[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 3 Banquet of the golden witch

[hchuang]

Interpersonal issues are all pretty typical of family relationships honestly....

I think there's a much simpler motive that is compelling the "culprit" into murder: Greed. Although this motive doesn't apply to Kinzo since the gold was "his" to begin with.

[Matrim]

I wasn't keeping track of the number of chapters already passed and I thought I had a few translated ones left when I got to the untranslated part. Not a pleasant surprise, I am telling you.

I really should be going to bed (btw, playing Umineko in a dark room at three or four o'clock in the morning is quite a creepy experience) but I will make some spoilerish comments nevertheless.

Spoiler for EP.3 First 11 chapters:

Well, I can't deny that Umineko managed to be so very unpredictable once again. No wonder the ep.3 thread is so huge.

It's very weird that in previous chapters Rosa never mentions even in her thoughts the fact that she had met "Beatrice" once upon a time. And I did have major trouble accepting that a whole mansion with a large fence can remain hidden for so long on such a small island. Wouldn't it have been so much more convenient for Kinzo to keep her in the room the gold was found in?

For ep.2 I had a pet theory that the dessert might have been poisoned - in ep.3 the siblings skip dessert and the first twilight left them all alive. Probably a coincidence but still...

Oh, yes, and Kinzo's a total scum. Not liking his family is fine but organizing a cold blooded sacrifice game is disgustingly pathetic, considering that he himself risks very little since he is going to die soon anyway. I really hope he did burn to death at least once.

[Keriaku]

Yeah I knew when I was typing it that 'abuse' wasn't exactly the right word to convey the situation, but it technically is.

[Shinigami_Mello]

Spoiler for On Rosa's memory:

We dont know for sure that she didnt mention that memory to her siblings in the first two games. We know that in both games they spoke late into the night, and we didnt get to see as much of it as we did in Ep.3. There's a chance she probably did remember them in each game. I remember reading a post about that not too long ago. Maybe on the Ep.3 thread?

Spoiler for Natsuhi:

I love Natsuhi. She was awesome in the first game. But so far, through the third one, all I could think was "Natsuhi, be quiet! Stop interupting". Ahaha, she can sure get worked up.

Spoiler for On Rosa and Maria too:

Rosa is probably my favorite adult in the game. I thought that we really saw her personality well in Ep.2. All sides of her. She's smart and knows when to act it and when to not. She does seem the most likely to having some sort of link to the killer, but who knows.

Yeah, abuse isnt quite the right word for her and Maria either. xD
I sympathise with Rosa actually since I can have quite the temper myself and it would be so frustrating to teach Maria. I do think she tries, but she's gotten to the point she dosnt know WHAT to do and so comes the hitting. I wonder why Maria dosnt seem to learn as well. Most children react to getting scolded the way Maria does in a 'I better not to do that again'. Yet Maria keeps pushing Rosa's buttons with her 'Uuu" and general talk of witches. You'd think she would learn, so that definately seems odd.

[Cola91]

Originally Posted by Rika_Chama

Spoiler for ep3 first half:

Didnt beatrice say that her soul was trapped in the body kinzo made? so she had been the Endless witch long before that. If youre anti-fantasy it's just what Beatrice claimed.

srry, just correcting you on something small. Probably wont matter if you're anti-fantasy and I dont think she said it in red either way

Mine is in fact an anti-fantasy theory

Spoiler for theory explaination:

To explain what I mean I'll write what Beatrice said about her life as a human with my "human anti-fantasy explaination" written in red.

She says that she was imprisoned in a cage of flesh by Kinzo.
(Actually refering to her birth as Kumasawa's daughter)

She says that She died trying to escape Kinzo.
(Actually refering to her meeting with Rosa when She lost her life)

She says that Kinzo created and Homunculus and imprison her soul in it.
(Actually refering to clonation which is a scientific thing unlike giving birth to an Homunculus)

She says that She needed 20 year to regain her power.
(Actually refering to the fact that it took the clone 20 years to grow and become like the actual Beatrice)

In order to support this theory I'll have to drop the claim that the Beatrice talking with Rosa is not the one talking with Kinzo.

Ok now revised my theory... I'm working on a slightly fantasy theory too

[Matrim]

Spoiler for Ep.3 first 11 chapters:

Things would have been easier if it wasn't mentioned that this was the first time someone had solved the riddle. Finding the gold would have been a good motive to get rid of inconvenient witnesses/relatives. Assuming Beatrice doesn't do it, the only one with any motive to kill in the succession shown in the epitaph is Kinzo.

Interestingly enough, Beato says there are not 19 or more people who exist on this Rokenjima (emphasis mine). Does that mean that in previous chapters there could have been more people on the isalnd? Also, it could mean that someone had already been murdered, so they technically didn't exist when she said that. I mean, the scene which follows is very fishy - in previous chapters Beato doesn't show herself to Kinzo despite his desperation, now she does it in the beginning, and of course if we going for any remotely realistic explanation of the events, Kanon's duel with Lucifer cannot really be accepted as truth.
I think Beatrice does exist but she can't influence living humans directly, at least until the ceremony is over. Before that I suspect she can put magic circles on doors and also maybe manipulate dead bodies as to confuse people about the cause of the death. The reason for my suspicion is that I just don't see what a human culprit has to gain by creating tihs "locked room mysteries", especially the last one. The previous ones could somehow be explained by the culprits trying to deflect blame onto the servants but in episode three that's not a valid excuse. Come to think of it, isn't it possible that Beato is forced to perpetuate the game until someone solves the riddle and not just because she is bored? You'd think that after being imprisoned for so long on the island, she would leave it as soon as the ceremony ends.
If I am to guess what happens next in episode 3, I will venture that the ceremony gets botched at some point, Eva dies and Beato goes back to being Beatrice. Maybe there will be even survivors in the end - as in Higurashi when the masterplan failed when a certain characters was killed not when they should have been.

Specualtion aside, I really liked the fact that Kyrie wasn't killed early on, she is my favourite among the "adult" characters. But I miss Jessica, she has been totally brushed aside in this episode.

We dont know for sure that she didnt mention that memory to her siblings in the first two games.

Yes, of course, but I tihkn it's weird how convinced she was that the servants were to blame, even though she had seen Beatrice and also a few ingots of gold. Come to think of it. if someone was masquarading as Beatrice and came to the siblings meetings with the gold, wouldn't Rosa have stopped the sham immediately? Of course, if she was the culprit this becomes easily explainable, although one wonders what happened to fake Beatrice.

[Von Himmel]

Clonation at that kind of year ? I mean, it's 20 years before the incident and that means the science and biology technology shoudln't have that much advanced yet.

One thing's been bugging me. . When did Beato ever said something about giving her title when someone managed to find the gold ? I thought she only said something about returning the interest and to become the head family.

[Klashikari]

She states it only in episode 3, in the second letter (the first one being the usual introduction and 'elegant intellectual night' wish).
This is the main reason why all the siblings are taking a drastic serious interest in the epitath.

Please note that this second letter is signed DIFFERENTLY, and it was like that originally.
first is "Beatrice the golden" and the second is "The golden witch, Beatrice".

[Von Himmel]

Going with Anti-mystery, that's the part where Beatrice sets up her trap for Battler ? lol

Well, it looks like that it had been discussed here before, right ? ^^; Maybe I'll just read the discussion at later pages.

[Christen]

Spoiler for First 11 Chapters, and my theories:

1. Beatrice of 1967 was Kinzo's daughter from his fiancee.
It's not a farfetched idea. In the end of EP2, Kinzo wished for his fiancee. If she is not his daughter, she might be someone from the orphanage that had amnesia or something similar.

2. The accident involved in the 6 murders is Kinzo dying due to his health.
Nanjo always told Kinzo his death will come at anytime. The main problem now is, how did he place himself in the boiler room?

3. Rosa knew about the gold before Eva did.
This one has no basis yet, but I believe Rosa went down the chamber to check if Eva solved the riddle.

So much for theories without much explanations XD.

[Kets]

Originally Posted by lovelysan

On Rosa and Maria:

Spoiler:

I find myself hesitating on calling Rosa's actions towards Maria to be ABUSE. I mean... I know it sort of is, and at times Rosa DEFINITELY crosses the line but....
I don't know, to me, it seems more like a frustrated as hell mother who suddenly realizes that she raised her kid to be an absolute brat.
Of course, granted, loosing your temper and acting on it on child is going to far....

ugh, I'm conflicted.

anyways, putting that asside. I remember in Episode 2 Krauss reflected on his constant indecision and backing out of his plans to be a result of his childhood.
So yeah, I'm gonna guess that Rudold didn't come out of his youth perfectly well either.
That said, I feel bad for the 4 siblings in that they were basically raised without any love and then sort of put into competitive situations with each other. It's just... ugh.

Of course, to compensate, the siblings than tend to smother their children in their own sort of way of love and then that makes their children unhappy with the parents.

Ugh, it's just.... as things come to like, the whole situations all around are just tragic.

Finally, this game has made me realise that I have "moe" feelings for Natsuhi ^^;. Her way of acting is just oddly endearing to me.

Spoiler:

I died as she slooooowly figured out the "sucker merry barrels" thing XD .

That said, sometimes.... I kinda feel like telling Natsuhi to "BE QUIET WHEN THE GROWNUPS ARE TALKING." She looses her temper and interrupts entirely too often. It's kinda making me understand why Krauss so easily sent her off in the first game ^^;.

Still..... I still find her oddly cute .....

Spoiler for Question:

What are "sucker merry barrels?

[momobunny]

Originally Posted by Kets

Spoiler for Question:

What are "sucker merry barrels?

Rudolf said to take out the 'e''s and the 'r''s I think... so it would turn into:

Spoiler:

sucker merry barrels

[ClockWorkAngel]

You beat me to it XD

[momobunny]

Yeah. =P
I also found that scene pretty to be a pretty cute Natsuhi moment. X3

[Kets]

When in the story does this happen?

[momobunny]

Originally Posted by Kets

When in the story does this happen?

Spoiler:

After they all gather in the guesthouse and discuss the riddle of the epitaph, after discovering victims of the first twilight.

[The Creator]

Originally Posted by Christen

Spoiler for First 11 Chapters, and my theories:

1. Beatrice of 1967 was Kinzo's daughter from his fiancee.
It's not a farfetched idea. In the end of EP2, Kinzo wished for his fiancee. If she is not his daughter, she might be someone from the orphanage that had amnesia or something similar.

2. The accident involved in the 6 murders is Kinzo dying due to his health.
Nanjo always told Kinzo his death will come at anytime. The main problem now is, how did he place himself in the boiler room?

3. Rosa knew about the gold before Eva did.
This one has no basis yet, but I believe Rosa went down the chamber to check if Eva solved the riddle.

So much for theories without much explanations XD.

I've some counter-points to the second and thirds points =P

Spoiler:

2)If you remember correctly, kinzo wasn't just in the boiler room, he was in the freaking boiler, burning. So i don't think that death is really accidental, it may be but it is kinda ankward that he "fell" into the boiler. Perhaps he was burning the gun, spear or whatever weapon he used to kill the other 5 sacrifices and something went wrong, but i think it's just too complicated =x

3) If Rosa had known about the gold before Eva, wouldn't we be seeing Rosa the new beatrice instead of Eva ? xD
But i do agree in some point with you and i will explain further in my whole theory thingy ;D

The whole what's happening thing

Spoiler:

I think that what's happening in rokkenjima is exactly as Virgilia said. Both magic and science are coexisting, meaning that kinzo was burned twice (in a matter of speaking) once when whe was playing with beatrice and another one when he burned in the boiler (it doesn't really matter if he died because of the burns of something else).

What i try to say is this, both magic and science can be used to explain the murders, it's not that beatrice did or did not killed them with magic; but she could killed them with her magic and someone else (the culprit) could have planned all of the complicated closed room murders just with science. The whole point of beatrice's game is to make battler discover the science one

About the culprit, i'm strongly suspecting doctor nanjo. He may be beatrice's father in the way that he was the one that made her in the test tube. Or he's just greedy :P

About the "six" closed room murders

Spoiler:

In reality this one is pretty simple, the person who had the accident and died, was the one that killed the other 5 and locked all the rooms with one of the masters keys

It's not 6 rooms, but one. The one where the culprit had the accident.

[Cola91]

Originally Posted by The Creator

I've some counter-points to the second and thirds points =P

Spoiler:

2)If you remember correctly, kinzo wasn't just in the boiler room, he was in the freaking boiler, burning. So i don't think that death is really accidental, it may be but it is kinda ankward that he "fell" into the boiler. Perhaps he was burning the gun, spear or whatever weapon he used to kill the other 5 sacrifices and something went wrong, but i think it's just too complicated =x

3) If Rosa had known about the gold before Eva, wouldn't we be seeing Rosa the new beatrice instead of Eva ? xD
But i do agree in some point with you and i will explain further in my whole theory thingy ;D

The whole what's happening thing

Spoiler:

I think that what's happening in rokkenjima is exactly as Virgilia said. Both magic and science are coexisting, meaning that kinzo was burned twice (in a matter of speaking) once when whe was playing with beatrice and another one when he burned in the boiler (it doesn't really matter if he died because of the burns of something else).

What i try to say is this, both magic and science can be used to explain the murders, it's not that beatrice did or did not killed them with magic; but she could killed them with her magic and someone else (the culprit) could have planned all of the complicated closed room murders just with science. The whole point of beatrice's game is to make battler discover the science one

About the culprit, i'm strongly suspecting doctor nanjo. He may be beatrice's father in the way that he was the one that made her in the test tube. Or he's just greedy :P

About the "six" closed room murders

Spoiler:

In reality this one is pretty simple, the person who had the accident and died, was the one that killed the other 5 and locked all the rooms with one of the masters keys

It's not 6 rooms, but one. The one where the culprit had the accident.

Spoiler for kinzo and the boiler:

I actually thought of something stupid even for this XD

What if the boiler is the door to the room with the gold?
Kinzo could easily hide there and wait to kill those who solve the riddle.
If this is true maybe he was in the boiler even in EP1 and killed Kanon with a rifle and a stake but in both EP1 and 2 he died accidentaly because the boiler started burning (maybe the problem comes with the "open/close button" Eva mentions when going down the stairs).

But that's not the only thing that makes me think the boiler room is strange....
After all when in EP2 the fake Kanon (clone according to my theory) attacks the servants Shannon instantly dashes to the boiler room and takes something that can stop Fake Kanon.

This would bring me to the conclusion that the boiler is the door to the room of the gold and/or Kinzo's laboratory where he does his research.

How the hell can i come up with such stupid theories?
It's just because I'm stupid to the bone XD

[Matrim]

Spoiler for random speculation in reply to to the posts above ;):

Perhaps he was burning the gun, spear or whatever weapon he used to kill the other 5 sacrifices and something went wrong, but i think it's just too complicated =x

Tempting explanation but why would he burn his weapon before he had reached the mgical number of six murders?

It's not 6 rooms, but one. The one where the culprit had the accident.

Then again this was Battler's conclusion and if there is one thing the readers of mystery novels have learned not do is to never trust the conclusions of the characters unless the character in question is the detective and he is making his final speech. Personally I believe Beatrice can tamper with the evidence (move bodies, lock doors, etc) which leads to the numerous locked room mysteries.

[The Creator]

Originally Posted by Matrim

Spoiler for random speculation in reply to to the posts above ;):

Tempting explanation but why would he burn his weapon before he had reached the mgical number of six murders?

Spoiler:

I don't know xD i just said thinking that kinzo was the culprit, but he hasn't to be the only suspect

Spoiler:

Then again this was Battler's conclusion and if there is one thing the readers of mystery novels have learned not do is to never trust the conclusions of the characters unless the character in question is the detective and he is making his final speech. Personally I believe Beatrice can tamper with the evidence (move bodies, lock doors, etc) which leads to the numerous locked room mysteries.

Personally i do agree with this theory, because it doesn't only explains it but made beatrice tripped.

And btw are you sure battler said this? I remember

Spoiler:

him saying that one of them could be the culprit but he didn't explain how the room were closed =X