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Old 2020-11-04, 21:16   Link #1181
Jaden
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I don't think most people vote (for or against) based on logical reasons that they're able to articulate. They just have a feeling.

Sure, when pressed for reasons, people will come up with all kinds of talking points and partisan issues. But when pressed further by some political junkie that's done their research, you'll find that they don't know a great deal of what they're even talking about, nor do they really care.

And I believe the biggest feeling Trump supporters have is POWER. As soon as Trump announced his run, he projected a vision that this is somebody who would shake up the world more than any other candidate. In other words, to vote for Trump and to get him elected would be a far greater expression of power than doing so for the other candidates, with the possible exception of Sanders.

That was 2016. Now, everyone sees viscerally that the vision came true. So in addition to casting the most powerful vote, there is the euphoria that comes from being part of the biggest populist movement in existence.
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Old 2020-11-04, 21:24   Link #1182
OH&S
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Just ask them "why?". Don't argue with them, or get them a different point of view. Just try to understand their point of view without getting judgmental. One of the worse things to come from the internet is that people don't listen. They just judge and dismiss.

Just like in 2016, people were wondering not so much how Trump won, but why so many people voted for him. In 2020, even more people voted for him. So...there are bound to be many reasons, yet they can't all be "those people are all racists" or whatever the blanket wash of the though of so many Americans voting Trump has been. The media in particular need to, again, stop looking only in the major population centers and start looking at the rest of America. Because America is not just New York City, Los Angeles and Chicago.
I don't necessarily believe they're all racists but they're either completely oblivious to all of Trump's racist rhetoric or they're willing to turn a blind eye to it so long as it helps them. For example, I know that there are rust belt manufacturing workers who voted for Trump because he ended up having an impact on them getting an increase in demand. The racism and all the other bat-shit crazy stuff are mutually exclusive issues for them.

Outside of simple voters like them, I rarely see any conservative argue in good faith on any of the controversial things that have happened in this presidency let alone in this thread. (I think frivolity might be the sole exception and maybe you if my huge assumption is correct).

EDIT: Jaden's take seems pretty spot on. Here's another similar version:
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Last edited by OH&S; 2020-11-04 at 21:39.
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Old 2020-11-04, 21:33   Link #1183
Sheba
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Its not so fun when the Jill Stein situation is against you, uh 4chan?

https://twitter.com/mothistopheles/s...428667392?s=19
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Old 2020-11-04, 22:12   Link #1184
Ithekro
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Politically I tend to try to stay around the middle. I think this happens because my parents are on different sides. My father is pro-Trump (though he's an American Independent, not a Republican), while my mother is a Democrat (part of the teacher's union for decades). I vote for whomever I believe in and try to not stick to a party (I am officially classified as Undecided.)

I did not vote Trump in either election, as I have no faith in him. Yet I didn't have any faith in Clinton nor much in Biden. In 2016 I wrote in Sanders. This year is it was Jorgensen. Being in California...the state voted Democrat by nearly a two to one ratio.

Being a history major, I try to figure out what happened, so I observe. But since I have friends on both sides via friends of my parents and my own friends, I get to observe the spite both sides have for each other, yet they are actually calling each other the same things (more or less) and most of it isn't really true...just spin based on worse case possibilities if the other party was actually unAmerican and willing to hand the country over to China or Russia in whole, or completely destroy the Constitution that given them the power they have. And both are claiming the other is destroying America. Either they are both wrong or the are both right. If they are both wrong, than they need to chill and get a grip. If they are both right, we are screwed regardless who wins. And which point the election more a source of entertainment on the level of a scripted World Wide Wrestling Entertainent major event is.

The Reds vs Blues has gotten to sports team levels of idiocy. Including the riots upon victory or loss during the major elections. Just like when a football team or whatever wins/loses the Superbowl....the two teams playing get their towns wrecked at the end.
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Old 2020-11-04, 22:33   Link #1185
cyberdemon
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My family tends to go moderate but we lean different ways. Mostly all agree financially conservative and socially liberal. Gets good debate going. My dad though has never voted outside Republican and yet even he can’t bring himself to vote for Trump.
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Old 2020-11-04, 22:41   Link #1186
Guardian Enzo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberdemon View Post
Is there still enough ballots in pa for a flip to be likely? Biden is still trailing by 240k
Almost all the mail ballots are from very blue parts of the state. Biden has been winning them 80-20 as they come in and needs only about 60% of the remaining ballots to win.

Also, as mail ballots have completed counts in many counties Biden is running 4-5% ahead of HRC's number. As she only lost PA by less than 1%, that should be more than enough.
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Old 2020-11-04, 23:05   Link #1187
cyberdemon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
Almost all the mail ballots are from very blue parts of the state. Biden has been winning them 80-20 as they come in and needs only about 60% of the remaining ballots to win.

Also, as mail ballots have completed counts in many counties Biden is running 4-5% ahead of HRC's number. As she only lost PA by less than 1%, that should be more than enough.
Good to hear. I’ll still take it with a grain of salt till it happens but it is reassuring with az becoming more competitive. Ironic that my childhood state (az) and my current state (pa) could cement Biden. Sadly he’ll have a senate that won’t work with him for 2 years. Though I am guessing that they will play nice during that time to secure reelection then focus on disrupting Biden after that to get a republican president elected. They’ll have to tread carefully these next 2 years or they could deal with the consequences without Trump to back them. McConnell has already opened up discussions on a stimulus package.
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Old 2020-11-04, 23:35   Link #1188
Guardian Enzo
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The Senate is undecided. Both GA seats are going to a runoff.
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Old 2020-11-04, 23:39   Link #1189
cyberdemon
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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
The Senate is undecided. Both GA seats are going to a runoff.
Purdue from what I see has more than a 50% advantage. Small one but shouldn’t that exempt him from a run off?
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Old 2020-11-04, 23:40   Link #1190
Ithekro
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Looking at the current vote and the places that sided extreme one way or the other:

For Trump:

West Virginia
Wyoming
North Dakota
Oklahoma

For Biden:

District of Columbia
Vermont
Massachusetts
California

The District of Columbia though...they basically gave Trump the middle finger with there 93% vote for Biden.
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Old 2020-11-05, 00:10   Link #1191
Guardian Enzo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberdemon View Post
Purdue from what I see has more than a 50% advantage. Small one but shouldn’t that exempt him from a run off?
The same remaining ballots that may give Biden the state will push Perdue under 50%.
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Old 2020-11-05, 01:05   Link #1192
Johnny Dy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OH&S View Post
I'm currently watching an interview with a Pennsylvania voter who voted Trump in 2016 but Biden in 2020.

Reasons for Trump in 2016: Would be hardest against ISIS and was against illegal immigration.
Thus:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Dy View Post
I really don't think that's Biden's fault nor his campaign, more like the regressed state of the american brain that no campaign or reason in the world can make a healthy appeal to - so so sadly. I think the american mind is more afraid to lose it's social status and it's freedom to terror than actually root for a good man opposed to a bad man <=> the american mind is a coward. As everyone asks why the polls were "that wrong" I think those cowards would not show in the polls as they would lie to hide their cowardly nature; so the dead really did vote in a matter of speaking. Just my opinion.
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Sometimes the reason voting for Trump are simple. And I'm not really harsh on people who voted for Trump in 2016.

But those voting for him in 2020, which is apparently half the country, after everything he's done... I don't even know what to say about these people.
I would be harsh against the cowards of 2016 and 10 times harsher against the cowards of 2020. The cowards of 2016 have only one attenuating circumstance: the most hateful woman ever to run for presidency. I can see why Trump might have looked better compared to that. But that's not politics prose.

To my mind to be republican is to be a coward, the conservators are almost the same. These 2 parties lobby against progress, pursuit of knowledge and helping everyone on the globe that deserve help, to the point of preserving just american life, may it be more regressed than ever, including by waging wars only on economical benefit. There are some things I truly dislike in democrat demagogy like overbureaucracy for every little shit, but almost all of the republican for overfear that breads overconsumption of resources for overprotection. This problem is more obvious in America, but spread pretty much in every democractic country. No wonder people lean a little towards absolutism systems again, but they don't know that corruption is still superior to tyranny.

And most of all that disgusts me is the fear of immigrants! I've never understood this, it's truly and utterly retarded. We are republicans and guarantee you these bastards won't get in our country! Really? Are they less human and don't deserve the same chance to do a job as you do? If they do it cheaper it just means they work for less money than you do - not less quality, maybe because of them not being such pretentious bastards as you are. Why does that bother you? Because the colors of true cowardice are plenty shown then, you don't want him to compete in the same market as you; even if most jobs to be competed for are the ones at the very bottom of all the industries - being done cheaper by a sort of semi-slave force that you don't want in your country for fear they will somehow sip at the economical status of the average american. It's like... I don't want to break my back carrying those cement bags, but I don't want that mexican guy do it cheaper than me either! That's hilarious! How one can be a supporter of such a party, with such "ideals" is beyond me, and even proudly admit the reason: it's like saying "I am a coward and a hypocrite, and I'm proud to be!" Mind numbing... Just my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaden View Post
I don't think most people vote (for or against) based on logical reasons that they're able to articulate. They just have a feeling.
Amin. Most of it being fear. Fear of terror which I understand, but the fear of losing social status, being to lazy to compete for work, is a truly cowards fear.
Because at equal competences and equal effort, nobody would chose a foreigner over a conational. NOBODY! Not just in America, but everywhere.
The only jobs that everywhere are payed less for foreigners than for conationals are the basic jobs, that don't need any qualification except self sacrifice. I believe everyone has a right to compete for those jobs, because everyone has a right to compete for his life, may it be social less valued than another.

I'm thinking from a personal perspective, hard labor jobs are hard to do, you need stern people. I for instance, if I'd had to do it, I'd probably starve, I'm not build for it no matter how much I try. If I'd been born into the slave period, I'd be from the lot that didn't make it through the 1st month. I should be thankful to those who come do it for me, instead of restrictive. If my own people don't want to do it at full salary, a stranger who would do it at 60% pay demand would be a God sent! That's how I see it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
unAmerican and willing to hand the country over to China or Russia in whole, or completely destroy the Constitution that given them the power they have. And both are claiming the other is destroying America. Either they are both wrong or the are both right. If they are both wrong, than they need to chill and get a grip. If they are both right, we are screwed regardless who wins.
If it's one thing history (but not exclusively, but also any major book, anime, movie) teaches us is that you should never deal in absolutes. Whoever does that is a danger to himself and anyone else his grip extends to. Although not always the most moral thing to do, the wisdom of common ground must be found. Because we're all cowards sometimes, we're all hypocrites sometimes. What makes character is being able to admit it, and try to change it, even if just a little. With other words, I don't dislike cowards and hypocrites, as admittedly I am sometimes one of them too, I dislike those who haven't the wisdom to admit it, nor at least want to take the effort to ponder the arguments for or against it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
The District of Columbia though...they basically gave Trump the middle finger with there 93% vote for Biden.
That's why the voting system in America is undemocratic. Any voting system in which the majority doesn't win, is antidemocratic. This shouldn't have been close at all if it were 100% democratic.
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Last edited by Johnny Dy; 2020-11-05 at 02:20.
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Old 2020-11-05, 02:02   Link #1193
The Green One
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Well anyway looks like we're going into day 3. Looks like it's going to be nailbiter to the bitter end. Good on them for taking their jobs seriously, however it ends up.
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Old 2020-11-05, 04:20   Link #1194
Sheba
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Originally Posted by The Green One View Post
Well anyway looks like we're going into day 3. Looks like it's going to be nailbiter to the bitter end. Good on them for taking their jobs seriously, however it ends up.
Who would have believed that the future of the country and democratic process rested on the shoulders of diligent postmen and vote counters doing their job?
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Old 2020-11-05, 04:32   Link #1195
Johnny Dy
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That's a good one. Trump counted on that, that's why he slammed the delay as illegal and demands "justice" at whatever high courts. That and the fact he knew most would be Biden votes. He honestly thought any human with 2 neurons working in series wouldn't notice that? What a moron. But hey, somebody elected him president. Don't look at me, wasn't me.
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Crime and punishment, an age old dilemma. Man has long sought a solution to societies ills. But at what point does the punishment itself... become a crime?

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Old 2020-11-05, 04:44   Link #1196
The Green One
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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
Who would have believed that the future of the country and democratic process rested on the shoulders of diligent postmen and vote counters doing their job?
People doing their job diligently and doing it well.

What a new and novel concept.
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Old 2020-11-05, 07:42   Link #1197
Magin
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You know, even if Biden manages to pull off the last votes needed for the EC victory (I'm hopeful, but not counting my chickens)... it really is going to feel like a pyrrhic victory. Sure, there's a Democrat who will hopefully be progressive in the White House... but we've now seen that the American population has socially regressed (we'll have to see what the Popular vote shows for any confirmation of this).

And so I ask, why? Well, beyond my initial knee-jerk reaction, when i think about it... well, it's a numbers game, and most people are bad with big numbers. Let me give you guys a perspective:

There's 330 million people in the US... even with Covid deaths, we're still talking maybe 329 million. But I'm keeping my easy number. Let's write that out, full length: 330,000,000.

Now, I'm going to be generous and say that we can count about 40% of the American population to actually like trump. 40% of 330,000,000 is 132,000,000. I'm seeing people freaking out over "60 million people actually voted for this guy???"... well, that's of what you know. That leaves about 70 million people that still vote Republican that you DON'T know about.

On top of this, I think there's two more major factors that Dems have chosen to ignore... well, three really. We're collecting all this info from ONLINE... which while there's certainly a good portion of Repubs online, many big social media places are heavily liberal. So you've already got an information source that's heavily biased and inaccurate. Now add in this: Dems are absolutely TERRIBLE at marketing. Trump may be many horrible, terrible things that you'd think people would see past, but he has exactly one strength: he's damned good at being a conman. And he has the right audience too; the Trump brand carries a certain image and feeling with it, despite it being total bullshit. But people aren't logical, rational creatures; we're emotion based. And Trump knows how to tap that emotion. Consider this, and a HUGE failing on the Dem's part. In Florida, the Latino population overwhelmingly went for Trump. Why? because they came from ACTUAL communist/socialist countries (yes, I'm aware there's a difference, but for my purposes, people are equating them as the same). Dems did all of Jack Shit to distance themselves from these labales, and very few people are going to do research on what the terms actually mean, outside of listening to Fox News (which is a huge problem itself) saying those are Bad, Evil things. As much as I support Sanders, he did himself no favors by keeping the Social part of his political label. So failing to distance from a label that's just too ingrained with fear... again, Dems are SHIT at marketing, despite how horrendous the Repubs are.

Then you have my personal theory: I know for a fact that people are changing states in droves- the online chatter is going from a Red State to a Blue State. This means that the concentration of political stances are being increased... so you're just making Red states even redder and Blue states even more blue. Yes, we have exceptions- Arizona appears to have flipped. But when you take your vote from a place where it could change which way the EC goes and put it with a place that's already going a certain way... yes, this is a problem with the EC, but it's what we have until the politicians decide to change it. I'm from New York originally, and even though i went Dem... NY ALWAYS goes Dem.

And then there's the issue that Critical Thinking appears to have taken a Critical Hit... and why Betsy Devos needs to be removed Asap, even though damage has already been done for many years, unfortunately.

EDIT: Oh, one more thing for the pile that I think is EXTREMELY important. Everyone though it would be a blowout for Biden, but they (myself included) forgot what we said about Trump in the early days: Trump is a SYMPTOM, not just the problem. There are much, much deeper issues at play here, but to fix those is going to take time and energy, and it's a long road. People would much rather just fix the easy symptom, but that's not going to fix the deeper issues that may just lead to a smarter version of Trump in the future.
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Last edited by Magin; 2020-11-05 at 08:06.
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Old 2020-11-05, 10:22   Link #1198
Jaden
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You know, even if Biden manages to pull off the last votes needed for the EC victory (I'm hopeful, but not counting my chickens)... it really is going to feel like a pyrrhic victory.
Oh, yeah. Highest turnout since 1900, and a higher turnout is always supposed to favor Dems. Yet, the blue wave didn't come. What am I supposed to think about that, other than that Democratic party is just the shittiest it's ever been? And will there even be a corpse left of the Republican party when the Trump momentum dies out?

To be positive, I'd say this could be the time for minor parties to finally get off the ground.
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Old 2020-11-05, 10:27   Link #1199
cyberdemon
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Georgia apparently has 60k more absentee ballots and Trump is only ahead by 18k. Biden might pull off the upset in Georgia.
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Old 2020-11-05, 10:46   Link #1200
mangamuscle
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Originally Posted by Jaden View Post
Oh, yeah. Highest turnout since 1900, and a higher turnout is always supposed to favor Dems. Yet, the blue wave didn't come. What am I supposed to think about that, other than that Democratic party is just the shittiest it's ever been?
Since they killed the kennedys, the democrats have never truly recovered imo.

Quote:
And will there even be a corpse left of the Republican party when the Trump momentum dies out?
I don't see trumpism dying, remember how reagan became the new face of the gop for decades and trump has grabbed them by the pussy and he wont let go, the republicans are now his bitches (oh, they did a Faustian bargain and now it is time to pay).

Quote:
To be positive, I'd say this could be the time for minor parties to finally get off the ground.
I do not see that happening, at bestt you might have a schism in both the DNC and the GOP and get more political parties that way.
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