to go without even raising his voice like nothing happened. But of course Fram has done no wrong because the Fed commander was a scum and deserved it, right? /sarcasm Using the same reasoning Flit should get to shoot Zeheart's sorry ass on the spot and still get let off, since Zeheart led that first invasion on civilians and has actually committed crime against humanity which us viewers have seen with our own eyes, so Zeheart should get judge on the spot too!

Thanks Fram and Zeheart, your actions just proved my view of you was right a couple of episodes back when I called you guys out that you view the enemy as inhuman just like Flit does, and this cold blooded kill officially makes Fram worse than Flit too (Flit's still on ZERO cold blood kills!).

[Kaioshin Sama]

First time posting episode musings in a Gundam AGE episode thread in a while. Wow this is like the only place on the entire internet besides MAHQ that seems to be discussing all the nuances and plot threads that went on during this arc instead of just muttering about how the "Girard Spriggan Arc" is pointless. Firstly I'd think it's more appropriate to call it something like the moon base recapture arc since that is the overarching battle taking place and I definitely appreciated the multi-staged attack aspect of the whole arc that was spearheaded by Abis and his men. Secondly how can it be pointless if the Earth Federation and Bisidian achieved it's goal and moved one step closer towards closing out the war with impending arrival of the Second Moon? Not really sure how that works but ultimately it's beside the point.

Several characters that had been absent for a while finally got to shine again like Asemu and Zeheart who finally met up again, but had things go about as well as they did between Kio and Girard. Fram got to shine at last and she did okay for someone that really hasn't seen a whole lot of battle up to now, but I can't say I'm surprised to see her suit all battered up by the end of this. Still her vision of Zeheart's impending death has yet to be addressed that I can recall so either she managed to prevent it by beng there and that's that or it's a vision from somewhere further down the line.

Flit was in full on get 'er done mode and pretty much directed the course of the battle more than anyone else in the long run. The lack of any real comment or recognition when encountering the Fawnfarsia was a really unfortunate missed opportunity on the part of the show I think. I'm starting to think that he'll never make mention of Yurin and the impact she had in defining his life again and to me that just seems like a huge waste. This shows regular failing to address the defining moments that happened in past arcs that you really think would come up again and play a part at certain key points may end up surpassing the inconsistent art quality of the show as my biggest misgiving if it keeps up right to the end because the show practically begs for it for dramatic purposes.

Anyway Kio tried and failed yet again to reason with somebody he sympathized with before they rushed towards their demise, but yet again failed and I have to say his part in this arc while it started off pretty well with the AGE FX's debut and playing a big part in getting the Abis team on the surface ultimately ended up being the least interesting and most predictable couse of events. I think that it has to do with this being like the third time something similar has happened. I would hope his experiences during this fight would convince him that he needs to rethink his approach. At the very least I don't think he and Flit are going to be able to work together after this and I can see Kio leaving the ship and going solo from here on out. Just hope if that's the case he has an actual plan like his father who frankly did a much better job with Zeheart even if it netted similar results by actually giving him a reason why they needed to stop fighting and have a good long talk instead of merely suggesting it.

In the end despite some of these misgivings this has probably been my favorite arc since the huge fleet battle around Big Ring during the second generation. Just the sheer number of things going on simultaneously and pretty much all the principal characters being present in one place and doing their thing in a huge battle is one of those things I watch Gundam for.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

I can see Kio leaving the ship and going solo from here on out.

That is highly unlikely unless Kio is willing to give up the Age-FX, because Flit is surely not going to let Kio leave with it.

The other thing is, even if Kio does leave the Diva, he would still need to join a group because Kio's definitely not going to end the war by himself, especially not the way he wants to end it. So a solo action is also highly unlikely unless a future development makes it possible for Kio to do so.

The exception would be if, by solo, you just meant separate from either Flit or Asem. But Kio would still have to find support some other way. Hmm, perhaps from some Vagans? Nah, with his luck, Kio would probably have a hard time persuading anybody to join his cause.

[Dark Impulse]

I hope Kio soon realizes how HARD it is to make people understand each other....

Flit was awesome with the upgraded AGE-1 ... I expected him to remember Yurin in her Farsia in this episode..

Asemu well.. I felt sad for him because he almost didn't know what happened because he wasn't a X-Rounder... and he was like: "Zeheart....." all the time..

Fram x Zeheart.... I wonder if Fram will become another Yurin o.O

[Revolutionist]

Originally Posted by houkoholic

One thing I haven't seen those Flit-haters and Vagan-white-washers raised for this episode:

Fram gets no mention for killing that scum of a Federation base commander in cold blood (yes even though that commander probably deserved it Fram's cockpit smash kill IS in cold blood as the cease fire was called, the commander surrendered, was wounded and pleaded to be saved and was on a mere space shuttle) just because he killed a couple of Vagan soldiers, and before the smash we even get a long upshot of Fram giving him the "you f**king inhuman trash how dare you plea" look. Oh and Zeheart just calls Fram to go without even raising his voice like nothing happened. But of course Fram has done no wrong because the Fed commander was a scum and deserved it, right? /sarcasm Using the same reasoning Flit should get to shoot Zeheart's sorry ass on the spot and still get let off, since Zeheart led that first invasion on civilians and has actually committed crime against humanity which us viewers have seen with our own eyes, so Zeheart should get judge on the spot too!

Thanks Fram and Zeheart, your actions just proved my view of you was right a couple of episodes back when I called you guys out that you view the enemy as inhuman just like Flit does, and this cold blooded kill officially makes Fram worse than Flit too (Flit's still on ZERO cold blood kills!).

LOL leave it to the guy who justifies genocide to rationalize stuff like this.

That Simmons guy had murdered two guards in cold blood. Fram specifically said she got a report saying a guard was murdered in an area where the Federation never got to. Hmmm, guard guarding the escape shuttle gets murdered, later Simmons appears in said shuttle wounded AND to top it all off there's a dead Vagan guard floating behind him...She puts 2 and 2 together and disposes of that piece of garbage like he deserved. Nothing wrong with that.

Zeheart is as much a war criminal as any allied commander in WWII. We nuked Japan twice and deliberately targeted civilians and nobody was tried for crimes against humanity. He simply ordered his ship to attack, not his fault the Feds didn't evacuate/get to shelters in time lol.

[Roloko vi Britannia]

Girard kinda reminded me of Rena from Higurashi when she was laughing and going batshit crazy like she was. xD

So in the end it looks like she did die. It was either going to be her or Fram.

8/10

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

LOL leave it to the guy who justifies genocide to rationalize stuff like this.

That Simmons guy had murdered two guards in cold blood. Fram specifically said she got a report saying a guard was murdered in an area where the Federation never got to. Hmmm, guard guarding the escape shuttle gets murdered, later Simmons appears in said shuttle wounded AND to top it all off there's a dead Vagan guard floating behind him...She puts 2 and 2 together and disposes of that piece of garbage like he deserved. Nothing wrong with that.

Zeheart is as much a war criminal as any allied commander in WWII. We nuked Japan twice and deliberately targeted civilians and nobody was tried for crimes against humanity. He simply ordered his ship to attack, not his fault the Feds didn't evacuate/get to shelters in time lol.

Deliberate whitewashing. The Olivernotes military base was way over there but they specifically attacked the population center.

Attacking the civilian residences FIRST is Vegan M.O. since Colony Angel, Colony Nora, Colony Fardain an in the second generation arc Colony Trodia.

We know why these population centers are being targeted. Ezelcant is an insane Social Darwinist whose plan is to weed out the weak.

He admitted doing the same to Vegan colonies making it appear as accidents.

Guys like Zeheart follow Ezelcant religiously as he is their prophet that will lead them to their promise land...

You can't say the Allies targeted civilians as their first target. Often vital military installations and vital infrastructures are within civilian areas. Other collateral damage such as when bombs miss their target. Or to attack the enemy with psychological effect to put them in the defensive that they would recall forces from the front.

For somebody who boast to be in military you gloss over these facts just to maintain your argument full of holes.

Which tells me you are either really dishonest staining those that came before you or you are lying to be military in the first place playing a wounded gazelle to gain sympathy.

[houkoholic]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

LOL leave it to the guy who justifies genocide to rationalize stuff like this.

Please, you are the only one here who justifies genocide when you said Zeheart's following Ezelcant's command on attacking civilian is ok. Again Flit's done no such thing even remotely close to what even Zeheart or Ezelcant's plans, which part of "Flit hasn't committed genocide" don't you get? And again how does one condemn someone for supposedly evil acts which he hasn't committed? And again why do you keep glossing over the fact that the Vagan military has ACTUALLY murdered innocent civilians? Or that Ezelcant's plans involves mass murder and he is actually carrying out his plans of murdering innocent people? Address these points please, not that I expect you would.

That Simmons guy had murdered two guards in cold blood. Fram specifically said she got a report saying a guard was murdered in an area where the Federation never got to. Hmmm, guard guarding the escape shuttle gets murdered, later Simmons appears in said shuttle wounded AND to top it all off there's a dead Vagan guard floating behind him...She puts 2 and 2 together and disposes of that piece of garbage like he deserved. Nothing wrong with that.

LOL, don't you get it? Fram had no authority to judge Simmons on the spot, the correct method is to arrest him and put him through a trial. The 2 and 2 shouldn't be added up on the spot. Also now that you've justified Fram for executing him in that fashion out of emotional hatre and her non-nonsensical reason of not allowing Simmons to soil Zeheart's ship simply because Simmons murdered two soldiers in cold blood you've again exposed yourself as the hypocrite and double standard person that you are - because Flit's anger with the Vagan's is preciously because the Vagan military murders innocent civilians in cold blood, with people like Zeheart and Ezeclant sanctioning these plans. Again if you let Fram off for executing Simmons on the spot without trial then by extension, for example, Flit has the same rights to shoot Zeheart even when he is in retreat because someone like Zeheart has more blood on his hands. But you liked it and even justified it in just this one situation simply because it felt good to you seeing a scum getting an ugly death, instead of getting a fair trail, and when the situation is flipped you instantly change your standards, so you've just shown that you don't care about real justice at all, and you of all people have no place to talk about what is moral or righteous or calling out hate speech and equating it to genocide.

Zeheart is as much a war criminal as any allied commander in WWII. We nuked Japan twice and deliberately targeted civilians and nobody was tried for crimes against humanity.

That's because the Allies won and history is written by the winners, in a hypothetical situation if the Allies dropped the nuke and still lost the Japanese Army would be executing top level brass of the Allies left and right, or heck even if the nuke wasn't dropped the Allies would be in trouble with the fire bombings of Tokyo alone, just like how many of the Japanese military figures got tried as mass murderers and war criminals for what the Japanese did in places like China and other parts of Asia. Even then we as human beings have enough decency to not forget what was done was bad, even though some would justify the dropping of the nuke as necessary. However the Vagan's has no need to murder innocent civilians as the Vagan's were years ahead in military power and strength during the majority of the time of the war except for the fact that Ezelcant is screwed in the head with his sick plan of carrying out Social Darwinism, which you seem to constantly forget in favour of pinning blame on Flit's cries. And lastly you trying to pin the blame on the Feds for not evacuating the civilians shows that you are the only one who is actually advocating genocide (the Vagans started their invasion before Ezelcant's broadcast is made, how the F do you evac civilians in such a situation?).

You are wrong on so many levels about what the cause and effect of the war in AGE or war in general it's not even funny, I don't know why you keep posting.

[Dark Wing]

Okay I know Kio has been very annoying since he started his whole understanding campaign but consider this he is still a kid caught up in events that he hardly understands himself and part of that is Flint's fault for trying so hard teach him to be a soldiers by just telling him to find a vagan and pull the trigger. Had this be any other kind of show Kio's pleases wouldn't fall on deaf ears.

[maplehurry]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

You can't say the Allies targeted civilians as their first target. Often vital military installations and vital infrastructures are within civilian areas. Other collateral damage such as when bombs miss their target.

You can use the the collateral dmg excuse with conventional air bombing, but NOT with those nuke lol (because those military structure can be destroyed WITHOUT nuke)

A valid excuse is that the nuke (at least the 1st one) helped end war faster (under unconditional surrender), but the collateral dmg excuse is invalid on nuke.

Originally Posted by houkoholic

Thanks Fram and Zeheart, your actions just proved my view of you was right a couple of episodes back when I called you guys out that you view the enemy as inhuman just like Flit does, and this cold blooded kill officially makes Fram worse than Flit too (Flit's still on ZERO cold blood kills!).

Well, just because Flit didn't personally execute the convicted during the Purge... it's still the same traitors getting death penalty thing (for fram).

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by maplehurry

You can use the the collateral dmg excuse with conventional air bombing, but NOT with those nuke lol (because those military structure can be destroyed WITHOUT nuke)

A valid excuse is that the nuke (at least the 1st one) helped end war faster, but the collateral dmg excuse is invalid on nuke.

Well it was not only denying the Imperial Japanese Army the land battle they craved, so that they can get a stronger negotiating position, and making their will to fight wane but to tell also the Russians surreptitiously not to invade Japan.

Using two created the bluff the US had more H-bombs when they only had two.

I don't like the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki personally but I do see the politics behind it.

Hiroshima was an industrial spot that had military installations (minor supply depot) and also the HQ of Japan's 5th division (the group who defends all of Southern Japan).

Nagasaki was a sea port and an another Industrial spot that helped support Japan's efforts in the war.

Also Nagasaki wasn't their primary target, they were going after Kokura but were unable to find that target due to clouds.

Well, just because Flit didn't personally execute the convicted during the Purge... it's still the same traitors getting death penalty thing (for fram).

Well Flit like to do things legal with undeniable proof. One of the reasons why he is mad for Asemu turning pirate, he went the extra-legal route of taking out Federation traitors.

Which mean those traitors still had a right to defend themselves in court.

[Revolutionist]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Deliberate whitewashing. The Olivernotes military base was way over there but they specifically attacked the population center.

Attacking the civilian residences FIRST is Vegan M.O. since Colony Angel, Colony Nora, Colony Fardain an in the second generation arc Colony Trodia.

We know why these population centers are being targeted. Ezelcant is an insane Social Darwinist whose plan is to weed out the weak.

He admitted doing the same to Vegan colonies making it appear as accidents.

Guys like Zeheart follow Ezelcant religiously as he is their prophet that will lead them to their promise land...

And I've said Zeheart is wrong in following Ezelcant, but I guess you never bothered to read that. You just keep ranting on and on about Ezelcant this Ezelcant that and putting up videos of random stuff to prove your poorly concocted points. Ezelcant's plan is bad, and Zeheart is a moron for blindly following him. Can we move on now?

You can't say the Allies targeted civilians as their first target. Often vital military installations and vital infrastructures are within civilian areas. Other collateral damage such as when bombs miss their target. Or to attack the enemy with psychological effect to put them in the defensive that they would recall forces from the front.

So it's ok for the Allies to do this, but not for Zeheart? According to you, military installations and vital infrastructure were within civilian areas, but that only applies to the Allies because you need to justify their indiscriminate bombings of civilians.It doesn't apply to the Vagans because it wouldn't fit your views of them.
The allies did target civilians because that was the MO back then. It wasn't until Vietnam when war become available on TV that public outcry forced the military to be more sensitive towards civilian casualties...

For somebody who boast to be in military you gloss over these facts just to maintain your argument full of holes.

Which tells me you are either really dishonest staining those that came before you or you are lying to be military in the first place playing a wounded gazelle to gain sympathy.

All I said is you shouldn't go around talking about war idealizing it and rationalizing things like you know what it's like when you really don't. If that is boasting ok, so be it.

I served my country with distinciton and received an honorable discharge. I did my job and that is honoring those who came before me. I don't don't need anybody's sympathy, all I need is for people to understand that war isn't right. It's always wrong, and its toll goes way beyond the physical. You may be able to rationalize certain things like shooting people in the back who are running away from you, but unless you are there, you don't know how it's going to affect you. There's a reason why the suicide rates among Iraq and Afghanistan vets are insanely high.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

So it's ok for the Allies to do this, but not for Zeheart? According to you, military installations and vital infrastructure were within civilian areas, but that only applies to the Allies because you need to justify their indiscriminate bombings of civilians.It doesn't apply to the Vagans because it wouldn't fit your views of them.
The allies did target civilians because that was the MO back then. It wasn't until Vietnam when war become available on TV that public outcry forced the military to be more sensitive towards civilian casualties...

Zeheart as per Vegan procedure specifically targeted civilian areas of Olivernotes and has not attacked the Olivernotes military base at all.

Attacking civilians was his primary objective.

Big difference from what either the Allies or Axis powers did during the war.

[Revolutionist]

Originally Posted by houkoholic

Please, you are the only one here who justifies genocide when you said Zeheart's following Ezelcant's command on attacking civilian is ok. Again Flit's done no such thing even remotely close to what even Zeheart or Ezelcant's plans, which part of "Flit hasn't committed genocide" don't you get? And again how does one condemn someone for supposedly evil acts which he hasn't committed? And again why do you keep glossing over the fact that the Vagan military has ACTUALLY murdered innocent civilians? Or that Ezelcant's plans involves mass murder and he is actually carrying out his plans of murdering innocent people? Address these points please, not that I expect you would.

he hasn't, but he wants to, and that's enough to condemn him. You are condemning Ezelcant, so why not condemn Flit's intentions? You aren't so you are supporting genocide. It's as simple as that.
I have said what Ezelcant has done, and wants to do is wrong. I've said that before we got into this stupid back and forth argument over the weeks. You however have failed to even admit that Flit is wrong in his way of thinking.

LOL, don't you get it? Fram had no authority to judge Simmons on the spot, the correct method is to arrest him and put him through a trial. The 2 and 2 shouldn't be added up on the spot. Also now that you've justified Fram for executing him in that fashion out of emotional hatre and her non-nonsensical reason of not allowing Simmons to soil Zeheart's ship simply because Simmons murdered two soldiers in cold blood you've again exposed yourself as the hypocrite and double standard person that you are - because Flit's anger with the Vagan's is preciously because the Vagan military murders innocent civilians in cold blood, with people like Zeheart and Ezeclant sanctioning these plans. Again if you let Fram off for executing Simmons on the spot without trial then by extension, for example, Flit has the same rights to shoot Zeheart even when he is in retreat because someone like Zeheart has more blood on his hands. But you liked it and even justified it in just this one situation simply because it felt good to you seeing a scum getting an ugly death, instead of getting a fair trail, and when the situation is flipped you instantly change your standards, so you've just shown that you don't care about real justice at all, and you of all people have no place to talk about what is moral or righteous or calling out hate speech and equating it to genocide.

You are incredibly naive if you think "the book" gets followed every time. What Fram did is technically wrong, but nobody's going to make a fuss about it.

Flit has every right to be angry about the killing of civilians. It still doens't justify him wanting to do the same thing to the Vagans because that's what they did. How would his intentions make him any better than them? It doesn't. You are basically saying an eye for an eye is perfectly fine, when in fact all it does is leave everyone blind. Ezelcant and Zeheart are villains, Flit is a main character and a Gundam pilot, he should be held to higher standards as such. Stop this nonesense "but the mean Vagans did it so it's ok for poor Flit to want to do the same!". It's not.

That's because the Allies won and history is written by the winners, in a hypothetical situation if the Allies dropped the nuke and still lost the Japanese Army would be executing top level brass of the Allies left and right, or heck even if the nuke wasn't dropped the Allies would be in trouble with the fire bombings of Tokyo alone, just like how many of the Japanese military figures got tried as mass murderers and war criminals for what the Japanese did in places like China and other parts of Asia. Even then we as human beings have enough decency to not forget what was done was bad, even though some would justify the dropping of the nuke as necessary. However the Vagan's has no need to murder innocent civilians as the Vagan's were years ahead in military power and strength during the majority of the time of the war except for the fact that Ezelcant is screwed in the head with his sick plan of carrying out Social Darwinism, which you seem to constantly forget in favour of pinning blame on Flit's cries.

I never forgot about this, in fact I've brought it up several times and questioned why no one stood up or quesitoned Ezelcant's motives. You just chose to ignore that like you ignore a lot of other things.

And lastly you trying to pin the blame on the Feds for not evacuating the civilians shows that you are the only one who is actually advocating genocide (the Vagans started their invasion before Ezelcant's broadcast is made, how the F do you evac civilians in such a situation?).

You are wrong on so many levels about what the cause and effect of the war in AGE or war in general it's not even funny, I don't know why you keep posting.

Zeheart indescriminately attacked civilians, yes, but it's not genocide because they are not systematically trying to exterminate people. In fact that's not even what Ezelcant is after, he said so himself. He's giving people a chance to save themselves, which is still wrong, again, read this part so you stop emphasizing on the rest of what I wrote: it is wrong. Even if we were to consider what they're doing genocide, it still wouldn't justify Flit wanting to do the same thing....

[Revolutionist]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Zeheart as per Vegan procedure specifically targeted civilian areas of Olivernotes and has not attacked the Olivernotes military base at all.

Attacking civilians was his primary objective.

Big difference from what either the Allies or Axis powers did during the war.

Not really, the only difference is Zeheart used a Fa Zeos instead of a B-29 or a Ju-88. The approach was the same, indiscriminately target civilian.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

he hasn't, but he wants to, and that's enough to condemn him. You are condemning Ezelcant, so why not condemn Flit's intentions? You aren't so you are supporting genocide. It's as simple as that.

You hardly have a case there.

Flit has every right to be angry and to say the Vagans should be destroyed. The Vagans have done nothing throughout the show to garner any sympathy for them. A couple of other things to point out.

1. Vagans destroyed colonies that had zero strategic purposes or military bases

2. The Federation offered them a peace treaty but were rejected outright.

3. Vagans gun down civilians left and right.

So tell me, to the average person what argument do you have that can be used to say otherwise?

To the average person it's to show that the Vagans cannot be reasoned with except to beat them into the ground until they surrender which is how most wars go anyways. Do you think the Americans weren't thinking about destroying the Japanese during WWII for Pearl Harbour?

Even after all that stuff we see that the Federation is hardly at the same level with Flit in regards to the Vagans. The high officers despise him and take him as a renegade who should mind his own business. At the same time Flit aside from the AGE system never pushed or incited anything with the Federation to destroy all Vagans. He could've when he purged the Federation party but never bothered to but instead focused on his family which he always has.

With this Lunar Base battle the officers were clearly disturbed by the idea of nuking the base but in the end as Algurus said, "trust Flit, he knows what he's doing."

In the end, the base was captured relatively intact with the Vagan officers captured. That right there is a signifcant victory with no further casualties. Flit didn't even chastise the Federation for letting so many Vagans go. How does that make him genocidal?

We don't go screaming on the Vagans because they are the antagonists. Flit has his issues but at the same time we still see a human side to him and as of yet he hasn't done anything to garner such attention. We're only on your case because you dig up straws to try to make Flit out worse than the Vagans when clearly he isn't.

I never forgot about this, in fact I've brought it up several times and questioned why no one stood up or quesitoned Ezelcant's motives. You just chose to ignore that like you ignore a lot of other things.

You choose to ignore a lot of things. We present the facts because this show isn't that hard to follow and this is what Flit is and even you admitted this. (the straightfowardness part)

An old veteran who holds a grudge due to the atrocities committed by the Vagans and at this point only sees defeating them as an option. This is made worse when it turns out it's to cast the weak aside and Flit has always been about protecting everybody. For a sixty year old veteran that is understandable in his place. The fact he hasn't gone off the board is because of his family (kio being the key here as we see in this episode)

When he wanted to stop Zeheart and Fram from leaving the field, Kio told him to stop fighting and he obliged. No genocidal maniac according to your definitions would do that so easily.

Zeheart indescriminately attacked civilians, yes, but it's not genocide because they are not systematically trying to exterminate people. In fact that's not even what Ezelcant is after, he said so himself. He's giving people a chance to save themselves, which is still wrong, again, read this part so you stop emphasizing on the rest of what I wrote: it is wrong. Even if we were to consider what they're doing genocide, it still wouldn't justify Flit wanting to do the same thing....

Yet when Flit so much as breathes you jump on him screaming that he's like Hitler and try to drown out the Vagans' actions.

The fact that you stay mum on the Vagans but the second Flit moves or breathes you try to villanify him and make him out worse than the Vagans shows that your both biased and a hypocrite.

[kk2extreme]

If I were Kio, I would use my awsome skill sets to disable my enemies first and annoy the heck out of them later

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

You hardly have a case there.

Neither do you...

1. Vagans destroyed colonies that had zero strategic purposes or military bases

Prove that they had no strategic or military purpose.

2. The Federation offered them a peace treaty but were rejected outright.

We have no idea what the terms of the treaty was. Before you start jumping to the Federation's defense here, ask yourself what a peace treaty offered by them would look like. Chances are, it won't exactly be fair to either side. I can tell you right now that without a third party mediator, it's far less likely that any kind of treaty can be crafted that either party can agree on. Especially now that things between the Federation and Vagan have devolved to where they have.

3. Vagans gun down civilians left and right.

Yet Flit wants to do the same in return. Funny how that works.

To the average person it's to show that the Vagans cannot be reasoned with except to beat them into the ground until they surrender which is how most wars go anyways. Do you think the Americans weren't thinking about destroying the Japanese during WWII for Pearl Harbour?

Oh, don't you dare. Pearl Harbor was a strategic strike against a viable military target. The only thing that got botched was that the declaration of war didn't get delivered until after the attack. Even barring that, the US took the nuke option over invading Japan itself specifically because of the sheer amount of casualties would have made it a complete pyrrhic victory. Next time you try to make a case, try to do it without a blatantly obvious appeal to history that is quite simply inapplicable to everything about this discussion.

Even beyond that, prove that they were. Find me one legitimate account of "destroy the Japanese" during WW2. Yeah, that's what I thought. Chances are, even if you can, not one of those accounts includes any variation of the word Flit's been throwing around: "exterminate." On the most strict of terms, the US did "destroy the Japanese;" they completely tore down the Japanese Empire and rebuilt into something a bit less aggressively nationalistic. If you want to argue numbers, dropping two nukes was far more humane than invading and enacting their own Stalingrad, which BTW had a projected casualty count of more than 10 million from the Japanese alone.

Even after all that stuff we see that the Federation is hardly at the same level with Flit in regards to the Vagans. The high officers despise him and take him as a renegade who should mind his own business.

So they gave him a ship and a WMD. Flawless logic.

In the end, the base was captured relatively intact with the Vagan officers captured. That right there is a signifcant victory with no further casualties. Flit didn't even chastise the Federation for letting so many Vagans go. How does that make him genocidal?

Because he spent the past three episodes screaming at Captain Moe to prepare the WMD he had to use it? Because he flat-out rejected Asemu for not doing enough to destroy whom he deemed to be worthy of complete destruction? Perhaps you don't remember, but go watch Episode 28 again; he told everyone exactly what he wanted to do, and he's been admirably consistent in saying what he wants since then.

But hey, you're right. His actions don't match up with saying he wants to commit genocide. That just makes him a hypocrite who can't follow through when it's down to the wire.

We're only on your case because you dig up straws to try to make Flit out worse than the Vagans when clearly he isn't.

No, you're on his case because you aren't comfortable with someone who doesn't worship Flit and everything he says and does. And no, he's not worse than the Vagan; he's just as bad.

Yet when Flit so much as breathes you jump on him screaming that he's like Hitler and try to drown out the Vagans' actions.

The fact that you stay mum on the Vagans but the second Flit moves or breathes you try to villanify him and make him out worse than the Vagans shows that your both biased and a hypocrite.

I have a better question: Why the hell are you focusing all your time and energy defending Flit instead of, oh I don't know, making a case against Ezelcant instead? I have two possible answers: Either you can't, or you can't without making him sound uncomfortably close to what Revolutionist has been saying about Flit (which happen to be right).

Dear lord people, start being consistent and more concise; I don't enjoy taking thirty minutes out of my day just to respond to one post. If a single post takes up an entire browser window, it's way too long.

God, I need a drink.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

Neither do you...

Until Flit actually kills someone cold-blooded it's kinda silly to call him genocidal.

Prove that they had no strategic or military purpose.

Uh episode 15.

Grodeck to Yark

"You led MS into Colony Angel....even though it was just a peaceful colony without a federation base"

Don't believe me? Go check out the episode.

We have no idea what the terms of the treaty was. Before you start jumping to the Federation's defense here, ask yourself what a peace treaty offered by them would look like. Chances are, it won't exactly be fair to either side. I can tell you right now that without a third party mediator, it's far less likely that any kind of treaty can be crafted that either party can agree on. Especially now that things between the Federation and Vagan have devolved to where they have.

Again this show is pretty straightfoward so there's no complexity involved.

It was clearly stated that the Federation tried to negotiate with the Vagans and it was outright rejected.

This is why it didn't make any sense that the negotiations failed when it was revealed the Prime Minister was in bed with Ezcelant. It would've been an easy thing to negotiate something favourable to the Vagans, leak troop deployments for a decisve defeat and then the Vagans would move in.

It was only when Ezcelant told Kio the reason behind Eden and his rejection of Earth's peace treaty did we understood why. It was because peace with the Federation isn't part of the plan so it doesn't matter what terms would've been discussed because it would've failed regardless.

Yet Flit wants to do the same in return. Funny how that works.

Spare me.

Oh, don't you dare. Pearl Harbor was a strategic strike against a viable military target. The only thing that got botched was that the declaration of war didn't get delivered until after the attack. Even barring that, the US took the nuke option over invading Japan itself specifically because of the sheer amount of casualties would have made it a complete pyrrhic victory. Next time you try to make a case, try to do it without a blatantly obvious appeal to history that is quite simply inapplicable to everything about this discussion.

Uh note how I said, "in regards to Pearl Harbour" and I thought it was common knowledge that the Americans were pissed at the fact that it was an attack before declaration. Not to mention a betrayal. Perhaps I should've been more clear about that part.

Even beyond that, prove that they were. Find me one legitimate account of "destroy the Japanese" during WW2. Yeah, that's what I thought. Chances are, even if you can, not one of those accounts includes any variation of the word Flit's been throwing around: "exterminate."

Look up war crimes yourself.

U.S. historian James J. Weingartner attributes the very low number of Japanese in U.S. POW compounds to two important factors, a Japanese reluctance to surrender and a widespread American "conviction that the Japanese were "animals" or "subhuman'" and unworthy of the normal treatment accorded to POWs.[64] The latter reason is supported by Ferguson, who says that "Allied troops often saw the Japanese in the same way that Germans regarded Russians—as Untermenschen."[61]

On the most strict of terms, the US did "destroy the Japanese;" they completely tore down the Japanese Empire and rebuilt into something a bit less aggressively nationalistic. If you want to argue numbers, dropping two nukes was far more humane than invading and enacting their own Stalingrad, which BTW had a projected casualty count of more than 10 million from the Japanese alone.

My point being was that the US's ultimatium was either surrender unconditionally or we'll blow the crap out of you. The rest I won't talk about as it's irrelevant.

The fact that the Vagans' are willing to fight to the death means that they'll have to beaten down to the ground till they say uncle or if Kio finds some other way and I'm having a hard time thinking about it. Main reason is because Ezcelant is going to die and the people will simply carry on. In any case, by your account you are saying that lives will be saved if Flit goes ahead and blows the Vagans to kingdom come (which I find unlikely)

So they gave him a ship and a WMD. Flawless logic.

They gave him an antique ship with the worst crew there ever was in the Federation. Yeah flawless logic right there. It's only because of plot and such that the DIVA is still running as the officer clearly set it up to fail big time.

And I don't recall them giving him access to WMD either. He simply suggested them to use it but specified that it's their's and only their own decision of whether or not to use it.

And guess what? The Federation officers actually have brains and ethics and Flit trusts them enough to make the right decisions.

Because he spent the past three episodes screaming at Captain Moe to prepare the WMD he had to use it? Because he flat-out rejected Asemu for not doing enough to destroy whom he deemed to be worthy of complete destruction? Perhaps you don't remember, but go watch Episode 28 again; he told everyone exactly what he wanted to do, and he's been admirably consistent in saying what he wants since then.

The thing is Algurus is the only one whose worked with Flit close enough to trust and know the way he thinks. Everybody else is a hatchling who only knows him as an old war veteran. In the end, following Flit's plan was the best one they had. Kio's idea of finishing the fight was disasterous.

If an old retired veteran tried telling you do something seemingly extreme then it's understandable to baffle at the guy. It happens all the time in shows and movies.

And since your referencing episodes. Do you want me to reference the episodes where people stand up to Flit or bring him down a notch or two or where Flit just lets them be?

First time he met the Captain he was mean to her but afterwards privately he reassured her that she'll be a great captain.

And Asemu for the record has crap to show with his methods. All that pirating and he couldn't help the Federation repel the loss of the Big Ring and such.

But hey, you're right. His actions don't match up with saying he wants to commit genocide. That just makes him a hypocrite who can't follow through when it's down to the wire.

So then we agree that he's not going for all out extermination then. Like I said, he's an old war vet with a grudge to carry.

No, you're on his case because you aren't comfortable with someone who doesn't worship Flit and everything he says and does. And no, he's not worse than the Vagan; he's just as bad.

Oh I'm sorry.

I wasn't aware that posting actual and correct references was the same thing as worshipping a character.

His posts are so full of BS and inaccuracies and as he admitted made up crap that for me to post the actual facts and episodes makes me a worshipper? Anyone who watches the episode can do the same thing. Me? It just baffles me when someone posts crap like that.

I have a better question: Why the hell are you focusing all your time and energy defending Flit instead of, oh I don't know, making a case against Ezelcant instead? I have two possible answers: Either you can't, or you can't without making him sound uncomfortably close to what Revolutionist has been saying about Flit (which happen to be right).

Uh....I already did. Revolutionist and I both made talks about the guy. Don't believe me? Go look it up yourself. When details about Ezcelant started trickling in I was the one who posted comments on how weird the guy was and when the truth was revealed we all agreed that he was downright crazy. The issue I have is him blowing Flit's actions out of proportion to make him seem worse. That and I stated earlier that his death would bring an end to the war but at this point I'm not sure now as he's ensuring a successor to keep it going.

I don't need to make things up about Ezcelant. The guy's insane and needs to be stopped.

And guess what? He wasn't in this episode so what's there to talk about him? Nothing new with him at the moment. Even Revolutionist doesn't bring up Flit when he's not present in the episode.

Dear lord people, start being consistent and more concise; I don't enjoy taking thirty minutes out of my day just to respond to one post. If a single post takes up an entire browser window, it's way too long.

Oh boo hoo. I would've ignored it if it wasn't for the fact that your post was inaccurate.