(L+CR) Overlord Season 3

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

So far I couldn't really think that what Ainz did was outright evil. To me he always looked like someone who played the part of the evil overlord, while in fact doing things that can arguably be considered good.

Saving a village from genocide
Becoming an adventurer and help the populace
Killing a psychotic assassin and his evil mage companion
Fighting off bandits
Destroying a powerful criminal organization

Invading the Lizardmen and coming very close to killing them all.
Killing thousands of civilians when Demiurge invaded the Kingdom's capital. The death toll on that one was atrocious and indiscriminate.

[wissenschaft]

Well, this episode makes it clear that Ainz is solidly evil. That poor girl, she was too innocent to be a worker.

[Fwarlord]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

So far I couldn't really think that what Ainz did was outright evil. To me he always looked like someone who played the part of the evil overlord, while in fact doing things that can arguably be considered good.

Saving a village from genocide
Becoming an adventurer and help the populace
Killing a psychotic assassin and his evil mage companion
Fighting off bandits
Destroying a powerful criminal organization

He might have said and explained that he had ulterior motives for all of that, but if you look at the end result he did what you would expect from a hero.

However things have changed drastically at this point. Maybe it was his acceptance of Demiurgos' plan which involves waging war against the whole world, an undertaking that cannot happen without casualties, but at this point he clearly and unmistakably went down to the evil path. Not as far as getting pleasure from doing evil acts, but he clearly doesn't mind committing any kind of villainy if it is to his gain.

This is going to be an interesting development but I fear he's going to attract to himself a lot of hatred at this point. And just because someone is evil it doesn't mean he won't despise and try to stop other evil beings. He proved it himself in season one. And if he can be a hypocrite, so can his old friends.

That's not it. What Ainz did in this season was no different from what he did in previous ones a.k.a punishing evil people and wrongdoers. The workers in this arc were far from innocent. They were basically mercenaries willing to conduct illegal activities like robbing and murdering to take dirty money.

[GreyZone]

I think people are missing the point here. This arc has, as far as I have seen, 2 main points to make:


1. It subtly points out the audience's hypocrisy regarding whether or not someone deserves death (or worse) based on knowledge of their circumstances. People seem to sympathize with Arche here due to her background and consider Nazarick's actions to be evil mostly based on that. I don't think that conclusion would be the same if all invaders had been like the guy with the elf slaves.

But is that really fair? Then what about the various "mob-characters"? People just seem to come to their own conclusions based on what they wish to be true.

For example, what if the Theocracy Knight (disguised as Empire Knight) from S1 EP3 that Ainz killed with Dragon Lightning early on in the show actually had a sob story about his daughter having an illness that can only be cured by very expensive medicine and the only way to get enough money for that medicine would be to participate in this dangerous mission where they might have been killed by Gazef Stronoff before the main force with the angels arrive? But because he stood right next to his collegue who seemed to enjoy the situation, people just assumed that he is probably just as much a horrible psychopaths who just enjoys killing people even though there is no actual evidence for that.

So Arche only really showed that most of the audience is just a bunch of hypocritical jerks with prejudice who assumes the worst of characters with no background story. I also thought the same when reading this part of the LN, so I am not really one to talk tehe~


2. People call Ainz "evil" but mostly only because of forgetting season 1 and missing the big picture.

The (default) moral compass of Ainz is usually that of a corporate CEO (even though he was only a regular salaryman himself as a human), all about the "profit" of Nazarick, though probably a bit on the extreme end because what most anime watchers don't know is that Suzuki Satoru (the guy who controls Momonga) actually lived in a dystopian society where cronysm is widespread and big corporations control everything (this is only mentioned in LN character sheets and will probably never be mentioned in the anime) where work conditions are much harsher than in our time. This is probably why he is willing to be rather cruel when it comes to making profit for Nazarick.

One more element is that Ainz seems to be a person who doesn't show any mercy toward those he sees as enemies. He is even worse toward those who he has personal grudges against escpacially if someone insults Nazarick or its guildmembers and/or their creations. Vice-versa if someone gives genunine praise for Nazarick or Nazarick members, like in the case of Nemu.

Another very important element are the memories of Ulbert (creator of Demi-Urge) and Touch Me (creator of Sebas Tian). They are like the "devil and the angel on the shoulders who whisper into your ear"-imaginry that should be well known from various kinds of visual fiction.

Ulbert's evilness and cruelty influnece Ainz through Demi-Urge's plans, which often contains cruelty just for the sake of cruelty, even though some of it doesn't give any additonal "profit" to Nazarick, but the plans themselves are solid otherwise, so Ainz obviously keeps relying on these plans.

Touch Me's motto of "saving someone's who is in trouble is common sense" is something that Ainz cherishes a lot, but it's often mutually exclusive with the part about wanting profit for Nazarick, so he needs to make some kind of "excuse" for throwing the profit away. And he found this excuse and has been using it ever since the part at the beginning of the story when he saw Touch Me when looking at Sebas, though it's a bit subtle: "Let's save/spare/revive him/her/it/them for the sake of an experiment". In other words, Ainz does most his good deeds whenever he says "let's do this for the sake of an experiment" because the results are unknown, which makes it compatible with his profit mindset. Some of the Nazarick residents seemed to have noticed the pattern that Ainz is more likely to accept a request if it's in the guise of an experiment, escpacially Demi-Urge and Sebas.


I think this subtleness of his good deeds in contrast to the obviousness of the bad deeds caused by following Demi-Urge's plans, as well as this particular instance where point "1." applies is what makes Ainz look so "evil" to people in this arc, but looking at the big picture it's much more complex as you can see.



Sorry for bothering you all with this Wall of Text.

[Incest Emblem]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

So far I couldn't really think that what Ainz did was outright evil. To me he always looked like someone who played the part of the evil overlord, while in fact doing things that can arguably be considered good.

There are a few techniques at work here. I will go by the TV Tropes names rather than their proper sociological or psychological terms (because I do not know them).

1. A million is a statistic
Basically, we care about a few people to whom we have been introduced more than a mass of faceless people. Before this point, Nazarick had made unprovoked attacks on innocent groups at least two times:

The first were the lizard tribes, whom they attacked to see if they can raise more powerful undead than using a human corpse. The genocide provides the most interesting use of this technique, as it ended with Cocytus getting mercy for a few lizards to whom we have been introduced, while many very much remain dead.

The second were the 10,000 or so civilians kidnapped from the kingdom during Demiurge's attack.

2. The faceless mooks
This is a similar effect as 1, except on a smaller scale. We care about people to whom we have been introduced more than strangers. This applies to the adventurers that were with Brita when Shalltear attacked them.

3. The asshole victim
Here, a villainous character kills or harms another villainous character. Because we think of the victim as deserving of punishment, we think less negatively about the perpetrator, even if the perpetrator did the act out of evil reasons.

Examples include the Sunlit Scripture, Clementine, the Eight Fingers. That group of adventurers that followed Momon when he went to subjugate Shalltear straddles categories 2 and 3.

I would peg Ainz as definitely evil when he decided to kill the group of adventurers for following him rather than use the memory alteration spell he had.

[Yan3242]

Didn't you watch S2?

I did, but for some reason i didnt feel like he was as evil as episode 8 right now. Probably because...
- early season 2, lizard arc. Well.. they are lizard so maybe i just dont feel connected with them.
- the cante/kingdom arc. Those are genuine criminal so again i dont feel anything.

Basically ainz never shown clearly killing (neutral/good) people as clear as episode 8. Which is why is an eye opener for me. I mean, i knew he and others done it many times before, but this probably the first for me to clearly seen on screen.

[Sixth]

I always know that Nazerick is villain but even so this episode still left a bitter taste for me.

[Forever]

Originally Posted by Sixth

I always know that Nazerick is villain but even so this episode still left a bitter taste for me.

I login just to agree with you. This was truly a salty episode. In my heart, I so wanted arche to survive, but in the end, she was sliced up like a pig.

To ains, humans are mere farm animals.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Invading the Lizardmen and coming very close to killing them all.

You mean uniting the lizard tribes and conquering them with minimal casualties and even going as far as resurrecting some of them.

Name one unification war in our real world that had less casualties and that is considered evil and not outright considered heroic.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Killing thousands of civilians when Demiurge invaded the Kingdom's capital. The death toll on that one was atrocious and indiscriminate.

Well that was decidedly evil, but this was mainly Demiurge's idea. I guess that Ainz started going toward the really evil path at that moment, but at that moment he was mainly on a passive stance, letting Demiurge do whatever he wanted. This is still Demiurge's plan but Ainz is decidedly taking an active role in it this time.

Originally Posted by Fwarlord

That's not it. What Ainz did in this season was no different from what he did in previous ones a.k.a punishing evil people and wrongdoers. The workers in this arc were far from innocent. They were basically mercenaries willing to conduct illegal activities like robbing and murdering to take dirty money.

I decidedly disagree with the way you see the situation. Apart from a few of them I see no evidence that they were willing to kill sentient beings to rob them of their money. In the first place they were paid to explore the place, and when Momon asked why they would do that he clearly asked if they were offered enough money. They didn't even know for sure if there was any money at all in the ruins when they accepted the task. There is no doubt that the money they referred to when they said they were willing to stake their lives on was not dirty money, but money given to them to perform a task.

I can't see in them any guilt apart from trespassing and if that warrants death and torture Ainz might just as well redefine the concept of "innocent" as someone that has absolutely no sin and at that point he might as well justify killing children because they lied to their parents.

Originally Posted by Incest Emblem

even if the perpetrator did the act out of evil reasons.

That is the key issue here. Because actions that are normally considered evil like killing and imprisoning have completely different moral implications if they are meant to stop someone from committing evil acts. Let's take for example the Carne Village situation. Ainz ended up killing several soldiers, but they were the aggressors and he did it to prevent them from slaughtering civilians. As we have seen recently, there wasn't really an ulterior motive to that, Ainz simply couldn't just watch, he also didn't need to go as far as to gifts precious items to the survivors.

On the other hand Demiurge is evil and he couldn't simply see the fact as being an action performed merely out of good will, and that's how he saw that as a stepping stone for world domination, which wasn't Ainz's intention at all.

[Mr. DJ]

I think that was probably the dumbest thing Ainz has said in the series. You're an experienced MMO player and question why adventurers are going to explore a newly discovered tomb?

[SilverGlavenus]

Originally Posted by Mr. DJ

I think that was probably the dumbest thing Ainz has said in the series. You're an experienced MMO player and question why adventurers are going to explore a newly discovered tomb?

Ainz is basicallly masturbating with the thought that he is doing good for his tomb and servants. I personally believe that if he had let Arche go, he would have proved that he has a reasonable motive and does not mindlessly kill. The part with the two sisters is just sad.

[Ultragunner]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Invading the Lizardmen and coming very close to killing them all.
Killing thousands of civilians when Demiurge invaded the Kingdom's capital. The death toll on that one was atrocious and indiscriminate.

For the first part, I can see your point. But in all honestly, Ainz was probably only looking at the Lizardmen as regular mob to farm "exp" (lol), or for Cocytus to grow from "experience"

for the second one, Ainz didn't really think up the plan, it was all Demi's own doing. Ainz was just going with the flow. Yeah, he could order Demi to stop the entire operation, but why bother? and again, Ainz (Satoru Suzuki the person) isn't that bright in all honesty. He was just an ordinary every Japanese salaryman that was into gaming.


All in all, this episode proves a few points about Overlord:
1) Ainz is not a hero, even "anti-hero" doesn't fit him
2) nothing is black and white, everything is just....complicated

and:

Originally Posted by GreyZone

I think people are missing the point here. This arc has, as far as I have seen, 2 main points to make:


1. It subtly points out the audience's hypocrisy regarding whether or not someone deserves death (or worse) based on knowledge of their circumstances. People seem to sympathize with Arche here due to her background and consider Nazarick's actions to be evil mostly based on that. I don't think that conclusion would be the same if all invaders had been like the guy with the elf slaves.

this one I wholeheartedly agree with.
Don't we often praise the villains that have a fleshed out story? Now how about a group of "would-be-the-protagonists" as the opposition to the main character?

Don't get me wrong, Nazarick by nature (and design) is rooted in the idea of "evil". .
The creators (41 Supreme Beings) created the most gruesome and eldritch monsters, because it was a game duh #edgy . Now it has become reality, and Ainz, being the leader of the whole entity, is inherently NOT benevolent

This is why Ainz, Momonga, is such an interesting MC despite having the most generic backstory ever #ordinary #salaryman #isekai

[JokerD]

Originally Posted by Fwarlord

That's not it. What Ainz did in this season was no different from what he did in previous ones a.k.a punishing evil people and wrongdoers. The workers in this arc were far from innocent. They were basically mercenaries willing to conduct illegal activities like robbing and murdering to take dirty money.

I would point out the reason they were there was because Ainz lured them there. It's like hiring (indirectly) someone to test your defences then killing them inside.
And you don't pay them.

But Arche WAS written to evoke sympathy and allow the reader/watchers to relate to her, because of the debt, nasty parent and dependants back story, so it should be no surprise that she gets this response.

Having said that, would the Silk Hat demon find her useful though, given she can only cast level 3 spells.

[Randrak42]

I'm just gonna put this here...

[Fwarlord]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I decidedly disagree with the way you see the situation. Apart from a few of them I see no evidence that they were willing to kill sentient beings to rob them of their money. In the first place they were paid to explore the place, and when Momon asked why they would do that he clearly asked if they were offered enough money. They didn't even know for sure if there was any money at all in the ruins when they accepted the task. There is no doubt that the money they referred to when they said they were willing to stake their lives on was not dirty money, but money given to them to perform a task.

I can't see in them any guilt apart from trespassing and if that warrants death and torture Ainz might just as well redefine the concept of "innocent" as someone that has absolutely no sin and at that point he might as well justify killing children because they lied to their parents.

Except the "task" they were given was a very illegal one. I think you grossly underestimate the potential damage their action could have created. They accepted the request of a noble to essentially invade another country's soil to rob off potentially invaluable from an unexploited historical sight, which maybe even belonged to a forgotten civilization. It could easily be perceived as a declaration of war, which could lead to countless death and destruction. Being in their line of business, they should have figured this out right after hearing the request. But they accepted it regardless, meaning they gave no care for all the bloodshed they could have caused. It was clearly an immoral decision.
Maybe the anime didn't deliver the issue quite well, but in the LN Foresight clearly thought about the idea that the ruin may be occupied by someone (maybe even humans, not just monsters), and about how they would be free to kill everything they met, since it's the nature of their career. In other words, they were just plain homicidal robber who killed for money, and they indeed kill Ainz's subjects in the tomb, thus he had each and every right to defend his home against them by using lethal force.

Originally Posted by JokerD

I would point out the reason they were there was because Ainz lured them there. It's like hiring (indirectly) someone to test your defences then killing them inside.
And you don't pay them.

But Arche WAS written to evoke sympathy and allow the reader/watchers to relate to her, because of the debt, nasty parent and dependants back story, so it should be no surprise that she gets this response.

Having said that, would the Silk Hat demon find her useful though, given she can only cast level 3 spells.

Ainz didn't directly lure them there. He just put up a request to attract immoral people, the lowest kind of scums who would kill for money to come. It's basically a sting operation where cops disguise as customers to find and capture assassins.
Also Arche deserved no pity. She had multiple chances to survive, like taking another job that doesn't put her life on the life, begging her teacher Fludder for help, abandoning her greedy parents and fleeing with her sisters, or even taking the money at the entrance of the tomb and leaving. But she just had to choose her own death.

[Itlandm]

Well, whatever the motives of Momonga or its player, it is abundantly clear from the ending of this episode that the anime was trying to point out his villainy this time. There is no other easily conceivable reason for that heart-rending scene with the little girls at the end. I haven't read the novels so I can only speak about the anime, but at this point it seems to work hard to paint the titular Overlord in black and crimson.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Mr. DJ

I think that was probably the dumbest thing Ainz has said in the series. You're an experienced MMO player and question why adventurers are going to explore a newly discovered tomb?

Being a MMO player has nothing to do with the situation. In a game, your only investment is time and money (sub and gacha etc).
The new world may have some similarities with Yggdrassil, but they aren't doing this for shit and giggles: they can die, which is the very reason why he didn't throw any punch when he questioned the workers before going to the tomb. He also mentioned adventurers, because unlike workers, they have to abide to rules. As such, if the situation arises, adventures -must- report for duty (e.g. during operation Gehenna). Meanwhile, workers are free to decline offers and stuff, so all of them took the job, while being aware of the risks. Heck, Rober blatantly mentioned there might be a very powerful undead in the tomb, but they were all the more excited for the riches and stuff.


If I had to complain about Ainz, it is his outrage about invaders "taining the soil of the nazarick" tomb, even though he agreed to Demiurge's plan to begin with. This sounds quite hypocritical, which he somewhat admits, since he blatantly says his anger is just some selfish tantrum considering the context.
So really, the situation isn't really black or white, since both parties were pretty much asking for that outcome anyway. In my perspective, there is no good or evil at all here. It is just plain business for both sides.

[Yan3242]

I always know that Nazerick is villain but even so this episode still left a bitter taste for me.

Because it is what the writer want, they want you to feel that way.

There is a reason why foresight is getting some backstory. To make us feel sympathy for them, especially to arche who has more focus backstory. Compare to other worker who die, i actually feel nothing toward them, in fact i laugh at some of it. Then foresight scene and i feel somewhat disturb, not hate or mad just... sad.

If foresight never get backstory i doubt i feel sad for them, in fact i probably cheer for ainz because my perspective will change from "a group who try to make money to help one of their member" to "a nobody group who try to raid a tomb and hope to get rich just because they can"

In this way i definitely fell to what the writer want to try. Because, if you think about it... these people has no more role to play, its not like they will be mention anymore, in fact we probably forget about them after 1 or 2 episode.

[DemonneoPT]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

If I had to complain about Ainz, it is his outrage about invaders "taining the soil of the nazarick" tomb, even though he agreed to Demiurge's plan to begin with. This sounds quite hypocritical, which he somewhat admits, since he blatantly says his anger is just some selfish tantrum considering the context.
So really, the situation isn't really black or white, since both parties were pretty much asking for that outcome anyway. In my perspective, there is no good or evil at all here. It is just plain business for both sides.

He got mad because for a moment he actually believed that one of his friends from the guild was also teleported to that world and sent Foresight to confirm Ainz's identity. That's why he got salty to the guy..lol. Either way, Ainz always admitted his hipocrisy since season 1. That's what happens when human memories get an undead body that suppress and remove emotion regarding humans or any other people aside from Nazarick. Which makes sense since all the NPCs have the backstory of being evil and support each other with "nakama" mentality. Ainz's body is kinda programmed to do the same. It's in his Role Play lore just like the NPC programs. His human past tries not to harm people just because, but that goes against his current evil alignment so, to bypass it, Ainz sets goals or possible rewards to Nazarick to justify his cruel actions and somewhat trick his old human personality into going along with it. He is a messed up character since the beggining and a gold mine for a psychiatrist to study

[Klashikari]

I'm not even talking about his rage regarding Hekkeran's lie. I'm talking about his displeasure regarding the invasion of the workers.