World of Warships [Wargaming.net]

[Psyco Diver]

I think this is a bad idea, most subs went 20ish on surface and 6-8 submerged. People whine about the American BBs already being to slow

[Renegade334]

Recently saw a new thread on Reddit concerning the datamined models: some of them (Balao) apparently can go up to 25-29kt (say what?) and oh surprise, there's even a T10 Russian sub that can reach 31kt.

Realism-chan, we hardly knew ye. Or did we even...?

EDIT: https://www.reddit.com/r/WorldOfWars...iew_of_t10_ss/

YouTube

https://youtu.be/ne8HZ_EazjA

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[Psyco Diver]

If they do that to their speed then I'm permanently done with this game

[Renegade334]

Gameplay from gamescom:

YouTube

https://youtu.be/_hdpa3ghQ5k

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Homing torpedoes. Homing.
A'ight. *walks off while scratching head*

[Ithekro]

Acoustic torpedoes were first used in 1943. This seems to attempt to mimic that within the game mechanics.

[Renegade334]

I know that, but it adds to my concerns about counterplay, especially for the cruisers and battleships that are more than a little vulnerable against submerged subs, as the video shows.

Given that sub torps will now score underwater citadel hits left and right, making it that job even easier for the future subs is not necessarily the best thing to do...not to mention it puts a serious onus on DDs to not only push for caps, scout for targets but also provide crucial protection against subs, all the while avoiding surface and air threats.

[Ithekro]

In theory, aircraft should be able to spot submarines at some point. This would include spotter aircraft normally. (mind you that you can't spot deep submerged submarines with hydro acoustic search...which was what they were designed for...subject to change of course.) That was one of the main uses for the escort carriers, after all, and other carriers, like USS Ranger, also dealt with ASW warfare in the Battle of the Atlantic.

But, as mentioned in places, the oxygen on the submarines will be a major limitation to just how long they can be submerged. Plus they can only fire torpedoes with the acoustic homing from periscope depth, where they are at their slowest. Pinging the target will give away the sub's location, and if they remain at periscope depth, they can be spotted by cruisers and battleships if they are close enough. And any cruiser or battleship can outrun a submarine at periscope depth. Even the slow American ones. You can run away from the last known ping position, or head for it and hope to close the distance so you can spot them visually (should they remain on the surface or at periscope depth so they can fight you), or with hydro acoustic search. If they try to run deep, they will run out of oxygen eventually, and unless they are really close to you, they can't see you.

If the submarined is detected at periscope depth, it could be fired on by cruiser and battleship guns using HE. A cruiser or battleship could probably even ram a submarine with effective results (HMS Dreadnought did).

While a submarine can fire torpedoes on the surface, they are more like a small destroyer at that point, and can just be shot by a cruiser or battleship.

Deep submerged subs can't fire torpedoes, nor can they spot a target more than 2 km away via proxy detection only. And even then, its only for their own benefit. They are out of contact with their own team (at least on the mini-map it seems), so even if a deep submerged sub is shadowing you, I don't think it can give away your position to the rest of their fleet (since communications blocking would got both ways). While they are still unrealistically fast submerged (subject to change), they can't fight from down there. They have to come up to periscope depth to fight effectively, and until they get snorkels, they'll still run out of oxygen within say five minutes of underwater operations. While some ballsy or stupid sub drivers are going to deep sea yolo into the caps, they won't be able to stay there for long without surfacing, and every time they ping a target, they will be spotted in some fashion.

If carriers get an ASW flight, they will aid the destroyers in the sub hunt. If ASW warfare doesn't work out as good as planned, it is logical to add some light cruisers to the list of ships that can go sub hunting. Heavy cruisers didn't usually do this, and battleships certainly didn't.

However there is also the possibility of using your own team's submarine to hunt the enemy sub.

Since subs are tier 6, 8, and 10, I image they will be limited to one or two subs per side, per battle like carriers presently are. Though I don't know what this will displace in current random battles.

If the higher tier subs follow the pattern, they will still only launch two torpedoes at a time from their forward tubes...they'll just have upwards of three sets of them to launch, plus sets of aft tubes they can fire after they turn around. Unless of course they introduce some of the French submarines (and possibly others) that has trainable external tubes mounted flush with the hull, but could rotate to port or starboard. These tended to be for surface firing only, if I understand them correctly. For sinking damaged ships on the surface, as oppose to using a deck gun to finish off a burning freighter. They seemed to typically be smaller torpedoes, so they could same the larger ones for normal combat and raiding.

I'd like to see, if they can work out the mechanics of the standard submarines, the weirder designs. The cruiser submarines, that had a small number of destroyer or cruiser sized guns on them (up to the French cruiser sub that has a twin 8 inch gun turret on the deck), aircraft carrying submarines like the I-401, and the British coastal bombardment submarines of the M-class, that were armed with a single pre-dreadnought era 12 inch gun, or later a seaplane. I mean, the gun would suck, have a very limited transverse, and range, but it could be fired at periscope depth (historically) and its still a battleship gun. It also couldn't reload very fast, and not at all under the water. Oddities can be fun, even if they still are mostly only practical as straight up submarines using their torpedoes.

[Psyco Diver]

Given a division of 2 deep submerged Subs with 1 player on the surface acting as a spotter through voice chat could be a real issue. They could really just sail across the map un water and start wreaking havoc from behind

[Ithekro]

Judging by how quickly the oxygen supply runs out, somehow I doubt they could keep it up for long.

[Ithekro]

So I decided to actually start playing this game about a month and a half ago. Since then they've had their 4th Anniversary and the presently the introduction of the Italian Cruisers.

My highest tier ship is the Tier VII American battleship Colorado which I got a day or two ago. I've been progressing down the American, Japanese, and German battleship lines, with Tier VI battleships for Japan and Germany. In addition to this I have progressing down the destroyer lines of these same three nations and have at least some of their Tier V destroyers (So far only have Mutsuki for Japan). However I am only going down the American and Japanese cruiser lines (I didn't care for the German line after Tier III) and have the Japanese Tier V Furataka, and recently got the American Tier VI Dallas (with Pensacola researched, just not purchased at this time). I intend to add the Italian cruiser line once it is fully implemented. Oh and I've so far kept the Japanese Tier V battleship Kongo, as its my highest used ship. I contemplated keeping USS New Mexico since its my highest number of kills ship, but I think USS Colorado may be a suitable replacement. If that doesn't work I can always buy it again later. (I also have the promotional Premium Tier III American cruiser Charleston).

So far its been entertaining. I'd say grindy at times, but I play World of Warcraft...this is easy grindy by comparison, so far. Past Tier VII will require a lot more time, though I am unsure if I want to go to Tier X for all these lines. Some have decent ships earlier that are more fun, plus I'm under the impression that Tier X is expensive for repairs and the like, and there could be times you just can't play you high tier ships due to not being able to afford resupply. I also need to build up my captains more. My Dallas suffers slightly since it only has an 8 point captain at present. Once they get two more skill points I should have the ship in better shape for combat/HE spam.

[Renegade334]

Piece of advice: don't go down the Italian cruiser line juuuust yet, it's rather disappointing in its current state and in need of a buff. The semi-armor piercing shells (SAP) are rather inconsistent compared to what we've seen on the PTS and supertest videos, especially in the mid-tiers and the DPM is not that good, thus forcing you to use AP nearly all the time, except against really thin-skinned ships like destroyers, which, on the other hand, are easily wrecked to oblivion by SAP broadsides. I received, through the free Italian containers, both the T5 Raimundi Montecuccoli and the T6 Trento...and I'm not impressed at all. I don't think I'll be able to get the T7 Zara and T8 Amalfi missions (you have much higher chances of getting those for T5 and T6), which apparently are more palatable, and until the tech line goes live, I'll be stuck with those aforementioned fragile RM cruisers with schizophrenic gunnery. The engine smoke is very gimmicky and has big caveats: it only truly conceals your ship if you're sailing at full speed AND maintain a certain distance from the enemy.

As for T9s, yeah, the only way to break even is either to have really good games or get premium time and have premium camos on. That's why you keep a lot of your T6s-T7-T8s (especially the premiums) in port: until you get a good feel for the T9s-T10s, they will be your actual breadwinners and the ones paying for your high-tier adventures.

In other news, I got both T9s for the Russian cruisers (DM Donskoi) and battleships (Sovetsky Soyuz), which I have long eschewed. I'm taking a short break right now, I'm rather tired of meeting so many Smolenskes in-game, which WG refuses to tone down (at least remove their damn smoke or reduce their fire chance, for crying out loud!).

[Ithekro]

I am presently only going for Genova via the random bundles, since even if I don't get it, I get plenty of credits, coal, and economic signal flags (plus camo). I was going to go for the random cruiser mission via crates, but realized the premium cruiser was pretty much a sure bet, and after I get it, than I can see if I can get another cruiser via crates.

Otherwise I'm more or less getting coal from the two to three crates per day. Saving up for a premium ship. Not sure which to get for coal. Looking at Jean Bart as the likely ship. Have something like 35,000 coal now.

Aside from making sure I get the two daily missions done for the coal and tokens, I can usually get two crates a day. If I have a day off and I do well I can get the third. If I work late, and the teams suck, I'll only get one daily mission done, but will still try for the second crate.

Working on getting the Tier VI Farragut, Fubuki, and Aoba. Stalled a bit on the German destroyer line. I'm just not very good in the T-22, or its not a very good ship. The V-25 is fantastic fun with its bow torpedoes and seat of the pants sailing needed to make it effective. The T-22 can't quite do that when its facing off against....well anything it seems like. Its turrets are nice, as it the rate of fire...but the guns themselves suck. Anymore battleships will take a while since the other two Tier VI battleships cost more than 6 million credits each, as well as a lot of XP...and the Tier VIII North Carolina will cost a lot more of both. As will the tier VII cruiser Helena.

[Renegade334]

I say go for Jean Bart, it's an enjoyable ship, very strong in its own merit (high burst damage thanks to its main battery reload consumable). Only caveat is that due to its armor scheme, it's quite susceptible to HE spam and everybody on the enemy team rocking a cruiser knows it. Aside from that, it's a blast to play. You just need to get used to the AB turret configuration and plan your moves accordingly (since you can't shoot backwards).

Otherwise, there is always the Georgia, which is a North Carolina-Iowa hybrid with 6 guns instead of 9, but sports a whopping 457mm rifle caliber (the highest AP alpha available in-game)...and 11.3km max range (with signal flag, AFT skill and modification module) secondaries. Its engine boost consumable can even make you reach DD-level speeds, which is absolutely hilarious when you are chasing enemy DDs and your preys are within secondary range. That said, it's a squishy ship even when angled, but it's still a fantastic flanker that is good for shoot-and-scoot maneuvers. Oh, and, if you want to spec it for secondaries, you need at the very least a 14pt captain (mine has AFT, BFT and ManSec at the expense of Basics of Survivability and SuperIntendent...though I sometimes swap it with my first-ever 19pt, survivability-oriented Missouri captain).

If you're willing to stick it out a bit longer, there is the Yoshino, but caveat emptor! It's a super big Zao with excellent fire chances and massive HE damage, fitted with 20km torps for standoff strikes, but the armor scheme and long hull will make you eat citadels all day especially if you're caught turning around. Side note: a T9 premium earns more than a regular T9 with perma-camo, whereas a T10 premium earns exactly the same as a regular T10 with perma-camo.

And of course there is the Smolensk, but you'll probably get some hate for choosing it. That thing is just filthy.

[Ithekro]

I've seen vids on Smolensk...just...just what is that turret. That's an AA turret design. And I thought the British had some messed up looking turrets (some of their triple turret designs are off), but this Soviet paper ship? Damn.

Not sure on Georgia vs Jean Bart. I've fought a Georgia in a Colorado once....While I didn't sink it myself, I'm sure my 16 inch guns took a chunk out of him before the islands came between us.

Current highest skilled captain is 11pt (on Colorado). I'm trying to get my Dallas captain up to 10pt so I can actually be an effective fire starter with IFHS. He's at 8pt now.

[Ithekro]

Well I got Farragut. And I will have Genova by the end of the week (its the next bundle and I only need 30 more tokens to get it). Coal is up to 45,000.

[Ithekro]

Well, Part One of the Italian Cruiser thing is almost over. I have Genova. She's not a bad ship, but she's not a great ship either. Sort of good for picking off destroyers.

I've finished the four directives for the event, and am working on completing the last tasks. Due to the Midway film coming out, their is a Mission that gets you access for a day for each of the Tier VIII premium carriers (Kaga and Saipan)...not Enterprise is odd to me since it was the staring ship of the film, but whatever. I've got Kaga for today and tomorrow, but I'm not very good with it (since prior to getting it I've only played ten games in Hoshou). But it might be enough to get the 12,000 base XP for the mission. Also unlocked some 12 day Tier X ships for some clan mission (Montana, Shimakaze, and I think Des Monies) None with captains.

I've researched Nagato (Tier VII Japanese battleship) but cannot afford it yet (short about two million credits). But I have Kaga to help generate credits. I hope to finish the carrier task before the time runs out on Kaga, otherwise I will have to free XP and dump all the credits into Ryuujou to get them done (its only 20 tokens....it be enough for one last crate).

Side Anime note: They reintroduced a collaboration event with the team producing High School Fleet, so that collection is available again for a while. I'll do that since I will get Yamato at some point...might as well have a permanent camo for it when I get it to lower the costly a little. (I have a permanent camo for Bismarck via the Unsinkable Sam event)

Haven't done any of the Halloween Operations nor Twilight Battles. Not sure if they are worth the time.

American Fleet: Colorado, Farragut, Dallas, Charleston.
Japanese Fleet: Kongo, Fuso, Houshou, Aoba, Fubuki
German Fleet: Bayern, T-22, V-25
Italian Fleet: Genova
Still have two free slots.

[Psyco Diver]

Nagato is a good ship but a solid change from the Fuso. Here's a write up I did of her a while back
https://forum.worldofwarships.com/to...review-nagato/

[Renegade334]

Holy crap.

Tier X USS Puerto Rico, which is essentially a four-turreted and thicker-armored Alaska, is actually going to be free, though built (as in, "built inside an in-game shipyard") from the ground up by way of a new collection. This is the first time IIRC that Wargaming is going to give out a T9-10 vessel (the HMS Duke of York, which was a rather paltry KGV, disappointed a lot of people the last time), though I hope they buffed the PR since its previous, lackluster build (poor concealment and worse main battery spread than the Alaska). Definitely going to get this one and it'll allow me to save the coal for something else - either a Thunderer or a Smolensk (I rail a lot against the latter, but my port kind of lacks a higher-tier Soviet premium ATM).

In other news, I'm a bit disappointed in the Dmitri Donskoi. I was expecting to do more consistent damage in it, especially with those flat arcs and IFHE, but...nope. And I seem to be lighting less fires than with the predecessor ships.

[Ithekro]

I wonder how that "build it" will work. Cause I'm up for something like that, should it be basically container collecting and such in stages? Also allows me to continue saving coal for Jean Bart. (at about 20% now). The historical USS Puerto Rico was the unbuilt fifth Alaska-class large cruiser that was cancelled before construction began.

I managed to complete all the directives and mission for the Italian cruisers Part One thanks to Kaga. I had her just long enough to get the 12,000 base XP needed. I moved her commander to Houshou, and put Houshou's two point captain into the reserves (after taking his carrier skills away, I could put him on the second line of destroyers once I decide to buy into that line). I played it terribly though. 16 games, 3 ships sunk. The Tier X battles were basically murder on my planes, and I only had ten games on Houshou prior to getting Kaga, so my bombing and rocket skills are lacking (I've gotten better at torpedo bombing though). For Tier VIII games I tended to be more use to the team spotting the destroyers than anything else. Or harassing priority targets with torpedoes and bombs. But mostly just keeping things spotted so cruisers and others had things to shoot at.

I should be able to purchase Nagato soon, though I suspect I will be mostly working on American ships to get Saipan for a day (I still will be terrible at CV play, but I will have it, and if I can time it, I can use it for the Mediterranean Directives if they have a aircraft carrier mission.) As for Nagato, if its guns are more accurate, I guess I will find out if my aim has been alright, or if I've been relying on 12 gun spreads via Fuso and New Mexico for getting ships sunk. As for angling, if I have a proper single battleship target, I can angle fine (most of the time), but there is always that one buggy 20 km away on the other flank that sees a broadsiding BB and decides you are a tastier target than the cruiser kiting away from it. Or the, surprise, Tirpitz behind an island routine (happens when there are no carriers and the DDs decide they don't want to push a flank, and instead wonder off...or there are no DDs on this flank.)

There is also the problem I've been encountering more of late (or perhaps just noticing it more of late) of no one spotting the DDs and than we get smacked hard by a wall of torpedoes from the unengaged flank. I've been "forced" to chase down DDs in Colorado of all things. And this is with carriers playing. The other problem seems to be that the cruisers just don't engage the DDs half the time. Sometimes I don't, but that usually because whoever was spotting loses him before I can fire more than once, or our DD smokes up and hides, leaving use without any targets to shoot at. Now I will admit that I sometimes will just smoke up and hide if I am in a cap and basically dueling torpedoes from smoke screen to smoke screen with the enemy DDs (I usually only do this if there are two DDs per side in the cap, or if I have a friendly cruiser flanking the screen so we still have stuff spotted), but usually I tend to drop smoke for the cruisers behind me at the cap's edge and then run in front of it, or to the flank so they can at least still see things to shoot at. The Italian cruisers actually seem to be good at helping with this since they can also generate smoke (aside from Genova), and their SAP shells work reasonably well against DDs.

While I'll probably focus on the containers for the new Italian collection to get the unique Italian commander, I am not sure what to put him on (He'll come with a Tier I cruiser, and than I can just work up that line, or just transfer him to Genova) But his skills don't seem suited for heavy cruisers, and his actual ship is the Tier V light cruiser. There is not yet a destroyer line for Italy. Nor sure on that one yet. I might be better to just get credits as all those tokens can net several million credits.

[Renegade334]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

There is also the problem I've been encountering more of late (or perhaps just noticing it more of late) of no one spotting the DDs and than we get smacked hard by a wall of torpedoes from the unengaged flank. I've been "forced" to chase down DDs in Colorado of all things. And this is with carriers playing. The other problem seems to be that the cruisers just don't engage the DDs half the time. Sometimes I don't, but that usually because whoever was spotting loses him before I can fire more than once, or our DD smokes up and hides, leaving use without any targets to shoot at. Now I will admit that I sometimes will just smoke up and hide if I am in a cap and basically dueling torpedoes from smoke screen to smoke screen with the enemy DDs (I usually only do this if there are two DDs per side in the cap, or if I have a friendly cruiser flanking the screen so we still have stuff spotted), but usually I tend to drop smoke for the cruisers behind me at the cap's edge and then run in front of it, or to the flank so they can at least still see things to shoot at. The Italian cruisers actually seem to be good at helping with this since they can also generate smoke (aside from Genova), and their SAP shells work reasonably well against DDs.

There used to be a time where DDs were much more aggressive; I know this makes me sound ol,d but the CV rework, the profusion of radar ships AND the shameless rollout of high-RPM cruisers and destroyers made DD a relatively unappealing class.

The first builds of the CV rework were a nightmare as DDs were being targeted even before they could breach a cap zone - and since CVs now have three successive attack runs at their disposal per wing sortie, the DDs easily stood to lose more than half of their HP within half a minute, if not getting rocket-detonated outright if their luck was really bad. WG tried to alter its plans by reducing the airborne spot radius for DDs and the airplane DPM, but IMHO the damage was already done. They really shot themselves in the foot back then, with multiple design blunders such as the ability to spot the entire enemy team within the first minute of the match, the botched AA rework and the ability, at higher tiers, to essentially spam torpedo drops (the Hakuryu + return key technique, now patched) from afar.

Then WG started to release high-DPM ships like Kitakaze, Harugumo, Friesland, Bayard, Smolensk, Daring and Worcester, all of which made DD time-to-kill rather short. Ships like Yugumo and Shimakaze, which are torpedo boats rather than gunboats, became seriously endangered by such threats.

So...yeah, the current meta is NOT destroyer-friendly and the sad thing is that the appearance of the Regia Marina cruisers will not improve this at all, since their SAP shells are practically designed to mass murder DDs in one or two volleys (until a few months ago, only a few ships like the Atlanta, Worcester, Minotaur and Des Moines could prove that brutal).

In your case, however, it seems you were just saddled with the wrong type of teammates. #shiphappens

...
...And then there's of course the fact that some players are just plain afraid to get wet or aren't the sharpest tool in the shed. This very weekend I had to watch, with blood tears streaming down my cheeks, two teammates incomprehensibly throw a guaranteed victory, the first, an Akizuki, by not escaping an incoming Yamato while his smoke was still up (we had 950 points and rising, for crying out loud! he only had to run and survive!) and the second, a Nürnberg, by abandoning a cap in order to pursue a CV that had relocated God knows where...and the little piece of $#@&%£! even had the gall to call the team "dumb losers" after he got mowed down by British HE because his departure from the cap had allowed the rest of the enemy team to turn back. It was even more frustrating for me, because I had four kills in the Trento (my best kill count in it so far) and I had repeatedly called him through chat to help me cap...and for several minutes we were practically unthreatened, except for that pesky CV.

There is not yet a destroyer line for Italy. Nor sure on that one yet. I might be better to just get credits as all those tokens can net several million credits

There is an Italian premium DD called the Leone that went into supertesting a few months ago and has been MIA since then. Dunno what happened to it, maybe it's being rebalanced with SAP or it's being saved for a future event/sale period, who knows.